Subject: ... Why not have them be demons from the relevant cultures? (nm)
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Posted on: 2016-10-30 01:24:00 UTC
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A little project. by
on 2016-10-28 16:03:00 UTC
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Guess who.
hS -
A little more. by
on 2016-10-29 17:32:00 UTC
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First up, a link to the uncensored version of the Fellowship image, featuring a sketch map of 'Middle-earth'.
Secondly:
(I considered playing Guess Who Too with this, but... didn't. ^_^)
Eowyn and Eomer are modelled on the Serrano people of southern California (ie, Rohan). They wear yucca skirts/aprons, which seems somewhat uncomfortable. They also wear their hair long... because of plot requirements. (Or maybe Eowyn is just particularly flat-chested? Tolkien doesn't really specify.)
Galadriel, meanwhile, is fully-clothed in Noldorin garb from over the Sea. She's Mongolian, actually, which is hilarious in light of Tolkien's description of Orcs: in fact degraded and repulsive versions of the (to Europeans) least lovely Mongol-types. Her robe is embroidered in characteristic Noldorin fashion.
As is Elrond's, though he hails from a different cultural tradition. He's wearing Sindarin clothing, AKA Tlingit (Pacific Northwest, venturing up into Alaska/Beleriand). It's closely related to the Hobbits' garb, which explains why Bilbo and friends feel so comfortable in Rivendell. The main differences are the wool fringes, and - as stated - the Noldorin embroidery to mark the other part of his cultural heritage.
Oh, and the hat. He has a basket-hat.
I've also thumbnailed in a couple of locations. The Last Homely House is a traditional Tlingit plank house: large, with a central fireplace and opening above it, with paintings and carvings on the front. (You can just about make out the Star of Feanor on there, and a pair of swan wings for... wow, about half a dozen things.) It would seem out-of-place and otherworldly in eastern Idaho, where Rivendell was.
As for Lorien... well, Mongols live in yurts. And yurts have big round holes in the middle. And the tallest trees in the western US are redwoods. So yeah, in Mesoamericarda, mallorns are golden redwoods, with houses built around their bases.
At this point I either venture up to Beleriand, start repeating costumes (eg do Denethor, Thorin - I guess Lake-Town would be new?), or delve into the tricky question of Orcs andeviltragically misunderstood people. :-/ Decisions...
hS -
*squee* (nm) by
on 2016-10-29 05:21:00 UTC
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I have SO MANY feelings about this. by
on 2016-10-28 18:55:00 UTC
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It's essentially my LotR-geek self at war with my Native History geek-self, but I think they mostly agree that this is awesome - I've had the same thought a handful of times, to be honest. I know Tolkien intended it to be England, but wow does that ever not work at all in light of the Columbian Exchange. So I'm gonna have to take some time to read this theory more carefully and craft a more detailed response.
In the meantime- :D
(With one caveat - the Americas were not, in fact, settled via the Bering Strait land bridge; those timelines worked for archaeologists back hen we thought settlement was 10-12 thousand years, but now we know it's more likely to be about 30 thousand, and there's no way there was an ice-free corridor at that time.) -
Think of it like this: by
on 2016-10-28 19:37:00 UTC
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Mesoamericarda is as accurate to American paleohistory as Standard Arda is to European. :D
I didn't know the timeline for American settlement had been pushed back, and I'm intrigued. What's the current method for them getting there?
(If you say 'submarines' I'm going to laugh so hard.)
hS -
Not submarines exactlyÂ… by
on 2016-10-28 22:15:00 UTC
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But right now, "boats and island-hopping" is actually the most common answer. Depending, of course, on who you ask. But basically, archaeologists have so many sites for indigenous occupancy that go back to . . . I think the most well-established site is 17K, but it's pretty far south, to the extent that it would've required a very intentional fast march south from Beringia, which strains belief rather a lot. The 30K date is somewhat contested, especially in conservative circles, but it's a solid bet- others are making claims for 50,000 or more.
Anyway - yes, that is my instinct. It makes me happy to see someone taking non-Western European cultures seriously in fantasy, even if the details get a bit mushed. And this feels a lot more respectful (with the caveat, of course, that I am white and so my voice shouldn't count for THAT much) than . . . well, anything coming out of Ilvermorny. Or most of the things that come up in fantasy as cameos or "savagery" contrasts. -
Mesoamericarda Nine Walkers, perchance? (nm) by
on 2016-10-28 17:26:00 UTC
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Dingdingding! We have a winner. ^_^ (nm) by
on 2016-10-28 18:16:00 UTC
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Native North American Wizards? by
on 2016-10-28 16:10:00 UTC
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Love the pointy hat.
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Ooh, not quite. by
on 2016-10-28 16:39:00 UTC
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But the wizard isn't a native North American, and the native North Americans aren't wizards.
Keep on guessing. ^_^
hS -
Well, see by
on 2016-10-28 16:54:00 UTC
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There are nine, Gimli is recognizable, and the heights and matching clothes among people of the same group (not to mention the wizard) makes it fairly clear that this is the Fellowship of the Ring :) I can't quite think of how you got to this version of them, though--is it an attempt to slot them into recognizable Earth history? Or maybe you were inspired by the Bakshi movie but want the character design choices to make more sense? Do enlighten us :)
~DF -
Welcome to Mesoamericarda. by
on 2016-10-28 18:40:00 UTC
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Some time ago I crafted a theory that Middle-earth was not, in fact, prehistoric Europe - it was prehistoric America. Instantly, a whole heap of things dropped into place - the presence of potatoes, the fact that Hawaii is clearly the remains of Numenor, the way North America was settled over an ice bridge just like Beleriand. I scribbled a few maps, invented some discussion threads, and left it there.
And now I've un-left it. I've indulged in some creative historical anachronism here - Tolkien said 6000 years, but we don't know what people wore in the American Archaic era (other than 'clothes'), so I've cribbed from slightly-pre-Columbian cultures. I have, however, taken pains to make them accurate to the areas the Walkers came from.
The top row starts with an empty space (where my map is - we're using the Colorado model, Mesoamericarda scholars), and then we have Frodo and Sam. They're both in Chinook clothes; Frodo has a tunic/robe thing because he's higher status. They both have some bulky jewellery, notably bracelets (plus a certain Ring).
Next is Boromir, who's Mohave. Gondor is the only agricultural civilisation outside the Shire, which, actually, do you remember anyone else having farms? Because I don't. Anyway, Boz is heavily tattooed, with a rabbit-skin cloak and feather hairpiece to symbolise his high status. He also has a turquoise necklace, which is the only thing on here that's accurate to the period.
Then Gandalf. Gandalf is Tibetan (did you know China has three main ethnic groups? One lives in the mountains and is religious, one lives in the north, and one is the most numerous. Hi, Vanyar, Noldor, and Teleri!), which happens to mean I can put him in a pointy felt hat (held on by his braid). The robe folds down over the belt to make a huge pocket - perfect for his pipe.
Dropping down to the second row, we start with Legolas. He's a hybrid - the Silvan elves live in Crow territory, so he wears his hair long and puts it in a bun. But their origin is far away, on the shores of Cuivienen - that is to say, in western Louisiana. His dominant culture is Natchez, which means he gets a glorious feathered mantle. (Also a blowpipe. Because blowpipe.)
Then Gimli. Gimli is pure Cheyenne, from his buffalo-hide cloak to his war shield and (stone) axe. He has traces of a war bonnet - which is apparently the term for those big feathered headpieces - but that was a bit too blatant for me to go all-in.
Then Merry and Pippin, who are Chinook like the other hobbits. Note that all four also have flattened foreheads - apparently that's a thing.
Finally, Aragorn, our second cultural mashup. He's mostly Paiute, with its love of fringes and feather decoration (and ponchos!). But he's also the Heir of Isildur, and wears a turquoise mosaic necklace and hair-feather ornament (handily recalling the Crown of Gondor with its swan-wings). The sword he carries is the reforged obsidian blade Anduril, naturally.
(The fall of Arnor makes a lot more sense when you realise the bulk of its territory is the Great Basin - Nevada and Utah. How're your hunter-gatherer kingdoms going to survive when there's nothing to hunt or gather...?)
Am I a crackpot? Of course I am! But the more I work on the theory, the more I find myself thinking 'hey, this is kind of plausible...' ^_~
hS
PS: I guess next I have to work out what to do with orcs. And Rohan, where they didn't wear tops. Um... I think Eowyn needs long hair? ~hS -
Orcs = Carib. by
on 2016-10-28 19:03:00 UTC
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They're in roughly the right place, especially if we take the "Gulf of Mexico is sort of the Sea of Nurnen" model, they were hunters, and they were renowned for their ritualistic cannibalism in our time - indeed, the word "cannibal" derives from a borked Spanish pronunciation of "Carib". This seems to fit with the idea of orcs in the books.
Also, what does this make the Mound Builder culture? Valar? Maiar? Distant ancestors of the Woses whose civilization fell in grand and bombastic fashion during events Tolkien neglected to mention? We just don't know. -
In fact, I have an idea. by
on 2016-10-29 01:53:00 UTC
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However, I'm loath to share it for the same reason Tolkien was weirded out by orcs - an "evil race" doesn't work. And it feels dehumanizing to associate any group with something like the orcs. So I don't know exactly how you'd get around that.
That said, there were several groups who were widely feared for their ferocity in battle. The Toltecs (ancestors in some sense of the Aztecs) were one. And they pledged their allegiance to a king in a hard-to-reach city, so there's that. I'm still not sold on that though.
So, two potential solutions. You could flip the image of "savagery" on its head and make Europeans (Vikings, even - they came earlier than most) the orcs, which is problematic for all its own special reasons, OR you could do what Tolkien did and invent them, with American Indigenous cultural markings instead of European ones. -
Yeah, I think invention is the way to go. by
on 2016-10-29 11:07:00 UTC
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But that still asks the question of what their cultural markings would be based on.
Currently I'm looking at the Apache. They were resident in Mordor at one point, but also have origins in the far north, just like the orcs. They wore leather armour, too, which is distinct and different.
So I think I'll try for a fantasy race, based if possible on some manner of Native hobgoblin, wearing Apache-esque dress. All taking place 5000 years before the Apache moved south anyway.
Though I do like the notion of Neolithic European Orcs, too. :D
HS -
... Why not have them be demons from the relevant cultures? (nm) by
on 2016-10-30 01:24:00 UTC
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Yrch! by
on 2016-10-30 16:05:00 UTC
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Our Orcish friend here is based on the Atasaya, a demon-creature of the Zuni people, in New Mexico (approximately = Mordor). It doesn't seem to be a religious figure or anything - it's basically a troll.
The orc has most of the features of the Atasaya - long straggly hair (which it pushes back with its bloodstained flint knife, making a red 'eye' on its forehead - very apt!), bulging yellow eyes, tusks, scales on its arms, horned knuckles... the main thing it lacks is the whole 'being gigantic' aspect. Honestly this should really be a troll, but Wikipedia's list of Native American Demons is only nine articles long. ;)
Its clothes are vaguely Apache, but honestly pretty generic: breechcloth and some sort of armour (leather or plant fibre), and a headband. The Eye is designed to look less European, more Native; I don't know how well that worked.
I've also sketched up Frodo (or Sam) in Orc gear. He can probably pass in the dark, provided you don't look too close - which is about accurate for the canon.
And Bag-end, there in the thumbnail. It's a Chinook winter house - a pit with a wood/grass roof over it. I've buried this one slightly into the side of the hill, which is an adaptation to using it as a permanent structure; it probably does extend out the back by this time, because more space is always welcome.
If anyone knows any better demons, I'd love to make a better Orc; this can be repurposed as a troll just by extending the scales.
hS -
That... is actually a good idea. by
on 2016-10-30 09:21:00 UTC
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The one problem I foresee is that Rowling did exactly the same thing, and is reviled for it. So, uh... anyone know about Native American demonesque figures who I can safely draw inspiration from? VixenMage?
hS -
And one more... by
on 2016-11-06 04:51:00 UTC
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It may seem off, but wooly mammoths for either dragons or Balrogs. There are in fact Algonquin stories about this massive greedy animal, whose description perfectly matches the mammoth, who takes up so much water and food that nothing else (game, especially) can live in its territory, followed by the way a clever hero managed to destroy it by weakening and sharpening the trunks of the trees it used to rub against.
So, giant, greedy, dangerous, and destroyed by valiant and clever hero… sounds a lot like a Balrog to me! -
The (admittedly minor) problem with that... by
on 2016-11-06 23:11:00 UTC
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Is that mammoths are taking the place of horses in the setting. Because it's awesome, that's why. =]
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Oh, but mammoth!Glaurung is tempting. by
on 2016-11-07 15:51:00 UTC
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[Checks; double-checks]
:D And we can have both. The great woolly dragons of the old North - Beleriand is somewhere in Alaska, the details aren't quite fixed yet - are gone by the third age, except for isolated hold-outs like Smaug. The smaller mearas of Valinorean extraction aren't particularly closely related (and are probably mastodons, rather than Columbian mammoths) - it's possible that Morgoth twisted mearas into dragons, he has to have based them on something. And the lesser breeds of horse are... probably horses, since they actually post-date the mammoth species.
This does invoke the idea of flying, fire-spitting mammoths (perhaps from the trunk) - sort of Fallout: Dumbo or something. But I'm noooot inclined to argue against that, honestly.
hS -
Oh! Also evidence shows they did often get trapped in caves! (nm by
on 2016-11-06 04:53:00 UTC
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Right! So! by
on 2016-11-02 17:58:00 UTC
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(As this thread continued, I went home for a weekend and was blasted with commitments on my return. Hence the lack of response. But I got to see Delta Juliette, so that was fun!)
Two things on Rowling. One, she removed the figures she took from their context, which many Native people feels robs them of meaning. Two, she took figures from Native mythology, but few to no Native people. That's kind of a slap in the face.
Now, as to the Yrch - on the one hand, it's definitely a better idea than designating a given people as orcs. On the other hand, I think you're very much stuck with the Southwest as inspiration - those "evil goblin/bad creatures will get you" aren't really big anywhere else, and evil is a different thing there than it is in Europe. Essentially, Tolkien's Catholicism shines through every aspect of his storytelling, and it's hard to find an indigenous mythos that's analogous to that. So it would be complicated. The Southwest nations certainly have the closest parallels, though - and for that matter, you could use Naagloshi for Nazgul or Balrogs or the like. (I mean, except that everyone goes for skinwalkers, so there's that.)
One other nitpick - I'd replace Anduril with a war club. You really can't reforge obsidian, and making large blades with it is rather impractical. It's basically glass, and heat treating it just turns it into ...some other stone that I've forgotten. It's soft and opaque, though. War clubs, on the other hand, could be used repeatedly and were a very important weapon at least in the North - Iroquois and Algonquin peoples used them to great effect even in the Seven Years' War, if I recall correctly. -
I missed replying to this. by
on 2016-11-07 16:03:00 UTC
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Rowling: yeah, the lack of actual Natives bothered me, too (which is why my anti-propaganda stories usually included them).
Orcs: I don't want to touch skinwalkers with a barge pole, frankly, all things considered. ;) I think the orc I did is as good as it gets for South-west Evil Goblins, but is there another possibility? Can we come up with something that still fits the text of the book - willing to fight against humans, and not very fond of them either - but without having to be Necessarily Evil? Mesoamericarda is based on the conceit that Tolkien's notes are his translation efforts - LotR, Hobbit and Silm are 'finished', but any other notes may be mistranslated or speculative. So we don't know where orcs come from, not for sure...
Anduril: the key thing about Anduril is that it's not a local weapon. It's Numenorean, from the volcanic chain around Hawai'i. It also vastly predates the first recorded settlements on Hawai'i - of course it does! Numenor sank, the Hawaiian chain is just the rubble. So obsidian is perfectly viable (and the fact that the Black Numenoreans in central America used it is a big point in its favour).
As Scapegrace says, the scenario is less reforging than rebuilding. The precision technology to fix obsidian perfectly in wood isn't going to be common in the American Archaic: any old Arnorian could bodge a couple of the obsidian-shards of Narsil into a working axe or something, but it takes Elvish craft to remake the true, original blade. War clubs, or something like them, are probably the more commonplace weapon, and likely what Merry used against the Witch-King. (In fact, I think I gave Boromir one...)
hS -
Wrt macahuitl!Anduril: by
on 2016-11-02 19:48:00 UTC
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From what I remember of the prop design from the movie, the break in the blade was largely central from where Sauron stamped on it. It therefore makes sense to have the Mesoamericarda version to simply have the wooden core snapped to splinters, with a single piece of obsidian hacking Sauron's finger off. It also means that the design can be rebuilt by the elves - worked metal wasn't really around much back then, but intricately carved wood? I can see that. Plus it feels more like something an elf would do. =]
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As far as Anduril... by
on 2016-11-07 04:26:00 UTC
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Why not use a Macuahuitl as the base. It may not fit geographically though. But you get both wood and obsidian out of it. And the Macauhuitl was an absolutely vicious and effective weapon. Easily able to decapitate a man or a horse, if I recall properly.
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*am not implying VixenMage is Native American demon. (nm) by
on 2016-10-30 09:22:00 UTC
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That's . . . uh, problematic, a lot. by
on 2016-10-28 22:04:00 UTC
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Partly because the accounts of Caribs as cannibals are questionable (at the very least, to what extent).
As to the Mound-Builders, ie. the early Mississippian chiefdoms (now known as Chickasaw, Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Occaneechi, Shawnee, and several more) - I don't know that they'd be "distant ancestors" so much as in the moment. They were still living around and adding to the mound complexes when the second wave of Spanish conquistadores made landfall. (Hernando de Soto was pretty clear about where they lived.)
