Can I ask what your timeframe on this is?

Subject: Can I ask what your timeframe on this is?
Author: Scapegrace
Posted on: 2018-12-12 19:16:00 UTC

BC if this is during the 41st Millennium, then the Tau seem like the perfect allies for the Independent faction. The rigidity of Tau castes and their ideas of "a place for everyone and everyone in their place" seems like a very good fit with the organizational philosophy of the Legions, and it also gives them a serious amount of additional firepower. Consider: Terminator armour with Battlesuit mods and weapon systems, and vice versa.

~~also the standard longarm of the independent legions would then prolly be the burst cannon instead of the bolter and that is some serious upgunning right there~~

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Heresy Rewritten - 40k Theorycrafting by Phobos on 2018-12-11 19:12:00 UTC Reply

Warning: The following contains spoilers for the Horus Heresy series of Warhammer 40k novels. If you have not read these novels, go do that. You're only about 50 books behind and should be able to catch up in… 2324-ish? Anyway, you have now been warned and advised, so if you are reading this, I assume you are either caught up or don't care. Either way, on with the show.

So, here's the story for you: When Nesh started reading the Horus Heresy novels she was kind of confused as to how Horus ended up turning against the Emperor. Horus was, as everyone kept saying, the best of the Primarchs. He was everything you could ever want in a leader. But, he was sucker punched by Chaos. Nesh thought that it would be better if Horus were to realize that not only did Chaos suck, but the Emperor was also not that great. He would then break away and form a third faction. This would allow Horus to continue being awesome.

That is not a bad idea on its face, but there is a serious problem: If Horus breaks away, he doesn't form a third faction. He forms a second faction, which will be full of the same malcontents that he drew to his banner in the first place. It changes the course of the timeline, but leads to a very similar place.

But the idea of a third faction that doesn’t support Chaos or the Emperor is a good one. We just need someone else to be the catalyst, and we need it to happen late enough that the Chaos-aligned faction has time to form. First off, we should figure out who is likely to be in which factions. Let's look at the candidates, in numerical order.

Lion El'Johnson - Loyalist, but shady as anything. So many secrets that it wouldn't surprise me if he broke away. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Fulgrim - Chaos-aligned, and massively so. I think it is unlikely that he would turn far enough from that to break out.

Perturabo - Traitor, but not particularly Chaos-aligned. He has grievances with the Emperor and many of his brothers. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Jaghatai - Loyalist, but no one would have put money on that to begin with. He is known for being unknowable. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Leman Russ - Loyalist in the extreme. He is the Emperor's Executioner and is always on his Father's side.

Dorn - Loyal as you can get. Never questions his Father, ever. Not sure he has the imagination to question him.

Kurze - Traitor, but maybe not as evil as he seems at first…? He actively tries to get his brothers to see things as he sees them. He has logical reasons for what he does, even if you disagree with his methods. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Sanguinius - Loyalist, but full of doubts. He sees himself as having defects that the Emperor wouldn't have made purposefully, and he fears the hand of Chaos in his creation. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Ferrus - Loyalist. He violently turns against his closest brother when that brother goes Traitor, so I think he is likely to remain loyal.

Angron - Traitor. Angron has major issues with the Emperor, who he feels is a slaver and a tyrant. He doesn't particularly care about Chaos, he just wants to hit things. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Guilliman - Loyalist… or is he? He did start his own Imperium that one time, so maybe not as loyal as he appears at first glance? Possible candidate to go Independent.

Mortarion - Traitor, but not thrilled about it. He has major issues with both sides of the war. Namely, the fact that both sides are so ready to employ psychic abilities. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Magnus - Traitor, but not by choice. Magnus broke the Edict of Nikea to try and save the Imperium, knowing full well what might happen because of his actions. He was forced out of the Imperium for his loyalty. Possible candidate to go Independent.

Horus - Traitor, because of shenanigans. He was the most loyal. He then became the least loyal once the Ruinous Powers got to him. No going back at this point.

Lorgar - Traitor. He was the first one who wanted to go to the warp. He dove in head first and never looked back.

Vulkan - Loyal. He loves his family. Wants to build bridges, not trenches.

Corvus - Loyal, but mopey. He doesn't seem to have much personality or imagination. I sometimes forget he's there, which is kind of his point, I guess.

Alpharius - Traitor? Probably, but who really knows with these guys. You could tell me that the Alpha Legion backstabbed anyone on this list and I would believe you without question. Possible candidate to go Independent, by default.

So, we have a list. What do we do with it? Do we pick our favorite Potential-Independant Primarch and go from there? Maybe. Or you could do what I did. I let this question stew in the back of my mind for months, reading further books, getting a better picture of the Primarchs. Eventually, during a conversation over breakfast, I had a breakthrough.

Our perfect candidate is Konrad Curze. Now, I know what you're thinking: Curze is a homicidal madman who loves nothing more than to make people suffer. And you're right. However, I would say he is also Batman. He cares deeply about justice, but goes outside the law to dispense it. If that can be tempered, he could be a force for change in the Imperium. The question becomes, how do we temper his more vicious nature?

My theory is that he becomes more and more violent because he has a Cassandra complex. He sees possible futures, but only the worst ones. He tries to tell people, they don't believe him, he becomes more frustrated and angry. He lashes out, creating those terrible futures, to prove to everyone that he is right. They see him as little better than an animal because of the things he does, but never even consider why he does them.

So, what happens if someone believes him? It might look something like this:

Curze-Faction Timeline

Kahraatan - Curze debates Vulkan. Curze says the only way to control the Imperium is through fear; Vulkan says that law will be enough. Curze says he and Vulkan are the same; Vulkan says they couldn't be more different. In the Primeline, they fight and both leave hating the other, with Vulkan reporting the incident back to Dorn and Horus.

In the Curze-line, Curze shares with Vulkan his view that the Emperor is not good; that he is a tyrant and manipulator. Vulkan, being generally open-minded, can see Curze's point about the Imperium-at-large, but cannot let that excuse Curze's indiscriminate killing of anyone who might be evil. This marks a shift in thinking for both Primarchs, somewhat moderating Curze's tactics and changing how Vulkan views the Emperor and the Imperium.

Cheraut - Curze, having confided in Vulkan about the visions that plague him, does not turn to Fulgrim as he did in the Primeline. This prevents Fulgrim from telling Dorn, thereby preventing the confrontation that eventually leads to the destruction of Nostramo by the Night Lords. Nostramo is, rather, put harshly back in line. The guilty are killed, and the society re-ordered, again.

The Angel - Curze, at Vulkan's insistence, reaches out to Sanguinius. They have much in common, including visions of the future. Both see the darkness coming, and determine to stop it. This leads Curze, Sanguinius, and Vulkan to form a secret alliance.

Nikea - The trial of Magnus the Red goes as poorly in this timeline as it did in the Prime-line. Magnus makes for his flagship to go back to Prospero when he is stopped by Sanguinius. The Angel is upset by the whole affair, and knows that his brother is devastated. He offers Magnus council and aid, and hints at the existence of the alliance. Magnus thanks him, but leaves for Prospero all the same.

Davin and Prospero - Horus is wounded and placed in the temple on Davin, opening him to the possibility of Chaos. Magnus, projecting himself from Prospero, attempts to stop his brother from turning to the dark side. He ultimately fails to sway Horus. Upon returning to Prospero, Magnus considers his options and, rather than try to contact the Emperor directly, projects himself to Sanguinius. Sanguinius believes Magnus, for he and Curze have both seen Horus's fate in their visions. Sanguinius tells Magnus about the alliance, and the future that they seek to subvert. Because Magnus never goes to Terra, the Wolves are never sent to Prospero.

Isstvan V - Horus is in open rebellion with the Death Guard, Emperor's Children, and World Eaters behind him. The fleets of the Iron Hands, Raven Guard, Salamanders, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, and Space Wolves are sent to bring him to heel.

After Horus sends word to the hidden Traitor Legions, Curze has a word with Perturabo. Curze approaches his brother as one outsider to another, tells Perturabo that he understands the problems the Lord of Iron has with the Imperium, but that there is another way. Curze wants to see the Iron Warriors become what they were meant to be: not digging trenches, but building marvels. All Perturabo has to do is follow Curze's lead when the time is right.

As the ships of the Retribution Fleet come to Isstvan V and prepare to drop troops, Curze reveals the plot to the wider fleet. Their brothers will turn on them and the Imperium will be in jeopardy. Curze will not play his part and his fleet makes to leave the Isstvan system. Vulkan and Perturabo follow suit, leaving the Word Bearers and Alpha Legion to risk the wrath of three Loyal Legions in the void. The Iron Hands, Raven Guard, and Space Wolves retreat from the system before the four planet-bound Traitor Legions can join the battle in orbit.

Chondax - As the White Scars finish their campaign against the Orks at Chondax, the veil of silence that had blanketed their fleet lifts. They receive reports of Horus turning traitor, of Horus calling for their aid, and of the Trial at Nikea. Unable to determine what is true and what is false, the Khan turns his fleet toward Prospero to get answers from Magnus, with whom he had a surprisingly strong bond. He arrives to find the Blood Angels fleet already in orbit, having never followed orders to go to the Signus Cluster. Jaghatai meets with Sanguinius and Magnus, bringing the three champions of the Librarius together again. They tell him what has transpired and he agrees to join their cause.

The course the war will take from this point remains to be seen. Calth still happens, but will Lorgar and Angron still launch the full Shadow Crusade against Ultramar? Will the Warrior Lodges of the White Scars declare for Horus or remain hidden? There are too many unknowns for one person to contemplate. However, some things are clear:

- Magnus never destroyed the Eternities Gate, so the Emperor does not need to guard it at all times. The Emperor is still in play in this timeline, at least initially

- Ferrus Manus doesn't die at Isstvan. His grudge against Fulgrim lives on.

- Related to the last point, Fulgrim's ascension is now in question. Killing Ferrus gave the daemon in him power enough to take over in the first place. Draining the life from Perturabo fueled his physical transformation. Does any of that still happen? Does he find another way?

- The Shattered Legions are all whole. This means that each of the three factions has six fully capable Legions

- The Thousand Sons are still beholden to Tzeentch and the flesh change. That will have to be reckoned with, one way or another.

- The Loyalists have the Emperor. The Traitors have the Ruinous Powers. Who do the Independents have? An alliance with the Eldar? The Cabal? Someone Else?

We've broken the Legions into three equal factions. Interestingly, these factions all have some things in common. Let's list the Legions in each faction, look at the role they fill in their group, and see what those similarities are.

Loyalists

I. Dark Angels - SWAT, Specialized Wings

VI. Space Wolves - Shock Troops

VII. Imperial Fists - Siegecraft

X. Iron Hands - Specialists, Tech

XIII. Ultramarines - All-Around

XIX. Raven Guard - Recon

Independants

IV. Iron Warriors - Siegecraft

V. White Scars - Recon

VIII. Night Lords - Shock Troops

IX. Blood Angels - All-Around

XV. Thousand Sons - Specialists, Psyker

XVIII. Salamanders - SWAT, Flamers Non-Optional

Chaos

III. Emperor’s Children - SWAT, Noise Marines

XII. World Eaters - Shock Troops

XIV. Death Guard - Siegecraft

XVI. Sons of Horus - All-Around

XVII. Word Bearers - Specialists, Warp

XX. Alpha Legion - Recon

As you can see, each faction has one Legion for each of six roles. Some are better at their roles than others, obviously. For example, the White Scars are the least effective of the three Recon Legions, but they're Rangers, which is a whole different kind of recon than you get from the Rogues that are the Alpha Legion and Raven Guard.

The two roles that need some explaining are SWAT and Specialist. Those are roles that are variable. SWAT is, of course, Special Weapons And Tactics. These three Legions are known for their non-standard weapon loadouts and unusual tactics. Specialists are known for being completely unique in some way. Almost any Legion can have psykers, but only the Thousand Sons have really gone all-in on the idea. The Iron Hands use archaeotech from the Dark Age of Technology that other Legions won't touch. The Word Bearers will touch all sorts of unsavory things that none of the other Legions will.

So, not only is each faction more or less equal in power, they are also balanced strategically. There is nothing that is going to set one faction above the others, with the possible exception of the lack of a god-like figure behind the Independents.

So, what do you think of the Curze-line Heresy? Is it a viable alternative? Is there something I'm missing that makes it untenable? Do you think it would play out differently than I've outlined? Would you build a third faction around a different Primarch?

-Phobos

Tangentially related recommendation by the Irish Samurai on 2018-12-25 19:31:00 UTC Reply

I've never read the Horus Heresy series, although I have heard good things about it. I have read a bunch of the other Black Library stuff, and the one I enjoyed the most was the Eisenhorn trilogy. It was interesting to watch the character develop as the books went on, as he became more and more willing to take risks to get the job done.

I can't really say much more about it, because it's been so long since I last read the books - I just have a lingering impression of a well developed character and his changing priorities as he progressed through his journey.

-Irish
I just hope this doesn't turn into Space Marine Power Hour. by 61516, Horus Heresy skeptic on 2018-12-13 23:24:00 UTC Reply

Alternate Heresy timelines seem to spend most of their time on the Astartes, when there's a far bigger universe out there getting changed. For example, how would the Imperial Army develop? The Guard partly became what it is in m41-42 because of the massive shortage of marines after the Heresy. If the factions were split into thirds, they would all need a rapid influx of troops, so each faction might develop quite large forces of non-augmented soldiers. Thoughts?

It's always Space Marine Power Hour! by Neshomeh on 2018-12-13 23:43:00 UTC Reply

They have the power, see.

But seriously, here's something that bugs me: There always seem to be enough humans to make more Space Marines, more Adepts, more astropaths and navigators, more servitors, and to fill out the army, the bureaucracy, and basically every other job that requires a body with a working brain and a pulse. This is despite normal humans being cannon fodder that are regularly slaughtered in the millions and even billions. What exactly IS the population of the galaxy, anyway? How many inhabited worlds are there? (What about after the latest Exterminatus?) What's the birth rate—not to mention the infant mortality rate, which I'm betting is pretty high most places because this is a Crapsack Universe full of Crapsack Worlds with a very few bright spots that tend to be merely dingy gray at best, plus the fact that any fetus that dares to be born with an extra toe or a harelip is probably euthanized immediately.

Has anyone tried to do the math on this? How much will it hurt my brain?

~Neshomeh does not math.

Too many "if"s, but here goes by SATV-26S Athena on 2018-12-14 02:01:00 UTC Reply

The Imperium controls a million worlds. Assuming that's 2/3rds of all the worlds in the galaxy, and assuming every single one of those worlds are as inhabited as Earth is today (some have more, some have less) we have a grand number of *drum rolls*

9.78 billions of Humans. It is stated that the Orks outnumber all of Humanity.

But trying to assign hard numbers and math to this setting is an exercise in futility. The writers just pick numbers that look big and cool disregarding what's realistic.

Me no good at math by SATV-26S Athena on 2018-12-14 05:45:00 UTC Reply

Me forget six zeroes.

9.78 quadrillions of Humans. That's 9780 followed by 12 zeroes.

Me go break rock with face.

My brain can't comprehend that number! {= D by Neshomeh on 2018-12-15 14:14:00 UTC Reply

So my next question is, was humanity ever really in danger of being wiped out? Clearly we have the reproductive capacity to rebound from anything short of the eventual heat-death of the universe. What exactly are we so afraid of? ^_^

~Neshomeh

Well, I'm no 40K expert, by Badger421 on 2018-12-15 21:26:00 UTC Reply

But I always interpreted it as more of a battle for the human race's future than its survival. It'd probably be pretty difficult for humans to go completely extinct, but the Imperium is much more fragile. With so much manpower and industry required just to maintain the status quo, I can't imagine any collection of smaller empires being able to stand up to the threats of the galaxy. So if the Imperium falls, humanity may not die out altogether, but they'll be pretty much helpless to stop the Orks warring wherever they want, the Dark Eldar raiding as they please, and Chaos spreading unchecked. It would just be a slow and bloody backward slide from spacefaring society to scattered pockets of planetary resistance. At least until the Tyranids straight up eat the whole galaxy.

Of course my entire understanding of 40K come from spending far too much time on Lexicanum, so I could be entirely wrong here.

But now Chaos is less of a threat. by 61516 on 2018-12-15 23:42:00 UTC Reply

At only a third of the manpower it has in the main setting, the Indeps and the Imperium can both focus more of their resources to fighting other threats. Remember, the Imperium is at a third of its canon numbers for space marines, but its massive infrastructure is still largely in place. The Imperial Army could be expanded very quickly, and the Adeptus Mechanicus could still provide plenty of equipment. Perhaps the Sisters of Battle could be created to make up for lost Astartes?

The Sororitas by SATV-26S Athena on 2018-12-15 23:52:00 UTC Reply

If canon keeps treating them the way they've been doing so far, I wouldn't trust them with anything.

Hey, their gonna be back in plastic come 2019. by 61516, Thorian on 2018-12-15 23:56:00 UTC Reply

They'll probably get some victories in their codex. Also, didn't Saint Celestine do some cool stuff in the 13th Black Crusade?

Sure hope so by SATV-26S Athena on 2018-12-16 00:58:00 UTC Reply

Because all I remember them doing in their codex is losing in Sanctuary 101 (even if they did win the rematch), losing during the Bloodtide, and some other bad things.

As for Celestine, she's remembered for losing against Abbadon when she and Creed jumped him.

Also all those special Sororitas characters whose only role during the 13th Black Crusade was dying.

Yeah, WG has not been kind to the Sisters.

It's all been down hill since the Age of Apostasy. by 61516 on 2018-12-16 01:07:00 UTC Reply

But maybe this timeline can fix that.

They're, not their (nm) by 61516, maker of common spelling mistakes on 2018-12-15 23:58:00 UTC Reply

That sounds like a more plausible number. (nm) by 61516 on 2018-12-15 00:27:00 UTC Reply

On Mortarion: by Grundleplith on 2018-12-12 14:09:00 UTC Reply

He had to be tricked into joining Chaos. I'd say he joins the third faction due to his hatred of all things Warp.

Yeah, but... by Neshomeh on 2018-12-12 17:28:00 UTC Reply

The Independents have all three founding members of the Librarius. I don't think he'd be too happy on their side, either.

~Neshomeh

Fair point, maybe the Death Guard stayed loyal? by Grundleplith on 2018-12-13 23:19:00 UTC Reply

A couple ways this could happen, in my view:
First of all, no matter what, we'd have to get Typhon out of the picture as early as possible. If he died during the Crusade that would be incredibly convenient. For the sake of argument, let's say he did. Then, Garro would in all likelihood replace him as First Captain. Assuming he could get his Primarch's ear before the machinations of Horus and the now-silenced Typhon really start setting in, he could very well sway Mortarion back to the light of the Emperor just as Typhon nudged him away. This would have to happen around...mid-Crusade?<br>If Mortarion had the inclination to allow Horus to *believe* his manipulation was working, he could easily set himself up to silence the rebellion before it got rolling. Assuming he didn't tell the Emperor of Horus's plans either through ignorance--he never learned of them in the first place until the last minute because Horus smelled a rat--or because he wasn't sure whose side he was really on--he could probably cripple the Traitors' fleet from within their own ranks...granted, at the likely cost of most, if not all, of his Legion. Even if that weren't possible because he never entered the Isstvan system (Horus probably ordered him to a fair distance away as he did with some of the other Legions to prevent their intervention until the end of the rebellion), the Imperium would benefit greatly from the presence of a loyalist XIV Legion. Of course, *then* they might end up at the Dropsite Massacre as the first wave...

A more plausible variation is that things go as they do in the Prime-line, with the exception that a more plot-savvy Typhon recognizes the unreliability of a braggart like Grulgor and decides to teleport to the Eisenstein himself to make sure Garro is dead. He either defeats the Battle-Captain and ensures the Emperor doesn't learn of the Heresy until it's too late...or Garro proves to be the better fighter and escapes the Isstvan system easily after slaying Typhon. Regardless, the majority of the Death Guard would remain under the banner of the Warmaster, but the real difference is that they never end up being corrupted by Nurgle. They'd be more like canonical Night Lords by M41--renegades, yes, but trusting themselves and shunning the Warp whenever possible.

Most interesting by SATV-26S Athena on 2018-12-12 00:57:00 UTC Reply

Not having Magnus contact the Emperor means the Webway Project remains viable and not full of Tzeentchian daemons. That gives the Emperor a massive advantage.
Also, having the Emperor live to see that is huge. Having all those sons fall to Chaos should teach him humility and he will be a better father to his sons.

With that wisdom borne from regret, he would reach out to the Independent faction. They wouldn't remain Independent for long.

I'm going to throw out possible outcomes for non-Astartes factions.

Inquisition - still exists, but it's drastically different and more effective than its Prime-line counterpart.

Ecclesiarchy - doesn't exist. The Emperor insists on not being worshipped like a god. It helps that it becomes public that the Lectitio Divinitatus was written by Lorgar. I don't know if several forces related to the Ecclesiarchy (specifically the Sisters of Battle) will exist regardless, as the whole Goge Vandire and the Age of Apostasy events won't happen.

AdMech - under the Emperor's guidance, the Men of Iron debacle doesn't happen. Therefore, and with more of the Imperium not being ravaged by the Heresy as it was in Prime-line to support their activities, technological progress and STC finding is much faster. True AI constructs are still rare but they're harder to corrupt.

Imperial Guard - knowing that the Emperor is still alive and fighting at their side should prove a major morale boost. The Great Crusade should begin anew and more worlds join the Imperium.

Tyranids - the Pharos debacle doesn't happen so they aren't called in. That's a HUGE thing the Imperium doesn't have to fight.

Orks - the Beast WAAAGH! still happens but it's much better managed, with the Emperor and the Primarchs running things instead of a bunch of incompetent High Lords. Damages and casualties are still severe but not nearly as much as Prime-line demanded. Ullanor is destroyed and spoilers regarding that planet and a certain Ork never happen. The Ork threat beyond that becomes a lot more manageable to the Imperium.

Eldar (of all flavors) - they're still around, and they're still a threat. The Emperor might try to strike deals with them, citing Chaos as the common enemy, but the Eldar will either refuse, citing all those Traitor Legions boosting the Chaotic forces, or reluctanctly agree to the Emperor's deals. If there's any sort of alliance, it will be on shaky grounds and both sides will have detractors.
The Dark Eldar and Harlequins will of course not care. Nothing the Imperium can do will stop Slaanesh's predation on their souls or the Great Dance.

Tau - they're an interesting case. With an Imperium more open to diplomacy instead of "shoot first, shoot second and keep shooting" something good might come of this. Best case scenario, they're accepted amongst the Imperium as some abhuman species. Worst case scenario, Damocles happens but it's much better managed and without HF Behemoth to recall all those Imperium forces the Tau are completely destroyed.

Necrons - as with the Eldar, some deals might be struck with the Imperium with Chaos as the greater enemy. Likewise, they're still a threat.
I worry about Magnus. by Huinesoron on 2018-12-11 21:33:00 UTC Reply

You have him in the third faction, and I think your way of getting him there works, but... by overthrowing the Edict of Nikea, you let the Thousand Sons fall deeper and deeper into psk-craft and the Warp. And the Warp is dangerous. Sooner or later, Magnus is going to touch something that's too much for him to handle, and he's going to be consumed.

If what takes him is of Chaos, and if it's canny enough to not immediately go full Lovecraft, what you end up with is an effective Traitor Legion inside the third faction. If you believe that the Alpha Legion are in some sense still Imperial loyalists, or at least anti-Chaos, two of your three factions have a canker in their hearts. That promises to be an absolute nightmare to sort out.

Second question: it seems moderately likely that the Ruinstorm will still happen (it started at Calth, after all). But with the Emperor and the Astronomican still fully in play, will it be as effective? And even if it is - the Emperor has a functioning Webway portal. If he can learn to navigate it fast enough, he has the ability to drop his loyal legions pretty much anywhere.

Once again, things look pretty bad for the Independents. I think you're right that they need a leg up, but from who? The Cabal wouldn't go for it, I think - they're too tied up with 'humanity must die'. The Eldar... possible. It would lead to a War for the Webway, which means less attention being paid to Horus' faction. That's probably a bad thing, though if there's a reconciliation later (say, after the Indys lose the Thousand Sons to Chaos, and realise this is The Biggest Problem), dropping five legions out of the Webway on top of Horus would make quite a splash.

Who else? Well... if Magnus doesn't fall into Chaos, he seems likely to keep researching, and poking around psyk-active locations. He'd probably go after the Pharos, which means conflict with the Ultramarines. And... is there anything psyker about the Necron?

Come to think of it, it was Magnus who was in favour of learning from Xenos cultures in general, wasn't it? Yeah, I can totally see him poking about in Necron tombs and attempting to Warp-craft himself an 'alliance' with them.

I think that's my answer: the Indys, in rejecting the Emperor, also reject his fear of all things xenos. If the Loyalists represent Humanity, and the Traitors represent Chaos, then the Indys represent Everyone Else. They will use Xenos tech, everything they can get their hands on. And like everything else in 40K, it will come back to bite them, hard.

hS

You raise excellent points by Phobos on 2018-12-11 22:49:00 UTC Reply

Your first concern is, I feel, mitigated somewhat by the other members of the Independents. The Khan and Sanguinius both preach restraint on the topic of psycher abilities. Curze and Sanguinius are also turning their powered up eyes toward the future, which may lead to stronger warnings for Magnus.

However, if the Thousand Sons and Alpha Legion are cankers in their alliances, then the Dark Angels are, as well. Nothing in the Curze-line stops the schism in the Dark Angels. So I think there is balance there.

The start of the Ruin Storm was Calth, but it took a full Shadow Crusade to make it the threat that it became. So it will likely be a localized phenomenon unless Lorgar figures out how to power it up.

The Webway might be what finally pushes the Eldar to take a side. If the Emperor can drop a Legion anywhere, then he can drop them into the heart of the Craftworlds.

Interesting point, though, if the Pharos doesn't work out like it does in the Primeline, then potentially the Tyranids never show up. They were originally drawn to this galaxy by the events in the novel "Pharos".

-Phobos

I think a lot turns on the Thousand Sons. by Neshomeh on 2018-12-12 17:20:00 UTC Reply

This might be because they're the Legion I've been actively trying to understand the most (can't imagine why!), but consider:

Of the Legions the Chaos Gods most fear, the Thousand Sons are one, and the Space Wolves are the other; Chaos would have loved for them to wipe each other out at Prospero. Since that doesn't happen, both Legions are still in play, and at full strength.

So, the Indys have what is possibly the most potent weapon against the powers of the Warp on their side. If the rest of the Librarius can reinforce Ahriman's doctrine of "Marines first, psykers second" and impose some restraint on them, that's a force of extremely powerful and disciplined psykers ready and willing to kick in the teeth of anything Chaos-related that comes at them.

Furthermore, Magnus knows about the Webway—he discovered a way into it on Aghoru, well before Nikaea. Not as much as the Emperor, but enough to give the Indys a leg-up on dealing with it when it becomes a problem, especially if the Eldar are on board, too. I think that's likely, since the Eldar did try several times to warn the Imperium about what was coming. If their overtures to Vulkan still happen, there's a chance he actually listens and tells the others about it.

The problem is the fact that Magnus already made a deal with Tzeentch to stave off the Flesh Change, and Tzeentch will call in that debt at some point. Assuming Magnus refuses to give up his soul or those of his sons to Chaos, since he isn't pushed to the literal breaking point here, the Legion is in trouble again—but I'm thinking it might just be possible to actually do something about it in the Curzeline. Ahriman's efforts to stop the Flesh Change are doomed in the Primeline for myriad reasons, but supposing he and Magnus actually work together, with help from the rest of the Librarius, and maybe the Eldar? Maybe there's a way to make it work.

Or, worst-case scenario, some version of the Rubric still happens and most of the Legion ends up as automata. They're still a potent force to be reckoned with.

... Actually, a worster-case scenario might be they have to do what the Emperor's Children originally did to "fix" their own gene-seed problem and cull everyone who's affected. This is a terrible plan that I don't think Magnus (or Ahriman, or the other captains) would ever go for, but OTOH, if everyone else decides that's the only way the faction survives, you've got Curze and probably Perturabo, perfectly willing to wield the axe.

I'm out of time to go further, but another thing Phobos and I started talking about last night: What about the Mechanicum? How does that shake out?

~Neshomeh

On stopping the Flesh-Change by Thoth on 2018-12-12 22:36:00 UTC Reply

So, can it be done? As Nesh presents, yes, it's possible that Magnus and Ahriman might manage it.

However, there are other options: a popular choice is soulbonding Magnus &c to the Emperor, the same way Navigators work, and turning them into Blind Psychic Monks. This is the route taken by Dornian Heresy, and a number of other Loyalist!Sons AUs. Conceptually, it's... pretty awesome. But if the TS go independent, it's obviously non-viable.

Another choice is to try and get the Eldar to help, although I dunno enough about them to know what they'd do.

And finally, they could try to stick it out. The Flesh-Change can be resisted. It's just extremely hard, and takes immense force of will.

All of these are interesting choices, although I dunno how well any one of them would work.

I mean... by Huinesoron on 2018-12-13 11:40:00 UTC Reply

... or they could fail, and fall.

I understand the impulse to go with 'six legions actually playing nice with others would make things better', but the truth of the 40K galaxy is that attempting to do the right thing often makes things worse. Magnus is a prime example of that: he cares about other cultures, builds a bright city of learning, and attempts to warn his father about the Heresy - and look how it turns out for him.

Look at who's in Team Indy:

-Conrad Kurze, probably insane, with the Night Lords made up of a bunch of violent criminals who delight in slaughter.

-Magnus the Red, who has already made one deal with the Chaos Gods, and the Thousand Sons, prime fodder for any warp creature looking to claim an unwary psyker.

-Jaghatai Khan and the White Scars. They seem nice! They also seem like they'd inevitably fall out with the Night Lords.

-Perturabo, who Lexicanum describes with words like brutal, vicious, unforgiving, and envious, and the Iron Warriors, who love to merge themselves with technology, because that never goes badly, right? It's not like there's a Schism of Mars fed by corruption through technological means or anything? Also: what happens when they meet the Necron?

-Sanguinius, who is deeply prone to trusting both the Emperor and Horus, and the Blood Angels, who are prone to losing control and attempting to drink the blood of their enemies. They're moderately nice, but with the Night Lords and Iron Warriors, we've got three utterly brutal legions matched up against the Scars and Sons.

-Vulkan, who's likely to join Magnus and Perturabo in the whole 'quest for xenos tech' obsession, and the Salamanders. Again, they seem nice! They might have some weird interactions with the Iron Warriors, though - the master crafters allied with the self-augmentation experts?

What I'm seeing here is an alliance riddled with fault lines. Think of how quickly the Chaos legions started to fall apart, from each other and even internally. The Loyalists hung more or less together because they all looked up to the Emperor - but this lot have no such leader. History would suggest that Sanguinius would wind up in charge (everybody loves him, after all), but he seems likely to start agitating for reconciliation with the Emperor, and how would Kurze or the psykers take that? Not well, I'm thinking.

This is a fascinating timeline, but let's not fool ourselves into thinking things will go particularly well. This is still 40K, after all.

hS

Butwhytho? by Neshomeh on 2018-12-13 14:21:00 UTC Reply

I mean, yes, in the grim darkness of the far future etc...

But why, though? Serious question. Let's look at it.

You've got two major agendas in play: that of Chaos, and that of the Emperor. Chaos is inscrutable, but broadly simple: as long as we're all acting on our worst natures, demons get fed and the gods get stronger. Yay grimdark.

The Emperor is also inscrutable, and his plan is for the survival of the human species, which is a rather more complex matter given the above—there's a reason the Cabal thought it would be best just to wipe us all out, after all. Chaos loves us. Yet, the Emperor thinks he can preserve us and possibly even wipe out Chaos itself.

How's that working out? If you ask Phobos, he'll tell you that everything is going according to plan. The Emperor foresaw everything his sons foresaw and more, and he's set the board so intricately that the dominoes have been falling as he intended without anyone having the slightest clue (which is also part of the plan). This is the razor's edge we walk to eventually get to a place of victory. If that's the case, then any changes to the sequence of events create a failed timeline.

But there's an equally strong possibility that's not the case. That the Emperor made mistakes, things have not gone as planned, and we're struggling along under the delusion that there's still hope. If we go with that assumption, then why would it not be possible that doing things differently could go better?

(Yes, this is me saying "the rules suck let's make new ones" in one of these threads again. I'm realizing this might be something of a personality flaw...)

~Neshomeh

... people think the Emperor planned this? by Huinesoron on 2018-12-13 14:51:00 UTC Reply

Huh. I've been operating on the assumption that it's all an uncontrolled shambles: that the Emperor's plan was basically 'unify humanity and get rid of everything else', and he's been bolting bits onto that as new problems came up. Evil gods in the warp? Try and bodge together a new transport system so we can just ignore them. One of the kids playing tickle-the-dragon with said warp? Ban psykers, and sort out the nuances later. Horus and his buddies have gone over to the other side? Send a massive fleet to squash them, quick!

These aren't the actions of someone with A Plan, they're the actions of someone with a goal who is fighting an actively malicious universe to try and achieve it.

And the trouble is that Chaos loves, well, chaos. What could be more chaotic than half of the legions fighting the other half? Ooh, I know - how about a three-way war between three evenly matched factions! You don't think Khorne is going to be salivating at the prospect? That Tzeentch isn't going to be giggling with glee at the opportunities for betrayal?

Yes, you could get a better outcome. But to get to it, you have to face and somehow overcome the threat of Chaos, and history has shown that pushing up against Chaos, even with the best intentions, leads to corruption. From Tzeentch's perspective, he's already pulled off a massive coup in this timeline - instead of six legions joining Chaos while the other twelve remain loyal, the anti-Chaos faction has been split in two, and is fighting amongst itself! What could be better?

There are paths to victory for humanity. One would be to allow the Indys time to build up their psyker and xenos tech-base, while the Emperor goes back to the genetic engineering drawing board (maybe we can get some early Primaris Marines?), and then forge common cause between the two groups and throw the whole lot - twelve legions, twelve Primarchs, every trick and gadget they've collected, and the Emperer himself - straight into the Eye of Terror. Could the God-Emperor of Mankind take a Chaos God out in single combat? What would happen if he tried?

Another, darker path would be for the Indys to find something out there in the xenos cultures. The Cabal thinks the death of humanity would take Chaos with it, and the Eldar managed to create a whole new Chaos God by their actions. What if you can perform some xenocidal atrocities and hit Chaos in that way? The Eldar Craftworlds are apparently building up a battery of souls to combat Slaanesh; what if we killed all the Eldar, and used Necron tech to wire a bunch of other xenos races into the wraithbone matrix too?

Or... if the Indys can access the Webway, they have a direct path into the Palace. What if they, rather than Horus, go up against the Emperor - with the intent of capturing him, but with the actual result of killing him? Horus managed to nearly do the job; the Night Haunter, Crimson King, Great Khan, and Perturabo together should be able to pull it off. (I'm assuming they wouldn't tell Sanguinius, and Vulkan seems the sort to stay out of it). What happens then, with no Emperor and the Indys in control of Terra?

I've never been able to say 'they would solve that problem and things would be better'. I always want to know how they solve it, what would go wrong in the doing, and how the timeline would skew further as a result.

hS

The Theory of the Omniscient Emperor by Phobos on 2018-12-13 22:48:00 UTC Reply

As a believer in the Omniscience of the Emperor, Beloved By All, let me see if I can enlighten you.

The Emperor protects, but not from Spoilers. Stop reading if you want to avoid them.

First off, you are right. The actions of the Emperor do seem to be the actions of someone with a goal, rather than a plan. He makes a ton of unforced errors during the Crusade and I'd like to look at a few of those now.

Monarchia - Lorgar Aurelian, the Bearer of the Word, has created a paradise in the city of Monarchia. The people live their lives in service to the God-Emperor and his angels. Then the Ultramarines show up and blow it to hell. Why? Because the Emperor demanded that it should be so. The end result of this is the Word Bearers kneeling in the dust of a dead city, the Ultramarines standing over them, and the Emperor taking his most loyal son to task. This would lead to Lorgar seeking out other Powers in the galaxy, and his eventual fall to Chaos.

Magnus's Folly - Magnus the Red, having failed to sway Horus and save his soul, races headlong toward Terra to alert his father. He breaches the Webway, rips the door to Terra from its hinges, and breaks a lot of irreplaceable tech. The Emperor, seeing his son, chastises him for breaking the Edict of Nikaea. He shows Magnus the Great Plan that now lies ruined around them. Magnus, in his shame, flees back to Prospero to await death at his brother's hand, and his eventual fall to Chaos.

The Warmaster - The Emperor has retired from the Crusade and left Horus in charge. The new Warmaster is handling all of the logistics of the Crusade, but then the bureaucrats arrive. Sent from Terra, they demand the Warmaster's time and energy. On top of this, the new order of Remembrancers are causing all manner of problems. His attention thus diverted, Horus makes several major mistakes, leading to the incident with the Interex, which was followed by Davin and his eventual fall to Chaos.

Lord of the Red Sands - The fate of Angron's Eaters of Cities was sealed when the Emperor teleported Angron out of harms way when the fighting was about to start. The Primarch's people were slaughtered, and he was robbed not only of his chance to fight with them, but also to properly mourn them. Angron himself says that the Emperor could have sent the Warhounds Legion (who were in system) to fight with them, or even just the Custodes. The event drove a wedge between the Emperor and the Primarch, and the pain of it fuels Angron's eventual fall to Chaos.

So why do I bring all of these up? Because for every one of these situations you can look at it and say, "Wow. You couldn't have driven them away more efficiently if you had tried." I mean, all it would have taken to make some of these not a disaster? The Emperor simply talking to his sons. He knew what the Ruinous Powers were, because he had already stolen a large amount of power from them. You're telling me that he couldn't spare a few minutes to tell Magnus about it? He couldn't calmly explain to Lorgar why he didn't want to be worshiped? Of course not, we have to outlaw the one and break the other.

I maintain that the Emperor manipulated events to be what they were. Why else build the Legions the way they are and then treat them like he does? The Iron Warriors want to build marvelous buildings for the betterment of humanity? Give them the worst, most thankless, dirtiest jobs imaginable. The Emperor's Children have a superiority complex because they were handpicked from the aristocracy? Engineer a genetic disease that only affects them and puts them squarely in the shadows of the other Legions. The Emperor waged a calculated campaign of cruelty against the Traitor Legions and their Primarchs.

He drove Lorgar and Magnus into the open arms of Chaos. He drove Perturabo, Mortarion, and Angron into rebellion, and eventual Chaos. He created Curze and Alpharius to be the monsters they are. He engineered the circumstances that made Fulgrim lust for higher peaks, and that made Horus doubt his own judgement.

It all boils down to a few key points. I believe the following:

1) The Emperor has known about the Ruinous Powers the whole time, or close enough to it as to make no difference.

2) The Emperor does not make mistakes. He stole fire from the Gods through trickery. He fought a C'Tan and buried it on Mars. These things do not happen by chance.

3) The Emperor intends to destroy the Ruinous Powers. In order to do that, he had to draw them into open conflict. He set his sons as bait to draw them out.

As a last piece, we have several instances of a particular technique being employed before and during the Heresy. It involves launching a craft toward your target while completely powered down. Once inside auspex range of the target, power up the craft for the final approach. Your enemy will not be able to react in time. The only issue with this approach is that, once launched, you have no control over the craft. You have to trust that your calculations are correct, and that nothing changes.

This technique was used by the Luna Wolves (in the event that gave them that name) under the command of the Emperor. I believe the Emperor is employing this technique again on a grand scale. Set events in motion, knowing that you will be unable to affect the course of events (because you are a skeleton on a fancy chair). Hope that you have been able to see far enough and that you can count on everyone to do their part, even though they don't know that they have a part.

So, yes. Khorne may salivate, and Tzeentch may giggle, because they like the way everything is going, but they don't see where it will end. Everything is proceeding according to plan. A plan that was set in motion 10k years ago or more. One simply has to have faith in the Emperor, Beloved By All.

-Phobos, does not play at dice and does not believe in coincidence

The Emperor's Plan by Huinesoron on 2018-12-15 09:03:00 UTC Reply

Dear Diary,

Today on the way back from C'Tan wrestling (great workout!), I stumbled onto the fact that the Empyrean is inhabited by four malevolent beings of 'godlike' power, along with countless hordes of what I'm going to name 'daemons' (classical reference, diary - look it up!). How did I miss that?! Being basically omni-potent/niscient/awesome, I immediately came up with three plans for dealing with this problem.

Plan Ne-Shomeh

'The Warp is what it eats'. If that's so, maybe I can feed it... something better? Let's run through the four 'gods':

-Subject K is all about war and slaughter. Plan: transition it over to honour and glory. Could create an order of honour-focussed superwarriors to pull this off.

-Subject T is all about change and betrayal. How about art? Could make some kind of order of artists (idea: send them out with the supersoldiers??); alternately, could convert it to focus on bureaucratic infighting.

-Subject N, plague. Need something else that spreads memetically across civilisations - religion? Bit of a blow to rationalism, but if it works...

-Subject S loves murderous excess. How about switching it to simple rich decadence? Could create a feudal, strongly heirarchical society for that.

Plan pH.Obos

Fighting is good, right? But these 'gods' are all squirrelled away in the Warp, not really available for wrestling. I'm sure if they or their daemons came out more, they'd be a cinch to kill.

So how about a Trojan Horse scenario? Send in some soldiers (maybe those superwarriors from last plan?) to convert to their side and change them from within. Rather than hiding inside, get them going on crusades out into the material world, where they can be fought.

Ultimate goal: bring the four entities out in person. Might need some sort of host bodies? Perhaps some kind of super-superwarrior?

Plan Huine's Oron

The Fall of the Eldar shows that it's possible to make a new 'god' in the warp. What if the new one was a God of... Order?! Would need to dedicate an entire galaxy-spanning society to authoritarianism, but eventually would build up enough believe in me Subject E to transform him into something that can impose rules and commands on the population of the Warp.

~

Problems with these plans: they're all going to take a while, call it ten millennia or so, and they're going to make for a rubbish galaxy while they're ongoing. What if the Eldar decide to try and 'improve' situation for humanity (stranger things have happened!)? For safety's sake, will probably need to wipe out all Xenos races along the way.

Hmm... and I will have those handy superwarriors to work with...

~The Emperor of Mankind

PFFFTAHAHAAA (nm) by Thoth on 2018-12-16 01:49:00 UTC Reply
Yeah, that sounds about right! (nm) by Neshomeh on 2018-12-16 00:33:00 UTC Reply
On Plan Ne-Shomeh. by Granz the Ice Cream Monarch on 2018-12-15 19:49:00 UTC Reply

Actually, if you want to take a look at what the Chaos Gods might look like if their bright aspects were emphasize, you can, as memory serves, take a look at Brighthammer. See, it's not exactly as if the Chaos Gods have no good points, as has been noted, so you could possibly alter them by forcibly enforcing these.

For Subject K, you're spot-on with Honor. It's already a decent-sized chunk of him and how people get caught up with his followers, and, if memory serves, part of why he hates Psykers. They can just sit at the back and blow people to bits with their minds without ever putting themselves in danger, and how is that honorable? However, glory... it's there, but I don't think it's strong enough to make up a sizable chunk of Dieting!Khorne. Instead, I'd go for righteous anger, that which makes somebody seize a blade because they intend to put themselves between the strong and the weak, because there is somebody that needs to be protected and they will be the person who does it because this is not fair and it is notright and that will be fixed. Anger is already a big part of him, but changing the source of that anger will probably have a decent impact.

Subject T - well, change isn't necessarily bad, is it? It's the reason that things get better, not just the reason things get worse, and this is why Tzeentch is also the God of Hope and Ambition. The issue is how this manifests itself. Tzeentch, as it stands, promises standing at the cost of someone else, power which is used to destroy others, the ability to escape bad situations only by casting others down. He's also change for the sake of change, which has a tendency to be bad when these changes include things such as changes to personality, or changes to physical form expressed as very visible mutations. There are so many ways to go wrong that when you're just throwing changes at people, they're probably going to get worse. So, for him, as with the anger of Khorne, you have to change the nature of these things. Ambition, but not at the expense of others. Hope, but not only for oneself, but for those around one, or indeed for everyone. Change, but only for the sake of making things better. You'd apply similar reasoning to altering Dieting!Tzeentch's aspects as God of Magic and Planning, I think.

Subject N is going to be the most difficult, because the reason he is a Chaos God is half lack of understanding of the worldview of most sapient creatures, and half because he loves everything. Everything. From the highest noble to the lowliest peasant to the ugliest toad to the most lethal bacteria. He loves everything, and the problem is, living creatures aren't the best at getting along without harming other living creatures in some way. He also, as memory serves, doesn't perceive how humans experience disease as humans do. To him, it is essentially an act of worship towards him, and any agony and discomfort might be read as gratitude. However, there is something here that can be used - love. Not romantic love, but simple benevolence towards everything. Harnessed appropriately, it would be a very useful component for converting Nurgle into a deity less likely to overrun a planet with plague and be thankful to the population for dying from it. Nurgle is also the God of Happiness and Peace. His daemons have a tendency to be relatively... hm... jolly, perhaps is the right word. These are all things that could be emphasized to create a better deity in the right hands, but... my problem with Dieting!Nurgle is that I'm not sure how to do it in a way that gets rid of the fundamental problem that arrises from the fact that he loves each and every living thing.

Subject S isn't quite the God of Murderous Excess - they're just excess in general already. Thus, it already has quite a fondness for fine dining and the pleasures of the senses. It's not so much refocusing on these as restraining it to these, which is, to be fair, a good plan. It is also, however, the God of Pleasure and Perfection, or at least, attempted Perfection. From these domains, it manages to install itself as the God of Artists. This is something that can be leaned into, while also leaning away from using things like blood as painting materials. Dieting!Slaanesh would basically be... well, sort of how some people have thought of artists in the past. Hedonistic and obsessed with making their art The Best Ever, and actually willing to put in the work to make it that good, but not really harmful.

At least, that's what I think. I could be wrong on all of this, and honestly, probably am. :P

Sure, sure... by Huinesoron on 2018-12-16 08:08:00 UTC Reply

... but if things like Universal Love and Tons of Art are the Emperor's cunning plan to defeat Chaos, then he failed miserably, because what he ended up with was a death-worshipping empire of feudal bureaucracy. So if his plan is running as intended, it has to reflect that.

Now, granted, he COULD have failed.

But Phobos said he is omniscient,
And Phobos is an honourable man.

(With apologies to W. Shakespeare.)

hS
My thoughts on Subject N. by Neshomeh on 2018-12-16 00:32:00 UTC Reply

In a not-crappy universe, Subject N is the god of nature, cycles, and balance. That last bit is really important. If all life is equally precious, then theoretically, no one form of life should be allowed to destroy any other, but the other side of the coin is that none is inherently more worth saving, either. That looks like a stalemate, except that (as I understand it) Nurgle is delighted by new forms of life, new techniques of survival, etc. This tends to take the form of horrible new diseases in canon, but may also apply to the tendency of living things to adapt and change and evolve. The ones that do this the best are the ones that tend to flourish, but flourishing too much at the expense of one's ecosystem results in an eventual collapse, so what you want is a constant, cyclical ebb and flow of ascendance and decline.

Dieting!Nurgle knows that predators and disease have their roles in keeping populations in check, but if the prey or host population is utterly wiped out, so too is the predator or disease. A population may eventually outgrow its predators or become immune to a particular form of disease, but either the predator/disease will adapt, or something new will come along to serve the same purpose. This is all good and proper. Adaptation is survival; stagnation is death; balance is life.

Nurgle may not be able to love an individual, but that's okay. We've got Dieting!Slaanesh to recognize the potential for excellence and worthiness of love in each and every person. {= )

~Neshomeh
Here's my take on this: by 61516 on 2018-12-15 23:52:00 UTC Reply

I've been pondering the same question about the better nature of the Chaos Gods as I work on my version of Brightammer, and this is what I've managed to think up:

Subject K is the god of strife and competition. It seeks to make people stronger by testing them.

Subject T is the god of hope and knowledge, and it provides mortals with both courage and cunning.

Subject N is the god of life and death, who provides mortals with inner peace so that they may face the cycle of death and rebirth.

Subject S is the god of excess and desire. It gives mortals the power to see the joy that their lives already held, and also sick heavy metal songs, which are the only appropriate soundtrack for the galaxy they face.

A minor point, but... by Granz the Ice Cream Monarch on 2018-12-13 14:44:00 UTC Reply

... Saying that Chaos gets stronger when people act on their worst natures... isn't really true. One of the things I find really interesting about what I've read of the whole Brighthammer thing in general is that the Chaos gods... don't really change much. At most, the emphasis change, with Khorne, for example, focusing less on the aspects that are the constant spilling of blood and mindless violence and more on the aspects that are honor and violence for the sake of others, but this doesn't make him not Khorne. For Nurgle, it's even more weird, since, assuming I've read things correctly, he is essentially loving to all living things (regardless of whether or not they, oh, invade the bodies of other living things and cause them to slowly, painfully die).

Really, this is a problem, although given that I'd predict that the Independents would spend more of their time fighting their Chaos brothers than their Imperial brothers, the Emperor might decide to clue them in to weaken their mutual enemy, for since their followers aren't worshipping the Emperor, they will (assuming I've remembered this right) fuel the Chaos Gods with even the most noble of intentions and emotions. Somebody will end up getting power from that faction, and I don't think there's really a third option between the Emperor and Chaos.

A fine point! by Thoth on 2018-12-13 17:18:00 UTC Reply

Indeed, it is worth considering what Chaos IS as an entity.

Chaos isn't evil. It's somewhat telling that we call the servants of Chaos daemons, not demons—a spelling classically associated with neutral forces. Chaos is chaotic neutral, not evil. It's a reflection of the collective unconscious: messy, raw, emotional, and unstable.

It isn't something we can afford to let win. But it's not evil.

The Warp is what it eats. by Neshomeh on 2018-12-13 18:45:00 UTC Reply

The Chaos Gods were created from the preeminent drives within the psyches of the dominant species of the time and then got fat on worship. That's why the Emperor tried to make the Imperium as rational as possible. He just sorta forgot that, when you put the universe on a diet, it's not enough to cut carbs and avoid processed foods. You have to feed it good things, like compassion, tolerance, kindness, generosity...

~Neshomeh

Oh, I'm not saying it'll go well... by Thoth on 2018-12-13 12:45:00 UTC Reply

It's indisputably gonna fall apart. The question is HOW.

Hell, I still think Magnus is a weak link. The Sons are arrogant to a man, and pretty dang independent. There's still a good chance of them falling and even if they don't it could be trouble.

I just don't think it should be taken for granted that they will.

On the Eldar by SATV-26S Athena on 2018-12-13 00:22:00 UTC Reply

They're very unlikely to help, let alone people as touched by the Warp as the Thousand Sons. The TS are better off helping themselves or waiting for the AdMech to find a breakthrough.

Can I ask what your timeframe on this is? by Scapegrace on 2018-12-12 19:16:00 UTC Reply

BC if this is during the 41st Millennium, then the Tau seem like the perfect allies for the Independent faction. The rigidity of Tau castes and their ideas of "a place for everyone and everyone in their place" seems like a very good fit with the organizational philosophy of the Legions, and it also gives them a serious amount of additional firepower. Consider: Terminator armour with Battlesuit mods and weapon systems, and vice versa.

~~also the standard longarm of the independent legions would then prolly be the burst cannon instead of the bolter and that is some serious upgunning right there~~

Counterpoint: by Thoth on 2018-12-12 22:44:00 UTC Reply

The Tau are unlikely to bow to the kind of Humanity-is-superior rhetoric of the Imperium, and while the Independents may have broken off for various reasons, I see little to indicate that they'd have flipped position on that.

Furthermore, I doubt that the indeps and Tau would see eye-to-eye on what "good" is

The original idea... by Neshomeh on 2018-12-13 06:09:00 UTC Reply

is that the Independents are Team Don't Be a Jerk (And Maybe the Galaxy Won't Burn For Ten Thousand Years).

So, they reject Chaos and all the awful stuff that goes with it. They also reject what's not so great about the Imperium, and that means rejecting its blinkered insistence that humanity is teh awsumest 4evar. This whole faction starts off with listening to Konrad Curze, after all, and he is not humanity's biggest fan. He's seen its dark underbelly. He knows its flaws and its weaknesses, and pretending they don't exist does not make them go away. It makes us more vulnerable to exploitation.

Primeline!Curze believes the only way to deal with this is to bring humanity under absolute control through fear. Curzeline!Curze, however, is tempered by the likes of Vulkan ("protect the weak"), Sanguinius (he fears his flaws, but strives to overcome them), Magnus ("knowledge is power"), Perturabo (building a more beautiful tomorrow, today!), and the Khan ("the Khan is just chill as f***, okay?" —Phobos).

I know nothing about the Tau, and we've only gotten about as far as Isstvan/Prospero/Calth on the timeline anyway, but if all that sounds good to them, then sure, why not? {= )

~Neshomeh

taumarines taumarines taumarines taumarines yay by Scapegrace on 2018-12-13 09:17:00 UTC Reply

I bring up the question of the timeline because, well, the Tau didn't even exist during the Horus Heresy. Their civilization is established as only having existed for the last six thousand years by the time of M41, but they've still massively outclassed the Imperium in terms of interesting technology. One of the big barriers to their expansion has always been low numbers and an inability to build functioning warp drives. Allying with the Nostramine League (bc there has to be a better name than "Independent Marines Faction") gives them access to both more manpower AND more manoeuvrability.

The biggest stumbling block in that regard is the Tau's propensity for proselytization. While the Marines are not exactly worshipping the Cult of the Emperor Ascendant, and while the Greater Good is - in broad strokes - very similar to the doctrines underpinning Nostromine philosophy, one imagines that there would very quickly become disputes as to how to conduct campaigns. The Fire Caste fights like the White Scars: mobility is absolutely paramount, and concentrated, overwhelming force to take out the enemy's leadership at the weakest point of the line is the cornerstone of their strategy. Given that you've already stated that the White Scars are the weakest of the Recon Legions, this might be a bit of an issue. It also doesn't gel entirely with people like Sanguinius's strategies, since the Tau consider melee combat to be a barbarous abomination at best. I also worry that the Tau would be too eager to try and fold the Nostramines into the Tau Empire proper, which might strain relations rather.

Lorecheck by Thoth on 2018-12-13 13:02:00 UTC Reply

Scape, I know you don't like the Tau lore mess, but we can't just ignore it and assume your perspective: it does have to be addressed.

The Tau... are complicated. Not because they're complex in and of themselves, but because lore is contradictory. Okay, that's par for the course in 40k, but the Tau kinda take it to the extreme. Depending on who you ask, the Tau are relatively benevolent, optimistic, and arguably a bit naive, collectively an empire that's trying to do the best for its citizens and The Greater Good...

...Or they're a mash of Huxley and Orwell, with the typical 40k ruthless cruelty hiding just beneath the skin, utilizing mind control, eugenics, and the usual set of sinister tactics.

Which of these perspectives is propaganda is left to the reader.

So really, we have three options:

1) The Tau are relatively friendly, willing to cooperate towards their interests, and are... reasonably honest and reasonable.

2) The Tau are sinister, ominous, and rather dystopic.

3) We keep it ambiguous, planting clues in both directions.

I've always preferred a fourth option: by 61516 on 2018-12-13 23:17:00 UTC Reply

The Tau are cold, pragmatic, and extremely sane. They're not exactly honorable, but they're very good at running a state. You can only be so evil if you want your empire to prosper.

That's a good option. (nm) by Thoth on 2018-12-13 23:23:00 UTC Reply

So much agreement! (nm) by 61516 on 2018-12-13 23:25:00 UTC Reply

VeTaunari, huh? I can get behind that. by Scapegrace on 2018-12-14 23:32:00 UTC Reply

I wonder if the Greater Good focuses more on the latter half of the phrase "a place for everyone, and everyone in their place". What if Tau society's extremely rigid caste structure is itself part of a comprehensive and clinical meritocracy, in the true sense of the word? What would that look like?

Constant and rigorous testing, standardized by the Ethereals. "Social credit" systems like the one in IRL China. Total employment and total job security meaning that much of the population, particularly recently, is subtly funneled into occupations with high turnover rates in the 'saal and 'la tiers of the four primary castes. Automation and the pace of robotics advances meaning biological Tau are slowly becoming obsolete. Everyone kept on a universal "lifetime salary" that is adjusted by what you do with your life and is otherwise the bare minimum to survive. Rises and falls as swift as they are merciless. A society that provides, but does not care; that raises, but does not nurture.

And the really sad part about that, the truly awful part... is that even with all that, compared to life in the Imperium? It is a paradise. Even without the Water Caste's diplomatic efforts, life in the Imperium is so utterly horrific that a totalitarian surveillance state run by inscrutable maybe-psychic blue space people is deeply preferable. It's a hard life, one governed by exams like some far-future version of pre-reformation Aramanth from the Wind On Fire books, but is it really worse than living in a hive? Or stuck on some dismal feudal agriworld? Or hunted down and exterminated because a distant cousin was born with a cleft palate or a club foot three decades ago?

My point is, maybe the vision of Tau society I personally consider true is a Potemkin village made by the Water Caste, but given how truly, unbelievably grotesque Imperial society is in the grim darkness of the far future, does that matter?

My other point is that Space Marines with pulse munitions and Tau development teams constantly upgrading power armour is awesome and should be encouraged. =]

Won't argue that point. by Thoth on 2018-12-15 02:14:00 UTC Reply

Pretty much any variant of the Tau empire is a better place to live than the Imperium.

But then, the Imperium's job is to be a despotic hellpit. It does it well.

Glory to the Imperium. (nm) by 61516 on 2018-12-15 03:29:00 UTC Reply

So, we have the Xenosmopolitan Faction, containing: by Scapegrace on 2018-12-15 17:00:00 UTC Reply
- Space Marines of the Independent Faction, a full six legions of hulking power-armoured supermen.
  - The Tau, whose knowledge of plasma weaponry far outstrips that of the human forces of the setting.
  - The Kroot, who have the ability to acquire genetic traits from things that they consume.
  - The Vespid, whose crystalline technology is immensely fascinating.
  - The Nicassar, one of the Tau Empire's few genuine sources of psykers and who Magnus might find very interesting.
  - The Demiurg, a small but dedicated contingent of asteroid miners who live aboard gigantic spacecraft.
  - The Tarellians, who may be a serious source of conflict within the alliance given how the Imperium almost wiped them out with virus bombs
  
  And many, many more besides.
  
  The thing about this faction is that with everyone working together, they can combine their strengths to be far more effective than they would individually. The downside, however, is the competing priorities of all the elements of the alliance. One imagines conflict between the Tau insistence on things becoming mass-producible and the Salamanders' ethos of artisanal craftsmanship. Or between Tau constant examination and performance analysis and the independent spirit of the White Scars. Or between the Kroot's penchant for eating their dead (as well as everyone else's) and, well, basically everyone.
  
  But the positives outweigh the negatives. Understanding how the Kroot adopt genetic traits into their own forms could make for incredible advances in the production of geneseed, making greater and greater generations of battle-brothers. Granting highly mobile ordnance in the form of Broadside Battlesuit support to the Iron Warriors makes them even more terrifying of a besieging force. Vespid crystalline technology combined with sonic actuators could make for honest-to-Tau'va fighting spirit-powered lightsabres for Assault Marines.
  
  Hell, we might even see the emergence of baseline-human support for the Marine Legions! Humans learning how to pilot battlesuits and use Tau weaponry is far from impossible, after all, and it gives the Legions a steady supply of personnel from which they can find heroes worthy of receiving the geneseed. These Squire Chapters are an amazing propaganda tool too - join up, fight against oppression, and you too could become a Tonking Great Superhuman Space Marine! Apply today by contacting your housing unit's Recruitment Drone and filling out Form 72/ast-xv! Offers and pay grades may be affected by your social credit score and those of the people around you. Would you like to know more?

This sounds fun! by Neshomeh on 2018-12-16 00:39:00 UTC Reply

I don't know how we get here from where we've started, but I like it. ^_^

And I mean it's not like Space Marines don't munch on the dead sometimes. That omophagea ain't there for no reason. Just ask the Blood Angels. Or the Space Wolves. Or that one Thousand Son who was in the Crusader Host and impersonated a Custodian to escape from uber-max prison on Terra. Or probably a dozen other examples.

~Neshomeh

... I can't believe I forgot that. by Scapegrace on 2018-12-16 05:17:00 UTC Reply

Adapting the omophagea to work with Kroot genetic absorption is an awesome prospect, in both the great and terrible senses of the word. Giving them a testbed for future adaptations and refinements of the Legions' geneseed as well as an edge in ongoing campaigns. One feels that the Apothecaries of the Legions fulfil a role analogous to the Shapers, only with a less instinctive knowledge of what to eat and what to avoid.

... Though then again, is that really going to be an issue, considering some of the other geneseed organs in the Astartes ~~lunchbox~~ toolbox. The Preomnor organ is an incredibly potent bio-organ, allowing a Marine to break down just about anything short of Tyranid bio-acid into nutrients without damage to the Marine chowing down. If something does turn out to be too much for an Astartes to handle, there's the Oolitic Kidney to get rid of it.

On a related note, the Black Carapace? The Tau are looking at that, then looking at the XV-02 experimental pilot suits, then back to the Black Carapace. Then they're rubbing their hands and getting the really experimental scientists. ICYMI, the XV-02s are teeny tiny battlesuits that really only constitute personal armour. However, they allow the wearer to form a neural interface with Tau machinery (in the most prominent case, a Devilfish grav-tank). This is literally what the Black Carapace does, and if you can improve the bond between a Marine and the machine spirit of his thumping great suit of power armour, then you get an even better Marine.

And all this is going to be done quietly and efficiently with medical drones who aren't pausing every thirty seconds to chant something weird in High Gothic or hurl incense everywhere. Though they might instead ask the person undergoing treatment to file a report on the progress of their genetic modifications; an optional one, of course, though failing to do so might affect their social credit score and those of their common associates. If we could just direct your attention to form 62-alpha-prime? Lovely. Your service to the greater good is hugely appreciated, Astartes. A drone will be along in a minute to mop up the remaining bits of... well, to be honest, we're not sure what that is, but it's everywhere and sometimes moving. Have we mentioned that this is experimental genetic engineering? You may withdraw your consent at any time, though doing so may seriously affect your social credit score and those of associates up to and including Connectivity Degree Four. Would you like to know more?

Just a thought... by 61516 on 2018-12-16 15:15:00 UTC Reply

...we've given the Tau access to space marine chaplains. Productivity is about to go through the roof.

Sign me up. (nm) by 61516 on 2018-12-15 23:33:00 UTC Reply

The way I see it, ruthless is better than insane. (nm) by 61516 on 2018-12-14 23:46:00 UTC Reply

But the Tau are pragmatic. by 61516 on 2018-12-13 00:20:00 UTC Reply

Even if they wouldn't join with the indeps outright, they would probably be willing to cut some sort of deal with them if the opportunity presented itself, as they do with the Imperium from time to time in canon.

True that by Thoth on 2018-12-13 02:11:00 UTC Reply

But that's not the same as an all-out alliance.

As I said (nm) by 61516 on 2018-12-13 02:59:00 UTC Reply

Yey, Agreement! ^_^ (nm) by Thoth on 2018-12-13 03:44:00 UTC Reply

I have one! by 61516 on 2018-12-11 21:21:00 UTC Reply

This is part one of my attempt to make a complete version of Brighthammer 40,000, effectively a mirror-universe version of 40k, an idea which has been floating around the internet in various states of completion. More to come.

The Imperium
Deep in the vaults of the Imperial palace, the Emperor of humanity sits in contemplation. Assured of his greatness by concubines and boot-lickers, but unable to influence the Imperium his is said to rule, he finds himself wondering how this came to be, how a man became a god…
It began with the Warp storms. They brought interstellar travel to a halt, ending the Age of Technology and bringing forth the Age of Strife. It was a time of total chaos, of phosphex and volkite, a time when men were mad and peace was unknown. From all this came the man who would be the Emperor of humanity.
He began his quest as one of Terra’s countless squabbling warlords, just another strongman, albeit a skilled one, directing a band of troops in a constant war for resources and technology. This all changed when he met a man named Malcador, later called the hero. Malcador became good friends with the Emperor, and it was he who suggested the Emperor take on that title. Malcador proved a keen advisor to the Emperor, and together they created a plan not just to conquer Terra, but to rebuild humanity.
With gene manipulation and lost technology, they made warriors to rival any others. Soldiers like the Thunder Warriors and the Five-Two Chiliad, guided by the cunning tactics of the Emperor, made short work of tyrants like the Unspeakable King of Albia, Cardinal Tang, and Narthan Dume (half mad and half genius).
With the lands of Terra united, the Emperor could begin the next phase of the plan he had made with Malcador. This would be the Great Crusade: a quest to rebuild humanity, so that it might live in the light once more. To this end the Emperor started his most ambitious project yet: fatherhood.
The Emperor planned to produce twenty sons through genetic engineering, each with power to rival his own. These would be his Primarchs, and they would lead his legions in the upcoming crusade.
He did this with technology captured from his first extraplantery conquest. The defeat of the gene-cults of Luna and their cybernetic army by the 8th, 13th, and 16th space marine legions allowed him to acquire genetic modification technology, which would facilitate the creation of the Primarchs and the mass-production of space marines.
The Primarchs were made in a secret facility on Luna using all the knowledge the Emperor had at his disposal. But just as he had completed his greatest achievement, hidden forces finally made their move. The Primarchs were scattered across the universe by the strange gods that dwell in the Warp.
Thus the Emperor first learned of the Gods of Chaos, and he had a new task at hand: protect humanity from the perils of the Warp. With this in his mind, continued his Great
Crusade with a heavy heart, knowing that those ruinous powers could strike at any moment. As the Great Crusade continued, and he expanded the domain of humanity through diplomacy and conquest, he began to consider a possibility. His reputation had become nearly mythic, so perhaps he could cement his power by making himself truly mythical: he would be the Emperor of Humanity no longer, he would be the God-Emperor.
Cults in his name having already sprung up all over his domain, all the Emperor had to was continue working miracles. By the time he rediscovered the Primarch Horus Lupercal the Emperor’s divinity was without doubt.
With the Great Crusade well underway and the Primarchs gradually being discovered, the Emperor began to think his work was almost done.
His dream was shattered when Horus turned against him. With half the Space Marine Legions on his side, Horus quickly claimed large portions of the Imperium for himself, culminating in a daring attack on Terra.
The Emperor would have met demise in the battle that followed, if not for the heroism of Sub-Auxilius Ollanius Pius, who went toe-to-toe with Horus himself to prevent him from landing a killing blow on the Emperor. Pius perished at the hands of the Primarch, and reluctantly the Emperor struck dead his own son.
The rebellion dispersed with the death of Horus, as movements based around a single charismatic individual are wont to do. The Emperor continued to rule, but as time went on and his empire grew, ruling his dominion became increasingly difficult. Furthermore, many high ranking officials in the Imperium thought the duties of a common ruler beneath the dignity of a god, so the Emperor delegated some parts of his duty to other people of skill and character, and slowly he found himself being pushed further and further into the background of Imperial politics. The death blow to his reign came when Ecclesiarch Goge Vandire passed a law forbidding mortals from looking upon the Emperor without permission from a High Lord of Terra. To his horror, the Emperor found out that he had lost the power to veto the edict, since he was not technically a member of his own church. To this day he remains sealed in the deepest vaults of the Imperial palace.
… The scraping of the massive doors to his inner sanctum shocks the Emperor out of his reverie. He brushes the hair out of his eyes and peers into the gloom. The figure approaching him is not one of his guards or his counselors, but rather a sword-bearing human clad in blue armor. The figure speaks to him in the voice of a man he thought long dead:
“I think it’s time we had a chat,” the stranger pauses, unsure how to address that Master of Mankind. After a few moments, the newcomer finally speaks:
“Father.”

Part 2 by 61516 on 2018-12-11 21:22:00 UTC Reply

The Eldar
The problem with the Eldar is that to understand the Eldar, one must first understand the Eldar. The Eldar are a long lived race, their history is shrouded in myth, and no one knows how much truth really lies in the tales of gods and heroes like Isha, Khaine, and Kurnous.
The Eldar claim to have been chose to save the galaxy by the mysterious Old Ones, whose nature is lost to time. The Eldar were given amazing psychic powers and tasked with defeating the C’tan, and pushed them back beyond the Gates of Varl, where they are thought to remain to this day.
The Old Ones disappeared after the war, but the surviving Eldar found themselves in a position of strength. With their new psychic powers and the technology given to them by the Old Ones, they quickly developed a number of colonies throughout the galaxy. The Eldar were able to quickly traverse the galaxy through the Webway, a parallel dimension safer than the Warp. The network of Eldar outposts slowly turned into an interstellar empire, one that came to dominate that galaxy.
With power approaching the godlike, the Eldar lived without disease or war, their every need catered to by their powerful artifice. But the years of plenty took their toll, and their Eldar grew decadent, constantly seeking new pleasures to stave off the crushing ennui brought on by a life without challenge or purpose. The near-religious pursuit of sensation led to strange disturbances in the Warp, a realm that is never truly stable. The chaotic waves of emotion formed into a creature without precedent: the Eldar had made a god of their desire. She Who Thirsts was both the salvation of the Eldar and their undoing, for trillions of Eldar were pulled from the material realm to become Her first daemons, reborn into lives of unchecked emotion.
But some remained. Foreseeing the destruction of their species, Eldar sorcerers built mighty ships called Craftworlds to take the Eldar to the far corners of the galaxy, so that they might survive the coming end. These bands of a few billion Eldar departed to the farthest corners of the galaxy, far from the reach of the coming end. As time went on they traversed the galaxy, seeking some way of rebuilding their old glory. Throughout this trial they were aided by Khaine, the Eldar god of war, who led them into battle against the C’tan so long ago.
Khaine’s reputation had diminished significantly during the years of the Eldar empire, as he existed to lead the Eldar through difficult times that just never came in the days of the Empire, and to guide them in wars that were now a thing of the past. Over time he became a buffoon in the eyes of the Eldar, the foolish twin brother of the king, obsessed with honor and instantly flustered when faced with anything more subtle than a punch to the face. They may not have loved him, but when the Eldar needed him, Khaine was there.
Khaine taught the Eldar the ways of war again, and gave them the power to resist the pull of She Who Thirsts. He forged them into warriors and adventurers, heroes capable of reclaiming the lost Eldar worlds and bringing their people back from the point of extinction. Armed with the technology of the lost empire and psychic powers that beat the C’tan, they pursue their quest without fear, for the worst has already come.
Not all Eldar dwell on the Craftworlds. Some tread the path of the outcast, plying their trade as pirates and mercenaries on the edges of known space. These corsairs, as they are known, represent the majority of the few Eldar seen in Imperial space. They can be seen in small numbers in major Imperial ports, or working as protection for Imperial merchants.
Some Eldar survived the fall without the aid of Khaine. Some far-off colonies never learned of the destruction of their kin, while others survived outside the material realm. Trade outposts in the depths of the Webway provided a safe haven for billions of Eldar, most of them in the seemingly infinite port city of Commorragh. The people of Commorragh are as close to the old Eldar empire as one can find in the present day, reckless hedonism and all. The city is a key stopover for roving Eldar craft, as well as any Imperial ship lucky enough to be equipped with a Webway drive, though visitors should beware the locals, for the ancient criminal Kabals of Commorragh protect their own with great enthusiasm and a deeply held fascination with the misery of others.
Many ask about the Haemonculi, called by some the rightful kings of the Eldar, who dwell in the depths of that storied city. Those who do not learn the truth are happier for it.
The other Eldar of the Webway are the Harlequins, keepers of myth and agents of the Laughing God, Cegorach. It is they who tell the tales of the lost gods, and teach the young to fear She Who Thirsts. It is they who speak of Khaine’s love for his people, and his quest to avenge his fallen brother. Cegorach, for his part, just laughs.
Eldar relations with the Imperium were defined by the agreement set by Farseer Eldrad Ulthran and the Emperor. The Emperor befriended him some time during the Great Crusade, when the Emperor’s fleet made contact with the Eldar in the form of Craftworld Ulthwé. When the Eldar had run into humans before, they found them foolish and insignificant, but when Ulthran met the Emperor the days of the Eldar empire had long passed, and the Eldar of Ulthwé had learned humility in the way only total ruin can teach. The Eldar sent Eldrad as an ambassador to the Humans, and he fought alongside the Emperor for many years. In the later years of the Crusade the Emperor’s duties pulled him back to Terra, and Eldrad rose to take command of his Craftworld. Before they left they made the pact that lives on in legend. As Eldrad said: “Stay the [act of killing one’s sibling] away from us, and we’ll stay the [said noun] away from you.

Alternate Heresies! by Thoth on 2018-12-11 19:46:00 UTC Reply

Alt Heresies are a popular thing in the 40k fandom, so on top of what you've written, Phobos, I may as well take a moment to share some of the other great ones:

The Dornian Heresy is Bolter And Chainsword's shot at a Heresy where the allegiances of every Primarch. So it's the violent traitors Leman Russ and Rogal Dorn and so on. Hence the name. The Roboutian Heresy is another crack at the same idea, which...I confess to not having read. But it's popular...

/tg/ did a trilogy of different heresies, only one making use of the canon primarchs, the other two using an entirely original cast. At least one of them actually uses the "three factions" idea. So that's neat.

And of course, the other alternate heresy: no heresy at all. Warhammer High is a collection of stories from a setting where there was no heresy, and all the primarchs settled down and had daughters who go to school together. I know, it sounds awful, and some of the stories aren't that great. But one particular writer by the name of Someone Else created a quadrilogy of brilliant long-form stories that are, in my opinion, some of the finest the fandom has to offer.

As for your heresy, I think it's viable! more alt heresies are are always fun. Although, of course, I advocate a Magnus-headed 3rd faction. If he could have gotten out of his situation without going Faust, it's quite likely what would have happened.