Subject: So... is that an unambiguously bad thing?
Author:
Posted on: 2018-11-28 13:32:00 UTC
Or is it more of a 'bad/interesting/Dwarf-Fortress!Fun' thing?
Because I know nothing about this whatever-it-is except what's been in this thread.
hS
Simple enough game, really. You have been chosen to take part in a new Holy Grail War (from the Fate series) and you are trying to summon a Heroic Spirit to fight for you. The only caveat: the spirit must be a character from fiction.
1) Who are you trying to summon?
2) Which of the seven standard Classes are they?
Neshomeh and I were discussing this in regards to the 40k Primarchs, but I figure we should open it up to the entirety of fandom.
-Phobos
Caster of course, fire to the face tends to work on most people.
Noble Phantasm: Well, Darquesse could be it, letting loose the alter-ego. Unfortunately, she wondered off into the dimension of the Faceless Ones.
But my brother had some interesting ideas, chief among them Agatha Heterodyne and Bugs Bunny. No idea what class either of them would be, though.
... in our lives.
Ladies and Gentlemen of the PPC, I wish to present to you... Jeanne Alter Santa Lily!
Also known as: An absolutely adorable smol ball who is this year's Fate/Grand Order Event Santa. Today was Day One of the event and I'm already half-tempted to ditch Cú and Tamamo-no-Mae for this little bundle of joy.
I think Illya might be as good as a solution. With Herakles at her side at any moment she's not bonding with the other members of her family
Something about the Berserker class speaks to me. It says fear me. It says I am ripper, tearer, slasher, gouger. It says that mine is strenght and lust and power. For that reason, I will start the list of potential Berserkers with:
- Beowulf: After all, dude ripped a monster's arm off and beat him with it. Then he went after that monster's mom. Noble Phantasm: I dunno, some guy's arm, I guess?
- Anakin Skywalker: This guy killed a bunch of kids because...reasons? Noble Phantasm: Mask of Vader
- Pinkie Pie: Do I need to explain this one? Noble Phantasm: Whatever the hell she wants it to be.
- Angron, the 12th Primarch: He lives to fight. He wants nothing else in life. Noble Phantasm: Lord of the Red Sands
- Sloth (FMA): Lumbering brute. Just wants to sleep. Will beat you senseless if you anger him, but it's such a pain to move so much. Noble Phantasm: Ludicrous Speed
- The Juggernaut (Marvel): Unstoppable is his middle name. Only suited for breaking rocks with his head, which he is really good at. Noble Phantasm: Unstoppable Force
That's a good start to the list. There are likely more that I can't think of at the moment.
-Phobos
Beowulf's Noble Phantasm is, surprisingly enough, *not* Grendel's arm. He does, however, throw his swords away and start wrastling people to death - at least, that's what he does in Fate/Grand Order. Also, fun fact about Beowulf - he's actually a very reasonable Berserker, due to his absolutely staggering Madness Enhancement rank of... E-.
I told Phobos that Beowulf's Noble Phantasm should be that he gets uber-powerful if he gets naked. I'm pretty sure that was in the story. And if it wasn't, it was definitely in the recent-ish horrible CGI mess of a film adaptation. ^_^
~Neshomeh
In that case, strike him from the record. He shall henceforth be replaced with all the sons of Feanor to be summoned sequentially as a single Berserker Servant.
-Phobos
Specifically the original Kelda Tiffany Aching met, but a bit earlier in her timeline (so she's not about to die).
Going off this thread she's probably a Caster, but it doesn't really matter, because her first move is to call for the rest of the clan.
Who have the canonical ability to step between worlds.
And therefore will come in actual person, not as summoned spirits, and will therefore not be bound by any of the rules you're thinking of.
(To quote 8Bit Theatre's Black Mage, more years ago than I can count: "Gonna cheat, gonna cheat, gonna cheat!")
Admittedly they're not going to do what I say, but I imagine the Kelda (who's still a summon) can at least point them in the right direction for me. There's fightin' to be done, right?
Nac Mac Feegle wha hae!
hS
The rules of this game suck. Let's sidestep them for a better future—together!
There's a bit of a snag if your Kelda is a Caster, because unless things get really weird there can only be one Servant of each class, but assuming for a moment that we get around that somehow...
I just want to see a clan of Feegle carry off all the extremely overpowered Sabers and Berserkers and such. The looks of confusion would be beautiful. ^_^
~Neshomeh
... but she's still a Feegle; I'm sure I could persuade her to class as Berserker.
...
Does this make the Masterharper our new Gonnagle?
hS
Robinton has Zair. The Feegles have Hamish.
Do we now have a tiny, angry blue dragonrider?
"Crivens!"
hS
We'll need reconnaissance to find out what the other Masters are up to, of course!
Typical Holy Grail Wars (at least the ones in the anime adaptations I've seen) are super-serious and kinda grim. I am all for turning this one into a lighthearted screwball comedy where good actually triumphs in the end.
I had a whole debate with Phobos last night about the (im)morality of my wish, and how wishes never turn out like you expect them to, so even with the best rules-lawyering in the multiverse something will still go wrong and it will end up with half the world losing their free will. I say the whole trope of wishes going wrong only exists because our world doesn't have magical wishes, so they can only be used in stories to teach lessons that can apply to us. In a world that DOES have real magical wishes, why shouldn't they be able to work as intended? ^_^
~Neshomeh
To get a setup where a large-scale wish works exactly right, you pretty much need a mind-reading intelligent wish-granter - if they can't read your mind, and act intelligently on what they see, they won't know all the things you mean but don't say. To look at your wish: education, health, safety, civil rights, the environment? The easiest way to keep people healthy and safe is to shut down all industry (also saves the environment!). Electricity is not required for any of your priorities. Nor is food beyond what's nutritionally required, so we're all living on soya beans - not because access to other food is restricted (that would be a civil rights violation), but because the government is only supporting soya (or whatever; pick your own suitable staple).
Education? Let's assume you mean 'the education you yourself have received', rather than 'anything so long as they're learning'. But wait, that means everywhere is turned into America, and gets to learn about American history rather than its own. Cultural preservation isn't on the list, so that's fine, right? Unless you've got a very intelligent wish-granter, they're not even going to know where to start!
And once you do have a super-intelligent all-powerful mind reader... why are they spending their time granting wishes for the people who have so many horrible thoughts all the time?
*Are they enslaved (either overtly or by their nature)? That's an excellent reason to sabotage the wishes.
*Or are they doing it of their own free will? In which case they're only going to grant the wishes that accord with their own desires anyway.
*Or do they Just Want To Help? In which case why are they waiting for wishes? They're already a godlike entity, they might as well just fix things.
It takes a lot of storywrangling to create a wish-giver that will both want and be able to grant the wish you mean to wish, with the consequences you mean to happen. Given how many things in our own world have unintended consequences (hey, I hear burning coal is great for heating!), why would magic wishes be any different?
hS
PS: We're the PPC. Screwball comedy is how we roll. ^_^
PPS: Self-nitpicking: if I'm reclassing the Kelda as a Beserker, I may as well go all the way and switch to using Jeannie. Seems more her speed, plus Rob Anybody will be even more likely to bring the clan to her aid.
(And if these Heroic Spirits are actually copies, rather than the originals transported, then Real!Jeannie will also come along to get angry at her duplicate. And then, y'know, Feegles, fightin'...)
Its desire is to manifest itself in the world, in the form of a wish, so I don't think it especially cares what the wish is as long as you make one? The catch is that it can only carry out your wish by means you yourself can comprehend. So, one guy's wish was to save people from suffering, but he'd lived his life as an assassin, saving the many by killing the few or the one—even if the one was someone he cared about. His wish was basically reduced to a mathematical process by which the population of the world was eventually wiped out altogether. (He refused to make the wish once he saw the consequences.)
So yeah, canonically, it's a tricky business indeed. It relies on the wish-maker to really understand what they're doing, and themself, to boot.
Or, well, that's my read on it from limited information about the franchise. I'm sure someone will correct me. {= )
For context, this wish is where I arrived from a starting position of "Thanos has a point, but I don't want to kill people, so..." Basically, what's the best way to reduce the world's population? I can't math hard enough to limit the birth rate without eventually making us go extinct, so that's out. Educating women, though—that helps. Let's make sure all women can get educated. And heck, why leave out the men? Everyone gets access to education. While we're at it... And here we are.
~Neshomeh
Badfic!Grail. Some delightful little Suvian throws out all known timelines and makes up something that has no business in the Fate continuum. The agents on the mission wind up with the Grail's vessel on their hands, and make the brilliant decision to bring it back to HQ. This proto-Grail looks around, goes WTF?, shrugs, and starts handing out command seals to kick off a war, because that's what it does. The rules are heavily influenced by the laws of HQ, so Rule of Funny is in full force. It's gonna be no-class-limits Battle Royale–style. Cue shenanigans and screwball comedy as we all try to get through this without dying or being overly nasty to the canon characters, who clearly can't die but definitely need to go back where they belong. ^_^
I'm assuming fictionalized agent versions of ourselves as Masters so we don't have to chuck out the entire discussion so far and start over, but if you want to imagine who your agents would try to summon, why not? {= )
~Neshomeh
Which I don't think even summons a Grail properly... F/SF is super weird. It's basically Mages in America seperate from the Association copying the Ritual/War from data collected during the 3rd HGW... But they didn't copy it 100% right, so they can summon bizarro servants.
And the first time it's a fake war and then it's a real war that DOES summon a girl... I dunno. Haven't read it, and it's by the guy who wrote Baccano! and Durarara. Convolution is a specialty.
The system for the snowfield grail war is that the "false" holy grail war acts as a primer for the "true" holy grail war. The fake war is actually necessary for the ritual. So it does summon the grail, just not in the way the Fuyuki system does it. At least in theory.
Another point, I'm not sure the grail war would even work in HQ, or at least, work as seen in the Nasuverse. Grail wars require certain conditions in the world to be met. For example, the timelines/worlds in which Tsukihime takes place will never have a grail war because the very nature of those timelines/worlds contains a "denial of human history" aspect which makes it impossible to summon heroic spirits, even if they still exist. I'm not sure if the conditions and parameters of HQ would allow for the ritual to even activate. At the very least I'm pretty sure we would need to create our own version of the grail or make adjustments since I'm positive the Nasuverse one wouldn't activate at all, especially with how planets work in universe. Although, there might be some angle that I'm not thinking of.
Would y'all please stop overthinking this? {= P
~Neshomeh
If I win, I am now wishing for a mint chocolate chip ice cream cone and I'm not sharing. {= P
~Neshomeh
I bet they do.
The Grail War is over. Let the Ice Cream War begin.
hS
Where Fujimura initiates a war for the "Tiger Grail."
It's a fighting game, and you can play as Saber wearing a lion costume in the expansion. Yes, this is real. No, I'm not making it up. Yes, it's a parody featuring chibi versions of the characters.
No, it wasn't localized. :-(
The Grail is corrupt. No wish would really be free of this. For that matter, it isn't the Grail that wants to manifest itself.
The explanation is spoilers for Heaven's Feel, so I don't really want to give it unless you're sure you want it (because you don't want to wade through a long Visual novel or wait for the rest of the Heaven's Feel movie trilogy to come out), but TL;DR I wouldn't wish on the Grail if I were you.
But I remember that Grand Order's big organization, Chaldea, was created thanks to funds and means its founder secured thanks to a wish to the Grail he managed to not duck up.
Unless you count what happened after him and his Servant got their wish without immediate monkey paw effect...
But if that's the case, firstly, I don't know how old Chaldea is, and secondly, I'm almost certain GO is set in an AU. Which means that it's irrelevant: The Grail may never have been corrupted in that universe.
In the prime Fate timeline, however, The Grail is absolutely corrupt. Even if Kiritsugu hadn't won, and the wish had been more achievable by peaceful means, the Fuyuki Grail can only destroy.
Almost all Fate properties are in some variant alternate universe. But also keep in mind the grails in FGO are very different. For starters there are a ton. Some are more corrupt than others and require cleansing others are fine as is.
For example Fuyuki was extremely corrupted, which is why there was only one non-corrupted servant (aside from Mash and any the PC brings) in that entire singularity. Orleans was also particularly corrupted (hence Jalter's Existence), but Okeanos was not corrupted.
The corrupted Grails in those cases were due to those who wished on them, not the actual Grails themselves. Orleans was corrupted because of Gilles making the wish, while Fuyuki was corrupted by Saber Alter.
... I think you're reversing cause and effect in Orleans.
I'm assuming we're talking about the Fuyuki Grail, post-IIIrd War. Other AU Grails aren't necessarily the same, although I'd ask the Fate Experts.
Have either some form of corruption or are at least Monkey's Paw like wishes.
Apocrypha's Grail was fine, right?
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The event of creating the Apocrypha timeline is pretty much an alternate version of the event who started the whole problem, with the Einzberns summoning Shiro Amakusa as a pseudo-Ruler instead of Avenger Angra Manhyu, and henceforth stopped it from happening.
There was the Fate/Apocrypha grail war where there were two teams each having one of the seven standard servants (one for each team). There was also the Extra/Extella versions where there was no particular limit to the servants summoned, but that involved the Moon Cell. Then there are also the Grand Orders which allow multiple servants of any class.
However, the teaming up in a Grail War would increase the likelihood of a Ruler getting involved, especially if it was to overthrow the Grail War System.
Or is it more of a 'bad/interesting/Dwarf-Fortress!Fun' thing?
Because I know nothing about this whatever-it-is except what's been in this thread.
hS
Normslly, when a Ruler shows up, it's to put things in order, because somebody's been messing with the rules or something. As ypu would be the one doing the messing, they would, one way or the other, try and put things back the way they 'should' be. Of course, this might be better than thed alternative. The only case in which a Ruler was summoned, not to make the War occur properly, but to fight in it, he tried to destroy all the evil in the world without killing the people that evil was a part of. It is very good he was stopped.
Also, is it just me, or if we of the PPC ended up in a War against each other, would we immediately activate an Apocrypha situation?
Are your Rulers somehow powerful enough to avoid being a) picked up by both feet and b) headbutted into submission? And on the arbitrary assumption that the clan were able to take it down, what would happen next?
I have no idea what an Apocrypha situation is, but it does sound like something we'd do.
hS
The only thing really strong enough to hurt a servant is another servant. Not even the strongest of masters can really face a servant (I think there might be a few that did very briefly) and I'm not sure the summons would be strong enough to do damage.
But Rulers are a whole different animal. Spoilers for Fate/Apocrypha follow.
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One of the servants in Apocrypha was Lancer of Black, True Name Vlad III. In the Fate universe a servant's strength is based on the location the grail war is taking place and the strength of their legend. Apocrypha took place in Romania. While the fight occurred in Romania he was arguably the strongest servant. He got taken out of Romania and was forced to use his second noble phantasm. Legend of Dracula. Which turned him into the strongest Vampire in existence. He was basically able to rag doll the servants present including Karna, Achilles, and Atalanta shrugging of all attacks. He meets one Ruler and retreats encounters the second Ruler and is curb-stomped in about five seconds.
Likewise Assassin of Black, True Name Jack the Ripper. None of the other Servants were fairing well against Jack especially once it went into her Reality Marble. Ruler defeats Jack easily breaks the Reality Marble and then is able to completely shrug of Atalanta's Attack and takes no noticeable damage when she later faces Atalanta's Noble Phantasm.
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To be fair to everybody who got thrown around by Vlad, his weakness in that case was specifically holy weapons, and I can think of three Rulers off of the top of my head, and all easily qualify as having them.
As for Jack's Reality Marble - Jeanne is basically immune to curses, and I'm pretty sure both Traumere and Maria qualify to some extent, and the other Servant in that Reality Marble was Atalante. I don't think you could intentionally build something better at shattering the poor woman.
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Firstly, Rulers often (or even always) have incredibly powerful Noble Phantasms and Skills. Jeanne D'Arc's Luminosite Eternelle is basically a Universal Attack Nope, and her La Pucelle could have destroyed the Greater Grail if Amakusa (another Ruler) hadn't used his Big Crunch to stop it. This is on top of things like being able to tell the True Names of any Servant and having their Command Seals, which they can use on any Servant. So, even if you beat them, you probably won't live to tell about it.
As I understand it, though I could be wrong, it's basically when the Grail is controlled by one party entirely, and they, for the moment, at least, are not interested in fighting over it for whatever reason. In our case, the party would probably be the PPC, and while there are differences from the Yggdmillennia case, at the end of the day, if seven of us were chosen as Masters, there would, in all likelihood, be no war. Thus, the PPC would be placed against some other organization, who would have seven Masters of their own so that blood would actually be spilled.
I think there would be three possibilities.
1. Apocrypha. Basically the PPC's masters would coalesce to one team and the grail would then choose another 7 masters and it would be team based until the end.
2. Grand Orders. The only rule is survival, Rulers can be summoned by masters, etc. This is an all out Grail interceding to prevent complete and utter destruction of the world/universe
3. Extra/Extella. Hundreds of Masters all competing for the Grail eventually a stalemate will occur or one will be left standing.
Are we using the Fuyuki Grail War system? Because if not, the summoning conditions can be changed.
That if the Grail thinks that one of the masters is cheating, it tends to fight back, which means that in our PPC Grail War we met get a Ruler Class summoned which throws everything for a loop.
... I say 'entertainment'.
Also: you say 'ruler', my Feegles say 'Nae king! Nae quin! Nae laird! Nae master!'
^_^
hS
There's a phenomenon in Civ 5 called the Carpet Of Doom, in which a high-level AI builds up a frighteningly vast military and shows up with it basically covering most of the map. I think this is what's happening.
Also, you're more vulnerable to teleporters than you think. Your clan might not be bound to the rules, but your Kelda is. You're going to need at least some manner of bodyguard, and against a Ruler class, you might not be able to muster enough defence to ensure the Kelda's safety.
Saitama, from One Punch Man.
The raw power on display in OPM makes it a prime candidate for entry into the Nasuverse and, well, there's already a Grail Wish that'd get Saitama on board:
He wants a challenge. The Grail can give him one, even if the War can't.
God help us all.
I've explained my first choice here. My second choice is Suicide from Gates of Fire (that's the original, not the PPC agent, though that would be fun, too).
My first impulse was that he'd be a Berserker, but I think there's a good case for him being a Lancer. His weapon of choice is the darning needles (basically short spears), for starters, but more than that, Lancer is a pretty well-rounded class, and he's a pretty well-rounded guy. In addition to being unstoppable in a fight, he's also a battlefield medic and a bit of a philosopher (if you can ever get him talking enough to show it). The thing that sets him apart is that he just won't freaking die, and I reckon that qualifies for a Noble Phantasm. You'd basically have to throw an entire army at him to stop him once he gets going, and even then you might not kill him. Luck and possibly the gods are on his side.
~Neshomeh
So, speaking of PPC Agents - if your (and this is a general you, although I'll admit to a fair bit of curiosity as to one particular agent of Neshomeh's) Agents were to somehow wind up as Servants, what classes do you think they'd end up as? And, assuming you feel like doing the work to go over everything, what do you suppose their stats, Noble Phantasms, and Skills would be? I'll probably post my conjectures about mine later, when I get off my butt and do the work for it have the time, but I'd like to see what other people think of theirs.
If you feel like checking them out, on this page, there's a table with the base stats for the core Servant classes, although you have to scroll down a bit, and on this page, you can find a very large list of skills from which you might derive inspiration. The Class Skills for the seven core classes are as follows:
Saber: Magic Resistance, Riding
Lancer: Magic Resistance
Archer: Independent Action, Magic Resistance
Rider: Riding, Magic Resistance
Assassin: Presence Concealment
Caster: Item Construction, Territory Creation
Berserker: Madness Enhancement
Naturally, I remember almost none of what we came up with, but let's start with the easy ones:
Jenni: Obvious Caster is obvious. Obvious Reality Marble is also obvious. Not that it will help you get out once you're in it...
Gall: Rider, with her dragon as her Noble Phantasm.
Derik: Three possibilities:
- Original Recipe: Rider, with Noble Phantasm like above.
- Extra Crispy: Berserker, what with trading sanity for smashing things with a hammer being his current MO. His Noble Phantasm means he sometimes comes over all Opera-Ghosty and might strangle things with a guitar string from the shadows instead.
- Honey Glazed: Saber. Smashing things with a hammer while perfectly sane and possibly reading your emotions to get the upper hand. Noble Phantasm... I dunno, this character arc is only just starting. ^_^; There is an idea I'm toying with: You know that "trading an eye for wisdom" thing? That is totally what happened to him in the Reality Room. It wasn't deliberate, but it's funny as heck now that I'm aware of it. So like, to extend that theme, maybe some sort of trade-off of present perception for greater awareness? I'unno.
Nume: Assassin. He will sneak up on you and jab you with a syringe full of liquid salt, and you'll never see it coming. He's just a geek in a pinstripe shirt. His Noble Phantasm is encyclopedic knowledge of anything he gets a chance to study. Yes, he's been studying you. No, you don't get any last words. Shh, shh. Only dreams now.
Ilraen: We debated this one a bit, but I think he's a Saber. It suits his personality, and the blade comes attached! I haven't figured out a Noble Phantasm yet.
I don't have time to get into skills and all the rest, but if you want to, have at it!
~Neshomeh
... something about the way you describe Nune makes me feel like instead of the classic Presence Concealment, or perhaps in addition to it, he would have the Espionage skill - you may notice him, but after all, he's just a geek in a pinstripe suit. What's he gonna do?
The ultimate pacifist summon: Farscape's Pilot (and living ship Moya), Rider class. Noble Phantasm: Starburst. Strategy: Run away. Really, really fast. Maybe in a way that leads our opponents into a cunning trap, if we're lucky. ^_^
If I had to pick one of the crew... 'Course D'Argo would make a great Berserker or Saber, depending on which season we're in; and you could pick Zhaan as a Caster or Chiana or Rygel as an Assassin; Aeryn would have to be a Rider (flies ships good) or an Archer (shoots guns good), I think... but I gotta go with Crichton. He'd be a Rider, because he flies a one-man spacecraft of his own invention, sometimes through wormholes. His Noble Phantasm is a galaxy-devouring wormhole weapon. You don't wanna be standing too close to that when it goes off.
A really strong choice might be Scorpius as a Caster, on the principle that sufficiently advanced science is indistinguishable from magic. Noble Phantasm: Aurora Chair—we now know everything about you and your plans, thanks! But since he would absolutely betray me if he thought it would further his own goals, that's a BAD choice.
Could also go with Crais as Berserker or Rider, depending. The latter would be pretty awesome, but too spoilery to go into in detail.
Holy Grail War in Space!
~Neshomeh
Now, there are a couple of fantastic options here. Of course, I could summon Iskandar in the rider class. Because Fate is a work of fiction, and while he's based on a real character, he's definitely fictional.
Magnus The Red could be summoned as either a Caster or a Beserker—although I'd hew Caster, myself. So there's that.
Ahzek Ahriman could be summoned as a Caster, or an Avenger. Again, Caster is probably the better of the two, at least for me.
Another Caster I could summon is Masterharper Robinton. Because why not? Actually, the answer is that he's not on the level of the other spirits he'd be facing. So it may not be the best idea... But you'd get to see Robinton!
So there are a lot of them... but I'd probably go for Ahriman or Iskandar at the end of the day. Ahriman has a shockingly wholesome reason to want the grail, and while both of them could be damaging to the world at large, I trust both of them more than Magnus, who might try to start some kind of psychic eugenics program.
He'd be a Caster the same way that Shakespeare is a Caster in Apocrypha, and while at first glance it might seem like there's a massive power discrepancy between him and many of the other characters mentioned so far, lemme explain why I think it doesn't matter.
The Caster class isn't about martial power, it's about magic and manipulation. Caster!Robinton is going to use magically-amped song, story, and sheer charisma to persuade you to his point of view. We don't have to fight, you know. Surely there's a better way to settle things. And, if we get the Grail, things will be better for everyone. Come, have a glass of wine with me and listen to what I propose...
And, if that doesn't work, there's always his Noble Phantasm, which I'm gonna call Friends in High Places. One thing that marks Robinton out as a unique person is that even the dragons of Pern recognize him and honor him. Dragons spoke to him to keep him from slipping away after his heart attack—and that's not a thing they just do, ever. If he gets into trouble, guess who's coming to help? ^_^
I reckon he'd be on board with my wish, too, which I've put a lot of thought into. As I understand it, the Grail can only carry out your wish by means you yourself are capable of imagining, so with the help of the Masterharper, I'm gonna come up with an air-tight way to ask for all the governments of the world to be bound to prioritize education for all, health & safety & civil rights (these things are intrinsically linked), and the environment henceforth. That way, we MIGHT be able to pull ourselves out of the mess we've made of things without any overly drastic upheaval.
~Neshomeh should remember not to drink caffeine at night.
I actually did think of that. The thing is, Robinton is definitely willing to die for his beliefs. But is he willing to kill for them? Is he willing to look people in the eye, many of whom he may consider good and honorable, and deceive them, lead them to their deaths?
I don't know if he'd do it.
Also (FS/N spoilers: You're fine if you've played Fate route, watched DEEN, or seen UBW) Gur tenvy vf npghnyyl pbeehcgrq hayrff gur onggyr vf frg orsber gur 3eq UTJ. Fb vg qbrfa'g znggre vs lbh pna guvax bs n tbbq jnl gb qb vg, gur erfhyg jvyy fgvyy or orag, jnecrq, gjvfgrq, naq rivy.
Why is spoilers of Heaven's Feel, so I'm not going into it (although it is vaguely alluded to in Zero).
But this is an ideal world, so don't worry about that.
As Shiro points out, there's no rule that says you HAVE to kill the other Masters, and as for the Servants, they're spirits. At worst it's banishment back to wherever they came from. I reckon there's a song for that, so it doesn't have to be cruel or bloody. ^_^
That thing you point out could be a problem, in which case the only solution is, again, Shiro's. That's fine, too.
~Neshomeh thinks winning by compromising your principles is actually losing. Sorry, Ahriman; sorry, Kiritsugu.
You don't have to kill the masters, but the servants (at least, those copies of the heroic spirits) have to be killed. Otherwise the war can't function.
So here's the plan: Win over what allies we can, hopefully as many as three—the Grail seems to manifest with that many Servants remaining. Let the rest fight it out like they're so determined to do. It's almost guaranteed that most of the people who choose to get involved in the war are ruthless and fixed on their own goals, so that's likely to be the majority. It sucks, but so does the whole thing in the first place.
I thought about the possibility of disabling other teams by persuading the Masters to give up their command seals, too, but that doesn't seem to dissolve the contract, so might not be all that effective.
In any case, no deceit is required. Just the right words in the right ears.
~Neshomeh
... in the Servant Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart is. Although perhaps his music might even be powerful enough to count as a sonic attack, if push comes to shove, as that's how I interpret Mozart's attacks.Of course, it might be that I don't want Robinton compared to Shakespeare because how dare he do that to Berserker!
I've got three choices in mind here:
-Harry Dresden as Caster class Servant.
--Revan from Star Wars as a Saber, (although he might fit in another class. Maybe Caster because Jedi, or Rider for the armies he commanded...)
-Persona 5 Protagonist, with Assassin as probable fit (maybe Caster to account for the Personas, dunno if he could fit other classes...)
Skaffen-Amtiskaw, Special Circumstances drone, as an Assassin.
... or if this would somehow get through without a massive nerf (not sure how Fate works) Rider OU Falling Outside The Normal Moral Constraints (because I'm pretty sure Culture Minds in a starship are Riders, and they were involved in a rather nice fight scene).
Thoth suggested Caster Angleton (from the Lanudryverse), but I like the planet mostly intact.
- Tomash
... you tell that last to Karna and his Noble Phantasm.
Caster Angleton would be pretty safe, Beserker Angleton would ruin the place.
Several more if I'm allowed to summon my own characters, but that seems a little bit... weighted, somehow.
The first idea is Izaya Orihara from Durarara!!, as an Assassin. It's only fitting for an information broker and known-manipulator-of-an-entire-district-of-Tokyo, after all.
The second idea is something some people will probably consider cheating: Briar Moss (AKA Roach) from Tamora Pierce's Circle of Magic series, dual-classed as Caster/Assassin with emphasis on his Caster side. After all, just because he's a reformed thief doesn't mean he ever lost his edge, as he loves to remind people.
Nagisa Shiota from Assassination Classroom - as an Assassin, obviously. Both a sweet kid and an incredible assassin, and, I recall, an excellent teacher.
If I were to restrict myself to Fate, I'd summon Karna, a Lancer Class servant.
Outside of Fate, though, I could have some real fun. Hiccup Haddock, Rider Class Servant from HTTYD. Riding Toothless the Night Fury as his Noble Phantasm, most servants will only get to hear the telltale shriek before they get blasted.
We are currently arguing over a number of things - for one, certain characters, like Sherlock Holmes, James Moriarty, and Edward Dantes are off-limits due to having already appeared in certain properties - Grand Order comes to mind. Therefore, is it possible to summon alternate versions of them? And is it possible to summon other characters from the same story?
For the first, I'd argue not. A character who is essentially Sherlock Holmes is, well, Sherlock Holmes at core, regardless of what's being used as a variation. They are absolutely linked to the character of Sherlock Holmes, and thus cannot be summoned - regardless of any Class issues that may emerge.
for the second... I'd be generally against it, given that both Moriarty and Holmes can be summoned, but I would personally be more flexible on individual cases.
What about Gods? After all, in Fate, Divine Spirits are a thing. However, if a spirit is Divine, then it's generally too powerful to be made a Servant. E.G., you won't get Zeus showing up, and Artemis only sneaks her way in because she basically makes herself into Orion, stats-wise. On the other hand, there are a few entities - for example, Stheno and Euryale - who are divine, but are also so weak that being made into Servants is a distinct upgrade for them. Thus, what is to be done with gods?
I'd argue that the higher-tiers are out. You're not getting around this one by summoning, say, Hades from Disney or Percy Jackson and then just releasing the Underworld on your opponents, and for that matter, those who are able to go up against gods, at least lesser ones, might be out too. For example, the Dresden Files' Queens Titania and Mab, as of Changes which is where I'm at, are probably out.
On the other hand, if you've got a really, really weak god - for example, isn't there a god in Discworld who is left near-powerless due to having only one person who truly believes in him? - you might get away with sliding them into one of the classes, but it might be best if you didn't, as they're probably going to be pretty weak.
That Bathory and Charmilla are also summonable, despite one being the inspiration for the other. Also, multiple versions of Arturia have been summoned in the same class, so I'd say it would be totally possible to summon different versions of the same character.
... of these characters don't exist, but that they're so similar as to be discounted if we're supposed to be using characters of our own thoughts, rather than just borrowing ones from Fate. After all, the Bathories and Carmilla are all very much related, and all acknowledge this. Repeatedly. Usually by trying to stab each other.
I summon Basil of Baker Street!
Even though, as memory serves, he lives... in Sherlock's wall, actually, he's so linked with Sherlock that you could basically say he is Sherlock as a mouse. Then again, you could go ahead and summon Sherlock as a mouse, given that i think that even as a Servant, he'd get squished.
I summon the Champion of Slaanesh and Lord Commander of the Emperor's Children, Lucius the Eternal! His disgusting personality will ensure that anyone who kills him will take some pride in it, meaning he will possess them and become my servant. All he has to do is lose all the time and I'll win.
He would likely be a Saber given his status as master swordsman, tho Assassin is also a possibility given how he can potentially 'kill' anyone that kills him.
That characters existing in the Fate Universe as servants are probably off the table. Otherwise I would go Arthur/Artoria as Saber or Gilgamesh Archer.
While I want to say Dumbledore or Gandalf as a Caster, I feel like it would be against my actual fighting style. So I think I'm going to go with Yoda as Saber (though he could be summoned as a Caster as well)
I would be trying for Artoria - Saber or Mordred - Saber, though Gilgamesh - Archer.
Though now that I'm thinking about it I might go with Ryougi Shiki Saber or Assassin (unless that's cheating since she was featured in FGO)
Having consulted the local Fate nerds in the Discord chat (bless ya, Thoth and Granz and Remnant), it has been concluded that he would either be a Berserker or a Rider, with him being kinda nuts and all and also having a ship.
I'm not sure how this setting works at all, and whether or not a theoretical Rider Ahab would have the entire Pequod. But that sounds mad cool.
He could be a Lance-class Servant if you count a harpoon as a lance.
-Phobos
Given that harpoons are typically thrown Archer is also possible.
He's, at the most, the guy with the lance. Harpooner sits next to him, hits the whale, gets in close, and he tries finishing it off.
Can't recall if he ever throws a harpoon. Hm. He might, at the end of the book.
Queequeg or such might fit that more, being that he's one of the harpooners.
Good grief. There's a whole chapter dedicated to him making a harpoon for himself, and it's real cool.
Pardon me!
Probably not archer-et, still, but.
Medusa doesn't actually ride anything in her legend so I'd say it's still a possibility.
Sure, she doesn't ride anything, but she is the mother of Pegasus, which I'd wager is probably a more intense connection than Ahab has with a harpoon?
Ahab's last act was stabbing the White Whale with a harpoon so Lancer is viable.
Realistically Ahab would be Avenger first (Fate/Strange actually has Ahab saying he would be an Avenger), Rider (all seafaring servants are Rider Eligible), Berserker, or Lancer
He's definitely Avenger Class.
We talked about it for a while, and multiple people pinged him pretty quickly as an Avenger.
One of the Manga (I think it was Prototype) he was an Avenger Servant.
Um... alright. Let's see... actually, I have a question - does a character's repute in our world make a difference in their power? Or perhaps their repute in their home universe? Because that makes a difference and the latter probably nerfs all Assassins to oblivion. Even moreso than usual, anyways.
I summon Jeanne Alter to wreak death upon my enemies! Hush, Grand Order me. My general inclination is to go for Caster or Assassin. Caster because magic is awesome, and Assassin because then I can steal the Holy Grail and hide it or make a wish before anybody else can, and then nobody has to die! My villainy is unmatched in this world!
But, anyways. Assuming I'm fighting... I've got a few ideas. One that's been recommended to me due to probably having a similar wish would be Asriel, of Undertale. To be clear - not Flowey. Asriel. He'd be, in all likelihood, a Caster-class Servant, and assuming his Noble Phantasm didn't disqualify him, it would probably be to assume his God of Hyperdeath form. Not only is that going to be rather difficult to defeat, he'll get stronger each time he defeats someone. Considering how much a human soul does for a monster, you have to wonder what a Heroic Spirit's does. And then, at the end, everything gets fixed because bleep you war. ... This is assuming he could ever be persuaded to actually participate, which is unlikely and which I honestly wouldn't mind if the other Masters and Servants would leave me out of it.
But, let's see... beyond that... most classics are out. I don't know many, and I'm pretty sure a magic lance would reach out from my phone and stab me if I tried to say Dracula. But... hm. Trisanna Chandler, Caster-Class, from the Circle of Magic. Hope you enjoy getting lava in your face!
I suppose I could take the Mary-Anne route to justify summoning, say, Maka and Soul, Lancer-Class Servants, or Death the Kid with Liz and Patty, Archer-Class Servants. Or I could basically ask for my own death and summon the Berserker Asura. Which... I wouldn't do, because I don't particularly feel like passively being involved in the destruction of cities. Of them, I think I'd probably opt for Maka and Soul.
There's also Harry Dresden, Caster-Class Servant, but... let's just say a book I just read slightly sours me on that idea. But he might work.
As I've assembled far too many and need to go back through everything I've ever read or watched, I suppose I'll let it go for now. It feels like the perfect Servant is sitting just out of thought's reach, though.
If their reputation does matter, then what universe are we fighting in? Or are the battlegrounds designed that each Servant gets the full power offered by their reputation at the seat of their power?
Jehovah
For real tho, the Raven King from Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell. Caster class.
There are canonical servants from works already (Holmes, Moriarty, Phantom of the Opera, Frankenstein) but you could just summon a different version of them.
For example, I could summon the Holmes from Sherlock, or the one from Elementary. Or I could summon Sherlock Gnomes.
And his trusty sidekick, Wilson?
... Actually, I have no idea how that would work. And he'd be a pain in the ass anyway. {= /
~Neshomeh
Most intellectuals are summoned as the Caster Class, see Edison, Tesla, and Sherlock Holmes (When not a Ruler).
How does that actually manifest as useful abilities? He can diagnose the other players' non-existent illnesses really well, and then what? Attack with his cutting sarcasm?
... Wait, that might work. Part of his whole thing is knowing right where to poke a sharp verbal stick when he wants to. Give that magical empowerment, and it could cripple the opposition. And then the playing field is, um, equally abled? {= )
~Neshomeh
Sherlock Holmes (Ruler), since House and Holmes are basically the same person.
His skills would probably be Natural Insight, which basically functions as you described.
He would probably have Deductive Reasoning which in the Fate World (at least FGO) which would translate knowing where better to strike and make it easier to resist enemy effects.
I would also guess he has Intuition as a skill as well basically translate to hitting more vulnerable targets, perhaps with surgical precision.
Noble Phantasm would probably make his base attacks stronger or his master's mage craft stronger.
Another 40k character. Cypher to be exact. Definitely an Archer as he focuses on wielding ranged weapons...twin pistols, one bolt and one plasma. He also has a C'tan phase knife, and doesn't. He kinda broke physics with it
Confession: I know next to nothing about Fate beyond what Thoth's told,me and I've watched maybe two episodes od UBW. So feel free to correct me.
Because in that case, I'm going to call on the Bad Wolf entity from Doctor Who. Caster class, natch.
But what form would they take? Would they be Rose during her time with 9, Rose in the anniversary special, or would it manifest as the words 'Badwolf' randomly popping up everywhere?
...Rose after absorbing the Time Vortex at the end of the first season. "I am the Bad Wolf. I create myself."
Would probably be the Foreigner Class. Which their class requirement is defying the madness upon coming in contact with an "Elder God"
Foreigner it is, then? I'm afraid my main knowledge of Fate is from popcultural osmosis. :P
I am more familiar with Fate and the Nasuverse than many, and even I didn't know about Foreigner. And those classes don't usually participate in a Grail War (although there's nothing that says that they can't, AFAIK...).
I just read Phobos' original post. He specifically asks which of the "seven standard classes" they are. So Foreigner is disqualified.
Or would you suggest something else?
The only alternative I could think of is Beserker (on account of the fact that Bad Wolf is very much Rose sacrificing sanity for power. But it feels wrong.
I'll go with a 40k character. I'm trying to summon Shas'O Kais, Tau one man army. I'm pretty sure he has the Archer class.
