Subject: Aren't orcs just corrupted elves though? (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2023-12-20 13:53:54 UTC
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Guys. Please don't sue the Tolkien Estate for the Rings of Power show. by
on 2023-12-18 17:27:29 UTC
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Apparently writing fanfic and publishing it doesn't give you access to the IP. Who knew?
-Ls
(Yes this is real.)
EDIT: Have a video on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcgFl0mxBXg
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Would anyone object to me adding this to the Unclaimed Badfic page? (nm) by
on 2024-01-01 19:43:56 UTC
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Does it still count as "fic" if it's in physical book form? (nm) by
on 2024-01-02 03:55:51 UTC
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Well, I was thinking the person who writes a mission would just use the legal doc link. by
on 2024-01-02 15:42:00 UTC
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And besides, it's not the only fic that has had physical copies. pats his copy of My Immortal
--Ls
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I do want to appreciate the name "Demetrius Polychron." Shame it's attached to this. (nm) by
on 2023-12-18 22:58:51 UTC
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Been reading the sample and oh BOY is this one a ride. by
on 2023-12-18 18:34:06 UTC
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I'm only a few pages in but out of all the people to be Sue-ified, said to rival Arwen in beauty, and be given a brooch made of pure mythril called "The Star Of The Dúnedain", capitalisation not mine...
...I would not have guessed "Sam's daughter".
Edit: Since this is just actually literally fanfic and not a Fifty Shades situation, does this mean agents could theoretically kill it?
Edit 2: Glorfindel (yes, Glorfindel) is the new BBEG. Best line so far: "Of all the people in Middle-earth, Sauron hated and feared Glorfindel the most."
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Capitalisation aside... by
on 2023-12-20 16:06:05 UTC
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... Sam was given the Star of the Dunedin (LotR: Tale of Years, SR 1436), and Foster's Complete Guide to Middle-earth claims that Star was an Elendilmir, which were mithril with white gems (Unfinished Tales: Gladden Fields, note 33). Christopher says that's wrong, but it means it is from a fairly authoritative source. And Eleanor is "the Fair", and the Epilogue describes her as:
"... a beautiful girl, more fair of skin than most hobbit-maidens, and more slender, and the firelight glinted in her red-gold hair. To her, by gift if not by inheritance, a memory of elven-grace had descended."
The Tale of Years says she "looked more like an elf-maid tha a hobbit", too.
Which all comes together to make an interesting point: the author has done some research, but twisted it and exaggerated it to make it fit the fanfic, rather than altering the fic to meet the reality of Middle-earth.
hS
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Ahhh, good to know! Thanks for the correction. (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 18:00:23 UTC
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Huh. Well, good thing we have our resident LoTR expert! (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 16:43:18 UTC
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As for sample: by
on 2023-12-18 18:42:43 UTC
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Here is an about-100-pages out of 600 preview. Might be enough for a mission.
-Ls
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Thank you, court case, for the *entire book submitted as evidence*. by
on 2023-12-18 19:01:48 UTC
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https://ia801609.us.archive.org/29/items/gov.uscourts.cacd.881511/gov.uscourts.cacd.881511.37.6.pdf
Glorious.
-Ls
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I am quite distressed. by
on 2023-12-20 17:21:34 UTC
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The writing on this thing is, um, bad. There's a lot of repeating facts from Tolkien in barely-narrative or barely-dialogue. There's a prologue which is partly repeated in the first chapter. There's characters (notably Sam) who don't sound a thing like themselves. There's just kind of a general clunky feel to the whole thing.
In terms of canon, I've read to the end of Chapter 2, and:
I'm pretty sure hobbits weren't marrying at 21, given that they only reach adulthood at 33. They also don't describe their birthdays with the wrong number; the story has Elanor's 21st as her 'two and twentieth' (which they also don't do).
The Star of the Dunedin should probably not be mithril.
Ewartia Greenholm is just unbelievable, even if everyone does call her Alice for no reason.
Who in Mandos is Drendelen supposed to be? A granddaughter of Nerdanel is a granddaughter of Feanor, and nope nope nope.
I don't believe the Elves would have carted multiple sculptures from Aman to Numenor. I am positive that Elendil, in his desperate flight from the sinking island, wouldn't have packed the statues.
You can't call it the "Red Book of Westmarch" before Elanor has moved to the Westmarch with it!
The picture of the White Tree very obviously doesn't match the description.
We know how Aragorn's letters sound, and this one doesn't.
The text has Sam claiming the entire Hill for Bag-End, which would include the New Row dug after the Scouring. I can't see him turfing out poor farmers just for extra bedrooms, can you?
We also know, from the Epilogue, how Sam and his family addressed each other. It is not like this.
Slapping royal titles onto the Eldar of the Third Age is wrong-headed. Cirdan, in particular, would never do that.
The NuRing Verse has me screaming. In particular, the Enchanted Beings ring every alarm bell, while the very idea of assigning the Rings to specific peoples was Sauron's, not Celebrimbor's.
Celebrimbor did not have the level of power ascribed to him. He was an elf, he absolutely could not imbue a Ring with the Music of the Ainur. (Not could anyone. The Music is Arda.)
Ultimately this looks like a pretty standard post-LotR Hobbit-centred fic. It shares a lot of its DNA so far with The Hobbits, though there's no connection between them. Were it not for the court drama I'd just ignore it. :D
hS
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Checking up on Drendelen. by
on 2023-12-22 23:54:31 UTC
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I searched the book for other mentions of "Nerdanel's granddaughter". She seems to actually appear in the book, but not to do anything. More importantly, Celebrimbor explicitly calls her his cousin (confirming the family tree), and she has red hair.
So whose is she supposed to be? We know for sure she's not Curufin's daughter, because then Brim would be her brother. Maedhros famously had red hair, but also never married. One note by Tolkien says that Maglor and Caranthir may have been married - but neither of them have red hair to inherit.
The most likely option, yet again, is that as an artist she's supposed to be a daughter of Maglor. I feel like Dafydd needs to start a collection of his supposed kids - maybe he can paint each of their extremely deserved demises or something.
hS
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Does her name check out in any elven language? by
on 2023-12-23 21:52:02 UTC
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It kept sounding a little bit weird to me, and then...well. Turns out that if there were only an A in there, it would actually be a perfect anagram of "Nerdanel"...! So, yeah, at this point I'm definitely curious.
~Z
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I'd say plausibly Sindarised Quenya. by
on 2023-12-24 00:19:57 UTC
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If it's actual Sindarin, then it's either Dren+telen or Dren+delen; Dren- is attested but untranslated, while the other two are plausible words that don't exist. If the final letter was originally -nd and has been simplified (I think that happened at least once), then either could be a plural form, of taland or daland (also don't exist).
But a granddaughter of Feanor would have been named in Quenya, and her name would have just been re-sounded for Sindarin (as Makalaure > Maglor). Quenya doesn't have a D, so my guess is the first letter would have been an L (see Lenwe/Denweg, lár/daur). La+renda+le =Larendelë is one possible Quenya original, and could mean something like "The Disowner" - la- is a negative, renda means kindred, while -le indicates the thing that does something - eg cenda = to watch, cendele = a face. So rendele would be "a kin-maker", and the negative would make her someone who rejected her kin.
Which... would explain why she is never referred to as a granddaughter of Feanor.
hS
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Amrod or Amras? (nm) by
on 2023-12-23 05:43:41 UTC
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Also unmarried. by
on 2023-12-23 10:52:51 UTC
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Plus one of them may or may not have died without ever setting foot in Middle-earth.
In ostensible defence of the author, I will note that there are a number of women in the House of Finwe who go entirely unmentioned in any narrative. Several wives exist but are unnamed (Curufin's and Orodreth's), and Fingolfin has an older sister probably living with him during most of the First Age (Irime). So it would be possible for one of the brothers to have a daughter who just never made it into the tales.
But if only Cur, Caranthir, and Maglor were married, it would have to be one of them, and I think there are insurmountable problems with all three.
hS
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Oh my. by
on 2023-12-21 07:41:13 UTC
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It really is very bad indeed.
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Oh, please. We all know Sam hates agriculture! (/s) (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 17:59:07 UTC
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Which makes it public domain! (nm) by
on 2023-12-18 19:42:02 UTC
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IT MAKES CELEBRIAN CANON! THE BADFIC, CELEBRIAN. IT CANONIZES IT! (nm) by
on 2023-12-18 19:36:50 UTC
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We're going absolutely nuts in the Discord over this. by
on 2023-12-18 19:53:06 UTC
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Just in case anyone wants to read the backlogs...
Then the conversation switched channels and continues from here.
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I'm partially caught up on all this now, and may I just say-- by
on 2023-12-19 21:46:23 UTC
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*screams forever*
I didn't believe y'all about "C*l*br**n," but oh my Eru. {X' D
For those who don't Discord, here's the relevant passage:
Elanor shuddered and start to cry. When she looked up, tears spilled from her eyes. “Celendrian told me… her Elvish grandmother Celebrían, Queen Arwen’s mother, was captured by orcs and tormented. Elrond healed her body, but he couldn’t heal her spirit, not even after a year of trying. She sailed from the Grey Havens and passed West. That’s why she wasn’t at Elessar and Arwen’s wedding. I didn’t make the connection at the time, but…”
“That’s impossible!” Sam told her. “If something like that had happened, I’m sure we would have heard about it from Elrond long before now.”
“Why, Sam?” Alatar asked. “Celebrían was his wife. He loved her. He wouldn’t have any reason to make these painful events public. That would only have served to torment her even more than she had already suffered.”
Rosie looked up from Elanor. “Are you telling us that Celebrían gave birth to – ”
She apparently gave birth to a half Orc, half Elf baby. The fic refers to such people as Orcelven. It goes on to threaten us with the concept of half Hobbit, half Orcs, or... Horcs.
I agree with whoever it was that suggested "horc" is our newest Creative Curse. {X' D
ETA: Some variation of "Horc" is also going in Cards Against Headquarters, guaranteed.
~Neshomeh, dying.
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I read this mostly in delirium, but I think there may also have been Horcelven? (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 18:33:15 UTC
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I thought people were just afraid it could happen? Not sure, though! (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 21:59:44 UTC
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Yeah, Celebrian's orcelven kid... by
on 2023-12-27 12:43:42 UTC
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... wanted to make an army of horcs to take over the Shire. Because why send in the big hulking orc-elves when you can instead breed a half-orc, half-hobbit army to do it instead? >.>
I swear I lost a few brain cells typing that all out.
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I simply think "What the horc?" has a nice ring to it! (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 15:30:35 UTC
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It does! (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 22:11:15 UTC
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Aren't orcs just corrupted elves though? (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 13:53:54 UTC
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Yes. That's why this is so odd. (nm) by
on 2023-12-20 16:36:08 UTC
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Also, I must stress that the terms "Orcelven" and "Horc" are plain silly. by
on 2023-12-20 22:07:40 UTC
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"Elven" and "Hobbit" are English words. "Orc" is a Westron word. You can't just smash them together like that! That's what I was really reacting to. {X' D
~Neshomeh
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Yes, but no. by
on 2023-12-20 21:48:25 UTC
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I mean, on its face, the idea of interbreeding between creatures descended from a common ancestor is not that weird. Saying this is odd is like saying wolf-dogs are odd because dogs are essentially corrupted wolves. (And you can't look at a pug or a bulldog and tell me they're not.)
The problem with this is really the problem of orcs in all of fantasy from Tolkien on down: they're an "evil race," and the only way an "evil race" has offspring with a "good race" is via an act of evil. It's deeply problematic and gross—and Tolkien knew it, too. He's on record as being uncomfortable with the idea that any people could be completely evil. The only justification for it in Arda is that they were forced into being by an evil Power, so their evilness isn't due to their own culture or choices, because they weren't allowed any of their own.
IMO, one of the better things about Rings of Power is their attempt to give the orcs and Uruk-hai more nuance. After centuries of existence, and given goblins/orcs have had their own self-governed kingdoms by this time, I believe nuance could very well come to be, and in time, given the chance, they could leave the stain of their origin behind and become a real society.
I'd read the heck out of a story like that.
~Neshomeh
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Maybe "odd" isn't the best word choice. by
on 2023-12-20 22:03:26 UTC
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Migh be better to go with "poorly thought out" since we all know a fic that blatantly smashes together the titles of two LoTR books ain't gonna explore that in an interesting and nuanced way. I haven't seen Rings of Power, but that might be one of the "plagiarized" elements.
Also, this book invented "horc". There's no horcing way to possibly take that serisously.
-Ls