Subject: My thoughts
Author:
Posted on: 2017-05-05 13:25:00 UTC
Firstly, thank you, Tomash (and DJ for bringing Tomash to us).
Secondly, I agree with you that we can, and probably should be, more explicit with the consequences. I felt we needed to address the apology as quickly as possible, to reinforce good behavior, but I did not want to speak for the group on what specific consequences should be.
So, I agree with your proposal.
-Phobos
Bram - Yesterday at 2:54 PM
Hey Iximaz. Can I talk to you?
Iximaz Ø - Yesterday at 3:34 PM
I'd rather you not.
Bram - Yesterday at 3:36 PM
I get the feeling that you hate me.
Delta Juliette - Yesterday at 3:38 PM
Bram, please respect the "no" you just received.
Bram - Yesterday at 3:40 PM
I find it a bit rude to snub me without reason.
Delta Juliette - Yesterday at 3:40 PM
They do not want to talk to you. Trying to shame them into changing their mind is not a good thing.
Bram - Yesterday at 3:42 PM
I still find it rude.
Delta Juliette - Yesterday at 3:43 PM
Bram, if you want to continue this conversation in private, we can, but I'd appreciate it if you stopped saying so here.
Because it still reads a lot like you're taking shots at Ix, either intentionally or no.
Bram - Yesterday at 3:50 PM
I am hurt that Iximaz doesn't want to talk to me.
Delta Juliette - Yesterday at 3:51 PM
Bram, please stop.
This is not the appropriate venue for this conversation, as I am explaining in private.
Matt Cipher - Yesterday at 3:52 PM
Put yourself in a reversed situation, mate: If you were offended by somebody (which you previously did, in Iximaz's opinion and that's how she views it now), would you be willing to talk to your offender as if nothing happened betwen the two of you? I don't think so. So please, zip it, and accept the fact that you're not on Iximaz's good list.
Bram - Yesterday at 3:55 PM
I'm trying to figure out what I did wrong and make amends. It's not good to hold a grudge. I welcome people who want to talk about how they offended me.
Matt Cipher - Yesterday at 3:56 PM
But by doing so, you're pushing yourself onto Iximaz, which only deepens the dislike. It sounds very hypocritical coming from me of all people, but sometimes you can't do anything.
Delta Juliette - Yesterday at 3:56 PM
Bram, this is a Warning. Stop.
Iximaz Ø - Yesterday at 3:57 PM
I did not want to talk to you before and I want to talk to you even less after your insistence on it. Stop.
Bram - Today at 2:33 AM
There are also several Discord-specific punishments which I don't know the details of, and general social consequences of bad behaviour (eg, people not willingly talking to you). The latter is not usually explicitly stated.
hS
Ix refused to talk to me earlier.
Iximaz Ø - Today at 2:37 AM
You have been blocked and I am taking this to the Board.
I have undiagnosed autism, diagnosed emotional dysregulation, possible ADD, and a diagnoses that keeps flipping between anxiety and depression. I also get weird attacks where I have absolutely no ability to tell the difference between a good idea and a bad one and I don’t even realize that my judgement is impaired; if the pattern holds, it shouldn’t happen again for a couple of years.
I’m a lot like Julia on Sesame Street. There is nothing to overcome, this is just who I am.
I absolutely do not get connotation. There are positive words and negative words, but I cannot tell the difference. I find it hard to articulate what’s in my head. I see my own writing and judge that the tone is level. Sometimes I read what you’re saying and might pick up condensation where there is none, or completely miss an angry subtext. Sometimes I don’t understand things right away. I tried parroting so that I wouldn’t use any “bad words” but I’ll stop because someone thinks I’m mocking.
I was taught never to say “you’re wrong” or “you hurt me” and I have no clue on how to articulate it tactfully. It’s common for aspies to say something rude or insulting while meaning to be nice. I have never done anything out of malice. In good faith, I ignore a lot of perceived provocations. By the time I mention not liking something, I’m pretty close to a meltdown. If you see lashing out, it’s either unarticulated pain or something completely innocuous that’s perceived with the wrong intent. There is also a bit of anxiety whenever I say, “I don’t like this.” I get flashbacks to bullies who would then do it more because I’ve told them how to get a reaction.
I apologize for trying to talk about how I’m feeling. I didn’t talk to them; this is a new mistake. I don’t have a stim that can soothe it. I have no choice but to bottle up my emotions until I start flailing and screaming at the furniture.
If not saying anything is a god-given right, then why do I keep getting attacked for “maliciously ignoring” people?
Even if I had been in a reasonable state of mind that night, I thought that what I did was not necessarily good, but perfectly acceptable. After all, it was done to me for what felt like months and it didn’t feel like ignoring it or saying how I felt about it was doing anything. No one said anything about it. I dreaded coming here, knowing that you would push me closer to a meltdown. Maybe if I had used the word “stop” you would have.
I’ll be going away for a while.
First, it's brave of you to be so candid about your mental health issues. Talking about stuff like that really isn't easy - it took me several goes to really open up about my anger issues and paranoia on the Board - so you should be praised for bringing it up. However, as others have told me and as I will now tell you, it does not excuse poor behaviour, nor does it free you from the responsibility to take the consequences of your actions. Regardless of whether or not you were taught to say "you hurt me", it is imperative that you do better in recognizing when other people are saying it.
With this in mind, let's talk about some of what you've said.
"If not saying anything is a god-given right, then why do I keep getting attacked for “maliciously ignoring” people?"
Beta readers give their time of their own volition, and the whole point of having them is to talk about your work with them and discuss what can be improved. You did not do this with Ix and Des and Aegis. You just... didn't. From what I've gathered, you dismissed their points out of hand when you weren't getting extremely defensive about such points being made in the first place. This is Not Okay. That is not how you respond to constructive criticism of the sort that is given by beta readers.
Additionally, while I'm certain this was not your intent, your phrasing here makes you sound nothing so much as whiny. Ix was not being malicious; they simply did not want to talk to you, and this desire not to talk to you was compounded by repeated attempts to force yourself into a conversation with them. I understand just how hard the question "Why won't Person X talk to me?" can hurl itself at the walls of one's skull, but just as you have the right to privacy and the right to choose with whom you associate, so do they.
I'm going to say the following very bluntly, and I apologise if doing so causes you any distress; it is merely meant as instructional and in no way is it a rebuke. Ahem:
Nobody owes you their time. You owe nobody your time. That's how this whole song and dance called human interaction works.
Let's take an example from your own experiences as mentioned in this post - an extreme one, admittedly, but the story beats line up, for want of a better term. If one of the bullies from your schooldays showed up in your social media/IRC channel/pigeon fanciers' association AGM or whathaveyou and started demanding that you speak with them, you would be well within your rights to tell them where they could stick it, yes?
The same applies to other people. It always has and it always will. Everyone has a choice whether or not to engage with people, and that choice has to be respected. You are not owed interactions with Ix because you interacted before any more than you can nick a tenner off your best friend because they gave you a tenner in 2006.
So no, what you did was not "perfectly acceptable", nor was it good. What you did was harass someone, demand positive attention from them, and not accept it when they told you no. These behaviours are in breach of the Constitution and you should be brought up on it. However, more than that, you should be given the opportunity to improve and excel. I urge you to take it.
I didn't, back in the day.
Don't be like I used to be.
I'm sorry for trying to talk to you when you didn't feel like it. I won't talk to you again.
I'm glad that you've calmed down and offered this apology. I'm going to accept your apology, as the constitution says we should, but that acceptance always comes with conditions. You have to prove, through your continued actions, that you are sincere.
At the very least that means:
-Don't contact Iximaz again. Pretend that she does not exist.
-If people tell you to stop a behavior...then stop. It's that easy.
-If you feel attacked, don't lash out, stop the conversation and tell someone who can mediate for you. You, by your own admission, may be misreading the situation.
If you cannot do these things, then there will be consequences. That is up to, and including, indefinite banning. I'm not saying this as a threat. I just want to be clear about what is on the line here.
If you have questions about this, post them here and I (or others in the community) will try to answer them. I want us to be on the same page here, and I want to be sure that you understand.
To the rest of the community, if you disagree with how I've handled this, then please speak up. I'm not a dictator, I serve at the pleasure of the community.
If you agree with how this went down, then it is up to you to hold the community to it. We forgive, but we need not forget.
-Phobos
First, to the extent that Bramandin's apology is directed to the community at large, I'm willing to consider it sincere, unless Bram's future actions disprove this. I, and everyone else here, have no power to accept or reject Bramandin's apologies to Iximaz; that power lies with her alone.
Bramandin, I am concerned by some aspects of your apology, which indicate that you have some significant misunderstandings of the norms of neurotypical social interaction. This is entirely understandable, and I do not blame you for it. However, as a fellow aspie, I would like to disagree with your assertion that "There is nothing to overcome, this is just who I am." As others have pointed out, you cannot use who you are as a shield from consequences. Since who you are causes you to have difficulties interacting with others appropriately, if you want to interact with people, you must manage your mental illnesses by learning to interact appropriately with others. This is not going to be quick or easy, and you will almost certainly make mistakes along the way. Despite this, I am confident that you can learn like I did and continue to do. (If you, at some point, want me to try and help you understand something, my email and Discord are open.)
Now, to the community:
The current consensus resolution appears to be "We accept Bramandin's apology. If Bramandin tries to get Iximaz's attention again, we will have a full discussion and vote during which we will be very likely to impose consequences.". I claim this is insufficient, given our (actual or perceived) tendency to abandon discussions and ignore complaints, which make it [appear to be] the case that no consequences will actually be imposed for future offenses.
Therefore, I propose that we make our attitude towards Bramandin's possible future offenses clearer and more concrete for both Iximaz and Bramandin's benefit, as well as our own.
To provide that clarity, I again propose that, if Bramandin contacts Iximaz again, she (Bramandin) shall automatically receive a ban of not less than three months (which will be extendable at the time of the offense), and that this potential automatic ban remain over Bram's head for at least two years.
I believe that the imposition of specific future consequences for a clearly-defined set of future acts is, in this case, necessary, despite the apologies that have been offered. This is due to the severe and repeated nature of the harassment in question, and the fact that it remains unclear to what extent Bram understands (or will in the future understand) the inappropriateness of her actions. I also believe that this consequence would help Bram guide her actions in the future.
In order to make our consensus about how we will act more concrete, I ask everyone who agrees with my proposal (or something similar, or even something more severe) to explicitly indicate this ("+1 (nm)" is fine), and similarly for disagreements.
- Tomash
(I agree with this; I'd like to see the "or else" defined.)
...we will take on Tomash's amendment.
If Bramandin contacts Iximaz then a ban will be enacted. The length of the ban will be determined by a community vote at that time, but will not be less than 3 months.
We are still waiting for Bramandin to acknowledge this message chain, but their acknowledgement is not required to make this binding.
(For the record: Currently 12 people accept the amendment and no one has openly disagreed with it, or my original message. If you do disagree, please feel free to say so here or via my email: baridthetroll(at)gmail(dot)com)
-Phobos
I have received an email on this subject. The person who contacted me agrees with my original wording (consequences up to and including a ban) but not with the Tomash amendment.
Tally currently stands at 12 agree with the Tomash amendment, 1 disagrees with the amendment but agrees with the more open-ended wording in the original proposal.
-Phobos
Not speaking for Iximaz as to whether or not the apology is accepted, for the reasons stated here.
But I'll take this as one more chance for Bramandin, with consequences if she attempts to contact Iximaz again.
If I have time over the weekend I may add to this.
Firstly, thank you, Tomash (and DJ for bringing Tomash to us).
Secondly, I agree with you that we can, and probably should be, more explicit with the consequences. I felt we needed to address the apology as quickly as possible, to reinforce good behavior, but I did not want to speak for the group on what specific consequences should be.
So, I agree with your proposal.
-Phobos
I'd like to be a bit more clear about the consequences, though: repeated harassing of other members absolutely should warrant a banning, IMO, and breaking these rules counts as repeat harassment.
(Thanks for laying down a concrete set of suggestions, Phobos- that was a thing we needed.)
"I agree that we should be considerate of Bram's mental illness, just as we have been considerate of so many others over the years.
However, continuing to harass someone after being clearly informed that the specific things you were doing were unacceptable and needed to stop is not something that should be completely swept under the rug.
Therefore, I propose as follows:
Bramandin may not attempt to speak to or otherwise interact with Iximaz again. In other words, Bramandin shall act as if Iximaz doesn't exist. (This goes both ways. Ix, if Bram keeps trying to talk to you, ignore her and let us know. I know that's probably what you were going to do anyway in that scenario, but it needs to be said for clarity's sake.)
If this prohibition is violated, Bramandin will be subject to an indefinite ban from the PPC that will last at least 3 months."
Can I please get someone from the Discord to corroborate Iximaz's claim that Bramandin went back to the chat to continue this conversation after she had been told, on both Discord and the board, to stop and apologize? I believe Ix, I just want to make sure we're doing this right.
Some time-stamped logs would also be helpful.
-Phobos, taking charge of this situation
She did not continue further and Maslab issued a warning.
I complained multiple times that I was being harassed. I didn’t keep track of if it was one person or many saying the same thing, but my complaints were ignored.
I understand wanting an explanation, but stop demanding it from someone and in the face of clear requests to stop is Not Okay.
Iximaz gave you criticism and you ignored it. We've seen nothing from you indicating you've taken anyone's advice, and you have a history of ignoring concrit from other members. I'd link to it, but I'm on my phone right now.
Just stop hounding Iximaz for an explanation and things will proceed much more smoothly.
--Aegis, hoping the PPC will forgive him for getting a word in from a less-than-ideal situation.
I want explanations for Iximas' behavior, I want a long-winded ramble on why Iximaz really really doesn't want to talk to me beacuse she's just so mean.
Well, tough luck, you aren't entitled to one.
Also, you shouldmtry not to call someone mean so soon after apologising.
You have mental health issues, fine, but they're not a get out of jail free card. You've had it explained multiple times that she dosn't want to talk to you, respect that.
Oh, woops. That's what you get when you don't read post dates.
Here's the thing: Iximaz has explained. They have explained why they don't want to, and will never more, want to talk to you. They're not "being mean." The way you act when talking with Ix makes them feel uncomfortable, extremely so.
The way I remember it, Ix gave very well deserved criticism to one of your missions, and you promptly ignored it. Instead, you took it as a Suethor would: Violently and completely unapologetically (Well, maybe not "Violently," but you get my point).
Adding on too this, you always seemed to drop a mission and just disappear, even when we have repeatedly asked you to take the time to look over the concrit. Now, I know you don't always have internet access, but is it to much to ask to look over who commented on what you previously posted?
Finally, please care to remember that Ix's mind is... how do I put this lightly... in a very dark place right now. They do not deserve this bull[crap] right now, so just give them so space.
With much care, Mattman.
I cannot find any evidence where I responded negatively to Ix's concrit. Maybe you're thinking of someone else?
My mind is in a dark place right now and I do not deserve this bullcrap.
That's why, please, take hS's advice from the closing sentence. It will do all of us, you especially, some good.
((The way I remember it, Ix gave very well deserved criticism to one of your missions, and you promptly ignored it. Instead, you took it as a Suethor would: Violently and completely unapologetically (Well, maybe not "Violently," but you get my point). ))
Can you point to when this happened?
The way Ix talks makes me uncomfortable.
How do I search the board for posts by a specific user?
There's a search bar on the top left of the main Board page. It doesn't show up on the replying pages or if you've clicked on an individual post. I don't know of a way to search and get only posts by a specific user, but if you search the name of the person you will get both posts by them and posts that mention them. It's frequently more helpful, as Aegis somewhat indirectly said, to search for a key word that you think appeared in the posts (or the titles of the posts) you're looking for (such as "Kelly" or "Purim RP" or "Death Star"). Keep them relatively short and you should have success.
There may be a way to use Google search to get posts by a specific user, but I don't know what it is. In addition, there are the Board archives: if you open those and use the Find function (ctrl+F on PC, not sure if it changes for Mac but I'd expect it to be command+F if it is different), you should be able to find everything on the page. The Board archives (or this set of them--I think there's another one that looks a lot like the T-Board? I've lost track of the link, though) can be found here. They currently go through 2016, going by what's on the page. There's also a page on how to use them, which may be helpful--they're basically giant Excel files, and can be a bit difficult to navigate.
Hope that helps.
~Zing
Searching for "Hieronymus" finds some posts made by me, but only posts where I mentioned either Agent Hieronymus or Hieronymus the hermit. That’s one of the reasons why some of us sign our posts in a specific way: while we cannot search for posts we made, we can search for posts we signed (or where others mentioned our signature).
HG
You'll be pleasantly surprised, if the evidence is what you’re looking for. I know I would’ve been if I’d wanted to see the morass I found, or, rather, that Tomash pointed me to so I could actually look at what had happened in the past.
Permission thread from April of last year.
Your main problem here is that you seem to offer excuses for why other people's criticism isn't valid. I'm willing to accept that you didn't understand where they were coming from, but when your writing necessitates an entire thread of discussion regarding what you were thinking, there's usually a problem in your writing.
Also, you accuse both Iximaz and Desdendelle of yelling at you for “taking the prompts literally?” I think they were trying to explain that prompts don’t necessarily dictate the story to a T unless you want them to, but it looks like Huinesoron covered that.
Permission thread from May of last year.
Again, what I'm seeing from you isn't a request for a clarification, but, eventually, repeated protestations that you're incapable of doing what the community asks of you because of extenuating circumstances. These circumstances are understandable, but you can't change the rules for permission or writing missions when one person is inconvenienced by their circumstances. The shared universe has a few standards, and if you can't meet them, either suggest to us a workaround or find a way to meet them. A poor working environment does not excuse publishing poor writing. It seems to me like Des tried to explain this to you, and you either didn't understand or ignored him.
The only thing I can say for you here is that you didn’t openly harass anyone that time, from what I’ve seen.
February. Also of last year..
I'd like to give you credit for understanding what went wrong what I believe is the first time, but from what I've seen, you've repeated this behavior, so let's take the chance to clarify. In this and other threads, you have--within the same thread--requested that Iximaz not talk to you because she makes you uncomfortable, and give you a detailed explanation of what you've done wrong. Several times, you demonstrate a belligerent and downright hostile attitude toward those offering to explain to you what you've done wrong.
Rather than listen to Iximaz when she told you that you were being rude, you were openly hostile, as explained by Iximaz in this post. You responded to it with a comment that implied the entire PPC was somehow biased against you because of a mental disorder, when I’ve dug through these records and watched us give you every possible chance.
And watched you snap at them for it.
And then there’s this. Just. . . this.
This is your explanation for why Iximaz doesn't have to explain anything to you. Tomash has done so. Recently. Iximaz has done so--the whole Board has done so--repeatedly. In this post, Tomash very clearly, calmly, concisely—and many other adjectives ending in -ly that probably break the alliterative chain— lays out exactly what our problems are with your behaviors.
And you busted out caps lock on him for it, shouting that somehow the PPC wasn’t being fair to you.
To the PPC at large: In light of all of these past actions, I stand in favor of the immediate ban of Bramandin. Their apologies have been rendered meaningless by their continued wrongdoing in the face of multiple, clearly stated explanations of exactly what was wrong with what they were doing.
Bramandin is harassing Iximaz, a fellow member of the PPC, for an explanation, when they’ve plainly been given one several times. They’re demanding an apology from someone who tried being considerate, and, in the face of someone who obstinately refuses to actually listen, chose to step away from the conversation.
They provide excuses for their poor work, rather than improving said work’s quality, and either run away from concrit or spew out vitriolic caps lock for it, apparently randomly demanding explanations from those who have made it absolutely clear that they no longer wish to engage with Bramandin--which is actually reasonable, considering her reactions to everyone who has done so.
I think Bramandin is a hostile, toxic PPC member, and I don't think she should be allowed to continue.
It looks an awful lot like you are saying Bramandin should be banned, in part, for being very bad at taking concrit, and for feeling - let's break out that word again - harassed when people keep trying to hit her with the same point that she either disagrees with or doesn't understand. I don't think that is reasonable.
I do not feel that, by and large, anyone has harassed or attacked Bramandin. I won't rule out there being individual posts which do so, but as a rule people have tried to deal with her fairly. Lots of people have gotten frustrated in doing so, per Hieronymus' context post, but that has not become the kind of attack she keeps describing it as.
However, I also am not aware of Bramandin harassing anyone prior to the incident that sparked this thread. She has been very bad at taking concrit, yes. She has lashed out when she feels attacked, yes. But this is the first time I am aware of that she engaged in actual harassment of another person.
Unless I am wrong - unless there is something that does fit that description - I feel the appropriate response is to make it clear what the problem is (which has been done by this thread), make it clear that any further incidents may result in a ban, and give Bramandin one last chance to prove that she can overcome her unspecified mental health issue and function as a member of this community.
As Hieronymus said: when Iximaz's mental health issue led to her flaming the entire PPC, we took that into consideration in our response. This is a very different situation - Bramandin's condition appears to be continuous, where Iximaz's breakdowns are only occasional - but we should have that same consideration.
One more chance. We gave it to Iximaz when she went off her meds, we gave it to July when she snapped after a 20-hour military shift, we give it to Scapegrace every time her self-control lets her down. Give it to Bramandin too. Let her have one last opportunity to surprise us all.
hS
Once again, I should clarify I know almost nothing about what happened originally between Bram and Ixi, back when the latter and Des agreed to be the former's Permission (I think) betas. From all the info I have, whatever happened made Iximaz dislike Bram greatly, to a point that she didn't want to interact with her. That's my view on the past.
I will agree with you, hS, that this is de facto Bram's first major offence. Yes, not taking concrit well shouldn't be considered a reason behind banishment. At the very best, it would result in a 'social ban' - people would simply deny Bram's request, knowing how she deals with critique.
However, I believe this incident shouldn't be resolved without punishment. Yes, second chance could probably be involved, but during the course of this thread Bram remained unapologetic, made a mockery out of every helpful and not violent response, and failed to understand Iximaz's wishes and personal space, continuously pushing her into conversation, then - when it became obvious nobody will take her side in this - she tried to spark the conflict in Discord. Bram doesn't feel in the slightest that she's done something wrong (and I'm not talking about the past incident with Des & Ix, but the current one). Instead, she feels like the victim. The only reason I'm not calling for Bram's ban is because I've done the exact same thing.
So here's my solution to the whole matter:
1. Somebody with full info behind the past incident talks it over to Bram, in private, making sure she understands why she did what she did.
2. Lecture Bram about respecting other people's wishes, and that even if she wants to make amends, they shouldn't cross with those wishes.
3. Have Bram apologize to Iximaz, in the exact form the latter requested.
4. Implement some form of punishment for Bram, but also give her the second chance to be the PPCer after her punishment ends.
And I have to admit, hS, - and forgive me for saying this - but your reasoning here does give off a vibe of sweeping stuff under the rug.
A lot of people in this thread have been requiring apologies from one or more parties. I would like to draw some attention to article five: Apologies for making a mistake, and for being unclear, are recommended, but should not be demanded.
What good is a forced apology, anyway? Does it really feel good to hear an apology that's being made because the other party has to make it? What's it supposed to accomplish?
--Key
If you read the full Article five, the mistake in question would be caused by a misunderstanding (or a cultural dissonance). "Should not be demanded" may not be applicable if something far more serious than a common misunderstanding happened, and the worth of a sincere apology that had been demanded may be that it demonstrates the result of a successful learning process. Of course, I cannot speak for people who actually demanded something; that’s just my guess of what’s going on.
HG
during the course of this thread Bram remained unapologetic, {wasn't ready yet} made a mockery out of every helpful and not violent response, {wrong} and failed to understand Iximaz's wishes and personal space, {yes} continuously pushing her into conversation, {not during the thread} then - when it became obvious nobody will take her side in this - she tried to spark the conflict in Discord. {Very wrong} Bram doesn't feel in the slightest that she's done something wrong {It's sinking in slowly} (and I'm not talking about the past incident with Des & Ix, but the current one). Instead, she feels like the victim. {Yes}
Not everything should've been said like that.
then - when it became obvious nobody will take her side in this - she tried to spark the conflict in Discord. {Very wrong}
Err...
I was not doing it to spark confict. If anything, I was setting out to defuse.
If someone says something that seems offensive, but you’re not sure exactly what they meant, ASK them first, before jumping down their throats.
Either point at where I clearly said Bramandin should be allowed to get away without apologising, or stop placing the worst possible interpretation on my words.
hS
Unless I am wrong - unless there is something that does fit that description - I feel the appropriate response is to make it clear what the problem is (which has been done by this thread), make it clear that any further incidents may result in a ban, and give Bramandin one last chance to prove that she can overcome her unspecified mental health issue and function as a member of this community.
And he mentioned that you give off that vibe, not that you actually said it. In fact, it's possible that he posted before he saw that made it clear that you did expect her to apologize when you said:
I see that I did not explicitly state that functioning as a member of this community would include making amends for this incident. I should have.
The problem is that second chances stop being as valuable after they've been given a fourth time, especially in the absence of an apology or a sign of remorse.
Someone brought up Scapegrace, a situation I'm ridiculously far from expert in, but know something about. I don't think that Scape should be thrown out for having done similar, but that's because I've seen her admit she was wrong, apologize, stick around for the criticism, and work to better herself.
I still do not feel it is reasonable to say that "overcome her unspecified mental health issue and function as a member of this community" should by default be read as "[giving] off a vibe of sweeping stuff under the rug". It can be read that way, yes, which is why I acknowledged that I should have made it clearer. But the PPC Constitution requires people to not assume the worst, but ask first.
I would like to see a copy of the Discord logs for the past hour, please. I am intellectually aware that you (plural) won't have been discussing me behind my back, but I am also feeling emotionally paranoid and would appreciate having the proof to enable me to calm down.
hS
Which now makes my message even more of an attack... Once again, I'm sorry.
It's not worth it, and it was never my intention to provoke or attack you in any sort, mate. Apologies for phrasing my response in a way that made you feel that way.
In all of those examples you listed, you know what the difference was? An apology. Not continued escalation after repeated tellings to step back and attempted anonymous trolling. After meeting resistance on the Board, Bram went to the Discord where she attempted to continue this 'discussion'. She was shut down soon after, but all that I'm seeing is a general consensus that if she goes away on her own an apology isn't necessary.
I have spent the last two days shaking and throwing up from the stress of the situation and now that it looks like the PPC is going to go back to what it loves to do—brush incidents under the rug—I am going back to the hospital and considering calling off the Gathering.
So much for the discussion thread below.
I've already been dealing with other crap to begin with, so I'm not intending to point fingers at Bram and say "See? She's making me go back to the hospital bad bad bad!" This has been a long time coming, I think, it's just that this incident plus how the PPC is shaping up to handle it became the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.
I'll be fine, but I need to leave for a few days until I'm in a better place.
Double-checked just to be on the safe side and they're a crisis-center only, which means my only other option would be the abusive 'wellness center'.
So I'll still be reachable by email or PM but I will be staying off the Board for a few days.
And you are right. There were apologies in all those cases, and Bram has not apologized. What hS is saying is that we need to give Bram a chance to calm down and apologize. He is attempting to keep us from rushing to judgement again.
You can believe me when I tell you that we are not brushing this under the rug. We are doing what the constitution demands, giving the person who is breaking the rules a chance to stop.
That said, those of us who are only on the Board were not aware that Bram had gone back to the chat after falling silent here. We thought she had stopped and might calm down and apologize. It seems we were incorrect, and that likely means we need to talk about other measures.
Iximaz, I know that this is incredibly hard on you. I know that you are stressed out beyond what I can fathom. You may need to take some time off and, if you do, know that we will handle this situation. We are not letting this get forgotten, but we cannot move at lightning speed. We need time to ensure due process.
Please, trust me when I say that we are on top of this. I am on top of this and not letting it get forgotten.
-Phobos
I see that I did not explicitly state that functioning as a member of this community would include making amends for this incident. I should have.
I did make that same point in an email to Iximaz (in response to one I received), where I said:
I feel that the first thing to do is give her that day I offered. It's possible she's having a mentally messed-up day, and will apologise or step it back tomorrow. As you said recently, we extended that courtesy to you, so in fairness we shouls give newer people the same chance.
In the event that she either carries on or tries to ignore it, I thibk it would be appropriate to consider discipliniary actions. Whether that would be a warning or a straight-up ban would be up to the Board; so far as I recall she hasn't been warned for this kind of behavoir before, so the principle of second chances suggests thst option.
But I really do thinj that waiting for her to respond after a day or so - or not respond and prove she's ignoring it - would be the fair way to do things.
Apologies for typos and incoherence; it's eleven at night and my phone-fu is weak.
At this point, I don't feel up to being involved in this discussion any more; I feel like I will just be attacked if I do so. I've got one post Tomash has asked me to relay, but after that, I'm out.
hS
Apologies for looking like I was ignoring what you said, I never saw it to begin with. :l
I'm going to maybe be around until tomorrow evening, but I'm going to try to stay off the Board in general until I get admitted. So. Iximaz out.
Bramandin’s latest missions on the board.
Here, here, here and here you can watch Des, Ix and Tomash trying to help Bram when Bram believed that
a) she had already made sufficiently clear that she had abandoned those stories and
b) that by abandoning them she had also retracted them from PPC canon
It may be noteworthy that November, 15th and November, 30th were the only days between October and February when Bram showed up on the Board and nobody pointed back to her abandoned stories. (Yes, I scrolled through all the pages and took notes.)
Apparently I’m the only person who noticed what was going on, and I regret deeply that I didn’t try to clear this up earlier.
And maybe we can be as considerate of Bramandin’s condition as we are of Iximaz’s?
HG
You are trying to force Iximaz to talk to you. You are treating Iximaz's attention as rightfully yours. It is not. The only person who gets to decide who and what Iximaz has to pay attention to is Iximaz. You do not have that right. If Iximaz does not want to talk to you, you do not have the right to demand that she does.
You have repeatedly accused Iximaz of being rude. Looking back at the chat log, it seems that you view saying she does not want to talk to you as rudeness. That view is not correct. Iximaz's response to you in the Discord was not rude.
You, on the other hand, have directly and repeatedly attacked Iximaz in this thread. Iximaz has not said a word about why she does not want to talk to you; you have posted several paragraphs attacking Iximaz. Iximaz has called you on your disrespect; you have repeatedly called her rude and, in this post, mean.
You have attacked Iximaz; Iximaz has not attacked you. You have demanded Iximaz's attention; Iximaz has just asked to be left alone. You have tried to manipulate the rules to allow you to attack Iximaz without repercussion; Iximaz has, again, just asked you to stop talking to her.
Step back. Take a day. Think about why everyone is saying you're in the wrong.
hS
I was too shy to speak up before, but when Iximaz and Desdendell were trying to “help” me with my characters, all they did was scream at me and make me feel stupid for asking for help. Then they told July that I had given them trouble. Ix even said that I was being snippy when I was just telling her that I already knew that. I’m pretty sure that one of them started the rumor that I was difficult to work with.
Iximaz took other jabs at me. Saying I disregarded their advice and then not being able to say what that advice was. The irritating part is when Iximaz would say something like ‘I’m not commenting on this because I can’t trust myself to be impartial.’
I was just trying to open communication with Iximaz, but they wouldn’t even clarify if ‘I don’t want to talk to you’ meant “I don’t feel like talking to anyone right now” or “go die in a fire you piece of garbage.” I’m inclined to believe the latter and it’s rude. The mediator couldn’t even give a straight answer.
Simply because my memories of the whole incident are rather foggy and it's not the current subject of the matter. Instead, let me just run through your last sentence:
"I was just trying to open communication with Iximaz"
Which she made clear that she wishes not to participate in. Unless you understand the words "I'd rather" as a suggestion, and not a definite conversation finisher.
"but they wouldn’t even clarify if (...)"
Iximaz had no obligations to explain herself to you. You are inclined to believe whatever you wish, but the messages were as clear as it can possibly be: I have no desire of making amends with you, leave me be.
"The mediator couldn’t even give a straight answer."
I don't know what you and DJ talked about, but I know DJ enough that I believe her explanations weren't much different from what the people has stated here.
I will repeat myself once again: You did something, whatever it was, that made Iximaz feel uncomfortable with you. Uncomfortable enough to not wanting to talk things over. And yet, you keep on pushing, and pushing, and pushing, when she made more than enough claims that she doesn't want to make amends with you. At the very best, when her negative emotions are over, she will ignore you and both of you can live their separate paths, not sparking any more conflicts.
Please, get this finally into your head: You are not on Iximaz's good list. And after this little show, you will never be. Nothing you can do about it.
This also ends my hypocrisy.
I asked you to leave me alone. Multiple other people have told you to do the same. You did not listen.
I asked you to apologize without ranting. You failed to do so.
I had no desire to talk to you before, and I will never have a desire to talk to you again, especially after your continued, blatant disrespect for me.
Irrelevant.
I asked you to talk to me. You did not listen.
You wanted me to apologize without ranting. I did so. That should not mean that I shouldn't be asked for my point of view.
I have no desire to see you angry at me for no reason. You're free to leave, especially after your continued, blantant disrespect for me.
I have asked Iximaz to step back from the conversation, and they have agreed to do so. I have advised them to keep you blocked on Discord as well, at least for the time being.
If you have questions regarding conduct on the Discord channel, feel free to PM me. My interests lie in the channel being a safe, productive place for all Boarders.
No explanations for her behavior, no long-winded ramble on why she really really wants to talk to me but I'm just so mean. Just seven words: I'm sorry. I won't do that again.
I want her to after that not talk to me again. Ever.
The last time something similar to this happened was with GlarnBoudin and that turned out just spectacularly.
hS, I'm sorry if I'm coming off as hostile right now, but your reaction is just enforcing my suspicions why nobody bothers to report this stuff in the first place. I wanted to nip this in the bud before it became an ongoing problem and the initial response, to me, looked like "I don't care."
I'm sorry. I won't do that again.
All it took was a simple apology and you felt the need to exacerbate things. This is not okay.
I have told you multiple times that you were being rude.
You're not allowed to talk back to me.
Last time I've checked nobody deemed you the governing body of the Board, declaring who can do what. And if it's one of your ridiculous ways of trying to get your side of the story seen (which, honestly, at this point is more of a cheap comedy than actual arguments), then I, by the power given to me by nobody, declare that you're not allowed to talk to Iximaz.
Checkmate, you persistent stooge.
Bram is disrespecting Iximaz's wishes, and in my mind they are completely unapologetic and unaware of the fact that they've done (and are doing) something wrong. Worst of all, they are making a comedy spectacle out of it, and at this point I see no possibility of them actually trying to grasp the situation. Personally, I am this close to calling a disciplinary procedure on them.
Iximaz was disrespection Bram's wishes.
My understanding right now is I can be rude to someone and then just say "I don't want to talk to you" to get out of being confronted?
Because either you're still not getting it, or decided now to play coy and make a mockery of us trying to explain it to you.
Once upon a time, you did something that felt wrong for Iximaz. Whatever you did, and whether or not it was brought up by the community (and I believe it was, since I vaguely recall there being a discussion), is not the current concern. We're not discussing your actions in the past, we're not discussing what it was that made Iximaz dislike you. We're not looking for explanation of your actions from the past.
Time has passed, emotions died down, but still remained. You ask Iximaz whether or not you can talk about it (which, at this point is evident to me that would end badly, since you clearly still have no idea what you did). She said "I'd rather you not", which is not a vague information of 'maybe we can talk'. It's a signal that says, "Please, leave me be. I don't want to have the whole matter blow up again." And yet, instead of getting that signal, you continue to ask her for conversation she doesn't want to attend. What in this whole exchange is so unclear?
I really hope you're gonna get it this time, and I didn't spend the last half an hour trying to be as clear and polite as possible.
But if you're going to once again mock this reply, and continue making all of this a joke, then so help me God in Heavens I give up on trying to help you.
That's why, once I did notice, I made very sure to make my position clear.
For future reference, since this has come up before: I do not use genuine questions as a way to dismiss something. I sometimes use sarcastic/rhetorical ones to do so, but never actual questions that need an answer.
I support your request for an apology precisely as written.
hS
... I wasn't a) saying that not talking to people is connected to the Discord, b) saying that not talking to people is something that shouldn't happen, or c) saying that outright telling someone you don't want to talk to them is against the rules.
Can someone clarify the timeline here? There's a half-hour gap between Bramandin's first comment and Iximaz's reply; was there other (unrelated) conversation in there, or just a silent Discord? And did Bramandin do or say anything in the 11-odd hours you jump over at the end of the transcript? I'd really like to know what they posted the quote of me in response to, if anything, because I can't make head nor tail of why it came up.
hS
There was nothing in the break in the first quote; discord was silent for half an hour, as sometimes happens in the off hours. Ix's response was the immediate first reply, and conventionally appropriate for picking up a conversation that's gone quiet.
And as others have said, Bram participated in a few unrelated conversations in the hours before the final exchange, but the last comment was completely out of the blue. There had been a brief silly discussion of sports a couple hours before, someone showed up and got greeted at ten-plus-change, and then Bram commented at eleven thirty.
She spoke a few times in the unquoted hours, but the quotes weren't relevant to her harassing Ix for an explanation.
What's the difference between this and Matt Cipher's attempt to be inclusive of JulyFlame, which both you and Iximaz supported? Is it that less time has passed since whatever incident/s led to Iximaz not wanting to talk to Bramandin? Or that this was Bramandin specifically addressing Iximaz, rather than a general message? Or something else?
This is a serious question, not a veiled attack of any kind. I am trying to understand all the context, including the broader mindsets of the people involved.
hS
Thanks for extending me the opportunity to clarify.
In this case, it's the fact that Matt Cipher's post was a general message, which, to me—and I think to Iximaz, though obviously I can't speak for her—is an important distinction.
I didn't see Matt Cipher as specifically addressing JulyFlame, but as addressing the females of the PPC, of which JulyFlame is a member.
I'd like to think that if a similar situation occurred, wherein Bramandin made a post similar to Matt Cipher's which included Iximaz's, we'd have had the same conversation with Ix if she'd decided to take the issue personally.
In this case, Bramandin demanded an explanation from Iximaz despite repeated requests from Iximaz not to do so.
I thought it was wrong when Matt Cipher pursued JulyFlame for an explanation. The confusion, I think, arises from the fact that I also thought JulyFlame was wrong for taking an expression of goodwill that happened to include her as a personal attack.
In this case, Bramandin isn't extending goodwill toward anyone of the gender Ix is a member of, but— however unintentionally —hounding Ix for an explanation of a perceived negative opinion, real or imagined, and in the face of very clear requests to stop. To go back to the example of JulyFlame and Matt Cipher, Bramandin is doing something very similar to Iximaz, and the prevailing opinion was that it was wrong then. I think it still is.
--Aegis, hoping that cleared things up slightly more than it muddied them.
Part of the reason I asked is that I have no idea what the general consensus was when (as you put it) "Matt Cipher pursued JulyFlame for an explanation". My memories of that incident are mostly from emails, so I don't recall what happened on the Board (and don't know what was said on the Discord).
As I've just said to Iximaz, I think Bramandin is seriously in the wrong here. I'm not sure what they should be required to do, since in the previous incident, JulyFlame specifically and emphatically didn't want to hear anything from Matt Cipher, including apologies - so the instinctive "Bramandin needs to apologise now!" reaction may be a misfire.
At the very least, they need to commit to not talking to Iximaz.
hS
At least Matt didn't turn immediately hostile after he was told to apologize.
And for the record, this was Bram's follow-up.
Iximaz Ø - Today at 2:37 AM
You have been blocked and I am taking this to the Board.
Also, @Moderator.
1 BLOCKED MESSAGE
Bram - Today at 2:39 AM
It is your bad behavior.
I'm going to bed now. Probably won't be on the Board or Discord for a few days.
I should've said that before asking this follow-up question; I'm sorry for not doing so, and hope that the order I said things in hasn't given you the wrong impression.
hS
This happened, without significant other context- Bram showed up and dove into this conversation as logged.
Bram, I said this on the Discord and I'll say it here too: your continuing attempts to engage Iximaz in conversation are rapidly turning into harassment, and are very definitely Not Cool. I've offered to mediate, please respect that process (or talk with me about a different mediation process, if you dislike it) and talk with me rather than continuing to chase Ix.