Re: Is it Sindarin or is it Quenya?

Elvish vs. Grelvish vs. WTF is that? by Honu_Wahine on 2010-06-30 03:13:00 UTC Reply

Okay, so I've started reading fic again, found some good ones, and mostly a large pile of bonfire worthy stories. Some things are bugging me, language wise, as you can see.
Came across a story here, and some of the Elvish in there is giving me a headache. When Haldir (who may not be the real one) is speaking to Faramir (who seriously needs help from an agent/FicPsych, btw), and I was wondering if any of it was real. According to the author, "pen velui" means "lovely one". I can't find any proof on reliable sites, and I can't get onto Grey-company to check their lists.
Among the translation headaches (not necessarily from the same story) are:
-roch neth/roch-neth: little horse (really?)
-Mailëo liantassë: vines of lust (I'm not gonna touch that one...)
Ihaes: (I have no idea what this means, but it's not on any reliable site)
Gûren: (see above)
Maer fuin: used as a parting, but no actual translation provided (found on aragorn-legolas.5u.com; called Erfier) (Mára farië or Mára estë maybe? Hmm.)
Erfier: (supposedly) "Only Mortal" (don't trust this site/the authors, on principal; same site as above)
Actually, right now, I have to get off. So, more translation annoyances tomorrow, maybe.
Anyone else got any translation headaches(or any answers to mine? 'Cause I don't read/write/speak Elvish fluently).

-Honu_Wahine

Is it Sindarin or is it Quenya? by Aeidhryn on 2010-07-01 15:51:00 UTC Reply

Now, I know that Legolas would normally speak a certain type, but I dunno if the author of this fic even knows/cares. Although, it's nice to see the author is trying.

On second thought, vines of lust?!? Do I even want to know?!

Re: Is it Sindarin or is it Quenya? by Honu_Wahine on 2010-07-01 22:07:00 UTC Reply

No freakin idea. I'm assuming, since the dialogue with Legolas was him speaking with an Evil!Glorfindel, it was, ummm. . . Quenya?
Vines of Lust? No. You definitely do not want to know. Let's just say it's a smutfic of epic canon-raping proportions, and leave it there, hmm?
Does the author care? Judging by that site, definitely not. Read almost anything there (probably Second Chances, maybe), and you'll look for a coffin, some nails and a hammer, and a barrel of bleepka for afters (after you bury the author alive). It's horrifying, and I regret ever reading those. Damn good summaries on bad fics!

-Honu_Wahine

Waah! I'll stay away, thanks. Unless you really need help. (nm) by Aeidhryn on 2010-07-04 01:12:00 UTC Reply
Sindarin is more likely by Elcalion on 2010-07-02 02:14:00 UTC Reply

Quenya was no longer used for daily conversation between Elves by the time of the Third Age. Historically, Quenya was replaced by Sindarin as the main conversation language as far back as the First Age (when Thingol basically said "Anyone speaking Quenya will be considered a kinslayer").

The exiled Noldor kept Quenya in use as a language of lore (Tolkien's term is "Elven-latin"), but spoke Sindarin in everyday use. Legolas was born sometime in the Third Age, in a Silvan realm to a Sindarin father, and most likely would have never learnt Quenya.

As for Glorfindel, it's kinda-heavily-implied that he's a Noldo (possibly Glorfindel of Gondolin rehoused and sent back to Middle-earth), and while he probably knows Quenya, he'd speak Sindarin to Legolas.

Elcalion, language nerd

Lesse... by Elorie on 2010-06-30 23:05:00 UTC Reply

...what I can make of this. I'm not really fluent, either, but a hardcore Tolkien fanatic, and I hate the butchering of Elven languages. Now this is what I came up with:

"pen velui": "pen" is a pronoun, meaning simply "one/someone". "velui" is put together from "mel" (lenition makes it "vel" after some nouns and pronouns - debatable in this case), which means "to love" or and the suffix "-ui" which may be added to a word to create an adjective denoting attribute or ability. So basically: "Someone loved/loveable"
"roch neth/roch-neth": "roch" is "horse". A hyphen is not supposed to be there, for as far as I remember, Tolkien never used hyphens in any of the Elvish languages. Should I be wrong, please correct me. "neth" means "young/girl/sister". So it could be translated as "young horse".
"Ihaes": No idea. Found nothing in either Quenya or Sindarin dictionaries.
"Gûren": There is "gûr" in Sindarin, meaning "death" and "heart", though the latter in the moral sense. The "-en" suffix roughly translates as "my". Altought the accent above the u would vanish is the composition of "guren": "my heart/death".
"Maer fuin": "Maer" is an adjective to mean "useful, good", and "fuin" translates as "night, gloom, darkness". So: "Useful gloom"?
"Erfier": The prefix "er-" means "alone, one", and "fier" is made up. It should be "fíreb" meaning "mortal", or "fair" meaning "mortal man".

I may not be right on eerything here, and I welcome any and all corrections. For translation purposes I used the Hiswelóke Dictionary. Anyway, I hope this helps, Honu_Wahine!

Thanks Elorie by Honu_Wahine on 2010-07-01 02:08:00 UTC Reply

I was rather doubtful as to whether any of it actually had any relations to Evlish, considering the canon rape that goes on on those sites--some of it is quite traumatizing, just by reading the descriptions (and they condone real-person fics!! AHHHHHH!*faints*) Anyways, I was worried for a few there. At least it's proper words, if not proper grammar.
Thanks anyways. The first two were...fairly useful, I guess. I'm still gonna lambast those...travesties, first opportunity I get (goddamn summer homework...).

-Honu_Wahine

I don't speak Elvish... by Eclectus on 2010-06-30 13:27:00 UTC Reply

Not that I wouldn't like to learn; it's a very cool language, and I'm a nerd like that. -ahem- Anyway. From what little I know and have seen, umlauts in Elvish only appear over E's, and *only* when that E is at the end of a word, as a reminder that yes, it is pronounced, as in Manwë, Olwë, and a third of the rest of the cast of the Silmarillion. And I've never seen the U-accent (û) in anything but Dwarvish.

I think, in this case, the author was too lazy to find real Elvish (which technically would be Quenya or Sindarin, not Elvish, but I'm generalizing) but wanted to make ser fic look fancy with speshul languages, so instead se just made up some cool-looking arrangements of letters and accents. I used to do that myself... Then I figured it out. Now I'm working on my own languages. :3

Technically... by Elcalion on 2010-07-01 02:37:00 UTC Reply

in English it's called a "diaeresis", and like our Anonymous contributor has said, it's used to denote that two vowels are to be pronounced separately rather than combined into a diphthong: e.g. naïve, Noël instead of "nayve" "noewl".

In German, it's an "umlaut", and actually indicates a change in the vowel itself (basically adding an "e" - e.g. spätzle can also be transcribed as spaetzle if you're transcribing to something that doesn't support diacritical marks).

The circumflex ^ also appears in Adûnaic (kinda by definition!)

Elcalion, typography nerd
The use of umlauts by Anonymous on 2010-06-30 21:54:00 UTC Reply

Actually, umlauts can appear in other places as well, most notably in diphtongs. Where the English would pronounce it as one sound, Tolkien has used umlauts to clarify pronounciation, such as with Eärendil or Fëanor.

Right, right. by Eclectus on 2010-07-01 19:59:00 UTC Reply

How did I forget Fëanor? I'm reading the Silmarillion right now!

My point stands with the little v-thingy (û), though. I can never remember what it's called...