On the subject of SPN angels... (SPOILERS for SERIES))

Subject: On the subject of SPN angels... (SPOILERS for SERIES))
Author: Pretzel
Posted on: 2013-05-29 00:51:00 UTC

Answers to your questions, as far as I know, in order:

1.0) I don't think it really relates that way; angels in Supernatural were never human to begin with, so it's more like they're reverting to the form that they take-- their human vessels --when they manifest on Earth. Demons were once humans who had their souls marred and broken in some way, either through some sort of demonic crossroads deal or other acts of extreme violence.

1.5) We don't know; I don't think that's ever happened before.

2.0) Again, we don't know. The only angel we saw that ripped out her Grace and was reborn as a human was Anna (Anael), and she, as far as we know, never had kids. Then again, being stuck in an asylum probably didn't help that matter.

2.1) Unknown on the babies thing; Anna only started hearing 'angel radio' (Aka, the grand celestial chatter of bored angels everywhere) when another angel, Castiel, rescued Dean Winchester from Hell and proclaimed that he was saved, opening her psychic ears to what was going on.

2.2) Supernatural and religion. Right. That's... ridiculously complicated, actually. I mean, yeah, they play off the Judeo-Christian mythologies quite a bit inside the show, but it's more like cherry picked bits and pieces here and there rather than following a straight up recognizable dogma. There's also the fact that they throw in bits and pieces of other religions and mythologies-- reference 'Hammer of the Gods', episode 5.19, if you want more of an idea --all the time, so that's not much help.

3.0) It's a little of both. The tree is a physical marker of the Grace, but it doesn't disappear once the Grace is retrieved by someone.

3.1) Anna's Grace was a very large tree, but we've never seen anyone else's, so it's just a lone sample in canon. In fic, though, I've read a story where an archangel's Grace (that story's canon followed the seven archangel theory rather than the show's canon four) was actually the cause of the Great Barrier Reef. Grace = life force, so it makes sense that someone more powerful than a 'normal' angel would have a greater impact on nature.

3.2) Unknown.

3.3) Again, unknown, though I suspect the Grace itself would probably act as some sort of protective countermeasure; maybe its very presence would somehow influence people to leave said tree/organism alone?

4.0) Let's see... In canon, angels have lost their Grace due to the following:

a) Dying [which can be done only via another angel's sword or explosive means]

b) Angels abandoning Heaven due to the Judeo-Christian Apocalypse in an alternate timeline, leaving 2014!Castiel to slowly lose his powers

c) Forceful removal

d) A ritual closing off Heaven from angels (see the Season 8 season finale for more details)

4.1) Actually, we don't know much about the angelic hierarchy in the SPN 'verse, save for bits and pieces here and there. Obviously, the four archangels are the powerhouses of the whole thing (though that doesn't mean that they do a good job at it [those who are active in Heaven for any length of time, anyways]). We also know that most of the angels are arranged into garrisons, or groups of warriors. I say most, since I don't know about the cupids, or if the reapers can be classified as angels or just celestial beings. The garrisons are headed up by captains; Castiel was the captain of the garrison that broke into Hell and got Dean back.

Hope that helps!

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I return from the Circle of Lemmings. by Tawaki on 2013-05-28 03:55:00 UTC Reply

Leaves, Have But Only Two Sides by Shuckle
Legolas love story. Enjoy! Note* Only the Fellowship of the ring*
Morwen Sereg, daughter of an evil Elven lord, Dûrion-The-Dark. Crueler than most elves, no feeling of mercy graced her. But that all changed, how did a prince fall for this outcast, this exile, this rogue elf? The scorn of the elves? The Daughter of darkness itself?...And how did she ever fall for him?

My comment: Nine shall be the number of the counting...

2. Fell in love with a Prince by Faythe
This is a side of a story of Princess Arianna of Rivendell. She is the spitting image of her father, also she is the oldest sister of Arwen,
Elladan and Elrohir and she is the best friend of Aragorn. You will see the story from her point of view. Will she find love on this quest. . . . .

My comment: Agent Kai? Or whoever takes care of CAF's now? Please help Alice prepare for her aunt's arrival in HQ.

I know this is an older thread but... by Lenore Snow on 2013-06-06 02:24:00 UTC Reply

After slugging through the entire medieval torture ritual that was "Leaves, Have But Only Two Sides" (Even the title... sigh...), I have gathered a couple charges for whoever sporks it.
1.) The name Morwen, which was the name of a historical elven figure- when it is specifically stated that elves do not reuse names, and consider it blasphemous impersonation.
2.) Randomly crouching down and hissing at various canon and bit characters like Gollum with rabies for no apparent reason, and forcing poor abused Legolas to find that attractive.

(Clarifying) by Lenore Snow on 2013-06-06 02:26:00 UTC Reply

Morwen is like Gollum with rabies.
Gollum does not have rabies, and I'm reasonably sure Morwen never hissed at him, as his part was cut almost- if not completely- 100% from the story.
Badly formatted simile- my apologies.

"~~~~~~TIME SKIIIIIIIP!!!!!!!!!!~~~~~~~" by Lenore Snow on 2013-05-31 03:22:00 UTC Reply

Somewhere in the universe, Acacia just had a conniption.

Believe me, my agents heard her screaming. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-31 07:06:00 UTC Reply

That was when this one Circle Sue dragged Boromir way out of character.

*bangs repeatedly with large sledgehammer* by AelinTheAmazing on 2013-05-29 21:28:00 UTC Reply

If this is what fanfiction.net used to be like, I can see why the Original Series was written. With Circle Sues, every fic seems like it could be a troll, even though they often aren't. I swear, if/when I decide to ask for Permission...
Here's a thought. by Ekyl on 2013-05-29 01:14:00 UTC Reply

If a Sue is fully described (like in the profiles that start off these two Suefics), but the fic is in first-person perspective, do you still need a Crash Dummy or will the Sue naturally take form?

You'd still need the Dummy. by Outhra on 2013-05-29 01:33:00 UTC Reply

The reason a Sue takes over the dummy isn't due to its appearance being undescribed, and in fact, the first-person Sues can be more likely than the third-person Sues to stop all the action to talk about the way they dress.
It's the first/second person shift that causes the Sue to attempt to take over an observer, and the Crash Dummy is there to be the most susceptible observer in the room.

I remember one mission where a possessed Agent started slowly taking on the Sue's characteristics as she was described. That didn't expel her from his body, and in fact ended up making the situation worse. The first-person Sues want to drive something around.

I remember it being that way, just wanted to see what people by Ekyl on 2013-05-29 01:34:00 UTC Reply
- thought.

Hijacking this thread... by Karen on 2013-05-29 00:16:00 UTC Reply

...to let y'all know I don't have regular Internet access for a few months, so I'll be bowing back a bit in terms of activity on the Board. There's a very slim chance I'll get Internet at my apartment, but it's got a horrid bathroom and I want to move when my sublease runs out, so I prolly won't.

Sorry and stuff.
*Starts rolling on the floor laughing* by dramaticsoprano on 2013-05-28 17:23:00 UTC Reply

These have to be the most unbelievably cliched 'Sues I have ever heard of. One's an evil Elf who falls for Legolas, the other is a typical Arwen's Sister!Sue. Why this same pattern? It's so ridiculous that it ends up being funny.

I have read Circle fics even more cliched than that. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 17:26:00 UTC Reply

There's one who gets run over by a car and lands in Middle-earth, then joins the Fellowship, then romances Legolas, then makes everyone speak in modern slang, then bears an extra ring of Speshul that is just as powerful as the One, and then runs over Canon roughshod some more.

Oh, and she's an elf with purple hair.

PFFFFF. by DawnFire on 2013-05-28 18:29:00 UTC Reply

Oh, wait, you weren't kidding? Wow.

Why is it always Legolas? I mean, I know it isn't always, but why? Or do I just automatically find Sues that go after Elves, or something?

(By the way, if anyone ever finds a Sue that goes after Feanorians, preferably the older ones, and you don't want it, pass it on to me; I'd like one.)

~DF

Because... by DemonFiren on 2013-05-28 19:29:00 UTC Reply

...Legolas is PURDY.

Pretty boy. Very pretty. Therefore Sue-magnetic.

But... by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 09:34:00 UTC Reply

...he's not the only pretty boy in that film...oh, forget it. I don't understand fangirls all the time, and I don't think I really want to...

Also, hi! I don't believe we've been introduced (I've missed commenting on several welcome posts, and I think yours was one). I'm DawnFire (welcome to the Board, have some belated Gummyblee Elves and some Swiss Bleepolate--rather necessary for this fic). I've actually been wondering, a little: is it possible that you're my evil/dark twin? Only, we've got similar names, and yours has the word 'demon' in it.

Just a theory :)

~~-Eos' Flame~~ ~DF

Fangirls themselves on the subject. by AelinTheAmazing on 2013-05-31 03:43:00 UTC Reply

http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-2628.html

A thread, mostly fangirls explaining the reasons they like Legolas and involving many instances of the words "hot" and "immortal", which I think about sums it up.

Odd. by hermione of vulcan on 2013-05-31 21:22:00 UTC Reply

Because for most other fandoms, it's a character who's hot but also has many compelling personality traits. A character with problems they can fix, like a woobie or an aloof or dangerous character. I mean, think about it.

Most popular Lust Objects

Harry Potter: Draco Malfoy, the bully who is somewhat pitiable. Also rather hot to some people.

Star Trek: TOS: Spock, emotionally closed off, somewhat aloof and condescending at times. Attractive.

Star Trek: TNG: Data, who combines woobie with emotionally detached. Not even that attractive, though "fully functional". His personality is interesting enough.

Percy Jackson: Nico di Angelo, son of Hades, something of an outcast and loner. Probably hot.

I feel like the Nostalgia Chick puts it better in her video about hot animated men: http://thatguywiththeglasses.com/videolinks/team-nchick/nostalgia-chick/34233-top-ten-qhottestq-animated-guys

So yeah, Legolas actually seems like an anomaly to me.

I just don't get it... by World-Jumper on 2013-06-01 01:02:00 UTC Reply

Why are fangirls so into the "Twoo Wuv shal change him!
I watched the Nostalgia Chick video and was stunned. As she said, when you ask guys who they lust over, it is fairly easy to tell why they do. Here is a hint: enlarged chest and hips. Ask gals though, and a sad, sad number fall in the "I
Why, fangirls?

Why?

After watching the Nostalgia Critic's video...this: by DawnFire on 2013-06-02 11:03:00 UTC Reply

Because people like to feel needed.

Twoo Wuv shall change him, yes--and that will prove that he needs me, and loves me, and will never leave me. Deep, dark, and brooding? I'm the only one who can bring him out of it, who can help him be more and feel better, which, again, means that he needs me, and loves me, and will never leave me because of all that. Yes, Batman's been through a lot of girls--but if you can manage to be The One...then that's it, you're set for life. You'll always be needed; more than that, you'll always be wanted. And for people who don't mind bending canon a little (or a lot), that's worth putting up with some brooding, or even changing the character so that he can come out of it a bit. Or a lot. I don't know how many people who write this stuff would be willing to put up with it in real life, though.

Part of the reason people write Mary-Sues is because they want to be admired and wanted and needed. It just...doesn't always translate well, for many reasons: messing with canon and thereby throwing people out of the story, not having a main character that other people can relate to (add to that 'overdoing it and making the character ridiculously powerful and unreasonable and flawless'), showcasing the worst parts of modern society (women and men in the media, racism, sexism, etc)...I could go on. But a lot of Suethors are teenagers; they're going through a point in their lives where their bodies are changing, their minds are expanding, and they're often becoming very concerned with what their peers and society think of them. And most people want to be accepted, or admired, or loved, or wanted, or needed, or all of that, and sometimes the only way to be sure of getting that is to write yourself into your stories. I don't know to what extent I've done that myself; my full-blown Sue knew everyone, defeated villains, and gave moderate-to-evil bad guys snarky talking-tos. I'm no psychologist, but I think part of that was wanting to make the canon characters' lives turn out better, part was wanting to tell a dramatic story, and part was that whole pesky wanting-to-be-admired bit sneaking in subconsciously. (She didn't date anyone, if you're curious).

The reason the PPC works is that we're here to point out flaws in writing. We're here to point out how to write better, we're here to analyse bad writing and explain how it could be good. We're not here to stomp on people's daydreams, just...bring them down to earth a little, and teach how to couch them in such a way that they're relateable, enjoyable to read, and (preferably) teach/perpetuate worthwhile values. We're here, in a way, to coach the next generation of writers...if they're prepared to listen to our critiques. And it works because we're writers ourselves, and we've been through bad writing and Mary Sues and a lot of what goes into writing them--and because we understand why we could be better and how we could improve, and we did it. Some of us (a lot of us?) have even gone into Real World jobs that require writing skills or critiquing skills, and I'd like to think we're doing well.

But now it's time for me to stop writing down my deeper thoughts and go to lunch :)

~DawnFire

Someone put this into the FAQ for other people. (nm) by Lily Winterwood on 2013-06-03 01:50:00 UTC Reply

It might need to be rephrased a bit. by Outhra on 2013-06-03 02:06:00 UTC Reply

To generalize the more specific references and make it fit into the section we put it in, you know. Except for the reference about Batman. We can keep that in. Everyone knows about Batman.

It is quite a good speech, though.
(applauds DawnFire's speech)

I feel like it'd be good for a... by Lily Winterwood on 2013-06-03 02:18:00 UTC Reply

...general statement. Maybe for like an age bit. I feel like it'd resound more for the younger writer whose first fic was sparked than anyone else.

You guys are so sweet. by DawnFire on 2013-06-03 12:41:00 UTC Reply

I can revise it a bit, if need be. Depending on how it's used (you really want to use it? *glee*), of course.

~DF

See Also: by Neshomeh on 2013-06-01 14:56:00 UTC Reply

The Nostalgia Critic's video entitled "Why Is Loki So Hot?" It talks about the same thing from a slightly different perspective, and perhaps provides the answers you seek.

~Neshomeh

That was awesome. by DawnFire on 2013-06-02 10:42:00 UTC Reply

That is, I love the Nostalgia Critic, but that was especially awesome. Especially as he might as well have been talking about why Sues go after Loki, and I just found a potential Loki Sue last night :(

But in terms of Legolas...Well, we don't actually get that much character development from him, y'know? I mean, yeah, pretty actor, good lines, and all that, but...much as I love the character, characters like Loki get more character development. So what gives?

Maybe it's the Elf thing...

~DF

We mustn't overlook Evil!Thranduil in this. by Neshomeh on 2013-06-02 15:02:00 UTC Reply

See, Legolas isn't normally a woobie, but how many fics turn him into one by making his dad abusive?

As for the ones that don't... he's pretty, he's aloof, he's immortal, and he's an oh-so-special Elf. I guess that's enough for some. *shrug*

~Neshomeh, who personally just wanted to hang out with Aragorn and learn wilderness survival.

I might have thrown up in my mouth a little... by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-31 07:09:00 UTC Reply

...at "alabaster skin" and "velvet voice".

It's also making me get the urge to write a fic where Legolas is already married to the Middle-earth equivalent of Miranda Kerr, who kicks fangirl butt for the lulz.

Theory seems unlikely... by DemonFiren on 2013-05-29 21:25:00 UTC Reply

...mainly because I currently lack information to make a statement to the contrary.

Chocolate is appreciated. Selective memory deletion...may be.
There lies strength in bottling up flamethrower capacity, though.

Argh. by DawnFire on 2013-05-28 16:44:00 UTC Reply

I may do something with the second one; I can't make it through more than a few chapters of the first one, but the second...come on, you don't put angels in M-e. The closest thing to angels there are Maiar, who most certainly do not have 'angel wings', and what the-- 'i got to go i am about to be ambushed by Orcs'? The heck? That's just sloppy. I mean, if she knows she's about to be ambushed, why's she writing about her backstory instead of preparing? And if she just plain has to go, she shouldn't know about the ambush--oh, I give up. Also, you have no idea how much I want a Supernatural-verse angel agent to send on this mission...especially as the whole 'angel-wings tattoo' is practically a trope in SPN fanfic, and it can be done really well.

This whole angel thing really bothers me, can you tell?

...I can't tell if she's calling Elrond 'father' in Hebrew, or thinks that he's the band ABBA. Either way, it's wrong, especially as she then calls him 'Ada' in the next sentence.

ARGH, SCRIPTFIC!

And what's up with this whole 'prayed to the gods and to our ancestors' and 'thank Gandolf and our ancestors'? I know several World One cultures (and several other continua, too) that use the ancestors thing, but Middle-earth Elves don't use it and never would. They have the Valar...who I don't think they actually spend much time praying to. In fact, I'm not sure there even *is* a prayer system in M-e. This Sue is so off it's...actually, it is kind of funny.

I think I'll take it.

~DF

I'd love to have an SPN angel agent. by Pretzel on 2013-05-29 00:52:00 UTC Reply

That'd be very, very awesome. Though, given recent events in the SPN 'verse, I think they'd have to be from a pre-Season 8 finale era, and somehow protected from those events should they return to a badfic set post Season 8.

...I really do need to see the latest few episodes, don't I. by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 09:30:00 UTC Reply

I just...they're going to break my heart, I just know it. On the other hand, I'm getting spoilers all over the place now, and I didn't actually want spoilers (you'd think otherwise, since I went on Tumblr, but...)

At least I have a vague idea of what you're talking about.

The funny thing is, I actually have a potential candidate. I don't know if you remember the Suemione mission ('Girl Out of Time') that Lily Winterwood did not so long ago, but there's this outtake I'm writing (okay, supposed to be writing; it hasn't actually made it past the original notes and pieces of dialogue yet) that deals with the idiotic de-Horcruxing ritual that gets used in a later chapter. (It mentions Archangels. And gets Uriel's name wrong. And names Harry Potter as Raphael's vessel, which is ridiculous and will result in a lot of teasing from Gabriel, because hello, Trickster!) But my point is that, due to the insertion of Ariel rather than Uriel, I...well, I'm bringing in the Little Mermaid, actually, but I was also thinking that Ariel the angel could show up too. Except most likely at a later point.

Although, lost SPN angel wandering the halls of HQ--er, another one who isn't Castiel, that is--well, it's pretty plausible, what with the shields being down. Also he/she'd probably just get portalled back to canon if it was during the Blackout, right? Hm...

But anyway, the point is: Ariel, the sometimes lion-headed personification of Jerusalem, could easily have an SPN version that appeared in HQ. I would almost rather find one in a badfic, though; while I love Jerusalem, it's...well, it's a bit awkward (for me, anyway) to take an angel and make an SPN version of them who then becomes an agent. That is, I think I'd like to recruit one from a badfic (although actually, this technically would be that.) On the other hand, if you know of a badfic with a, and I can't believe I'm saying this, bit character angel, well...send it over.

(In other words, I'm not completely sure about recruiting Ariel, or if it would even work out so well. Although, I'm really picturing this very serious-looking guy going around introducing himself and having people say, 'what, like the little mermaid?' and him just giving them this look, because he's been pronouncing it as a Hebrew name but they've just seen it on paper, or something, and they think they're going to be working with a mermaid. Could be hilarious. I guess we'll see how it works out...but if it does, or if I find a bit character to recruit, then I will send an angel agent after this fic. And will take s8 events into account, once I have a better understanding of what they are.)

~DF

The season finale's not heartbreaking as such... by Pretzel on 2013-05-29 09:49:00 UTC Reply

...just interesting, I suppose you could say.

And I think that idea is pretty awesome, and would make for some interesting missions, particularly once you figure out who Ariel's partner would be and what they would be like working together.

Well, I also haven't seen the two episodes before the finale by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 10:05:00 UTC Reply

Does that increase the chance of heartbreak?

It probably would, really--OH. Wow.

So, I'm currently vaguely planning on giving this mission to Kozar and Dawn while they were still partners (way back when two months ago). However...what if Ariel didn't wander in during the Blackout, but earlier? And is currently (at the time of the mission, anyway) their trainee?

...is Ariel fallen, or do I have to figure out who his vessel is? I think I'm going with a male vessel, since the wikipedia article described him as 'he' a lot (and to further differentiate from the little mermaid), but...nah, he should probably not be fallen, right? Although...wouldn't he have to end up in ESAS so as not to be overpowered--

...
...
...
...Jacques Bonnefoy currently lacks a partner.
...
...
...
...this is a really bad idea, isn't it?
...
...
...
...I should probably go think about this for a while.

Although, if you have any thoughts on this...Ariel ending up in ESAS, Ariel ending up in HQ before the Blackout, Ariel ending up with a partner who started life as a character replacement of Captain Jack Harkness...well, please, feel free to share them, because I think my brain's trying to give me the funny look to end all funny looks.

Of course, he could end up in HQ somewhere around the Blackout, and then end up temporarily partnered with Dawn for this mission (without Kozar, since he's already transferred), but...hm.

Well. What do you think?

~~(The angels are in the Pyro Department!)~~

~DF

I'd go with " she's calling him the band ABBA". by Outhra on 2013-05-28 18:06:00 UTC Reply

That way, the misnaming could result in Elrond suddenly starting to sing "Waterloo" while the Sue yammers on.

What are characteristics of Supernatural-verse angels? The way you're saying it, it implies that they can hide as humans, but will retain angel characteristics in any form, or have some sort of Tell that will let people know they're angels. Or maybe I misread something. I could look it up, but there's usually a much higher-quality explanation when I ask a fan about a species or organization than when I just go on Wikipedia.

Well, some breeds of Maia had wings, if I remember correctly, but yeah, calling them "angels" is just idiotic.
And I imagine Gandolf will be a pretty pompous mini-Balrog now that he's got people praying to him. No, wait, it's a Sue, so by Legal's standards she's not a person(that's how Legal justified the whole "exterminate the species with extreme prejudice" bit), but somebody praying to him at least.

ABBA-singing Elrond. Scary. by AelinTheAmazing on 2013-05-30 03:26:00 UTC Reply

Yep. Chibi!Elrond is now performing "Waterloo" live somewhere in the fandom village I have in my head. I don't know why he's chibi-fied, I just think chibi Elrond would be kind of cute.
I only actually know ABBA songs from Mamma Mia... by DawnFire on 2013-05-28 18:27:00 UTC Reply

...so he'd probably end up singing "Mamma Mia" or "Dancing Queen". Although "Waterloo" actually sounds familiar; I should look it up.

Well...there's a distinction between what they can do on the show and what they commonly do in fanfic. On the show, they can Fall in several ways. One is just losing their Grace piece by piece until they're completely human, but have all their memories. The other is to rip out their Grace and fall to Earth along with it. The angel gets reborn as a human, while the Grace lands somewhere nearby and grows into a tree. The angel may later regain their memories with some help, and then go find the tree and touch it, which gives them back their Grace (and leaves the tree where it is, if you're wondering.)

However, in fanfic, there's a common plot where someone, generally Castiel, has fallen, or is disguised, or is in a human AU, and has angel wings (generally black) tattooed on his (or her, sometimes) back. Occasionally, someone else has them. This is generally just symbolic; I don't think I've ever seen the tattoos become the wings (except maybe once where he got his Grace back and the tattoos disappeared? I'm not sure). But of course, this is just a fanfic trope. It happens to be used in a large enough number of goodfics that I like it and will protect it, even though it's not canon (although it's not too much of a stretch, I don't think). In canon, though, fallen angels don't have any tells, except for being able to hear the other angels talking if they're active on Earth at the time, and, if that's the case, remembering bits of information without knowing how they know. I'm not sure how much of a tell that is, though, unless you were to comb through mental hospitals.

And yeah, fans tend to be good sources :) Either that, or they'll know which wiki articles to direct you to.

Well, yes, some did--such as the Balrogs--but there's no such word as 'angel' in any language of Middle-earth. It just doesn't exist. The Maiar may be an angel equivalent of sorts, but they themselves are not angels, and should not be referred to as such.

Pff, Gandolf. Wow. And actually, Elrond has that line, and it's Elrond and Celebrian who pray to 'the gods and [their] ancestors', so...Gandolf's got Elves praying to him! Wowwww.

She keeps on calling him Abba and Ada. And there were some more things that I've now forgotten, thankfully for my brain and sanity...

I wonder who I should send after this.

~DF

Interesting. by Outhra on 2013-05-28 22:28:00 UTC Reply

So, does an angel in Supernatural becoming human when they fall relate to how the demons in Supernatural are once-human?
Furthermore, can a former angel, once he becomes human from the first method you mentioned, become a demon with all of the angel's memories?

Also, would an angel spawned through the second method, which apparently gives them some sort of angel-sensing power, be able to pass that power on to their offspring, or is it a characteristic of their soul or aura or some such and not actually their human body? Can they sense the other angels when they're babies or otherwise unable to know what an angel is, or is it conditional upon ability to recognize an angel?
Can they even detect the other angels if the reincarnated once-angel is part of a religion that doesn't believe in angels?

Does the tree carry the Grace, as in, it's inside the tree and is removed when the angel touches it, or is the tree itself a manifestation of the Grace?
What kind of tree is it? Old, young, tall, short, ash, birch, sequoia? Does it matter?
If two Grace trees pollinate each other, could an angel restore its status by touching the offspring of the two trees, or can an angel only be restored by a tree that was created at the same time that that angel turned human?
What if something happens to "their" tree, like it's cut down and used for firewood or made into paper? Would they need to rub the ashes/paper product on themselves to become angels again, or is the Grace connected to the tree lost permanently?

What causes angels to lose their Grace? Is it passive, caused gradually by doing things like spending too much time on Earth, or can Grace only be removed deliberately by another angel due to crimes or offense against the angelic hosts? I'm assuming that a group of Supernatural angels is called a host, since I've seen groups of angels called hosts before, but I'm not certain in this case.

I know. I did say it was stupid to call Maia angels, so we're in agreement there.

Wow, Gandolf's got some Elves praying to him, he was in that syndicated comic strip doctorlit showed the Board a while back, and I don't even know what else. He is so important right now. I imagine the other Gandalf-based minis are so jealous.

Didn't you say Kozar was DMS? Send him! If he has experience with Scandinavian pop music, that's a bonus! If not, then his partner should probably have found about it beforehand, or they won't be able to understand why Elrond starts singing about dancing queens or being defeated by love. Of course, it would be hard to understand why an Elf would start singing World One music in the first place, but as long as there's enough understanding to let Kozar go "What, what... what?", it's a success.

Wow. by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 10:06:00 UTC Reply

Long reply! I love those. Let's see if I can manage to answer all your questions...

Er...not entirely. Actually, not at all, I shouldn't think, beyond the concept of humanity being the middle-ground. Demons in Supernatural were humans who sold their souls. Those souls were then taken to Hell and tortured until they became demons. A fallen angel loses their Grace, and, presumably, gains a soul (not sure if that works for an angel who doesn't rip out their Grace--actually, I don't think it does--but I'm assuming that one that gets reborn as a human would, in fact, have a soul. It isn't mentioned, though), thereby becoming human. If there's any relation beyond humanity sort of being the step in between, I don't see it.

A former angel...wow. That's very interesting, and (I'm going to say this several times, probably) it's a question I've never considered. I would say yes, if the angel were to sell their newly gained soul (presumably) to a demon; however, I'm not sure an angel would be stupid enough, seeing as they know pretty well what goes on in Hell, and that demons are real, and that they'd become demons themselves if they were to make a deal. So technically, yes, a fallen angel could sell their soul (assuming they get one) and become a demon. The angel's memories would probably end up rather faded, though. However, again, I'm not sure one would be stupid enough. Then again, humans do tend to do crazy things when they're desperate, so...who knows?

...and, apparently, Pretzel's already answered all of this :) That'll teach me to look for replies before replying myself...

Maiar do not equal angels. I will say that as often as I can for cathartic reasons, because seriously? Tolkien deliberately kept Christianity more or less out of Middle-earth. Therefore, putting angels in...it's just ridiculous. You could make a case for adding them into C S Lewis' work (although you'd have to make them into an allegory of sorts) but not Tolkien's. It just doesn't work.

Gandolf is probably lording it over them, and they're plotting to overthrow him. *shakes head* Minis, what can you do.

Kozar, unfortunately, ended up in the DIC. However, he was previously in the DMS...this could be a retroactive mission of sorts, from when he was still paired with Agent Dawn? That way we can have Dawn starting to dance and sing along, while Kozar goes 'Klingon music makes much more sense than this rubbish' and charges for it. That could work...although, it would be nice if this fic was posted before March 2 of this year, because that's when Kozar was transferred.

*checks* Yesss, it was published in January! Awesome. So maybe Kozar and Dawn (and maybe trainee!Ariel as well) will take it on...

~DF

On the subject of C.S. Lewis and angels... by Pretzel on 2013-05-30 00:33:00 UTC Reply

What about the star people, Coriakin and Ramandu (and technically Ramandu's daughter)? Couldn't they be seen as a Narnian allegory to angels, in a way?

Or the eldila from C.S. Lewis's Space Trilogy. by Outhra on 2013-05-30 20:00:00 UTC Reply

Immortal, appear as giant pillars of holy light, one of their seven leaders is a blatant reference to Lucifer, with Earth serving as a prison for him and all of the fallen/bent eldila, which will only be purified after an apocalyptic war in the heavens between the bent ones and the remaining uncorrupted eldila... There were a few more I don't remmeber right now, but I'm not sure how many more links to traditional angels the eldila could have without just giving up and calling them angels.

Except when an army of angels fought an army of demons, they didn't blow up the moon and fight with a horde of aliens, so it's not 100%.

On the subject of SPN angels... (SPOILERS for SERIES)) by Pretzel on 2013-05-29 00:51:00 UTC Reply

Answers to your questions, as far as I know, in order:

1.0) I don't think it really relates that way; angels in Supernatural were never human to begin with, so it's more like they're reverting to the form that they take-- their human vessels --when they manifest on Earth. Demons were once humans who had their souls marred and broken in some way, either through some sort of demonic crossroads deal or other acts of extreme violence.

1.5) We don't know; I don't think that's ever happened before.

2.0) Again, we don't know. The only angel we saw that ripped out her Grace and was reborn as a human was Anna (Anael), and she, as far as we know, never had kids. Then again, being stuck in an asylum probably didn't help that matter.

2.1) Unknown on the babies thing; Anna only started hearing 'angel radio' (Aka, the grand celestial chatter of bored angels everywhere) when another angel, Castiel, rescued Dean Winchester from Hell and proclaimed that he was saved, opening her psychic ears to what was going on.

2.2) Supernatural and religion. Right. That's... ridiculously complicated, actually. I mean, yeah, they play off the Judeo-Christian mythologies quite a bit inside the show, but it's more like cherry picked bits and pieces here and there rather than following a straight up recognizable dogma. There's also the fact that they throw in bits and pieces of other religions and mythologies-- reference 'Hammer of the Gods', episode 5.19, if you want more of an idea --all the time, so that's not much help.

3.0) It's a little of both. The tree is a physical marker of the Grace, but it doesn't disappear once the Grace is retrieved by someone.

3.1) Anna's Grace was a very large tree, but we've never seen anyone else's, so it's just a lone sample in canon. In fic, though, I've read a story where an archangel's Grace (that story's canon followed the seven archangel theory rather than the show's canon four) was actually the cause of the Great Barrier Reef. Grace = life force, so it makes sense that someone more powerful than a 'normal' angel would have a greater impact on nature.

3.2) Unknown.

3.3) Again, unknown, though I suspect the Grace itself would probably act as some sort of protective countermeasure; maybe its very presence would somehow influence people to leave said tree/organism alone?

4.0) Let's see... In canon, angels have lost their Grace due to the following:

a) Dying [which can be done only via another angel's sword or explosive means]

b) Angels abandoning Heaven due to the Judeo-Christian Apocalypse in an alternate timeline, leaving 2014!Castiel to slowly lose his powers

c) Forceful removal

d) A ritual closing off Heaven from angels (see the Season 8 season finale for more details)

4.1) Actually, we don't know much about the angelic hierarchy in the SPN 'verse, save for bits and pieces here and there. Obviously, the four archangels are the powerhouses of the whole thing (though that doesn't mean that they do a good job at it [those who are active in Heaven for any length of time, anyways]). We also know that most of the angels are arranged into garrisons, or groups of warriors. I say most, since I don't know about the cupids, or if the reapers can be classified as angels or just celestial beings. The garrisons are headed up by captains; Castiel was the captain of the garrison that broke into Hell and got Dean back.

Hope that helps!

Oh, this does help. A few more questions, though. by Outhra on 2013-05-29 01:09:00 UTC Reply

You mentioned human vessels for an angel to take. Is this like the Gnostic "divine being channeled into a human body" thing, or do angels manifest their bodies on Earth in a humanoid form most of the time?

You'd said that the Grace-tree would be around until and after the Grace is removed by "someone". Does this mean that any angel can use another angel's Grace-tree? If the latter, would it be possible for a human to become a pseudo-angel by absorbing a Grace, or is that not how a Grace works?

You'd said that events in alternate timelines led to Castiel losing his powers. Does this mean that every universe that the angels exist in connects with each other, and whenever a Heaven somewhere is destroyed or abandoned, it reflects badly on all angels everywhere, or was that a doomed timeline or a "something bad happened in the past/future and only the protagonists can fix it" scenario, and it was just the same Heaven as before, but affected by What Went Wrong? Or neither?

One more question I forgot to ask. by Outhra on 2013-05-29 01:20:00 UTC Reply

Does a human soul that gets turned into a Supernatural-verse demon retain the memories and habits of its former life? If so, does it retain it all (within reason, since they'd been demonized and that would probably cause a shift in personality and related points in the once-human's psyche), or only certain parts? What remnants of the former life are most likely to be retained?

On Demons by Pretzel on 2013-05-29 03:46:00 UTC Reply

I'm going to say a tentative yes to all your questions, bar the last one. I don't know if there are remnants of its former life that are most likely to be retained; some demons like to kill just for the heck of it, some don't. It varies from character to character.

A few more answers by Pretzel on 2013-05-29 01:19:00 UTC Reply

1.) Okay, so. In the SPN 'Verse, each angel can take a vessel. This is usually the body of a willing human who, due to various bloodlines, is able to host said angel. The main protagonists of the show, Dean and Sam Winchester, are the True Vessels of Michael and Lucifer, respectively. Castiel's vessel's name is Jimmy Novak; on one episode, Castiel temporarily used Jimmy's young daughter, Claire, as a vessel. Now, the key thing about angels is that they have to receive permission to use someone as a vessel. Demons, on the other hand, can possess anyone they like regardless of permission.

2.) As far as I know, no, another angel cannot use someone else's Grace construct. Each Grace is unique to an angel. That doesn't mean that the Grace can't be harnessed by someone else to use in, say, a spell, but it /does/ mean that someone can't just become an angel willy-nilly. Think of it as being biometrically locked to one specific angel.

3.) That timeline is... complicated. Referred to as the 'End-Verse', it's a possible Alternate Universe (according to Word of God from the producers) that showed what might happen should Sam say yes to being Lucifer's vessel. The can explain it better than I can, to be honest.

Even more questions. by Outhra on 2013-05-29 01:56:00 UTC Reply

Was there a breeding program of some sort put into place by the angels to birth humans suitable to be their vessels, or is the ability to host angels just an hereditary quirk that shows up every once in a while, and an angel just takes advantage of it?

When an angel-turned-human reclaims its Grace, what happens to the human body? Does it remain on Earth as the angel's vessel, or is it destroyed as the angel assumes its power again? And if it is destroyed, does the restored angel need to find a new vessel to manifest again, or is it able to reform its old body?

Okay, so it was the End Alternate Universe's angels that lost his powers due to events in that universe, then? The angels of the most commonly seen timeline weren't affected?
Was this just a What if? episode, or were the protagonists sent out of their native universe somehow?

Yet more answers. by Pretzel on 2013-05-29 03:44:00 UTC Reply

1.) There are certain bloodlines that are... Well, I suppose you could say artificially encouraged to converge in order to create a vessel. That's what happened with Sam and Dean: their parents each came from a bloodline that carried the potentiality to produce the archangels' true vessels, and, in a rare moment of actually working with one another rather than against, Heaven and Hell both did a bit of machination to ensure that John and Mary met, married, and had suitable kids. Otherwise, I think it's just best fit, to be honest.

2) Good question. For Anna, her human body was destroyed when she regained her Grace, but later a copy was made to act as her vessel.

3.)Correct. In the canon timeline, the angels weren't affected by what happened in the 'End verse. It was an alternate reality: what might happen should certain events occur.

In terms of that alternate reality... by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 09:44:00 UTC Reply

...if you haven't seen Tumblr, you should: there's a conspiracy theory of sorts floating around that the show's still heading towards the Endverse (because of Lucifer's line of 'whatever choices you make, whatever paths you take, we will always end up here', or something like that.) So basically, Sam gets a haircut? Oh no! We're heading towards the Endverse. Er...I can't remember the rest, actually. But it's quite the theory.

Also, a clarification in terms of angels who get reborn as humans: I believe in that case a vessel is sort of created for them, in a way; they don't actually seek out a fetus/about-to-be-born child and get permission. I'm not sure it can even really be called a vessel, beyond it being a sort of human form of the angel without their Grace (and, generally, without their memories, too).

Also, a question for you, Pretzel: do you think fallen angels get souls? I mean, they've become human, so...it might make sense. However, if they do, what happens to the soul when they regain their Grace?

~DF

Mm, I think it's more a conservation of energy by Pretzel on 2013-05-29 09:55:00 UTC Reply

After all, souls are energy-- or at least, given that Cas once tapped into Bobby's soul to help rejuvenate himself a little, as far as I can tell --so I think that the Grace would eventually dwindle down into an approximation of a soul, assuming you're talking about angels who're cut off from Heaven rather than ripping out their Grace. For example, we know Cas slowly but steadily lost a good chunk of his powers over the course of the time he was cut off from Heaven, both in the 'correct' timeline and in the Endverse. However, even in the Endverse, he seemed to retain a few of his heavenly gifts-- being able to know instantly that past!Dean wasn't 2014!Dean, and so on --so I don't think it's an equivalent exchange.

As for regaining Grace as a fallen angel who's ripped it out, we do know that Anna's human body was basically destroyed because of Grace-overload. I think it's rather like overloading a circuit: put too much power in and it blows. Perhaps that much Grace obliterated the soul, and then rushed in to fill the void. Alternatively, since Anna was able to hear 'angel radio', maybe a small amount of Grace remained within her, acting as a sort of pseudo-soul until she got her powers back.

Hm, interesting. by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 09:56:00 UTC Reply

I think I'd buy the idea of a piece of Grace remaining to approximate a soul; it sounds pretty likely.

~DF

Also, the first Sue... by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 08:21:00 UTC Reply

...what in the name of sanity is she doing to the Elvish language?! Is she actually mixing Sindarin and Quenya?

I mean come on, she knows of Tom Bombadil - WHY IS SHE STILL WRITING THIS?

Heh heh. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:31:00 UTC Reply

I do believe I asked if her swords were actually what she called them.

I guess I can chalk that up to "nope."

No, they mean what they mean. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 08:35:00 UTC Reply

Thing is, Isilmë is a, er, princess of Númenor. So the Sue just totally named her sword after a princess. I'd probably be vaguely offended if someone named their gun 'Lily Winterwood'... you know?

(Still, better than naming your horse after a Vala. Which I have seen twice.)

But what if I shot Sues with it? by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:50:00 UTC Reply

Theoretical:

"Hey, SC! You appear to have a new minigun! What's it called?"

"Why, my dear Mary Sue, it's called The Winterwood!"

"...Why?"

BREEEE-BRRRRRATATATATATATATATATATATATAT

*Mary Sue is reduced to goop*

"That's why."

...As long as you're killing Sues, and not a Sue... by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 08:52:00 UTC Reply

I'll be fine.

'S why it's a minigun. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:54:00 UTC Reply

Industrial strength Sue-perior Army destruction.

That, and you can load it with charges for rapid-pace charge/executions.

It also sounds like a rifle name, too. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 08:56:00 UTC Reply

The preferred weapons of the Winterwood Rangers.

(...that was this long-ago joke about me having an army of rangers on Tumblr...)

the Winterwood by Ugolino on 2013-05-28 22:46:00 UTC Reply

Mind if I give the minigun a nod and a wink in my (theoretical) PPC story? Nothing major, just a comment about a partially disassembled Winterwood lying on a table in the PPC Armory...

Awwwwwww yessssss. (nm) by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 22:47:00 UTC Reply

Lily, what if we gave one to Jacques? by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 09:52:00 UTC Reply

I bet ESAS could use a minigun of that power...or maybe they'd get the Winterwood 2.0s...

XD

~DF

Or instead of the Cyber gun in the Necromancer mission, by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-29 09:59:00 UTC Reply

It would be a Winterwood 2.0?

Ooh, maybe. by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 10:13:00 UTC Reply

That could be cool.

I'd add 'what if he took one along', but he technically isn't allowed to use it in 'Rings canon anyway, so there's no point.

Yeah, let's have him either using a Winterwood 2.0 or have him using the anti-Cyber gun while a Winterwood 2.0 or two lie on a table nearby for him to use next...

~DF

Could you edit that into the doc then? by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-29 10:15:00 UTC Reply

Also, Outhra's looking for you. You've got lots of writing to do for the Sue Lord mission.

Sure, which version do you want in there? by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 15:35:00 UTC Reply

Sorry about that--I've been a bit busy with uni stuff this week. I have to choose courses and stuff. I did go and edit and fill in some scenes, though; I hope that's at least a good start.

Outhra, if you're reading this, remember that you can email me :) I don't bite, except on my particularly annoyed were-raptor days, and some bleepolate generally takes care of that.

~DF

Maybe the Winterwood was on a table next to the Cyber gun. (nm) by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-29 16:04:00 UTC Reply

Suggsting to use "weinterwood Rangers" for... by Sergio Turbo on 2013-05-28 16:35:00 UTC Reply

The impromptu team who fought Slorp. With the Doctor as their honorary leader.

*Winterwood Rangers by Sergio Turbo on 2013-05-28 16:35:00 UTC Reply

Damn, now I have to chase a mini-Lily!

Would that be their name in-universe? by Outhra on 2013-05-28 16:58:00 UTC Reply

Because, if it was, they'd be named that by someone, for some reason. Is there a presence known as Winterwood in the PPC universe somewhere, rather than just one of the authors of said universe? I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

Of course, if it's their name out-of-universe, just on the Board, then there wouldn't be anything holding back people that decided to call them the Winterwood Rangers.

Oh, and my mini-Agents have apprehended the weinterwood-mini for you. Do you want it back? If not, I'm concerned that Cadamr and Accadia might gut it or something.

Well, by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 17:10:00 UTC Reply

I was actually a character in that OFUIAHF piece but I was the antagonist so...

I think it'd be cool for it to be an out of universe reference. Mostly because I want the Doctor heading my army.

Oh, yeah, I remember that. by Sergio Turbo on 2013-05-28 19:51:00 UTC Reply

In fact, Agent!Sergio and Corolla were there during the first IAHF Mary Sue Invasion. However, I thought the culprit was called Lilith Wydenbrooke...

And, if your army has the Doctor as a leader.. where do I sign?

(Speaking of him, I think he would be able to come up with such a name just because he thinks it is cool. He's the Doctor, he can get away with it.)

So... The Winterwood Rangers are:

The Doctor (leader)
Claire Oswald
Eledhwen Elerossiel
Christianne Shieh
Eleanor (TCDA-verse Eledhwen)
Christelle (TCDA-verse Christianne)
Morgan
Sergio Turbo
Nikki Cherryflower

And possibly other people like the cafeteria workers who managed to rig the containment field and those at DoSAT who managed to restore power to HQ. And obviously posthumous honorary membership to those who died while trying to contain it.

No, there's an OFU for IAHF where I was the antagonist. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 21:31:00 UTC Reply

Well, to sign up you just gotta sign here... /hands papers.

I see. by Sergio Turbo on 2013-05-29 12:47:00 UTC Reply

*signs papers and hands them back to Lily*

That should totally be a thing. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:59:00 UTC Reply

Like, seriously, Winterwood Rangers should totally be kept around for future missions.

Kind of like how my White Mages in Mages' Travels are church militant badasses.

It started out as just a joke I made for an MST.

Like Aragorn, only more snowed-in! by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 09:02:00 UTC Reply

I imagine they like gatecrashing Suvian Christmas Fluff-fics very often.

More snowed-in, and GUNS. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 09:17:00 UTC Reply

Or New Guardian ROTG fics.

I finally found one of those... Mommy, why do the words hurt me, you said they were my friends...

Let's sic those Rangers on this Sue. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 17:23:00 UTC Reply

http://www.quotev.com/story/1917124/My-childhood-bestfriendharry-potter-love-story/

Her name is Liliana Ice Vixen Winterwood and she talks like a hyperactive five year old, is a Veela, and has enough bad grammar and spacing to make anyone faint.

Oh my... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 18:35:00 UTC Reply

"Her name is Liliana Ice Vixen Winterwood"

NOPE

THAT'S IT

SOUND THE SONIC SCREWDRIVERS

SIC HER, FELLOWS

(Yes, I did just turn the sonic screwdriver into a war bugle, issat a problem?)

Oh, and to be helpful: by Ekyl on 2013-05-28 06:47:00 UTC Reply

A while ago I found a "Bilbo's sister" Sue on Quotev, bad enough a mini is spawned in the very first sentence. I was thinking on going after it for the mission after my current WIP, but if anyone wants it or would like a look, it's here: http://www.quotev.com/story/3035088/A-Hobbit-and-A-Dwarf/

Ah, Biblo, the bookish mini-Balrog. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 06:57:00 UTC Reply

I see him quite often on the Pit these days.

How does he not incinerate the books? (nm) by Ekyl on 2013-05-28 06:58:00 UTC Reply

Fireproofing. A lot of it. (nm) by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 07:01:00 UTC Reply

Bilbo coats everything in asbestos. XD (nm) by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 07:48:00 UTC Reply

A new business venture, inflammable book covers. (nm) by darklordaakmal on 2013-05-28 13:37:00 UTC Reply

I'd invest in it. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 14:16:00 UTC Reply

I'd invest ONE MILLION DOLLARS!

[/Austin Powers]

But if the pages remain flammable... by Outhra on 2013-05-28 14:32:00 UTC Reply

It would almost be, what's the phrase, insult to injury if someone's books caught fire.

Bookshop Owner: No! A horrible fire resulting from my assistant's careless use of the coffee maker has burned up every book in the store! I'm ruined!
Assistant: Look on the bright side, sir. At least the covers are all right.
Bookshop Owner: (sobs)

Oh yeah, forgot about that. by darklordaakmal on 2013-05-28 17:25:00 UTC Reply

We also need fireproof gloves and papers.
...Yeah, that would suck. (nm) by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 16:25:00 UTC Reply

Interesting! Thanks for the finds. by Ekyl on 2013-05-28 06:44:00 UTC Reply

I might have a look at the first one next I'm in need of mission material.
GOOD HEAVENS. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 05:58:00 UTC Reply

So I go home from watching the Great Gatsby (I don't know about you, but I liked it well; the modern music was a subtle prod at turning the entire film into a modern cautionary tale imo), and being Morbidly Curious, I looked up Gatsby on the Circle and I found at least two Sues.

Heart of gold
In which the Sue is a blatant slut shamer who shamelessly bashes and upstages Daisy. I mean, Daisy isn't exactly the greatest character ever but THIS SUE MAKES GATSBY FORGET DAISY INSTANTANEOUSLY. I DON'T - WHAT IS THIS I DON'T EVEN -
(Can we run her over with Gatsby's car? Please?)

Million Dollar Man A Jay Gatsby Love Story
Okay, really, this one isn't as awful as the other but based on the title and the summary we've got Gatsby forgetting Daisy... again. And we've got, according to the end notes, the Sue messing around with Nick as well as Gatsby. And then we've got more Daisy bashing.

Also, I note that the first fic can't spell Nick Carraway right. What the hell would a mini for Gatsby look like? Mini-Eckleburg eyes?

Callaway? Good grief. by DawnFire on 2013-05-28 16:18:00 UTC Reply

Also, modern music? ...I hope it works well. The period music was my favorite part of the old movie, besides the dancing.

I don't like the first Sue. At all.

Also, for both of them:

THE FIRST RULE OF GREAT GATSBY FANFICTION IS ONE THAT SHALL NOT BE BROKEN SAVE ONLY IF IT BE FOR PARODY, AND IT IS THIS: THOU SHALT NOT CAUSE JAY GATSBY TO FORGET, IGNORE, OR OTHERWISE LEAVE DAISY BUCHANAN, ESPECIALLY NOT INSTANTANEOUSLY; AND, SHOULD YOU BE DETERMINED TO BREAK THIS RULE, FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE GIVE IT A SLOW BUILD AND LOGIC AND DEAL PROPERLY AND IN GOOD TASTE WITH THE FACT THAT GATSBY IS IN LOVE WITH THE IDEA OF DAISY AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN. AND, FOR THE LOVE OF CANON, DO NOT MESS UP HISTORICAL DETAILS AND, I'LL SAY IT AGAIN, DEAL PROPERLY WITH THE BREAKING OF GATSBY AND DAISY'S ROMANCE. OR, BETTER YET, JUST DON'T DO IT. THE ENTIRE PLOT HINGES ON HIM BEING IN LOVE WITH HER AND REFUSING TO GIVE HER UP.

Seriously. I've read the book twice, both times for school, and saw the old movie, and while I didn't particularly love the book, breaking up Gatsby and Daisy without logic and plausibility and logic is just stomping on everything that F. Scott Fitzgerald was trying to show through that book (or at least a major part of it).

...why am I being protective of characters from a book I didn't actually enjoy reading all that much?

~DF

It's Baz Luhrmann. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 17:07:00 UTC Reply

He made pop songs a part of a turn of the century drama/comedy piece set in a French brothel, and it worked.

I know some people thought it was jarring/hated it, but I personally thought it really underlined how much Gatsby's parties looked like Vegas nightclubs in the film, and it just lent more of a cautionary tale sorta feeling to the film.

Hm. by DawnFire on 2013-05-29 10:15:00 UTC Reply

I think I'll just have to see it, and reserve my judgment until then. I've been hearing good things; it's just, well, the 20s music was my favorite part of the old movie.

Then again, if they can make it work...well, whatever. Judgment: reserving it.

~DF

Mini-West Egg? by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:14:00 UTC Reply

Also, having read the Great Gatsby, Daisy really wasn't that bad a character.

If anything, Nick's folks were worse by comparison.

Mini-Yellow Cars? by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 08:17:00 UTC Reply

I liked Daisy well enough, even though my teacher hated her. I thought Carey Mulligan did her well in her portrayal - the bit when she mentioned her daughter being a fool seemed to hint that Daisy really wasn't a fool, either.

I sporked the first one here.

Mini-Tom Buchanan! by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:30:00 UTC Reply

Nah, probably wouldn't work.

Followed the blog on my tumblr. As an aside, if you find yourself winding why one of my blogs is random nonsense, it's because it's purely about the odd stuff Kitty and I say on the weekends, when making sense is not a priority.

Ack, no. Mini-Wilsons? by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 08:32:00 UTC Reply

Though honestly I think I prefer Mini-Eckleburg Eyes. They JUDGE YOU.

While we're talking about the creation of mini species... by Outhra on 2013-05-28 14:23:00 UTC Reply

Does anyone have a good idea for Adventure Time minis? I'm planning a few missions to that continuum, and I have a lot of possibilities, but I don't really know which one of them would work. If anyone else has any better ideas, don't hesitate to say.

So far I have these as potential mini species:
mini-Lich
mini-Lemongrab (or Lemonjon)
mini-BMO
mini-Magic Man (I'm leaning toward eliminating this one altogether, as it strikes too close to mini-Discords to me)
mini-Flambo (again, probably not, since how many tiny fire creatures do we need)
mini-Rainicorn
mini-Jiggler
mini-Lub Glub
mini-Crystal Man
mini-Ice-o-pede

Does anyone have preferences, or any "that one should definitely not be the mini"s, or other mini species suggestions that might work better?

You have my vote for Ice-o-pede. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 18:32:00 UTC Reply

It's a...
*sunglasses from the heavens*

...COOL CRITTER.

Why not mini yellow cars? Mini balrogs can drive it. (nm) by darklordaakmal on 2013-05-30 03:18:00 UTC Reply

Now the question is, can Balrogs drive? by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-30 03:53:00 UTC Reply

Without incinerating the car, that is?

Hey, if the Ghost Rider can pull it off... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-30 17:20:00 UTC Reply

I mean, he's really just a small, psychotic, angelic-force-turned-bad Balrog, when you get down to the bare bones of it.

He's covered in fire, a Balrog is covered in fire...
He carries a fiery whip, a Balrog carries a fiery whip...

They judge you like Dredd? by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:51:00 UTC Reply

Or just, in general?

They judge you like the Moose in Wise Blood. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 08:52:00 UTC Reply

Or something. :'D

They judge you like THE INQUISITORS OF THE CRIMSON FIST! by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:56:00 UTC Reply

Shout out to Riese, there.

If you can pull up copies of both... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 04:46:00 UTC Reply

That I can actually copy and edit in a word document, that is...

I will only gladly take both these suckers and MST them.

Like seriously.

(I put my email in the bar to make it easier on me, since all my word documents have stupid word count limits, and I therefore have to do this in chunks.)

*checks* Blast; I cannot find them anywhere else. by Tawaki on 2013-05-28 05:22:00 UTC Reply

You can get the text from the page source, though.

That's what I meant. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 07:47:00 UTC Reply

But I can't access the page source on my phone, is the thing, hence I need somebody to do it for me.

I have the Princess Arianna one formatted. by Tawaki on 2013-05-29 03:08:00 UTC Reply

Can you please give me your e-mail?

Sure. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-29 16:48:00 UTC Reply

Email is in the subject bar. My username should be red.

...Or not, apparently. by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-29 16:52:00 UTC Reply

*sigh*

Email is sfclemons@gmail.com

Secondary is heofthespecs@gmail.com

Take your pick.

Sent. (nm) by Tawaki on 2013-05-30 13:27:00 UTC Reply

On a related note... by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 04:51:00 UTC Reply

"And will shine blue when Orcs are near"

I'm sorry? I thought Sting was unique in this regard? Orcrist sure didn't shine blue, and it was intended for killing orcs and such. Legolas' knives dont ever shine blue. In fact, I don't recall any other occurence outside of Sting where an elf-crafted blade shone blue in the presence of orcs.

Guh. Quotev makes their Sues so painfully obvious, it burns my eyes.

No, I think all Elf blades shine blue. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 06:02:00 UTC Reply

Or at least all Elf blades forged in the First Age in Gondolin do.

Right, and this my point: by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 07:46:00 UTC Reply

How many of those swords could possibly still be found that she has TWO?

Yeah, the probability of a Sue having... by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 07:50:00 UTC Reply

...Gondolin-forged magic glowing swords is really damn low unless she knows about Gondolin and stuff.

Still, all three of the Elf-swords in the Hobbit are supposed to glow blue; they don't in the films because PJ's an idiot.

Or maybe he forgot that Orcrist was supposed to as well? by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 07:57:00 UTC Reply

Hey, development hell can cause that. The Hobbit WAS a pretty big film, after all.

True, but it was rather explicitly stated in the book. by Lily Winterwood on 2013-05-28 07:58:00 UTC Reply

Meh, as long as Sues don't start claiming Speshul Swords that glow blue, I'll be - oh.

Noticed a conundrum, there? :p by SpecstacularSC on 2013-05-28 08:04:00 UTC Reply

Also, what are the odds that the words she named her swords are ACTUALLY what they mean?

I'm just gonna hinge a bet and say they aren't.