There weren't clear instructions.

Subject: There weren't clear instructions.
Author: Bram
Posted on: 2019-05-24 16:52:00 UTC

As I pointed out in what you unkindly call a screed after giving that as the way to resolve things, I also pointed out that someone commented that other people also make that mistake.

Are you even trying to listen to what I'm trying to get across, or just picking out the parts that confirm your bias? (Before you blast that back at me, you're welcome to try to explain things to try and change my mind.)

Since you don't even know my point, how about asking a specific question instead of acting like what I'm saying is too unimportant to bother with?

I have thought about where I went wrong in asking for permission, and have tried to fix the instructions to prevent someone else from having the same problems. I'm pretty sure I've volunteered to help fix the remaining problems and the offer is still open.

There weren't instructions either way at the time of what to do when you need feedback. I was working off of 'you're not likely to get permission the first time' and not taking it seriously. I really wish I hadn't posted that fake request because it resulted in bad instructions that I bent over backward to try and follow.

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Proof that Hs broke his promise. by Anonymous on 2019-05-24 13:59:00 UTC Reply

On this point:

'While I will not intend to insult you, some things may come off that way, so I insist that you not shut this down just because you feel hurt. Most importantly you must not assume my intentions or say that I am lying when I explain them.'

Agreed, provided you are willing to promise the same.

hS

This thread is now semi-locked. by Huinesoron on 2019-05-24 16:40:00 UTC Reply

As stated here, Zdimensia gets one 'last word' post reply to each open post (including this one if she really wants). Any posts other than those, by anyone, will be removed.

hS

Stop deleting things. (nm) by Bram on 2019-05-25 12:37:00 UTC Reply

You want me to stop stipulating terms? Fine. by Huinesoron on 2019-05-25 12:44:00 UTC Reply

We are now reverting to the terms agreed by the PPC Community as a whole. To whit: you, under any name, are banned and blocked, and not permitted to post any more.

hS

Actually, if someone has something helpful to add... by Bram on 2019-05-24 20:58:00 UTC Reply

You should give clemency to someone who can view the situation from the outside and suggest a decent solution.

I do think that should be an allowed thing in all conflicts, letting someone speak up without fearing that it will damage their reputation.
sorry, wrote my post and didn't refresh before seeing this. (nm) by Grundleplith on 2019-05-24 16:44:00 UTC Reply

Stop. by SilverStorm0 on 2019-05-24 16:26:00 UTC Reply

No, actually. You are legitimately, factually wrong. We have listened. We have treated you fairly. Maybe the initial ban was wrong in your eyes, but it was exactly that -- in your eyes. Not ours. Also, while we may have made mistakes, we identified them and changed. You didn't.

No-one mocked you for unclear instruction. hS is a better person then I for volunteering to slog through that list of demands you want from us, and made it very, very clear from the start that all we want is to be left alone, and you made it very, very clear that, no matter what we do, you won't.

I had nothing to do with this last time I spoke to you. I wanted to understand why you were so persistent, and perhaps come to an agreement. All you did was convince me that no such thing would happen. Even after all this time, you still haven't stepped back and looked objectively at what's happened. Maybe you can't. I had nothing to do with you, but you managed to turn me away from wanting anything to do with you. Perhaps this may help you understand that you are not in the right, but alas it is doubtful.

Just... leave us alone. You'll never get want you want from us, because what you want is unreasonable.

I will not be responding to any replies you leave.
Okay, I'm sick of this. by Huinesoron on 2019-05-24 15:07:00 UTC Reply

This is the complete transcript of that conversation, which you persist in picking and choosing random lines from to try and present your lies as truth. You know perfectly well the reason I shut that discussion down, so quit this game of claiming you don't.

People have tried talking to you. So many people have tried talking to you, listening to you, discussing with you. You have been heard out. We just don't agree with you.

I am well aware of what you've been posting to Reddit: the way you've taken my words and Neshomeh's out of context (the context being that we are all way past the end of our tether with your constant harassment) to try and get sympathy, and have still largely failed; the way you've sought out people to harass us on your behalf; the way you have been told by literally dozens of people with no connection to the PPC that the way to deal with the 'narcissistic bullies' is to leave them behind.

And that really is all you have to do. I know of only one instance when someone from the PPC came after you elsewhere, and as soon as we knew, we said on the Board that it was inappropriate. Just go away, and the PPC will never bother you again.

Do you know how sorely tempted I've been to go to your forums, when you're actually attacking me on them, and give them the evidence of how big a liar you are? But I haven't, and I never will. Hell, I'm not even going to tell you to stop - go on, keep casting me as the villain for not wanting to get into an endless discussion about whether Neshomeh and Eatpraylove both using the word 'second' is some kind of plot against you. I hope the endless series of 'you haven't really given enough information to know what's going on' responses makes you deeply happy inside.

But leave us alone. Please. For the love of God. Just go.

hS

Response by Bram on 2019-05-24 15:37:00 UTC Reply

People here have persisted in picking and choosing what they will listen to in order to twist my words, and I have complained more than once, and I have said at least once to stop twisting things.

You tried to insist that I promise you to give you what you want whether or not I get what I want. In theory, you could call me a liar and a troll and insist that I promised to leave you alone. I'm not going to list the options of what will convince me to leave you alone, because you might come up with something palatable to us both that I haven't thought of. The short version is that I want to be treated fairly, or that other people be called out for not being held to the same standards as I.

All of the conversations got shut down because someone got insulted and didn't even wait for an apology. I do have tone problems that I didn't know about, but it still looks like every one of those people can't handle criticism.

Go ahead and confront me on Reddit. Right now, there is a hierarchy where it's hard to disagree with the leadership. You've acknowledged that there is a problem with some people having more authority, and it's been brought up that people who have been here longer can get away with more. Out in the wild, someone might be willing to tell you that you're wrong.

You don't get to pull the "end of our tether" crap on me because I have been for more patient and gotten crap for finally getting angry enough to say something.

The "just go" part has not helped in the slightest. As long as I can't let my mind wander or reliably sleep, I'm going to keep bothering you, unless you can give me something else worthy of keeping it to myself.

Okay: one last shot. by Huinesoron on 2019-05-24 16:39:00 UTC Reply

-You create a Google Doc with your account of all the things that you think need to be heard. Do it however you want.

-You email me the link, and tell me whether you would prefer me to use your instance of the doc or create an identical copy of it.

-The Doc is posted to your Wiki User page, prominently positioned in the header, and repeated at the end of the page.

-The rest of the page will remain as-is, a list of links to posts made by or about you. It will be updated to include both this thread and a direct link to the transcript of our previous discussion, and then not changed again (except once).

-When it is posted, I will post here on the Board informing people in neutral language that your full account has been posted, and that they can read it if they want to know your view of what happened.

-If anyone has anything positive they wish to say to you (including both apologies and compliments), I will ask that they do so publically on that thread. If they have anything they wish to discuss with you, I will ask that they email you at an email address you provide. The thread will be actively moderated; any non-positive comments made about you on it will be removed. The thread will be linked from your User Page so everyone can see anything positive said to you.

-Any changes to the PPC will happen according to our normal procedures; people will be free to suggest whatever they choose.

-If asked about you after that point, we will not offer any commentary, but simply state that you are a banned user and direct people to the Wiki userpage.

-At no point following your agreement to this deal will you post on any PPC community space, except if we fail to hold up our end of the deal. (This is just a restatement of the ban you're already under; it's not a new condition.)

What does this get you? It gets you as much closure as you will ever receive. You get to say whatever you like, and have it publically displayed forever. If you maintain control over the Doc, you can edit it if you think of a way to say things better, or if people tell you something is unclear. Anyone who's willing to read it, and comes away feeling they need to apologise, will do so, and do so publically.

It also removes the purported threat of authority as far as we're able. You get to use your own words, and the only things people will see being said about you are positive ones. Anyone who wants to talk to you directly will be able to do so, and no-one will know whether they've done so unless either they choose to say as much on the Board, or you choose to update the Doc to say so.

It also contains an assurance that no 'lies' will be said about you. We won't talk about you, and if you come up (eg if a new member asks about you), your account will be the first thing they see when they're directed to look you up.

Please take this offer. It is absolutely the best you're going to get.

Please also understand that whether or not you take it, I'm going to resume blocking you tonight. You get one reply to each post in this thread that you haven't yet done so - that's this post, this, this, and this - and then no-one, whether you or anyone else, will be permitted to post on it again. (One exception: I will post confirming the deal, if you have agreed to it, and making it clear the thread is locked.)

Everyone else: please stop replying now. I'm sure Zdimensia can provide her email if you have something you want to say to her.

hS

This is unacceptable. by Bram on 2019-05-24 20:23:00 UTC Reply

This does not invite a back-and-forth to clarify what I mean. You are rolling things back to a one-and-done that can be twisted and doesn't put forward how badly I was treated. I can see now that I should insist on a ban hearing for anyone still here that was involved.

If something comes up that I neglected to apologize for or was unaware of, I'll take what responsibility that I should. However, at this point I'm owed a lot of apologies for things that were ignored or where other people lied about me.

I think that you shouldn't be allowed to forget me because it allows others to be bullied without realizing how bad some people here are. Even if people involved get banned, it still doesn't address the root problems that caused the mess up.

Since you haven't shared my email, Bramandintook at gmail still works.
You do not get to dictate terms. by Bram on 2019-05-24 17:24:00 UTC Reply

I will not be held to a deadline on time, or simply one reply per post. As it is, I want to be able to process things tonight, respond in a back-and-forth manner tomorrow morning and as long as it takes, and make sure you understand what I'm telling you. You are bringing your mod powers into play by threatening to silence me again.

There are a lot of points that you've completely ignored. At least explain how it's fair that you get what you want and leave me with a pittance.

You've also lied about me. Myriad does not mean once, unless you're counting the times when people said 'I'm not going to comment' as if I was supposed to understand that they were offended. You also said that I was a nazi sympathizer when I wasn't. I'm sure you're the one who called me unapologetic when I have apologized for things I didn't even do and was offering to fill in the gaps. As far as not changing, I have offered to do what I can within the limits of being too autistic to have a innate understanding of what you're thinking. I have also changed in that I'm not so defensive about reasonable mistakes.

We haven't even addressed how my initial ban was completely out-of-line.

I expect to be able to reply to this one again, and all the rest, at my leisure tomorrow morning.

You misunderstand. by Huinesoron on 2019-05-24 17:52:00 UTC Reply

There was no time limit - just a limit on what posts will be allowed.

And you are already banned. Allowing you to post in violation of that ban is the opposite of silencing you.

Given that you chose not to actually reply to the substance of my post, yes, you may post another, actual reply to it, tomorrow or whenever.

And if you want to write a hundred thousand words calling me a liar and decrying the injustice of your ban, feel free. As described earlier, send it to me when you're done and I will put it on the Wiki for you for everyone to read.

hS

Re: You misunderstand. by Bram on 2019-05-24 18:03:00 UTC Reply

No, you said that there was a time limit. But I will let it go since you're pretending that you didn't.

And I will not let you roll things back to me just posting and letting it be misinterpreted. Back and forth until I'm satisfied that you understand where I am coming from even if you don't hold the same beliefs.

And I do expect a discussion on the original ban and whether or not you really think it was justified.

You're quite right. by Huinesoron on 2019-05-24 22:21:00 UTC Reply

I did say tonight; my apologies for not remembering that.

Since you have chosen to make the bulk of your reply posts already, I believe the only one you have left to respond to is SilverStorm0. As stated, any other posts - by anyone - will be deleted as soon as I get the chance.

hS

Still unacceptable. by Bram on 2019-05-24 22:31:00 UTC Reply

Since nothing I post doesn't get twisted around to be malicious, I have the right to keep posting until you understand what I'm trying to say.

Why was that comic deleted? Don't gaslight. by Bram on 2019-05-24 16:02:00 UTC Reply

You're mocking me for not understanding unclear instructions. Besides, this is the version of "How to Find a Beta" I had read. https://ppc.fandom.com/wiki/Beta_Reader?oldid=23498

Also, the talk page on Permission shows that you and Neshomeh talked about it as if I wasn't the only one who was a problem.

Maybe instead of just dismissing "person is confused," you should have tried to explain it and used my feedback to make the instructions better? Once I said that the instructions were confusing, the responsibility passed to other people.

I could make a comic about how people here just don't understand why I'm angry even though I keep trying to tell people.

Nope, I'm not. by Huinesoron on 2019-05-24 16:15:00 UTC Reply

What I was doing was directly stealing your idea of turning the whole thing into a comic strip. My strip was four panels directly quoting this thread, with you drawn based on Disney's Sleeping Beauty, and myself cast as Hades. That thread was chosen because you selected it in your 3000-word screed as an example of... something, I don't even know. Not of you having trouble with instructions, because there was never any instruction implying you should post saying 'Permission request' when you weren't requesting permission.

I took it down because it served no useful purpose, and I didn't think it had been up long enough for anyone to have seen it.

If you would like to create a webcomic quoting everything with all applicable context, go wild; I doubt anyone anywhere will care.

hS

There weren't clear instructions. by Bram on 2019-05-24 16:52:00 UTC Reply

As I pointed out in what you unkindly call a screed after giving that as the way to resolve things, I also pointed out that someone commented that other people also make that mistake.

Are you even trying to listen to what I'm trying to get across, or just picking out the parts that confirm your bias? (Before you blast that back at me, you're welcome to try to explain things to try and change my mind.)

Since you don't even know my point, how about asking a specific question instead of acting like what I'm saying is too unimportant to bother with?

I have thought about where I went wrong in asking for permission, and have tried to fix the instructions to prevent someone else from having the same problems. I'm pretty sure I've volunteered to help fix the remaining problems and the offer is still open.

There weren't instructions either way at the time of what to do when you need feedback. I was working off of 'you're not likely to get permission the first time' and not taking it seriously. I really wish I hadn't posted that fake request because it resulted in bad instructions that I bent over backward to try and follow.

Sigh. by Neshomeh on 2019-05-24 16:12:00 UTC Reply

> I'm not convinced the article is actually confusing as-is, since we've had all of one person (who is self-admittedly confused a lot) say so,
>
> ~Neshomeh 19:41, August 10, 2014 (UTC)

Your lack of reading comprehension is not our fault. Go away.

~Neshomeh

But yours is my fault? by Bram on 2019-05-24 16:30:00 UTC Reply

I'm pretty sure that your brain just short-circuits whenever someone tells you why they're mad at you, but let's try an easy one that I may or may not have told you before.

I am angry because you assume people can read your mind when you use vague terms, and then you turn it into their fault for not understanding you. 'Obviously I meant this definition' even though other definitions make more sense.

Are we talking about the definition of "like" again? by Neshomeh on 2019-05-24 16:33:00 UTC Reply

Okay. Explain to the class how having trouble with a thing and not wanting to do the thing cannot be correctly described as not liking that thing.

~Neshomeh

I didn't have a specific incident in mind. by Bram on 2019-05-24 21:27:00 UTC Reply

As far as guesses go, "second" would have been better.

I actually rank your reply to my concrit on a story as more important. I'm sorry that I missed the story where Ilrean became a hairless Andelite, I didn't even get to the part about the glasses before I figured out it was Nume, and you need to read more shifting-perspective fiction. I recommend Star Mother.

Heck, I've been ruminating about your "personalities don't change" thing, but I wouldn't expect you to know that.

Instead of quibbling about what obscure definition of "like" you were using, how about that you acknowledge that you should have been clearer about what you meant?

That is the issue. You can't own up to how you were expecting me to read your mind, if that is even the real problem.

Oh, but Nesh, you're gaslighting her now! by Scapegrace on 2019-05-24 16:24:00 UTC Reply

See, by providing transcripts and quotes in their full context that prove beyond all doubt that Bram is talking through her hat, you're challenging her version of events with one that can't be real because it doesn't line up to the one in her head! And that means you're doing a gaslighting! Presumably! Somehow! I don't actually know what the word means but I know that it's bad, so that must mean that you, Nesh - in your official capacity as The Bad People - must be doing it!

I am very intelligent and this means I am always right about everything, and anyone who challenges me is Doing A Gaslighting because I can never ever possibly be wrong!

This is how logic works!

Have I mentioned you're the narcissist in this conversation yet?

Scapegrace and everyone else... by Bram on 2019-05-24 16:35:00 UTC Reply

Stop making jokes. It is a bullying tactic. If you can state your point logically, things will go smoother.

Test to see if I need to start TOR again. (nm) by Anonymous on 2019-05-24 15:14:00 UTC Reply