attempting a reply-

Subject: attempting a reply-
Author: Stella Apostata
Posted on: 2022-08-27 11:37:38 UTC

So I've been overthinking on this, and right now I'm at a loss how to proceed. I get the feeling that either you are missing my point, or that I have gotten so sidetracked that it's impossible to find it any more.

Basically, I had the feeling that this would be a place where I could safely tell people that there is a problem with flagging not-English content, at least in this one instance. Since in general, US based flagging is way more sensitive than I'd register, having some major no go term just jump out of nowhere felt somewhat like a physical slap to the face.

I'd thought that people here would be open to seeing that this might cause upset. I'm not stranger to strong language, which for obvious reasons doesn't show up here. (If it helps: I didn't really register that there was swearing in TOS.) I feel rather hurt that I've not received an acknowledgment of the fact that some words are not cool to use without warning, getting the feeling that "it's not English, so deal with it". As if it was my fault and I ought to just, you know, not be upset.

I am certain that this is not the intent. I mean, opening this topic fairly early on means that I've already got some level of trust in the people here. But something has gone wrong for me during this conversation. I feel that I'm being pushed into discussing semantics and justifications, instead of people simply accepting that there is a situation where a certain wording crossed the line.

Possible solutions, finer points of definitions, all of that is part of the discussion. But to my understanding that should come after agreeing that there actually is something to discuss, that there is a hurtful thing. So, basically, the reaction to me opening up has caused me more alarm in the past days than the original discovery.

Right now, I'm not sure how to proceed. I am convinced that there is no ill intent anywhere, so I'm sure there's a way to untangle this. If it means letting it drop until we've gotten more familiar with each other, I'm fine with that. Maybe I should have simply not opened this topic before we know each others' written voices better. This one would indeed be entirely on me.

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Should have introduced myself a long time ago... by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-21 11:07:00 UTC Introduction Reply

Introducing myself here feels really weird. I've been reading PPC since late 02/ early 03, sucked in like many through all things Tolkien. Back in the day of dial-up, so on one of my very old external hard drives there may even exist my back up downloads. But I never joined the community- I don't really know why. (I think I recall being too confused by the threaded forum... but that may be my brain retconning things.)

I kind of lost track of the PPC in the later days of uni and when I really had to start working around 2006. It remained a pleasant memory, but one I'd thought to be no longer active, as some things I'd looked at over the years had stopped updating or disappeared into the great void altogether.

So I was very happy to discover I was wrong, there is a lot to read, and more great things to discover all the time. I actually have several different fanwikis open at any one time because I enjoy getting to know different worlds. In some instances, the stories/worlds have been around for decades, but I'd rather discover them now than never knowing they exist. My great thanks to all authors who take time in their writing to give enough orientation that someone not familiar with the continuum can follow along!

As almost everybody, I also have my own fragmentary writings, but they are nowhere near a stage to be shown to the world. I have to do all my betaing myself, with the help of spellcheck, translation sites, and the passage of time. With work and family, usually things then get bogged down somewhere. Perhaps one day I'll finish one of my very old Mary Sues and give her up for sporking.

That said, this got longer than what I've seen most people write around here so far. I hope that's okay? Anything else you'd like to know?

Welcome to the PPC! by OrangeFox on 2022-08-22 20:34:34 UTC Reply

Hope you enjoy your stay!
Welcome, fellow human! by Neshomeh on 2022-08-22 19:53:15 UTC Reply

Have some fresh Canon Cookies!

Regarding your comments on fandoms below, I guess I'm the chief Pern apologist around here (though far from the only Pern fan in the PPC), so I'm happy to help with any questions you have if you get into it. The Pern wiki is kind of terrible. I've thought many times about editing it, but if I start I will never stop, and I don't have the time. ^_^;

I get the impression that English isn't your first language? Out of curiosity, what is it?

~Neshomeh

Thank you! by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-23 16:23:44 UTC Reply

More cookies :-) Cookies are good.

I haven't touched the Pern books in a while, so I'll be confused on details anyhow. And, yeah, they are in German. Also, a lot of them are from the eighties, when translation of anything not deemed literary enough could be somewhat creative. As in, losing or abbreviating chapters, fully translating names so there's no chance to have a discussion without making a reference list, and usually changing the titles in such a way that there is no recognizable connection to the original title. This has gotten somewhat better, though probably not disappeared altogether.

In essence, I try to get English books in the original these days. Makes it a bit harder on the kids, but they've got to develop their own fandoms. And the watered down older versions are often somewhat more kid friendly than the originals. (No idea why, for things marketed to adults- but then, maybe the publishers thought nobody older than sixteen would read it?)

Welcome! by Scarlett on 2022-08-22 14:34:38 UTC Reply

Have a mini snek! They come with hats!

Snek is fun! by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-23 04:48:10 UTC Reply

And it has a hat, too. Nice, it can come to my office and watch me attempt to work.

Hi there! by Tomash on 2022-08-22 05:34:16 UTC Reply

Welcome to the PPC! Have two cents - they'll be useful during discussions.
Nice to meet you! by Lily Winterwood on 2022-08-21 13:18:06 UTC Reply

Have some lemming repellent! It's for protection in the murky depths of Sue-age.
Welcome, welcome! by Linstar on 2022-08-21 12:45:37 UTC Edited Reply

It’s cool to see that people who knew about the PPC in 2002/3 can come. back. Nice to have you aBoard, oldnewbie,

Hi! I’m Linstar! I always offer to beta for anyone who asks. So...if you need a beta, my email’s clickable.

You might be interested in the Permission page—it has all the info you need to know how to become an authorized PPC writer. I’d guess that it’s probably different than it was in 2006. In fact, you should check out the wiki—it has a lot of information—including an updated version of the Constitution.

What other fandoms do you have, besides Tolkien? And, gender? (I’d assume female because Stella) Uh, how’d you think up your username?

And, because I must, have an autographed physical copy of the Newbie Gifts page, signed by the Sunflower Official.

—Ls

Names and things... by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-21 19:53:33 UTC Reply

Thank you for the kind words! And the links! And your offer! (How many exclamation marks per paragraph are okay round here?)

Heh, someone asking about my name, how cool... apostata is a part of who I am, and it also sounds cool (at least I like to think so). It's not there to upset anybody, rather an affirmation to myself and others that people like this exist and don't eat kittens for breakfast (or any other meal). I've used stella as part of my name since around 2005. It kind of felt appropriate for entirely unshiny reasons and has stuck with me since then.

Fandoms- for familiarity, I'd stick to Tolkien and C.S. Lewis (despite the obvious conflict, I still enjoy). For interest, there are a lot more I'd like to get into or expand my knowledge. I probably could get around Pern, though here as with most other source materials I'm pretty much at sea with names and terms. Translation issues, basically... with English at least, I've got a chance to read the originals, but I'm not sure what my family is going to say if I need yet another room full of books we already "have". Unfortunately, a lot of translations way into the nineties were done with... poetic license?

Oh, yeah, I'm female. Human, probably. Weird, certainly.

Re: Names and things by Linstar on 2022-08-21 23:08:02 UTC Reply

I think you can put as many exclamation marks as you like. ;)

You mentioned fan wikis? Ever heard of the My Immortal Wiki? It’s a wiki dedicated to one of the Legendary Badfics, so beware. (I am an Admin there, so this is a bit of a plug.)

I didn’t know what apostata meant without a quick look-up. Uh...I don’t really get it, but okay.

Translations? Are you a native Spanish speaker? By Lewis, I assume you mean “Chronicles of Narnia,” as he has other works. I myself am familiar with Narnia, and I remember Tolkien a bit.

I’m human too. Pretty sure most of the Board is, with the possible exception of Huinesoron.

I also have a bit of general Board advice: interact! Reply to threads you didn’t start. People really like that. 😉

I’m sure you’ll fit in just fine!

—Ls

Re-2: Names and things by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-22 20:14:13 UTC Reply

Now I had to go and look at the My Immortal Wiki... another time sink, thank you :-)

I don't think beyond "apostate" there really is a translation of apostata? At least I couldn't find one. The meaning is someone who has left the Christian belief system for another one. It appears to be used in a derogatory way, but for me it's simply a descriptor, and I put it out there because it's a part of my identity- and basically, people like this exist. If someone asks me about it, I'm open for discussion, otherwise... it's nothing I'd mention unless the topic comes up organically. (I didn't realize how much I don't want to upset anybody over this until I fumbled for words just now.)

As for language, I'm German. I've had a few "whoa" moments with the curses some writers round here use in their PPC. It's also great for causing random capitalization and confused looks because of translators changing names completely (mostly in the past now, except for Pokémon).

C.S. Lewis I have read both Narnia and also the space trilogy. The third volume is too preachy and caused me a lot of eye-rolling, but I still enjoyed it.

Where are you from? I'm kind of impressed how much time you are investing in this place. How do you do this?

I'm rather limited in how much time for interaction online I've got. But I'll do my best to follow your advice. I hope no ones going to bite me for being rather rusty in this format (and overly verbose, too. It's kind of hard to apologize for something I haven't been able to change in all those years).

Reply. by Linstar on 2022-08-22 21:16:00 UTC Reply

Well, I’ve certainly lost time to the My Immortal Wiki too.

Um...again, not sure why having “Apostate” as part of your username would offend anyone. I, as a Christian, wouldn’t care if someone’s username was “PaganHeathen.”

Oh, a German. Is there less cussing in that language? Though I don’t cuss.

Huh. I’ve just read Narnia.

I’m from the States. And, uh the PPC? I just...really like it. And you should see how much time others put into this place. I’m just the Replies-to-Everything Not-so-Newbie. And in case you’re curious, I’m RumbridgeXVolzemort on the My Immortal Wiki.

Plenty of us are verbose too. The important thing is to have fun.

—Ls

On cursing by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-23 16:54:07 UTC Reply

I think cursing is a lot about what you're used to... what is considered "strong language" really varies between groups. I've noticed great variations, depending on the groups of people- kind of a sociolect thing, in places. I had to tone it down, myself, because I tend to be fairly direct and at times somewhat, hm, crusty? But if it doesn't get the message across because the tone reads differently than intended, it's better to change it.

For some reason, I've found several PPC stories by different authors using German curses. For me, this is extremely strange, because they are not toned down at all in some cases and may not necessarily fit the rating. In one instance, someone used a term that is very much in "whoa, you didn't just say this" territory. Even if it is congruent with the emotions described (rage, disgust and scorn turned to the maximum, specifically aimed at women), it rather floored me. Probably because it's not what I'd expected here.

The occasional "shit", well, that's just what people shout when they hit their thumb with a hammer, so someone saying "Scheiße" is not really upsetting. Just rather hilarious when the same text would use "frell" otherwise (again, depending on the character- if someone else does this, it might work fine).

I'm quite probably overthinking this. But, as you said, it's about having fun, and puzzling out these linguistic things is fun for me.

Yeah, see... by Linstar on 2022-08-23 17:57:54 UTC Edited Reply

You're right. Cursing is a sociolect thing.

I think PPC authors are only using German profanity because they a) don't realize how bad it is and b) assume their readers will just go "Hey, look, He's swearing in German! I have no clue what it means, so it isn't really profanity. By the way, which mission(s) did you observe this in?

Also, we tend to spoilerthings, so...can you put your use of the s-word under spoiler? I' don't think it's a mild as its German equivalent.

Also, if you want to be active? Trying commenting in one of these threads. We like that.

--Ls

If I can figure out how... by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-23 20:12:21 UTC Reply

...Sure, I'll do that. If not, I'll figure out something else for warning. Uh, I'm not so sure about the severity. It really depends on the circles people move in, I suppose. In general, most uses of strong languages don't really bother me, whether I use it myself or not. Added to cultural differences, I am generally grateful for pointers.

If I recall correctly, the "main offender" are the stories with the agent with detachable head. I can't remember her name, so I can't check for sure. The one I've referenced really really really ought to be flagged. Considering what you asked me to spoiler here, it's an Instant Banhammer level expression, so maybe I ought to try and find it. I admit, I tried to push it from my mind because it's so very out of place- a kind of cognitive dissonance and strong enough it overcomes my usual "strong language happens" attitude.

Anything else, it's sort of, yeah, it puts up the rating and makes all those "frells" read somewhat hypocritical, but not really concerning either way. It's not always possible to check the complete set of connotations, so I doubt most people would really get upset or even notice.

Anyhow, I didn't mean for this to get so... involved? If you are interested in pursueing this further, possibly we could find a way that doesn't clog up this space. I'm always up for a linguistics debate, as far as my limited knowledge allows, but I'm not sure if this is of interest to anybody else here.

As for participating elsewhere, sure, if I have something (hopefully) meaningful/funny/interesting to contribute, I will. I'm certainly reading along with great interest!

Comments: by Linstar on 2022-08-23 20:52:32 UTC Reply

There is a Style Guide if you need help with that.

Are you referring to E.V.L.? Because if so, I have to inform you of a couple things: SkarmorySilver, her author, is no longer active. That, and you can do whatever you want in missions. Only on the Board is there a PG-13 rule, though you have to warn for any content in missions. (To be clear, I’m asking mostly as a courtesy to those [myself included] who Don’t Swear.)

So...there’s not really anything that can be done about it, and most non-German speakers would never notice. As for “no one else cares”—that’s totally fine. As long as one person cares, you can post about it on the Board.

—Ls

delayed response... by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-25 20:27:32 UTC Reply

Thanks for the guide, that should help me. I kind of thought "everybody but me knows this stuff" so never checked if there's a manual. Yeah, that's the way I think at times.

As for writing as people like- sure, but 1. I do appreciate a heads up if I need to adjust my mindset, and 2. I seem to recall reading that there was a push towards reducing the graphic violence and strong language of the original iterations. Maybe that has been altered again without me knowing, or the timeline in my mind is warped somewhat, so these episodes already count into the "older" set.

Sorry about dropping off for a bit, life is happening all around and I can't promise constant interaction. I'm having too much fun with the discussions going on here to disappear again entirely, but I'd rather tell you now that it's bound to happen at times. (Also, right now I'm tired so my brain may have language malfunctions... I can't even tell any more.)

Random Response Title! by Linstar on 2022-08-25 21:26:44 UTC Edited Reply

As for writing as people like- sure, but 1. I do appreciate a heads up if I need to adjust my mindset, and 2. I seem to recall reading that there was a push towards reducing the graphic violence and strong language of the original iterations. Maybe that has been altered again without me knowing, or the timeline in my mind is warped somewhat, so these episodes already count into the "older" set.

I don’t quite get what you’re trying to say here. I think there usually are warnings on missions, and I know there’s at least one TOS mission with German swearing that doesn’t warn for it. Dunno how bad that one is.

And, uh, “episodes”? “Sets”? I’m not sure what you mean by that. Spinoff? Mission?

—Ls is a bit confused.

attempting a reply- by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-27 11:37:38 UTC Reply

So I've been overthinking on this, and right now I'm at a loss how to proceed. I get the feeling that either you are missing my point, or that I have gotten so sidetracked that it's impossible to find it any more.

Basically, I had the feeling that this would be a place where I could safely tell people that there is a problem with flagging not-English content, at least in this one instance. Since in general, US based flagging is way more sensitive than I'd register, having some major no go term just jump out of nowhere felt somewhat like a physical slap to the face.

I'd thought that people here would be open to seeing that this might cause upset. I'm not stranger to strong language, which for obvious reasons doesn't show up here. (If it helps: I didn't really register that there was swearing in TOS.) I feel rather hurt that I've not received an acknowledgment of the fact that some words are not cool to use without warning, getting the feeling that "it's not English, so deal with it". As if it was my fault and I ought to just, you know, not be upset.

I am certain that this is not the intent. I mean, opening this topic fairly early on means that I've already got some level of trust in the people here. But something has gone wrong for me during this conversation. I feel that I'm being pushed into discussing semantics and justifications, instead of people simply accepting that there is a situation where a certain wording crossed the line.

Possible solutions, finer points of definitions, all of that is part of the discussion. But to my understanding that should come after agreeing that there actually is something to discuss, that there is a hurtful thing. So, basically, the reaction to me opening up has caused me more alarm in the past days than the original discovery.

Right now, I'm not sure how to proceed. I am convinced that there is no ill intent anywhere, so I'm sure there's a way to untangle this. If it means letting it drop until we've gotten more familiar with each other, I'm fine with that. Maybe I should have simply not opened this topic before we know each others' written voices better. This one would indeed be entirely on me.

Okay… by Scarlett on 2022-08-29 21:07:25 UTC Reply

Can you please tell me which mission contains the particularly bad language/no go term? We can put a warning on the wiki next to the mission although if the author is the one I think it is, he’s inactive.
So...what *do* you want? by Linstar on 2022-08-27 19:18:27 UTC Reply

I do think that the point has been missed—and I’m not quite sure what you want. Content warnings for non-English swearing? I can see how that’s necessary, (I don’t EVER include swearing in my writings) but...what do you want? If we’re still discussing SkarmorySilver’s missions, he’s not here anymore, the most we could do is add a note to the wiki.

And yeah, having really bad words, even if in other languages, is Bad and should be warned for. Is that better?

I’m sorry if I come off as hostile, but I think that we have a bit of a language barrier—I don’t know that I quite understand all you”re saying, or vice versa.

Thank you for not assuming ill intent—that is one of the major pillars of the Constitution. I don’t think this is all your fault, but rather a case of mutual miscommunication.

I think at this point, it’d be helpful if we could get a third opinion on this.

I’d say that interacting more is definitely a good thing, by doing that you help them get to know and understand you better.

—Ls

Welcome! by Kі nо Shirayuki on 2022-08-21 11:47:42 UTC Reply

Have a thumbprint cookie!

Cookie! by Stella Apostata on 2022-08-23 04:46:04 UTC Reply

Thank you very much! I like cookies!