Subject: Re: Also: paging other Permission Givers.
Author:
Posted on: 2014-05-23 16:45:00 UTC
Though this was directed to PGs and I am. . .not one. . .I just wanted to convey that I think this is a really great idea.
Also those are really nice spreadsheets and statistics and things. Very very nifty.
I know it has not been that long since my last attempt at getting Permission, but since then, I have been doing a lot of reading and a lot of research. And I do believe that I am ready now.
Here are my agents again.
Agent #1)
Name: Spencer Ellis
Species: Human
Age: 32
Appearance:
- Eye color: Sky blue
- Hair: Light brown, short and combed
- Height: Average
Additional Features:
- He is rather fat, but not morbidly obese
Department: Department of Mary Sues, Freelance Division
Personality: He is highly focused on academics, has greater need for dominance, leadership and attention than is usual, and he prefers initiating activity. He is very detail oriented, and can therefore catch things about someone's personality that others wouldn't based on small bits of evidence. He can learn very quickly, and he feels uncomfortable without a detailed plan laid out. He therefore is strongly agitated whenever someone doesn't follow the plan. Likewise, he becomes irritated whenever someone does something without telling him first. He holds the emotional needs of others in very low consequence, and is therefore not generally liked among the other, rather mentally unstable Agents. However, he hates losing someone during a mission and will obssess over their overall safety. Lastly, he holds views of Mary Sues that border on racism, constantly blaming Agent Bessie for the team's shortcomings and misfortunes and calling her a Mary Sue.
Backstory: Spencer Ellis and Melvin Moore were both lawyers in Maycomb County, Alabama, alongside their peer, Atticus Finch, in a To Kill a Mockingbird fanfic. One particular case, the Case of Marietta Crocker, drew the attention of a pair of assassins from the PPC, who proceeded to kill the Mary Sue, Marietta Crocker, in the county jail.
Fascinated by their methods, Ellis and Moore decided to join the PPC. While Moore decided to apply for a job in the Department of Internal Affairs, Ellis tried out for a position in The Legal Department, but was turned down because he "wasn't what they were looking for".
Dissatisfied with this, Ellis joined various Departments- the Department of Plagiarism, the Department of Technical Errors, and eventually the Department of Finance- but was fired for various reasons, such as the inability to play well with others and attempting to get directly involved in missions he was not given. He eventually got a desk job in the Department of Finance, but deeply hated that he was not "doing his Duty".
Agent #2)
Name: A. W. "Bessie" Besserdchenney
Species: Human
Age: 21
Appearance:
- Eye color: Unremarkable Brown
- Hair color: Brown, shoulder length
- Height: A little short for her age
Department: Department of Mary Sues, Freelance Division
Personality: She has a playful wit that she uses to either pull elaborate pranks on people or make fun of them. However, this does not make her intelligent, and she is prone to foolhardy moves in combat. She tries to stick to a strict code of honor; she will not fight an unarmed opponent, unless they show that they are capable of fighting her unarmed; she will not kill innocent civilians, unless they are non sentient; she will not kick someone while they are down or running away, unless they are a Mary Sue; she will not abandon people she is close to or feel need her. She is unaware that she was a Mary Sue in a previous life, and takes offense whenever someone calls her one. She speaks in bad Shakespearean English.
Abilities: A powerhouse duelist, she has an almost perfect balance of agility and strength, which she employs with brutal ferocity in battle. Her Kampilon sword is sharp, her armor is hard, and she can learn from her mistakes and successes.
Backstory: The character that would come to be known as Bessie originated in an unnamed Shakespeare Suefic. She was captured by PPC agents Plank and Wells, and her story was destroyed because of its mechanics and horrible geography and flora and fauna.
The experiments that Plank performed on her worked, if only in part, and Plank insisted that she be inducted as an Agent, despite various protests from a vocal minority in the PPC that Bessie, as she was now called, was not fully de-Sued.
However, Bessie did become an Agent, and her first job was with the Disturbing Acts of Violence Department, Action Division. She participated in several classified assignments, and earned some respect from her fellow agents.
However, she was removed from the Department due to her overly violent outbursts resulting from massive consumption of Flaming Balrog after missions. She was sent to the Medical Department, where she had a six week recovery period, and which sent her to the Character Protective Services upon orders from the Flowers.
It was during this time that Bessie became infatuated by various Harry Potter and Twilight characters.
After a distinguished mission in which Bessie saved Sirius Black from a Mary Sue Death Eater, she was transfered to the Department of Mary Sues as an assassin.
Agent #3)
Name: Vivian Elsa Wells
Species: Human
Age: 29
Appearance:
- Eye color: Brown
- Hair: Dirty blonde, blown back so that it sticks up
- Height: Average
Department : Department of Mary Sues, Freelance Division
Abilities: Aside from her extensive knowledge of animals, plants, land masses and time paradoxes, Wells possesses a strange ability to run at superhuman speeds, which may or may not be connected with the capsules she eats.
Personality: Vivian Wells is a woman with a manic and unruly personality. She really enjoys physical activities that involve her use of her insane bursts of speed, such as racing people. She also loves junk food, and adores the color pink, unicorns, and throwing parties. She goes into long talks about strictly feminine activities, such as cooking, fashion misshaps, the attractiveness of other female Agents, etc. She also likes to go shopping whenever she can, but at the same time she is wise with her money, usually only buying things that she thinks will be useful in some way. She likes to make fun of people when she knows it won't hurt their feelings too much. She likes playing pranks. She has mastered the puppy face, notably being able to use it to sway the stubborn and resilient Ellis on several occasions, and can sometimes whine and complain when she doesn't get her way. Concerning her extensive knowledge, she has trouble recalling what she knows due in large part to her perpetual adrenaline surge. Whenever something happens to someone she is close to, she gets very worried.
Backstory: Previously a member of the Official Fanfiction University of the Twilight Saga, Vivian Wells joined the PPC as a member of the Department of Floaters. However, she quickly gained a vast career, joining various Departments, such as Geographical Abberations, Misplaced Flora and Fauna, Bad Slash and Temporal Offenses.
Unfortunately, it was during her tenure in the Department of Temporal Offenses that she became clinically depressed, due to her getting stuck in a Temporal distortion.
She was helped out of her depression by Agent Plank, who gave her an experimental formula that increases her reflexes and speed after her recovery. After this time, she joined Agent Plank on the field, eventually capturing Bessie.
Wells then faced a troubling time in her life. Because of his exposure to a particularly powerful Mary Sue, Bessie, Plank began to contract Suemonia. However, instead of the usual effects, it began to drive him insane with obsession and self destructive tendencies.
Agent #4)
Name: Alfred Plank
Species: Human
Age: 59
Appearance:
- Eye color: Grey
- Hair: White and messy
- Height: Slightly above average
Department: Department of Mary Sue Experimentation and Research
Abilities: Aside from being a crack shot with a Phaser and an ambitious inventer, Plank is a veteran agent with a highly developed understanding of Mary Sues and Sue Wraiths.
Personality: He has a scientific curiosity in all things to do with Mary Sues, going beyond normal boundaries and even coming across as obsessive and pushy. He takes risks that most other scientists wouldn't take, partly because he is going senile. He considers Mary Sues to be very nearly sentient, but lacking a few crucial personality traits. When he contracted Suemonia, he became borderline obsessed with finding a cure.
Backstory: Little is known about his early life, except that he probably came from a Star Trek fanfic. What is known is that he joined the PPC back when it was called the Organization. During his time in the Department of Floaters, he began showing an aptitude for using chemical components as weapons. Because of this, he was made an assassin in the Department of Mary Sues.
He went through several partners, all of whom have apparently been killed in action. It was then that he met a clinically depressed Agent Vivian Wells, who he helped recover and with whom he began a father- daughter relationship. After her depression was averted, he gave Wells a formula he invented to increase her reflexes and speed.
This began a successful partnership between the two, until nearly five years later, when the PPC discovered a badfic that has since been wiped out. The target Mary Sue was captured instead of killed so that Plank could study Mary Sue psychology and learn new ways to alter their minds.
Because of his contact with Bessie, Plank began to become Sued, which began turning him into the very thing he was most fascinated by. He started taking Bleepium, a serum of his own design meant to block out entire aspects of one's personality.
To this day, he strives to find a true cure for Mary Sues.
Okay, now for the writing prompts. Please keep in mind that for some reason, my Bold option isn't working, so until I fix it, the Sunflower Official will be speaking inside these- **.
Control Prompt- "Mission Assignment"
*Don't you agents ever knock?* The Sunflower Official "demanded", crossing its tendrils.
Agent Ellis grunted impatiently. He was in a bad mood since the previous mission and really did not want to take any attitude from anyone, not even the Flowers. "Just cut to the chase. What do ya have for us?"
"Be nice, big guy." Wells scolded him.
"Did you just call me fat?"
"Thou art rather fulsome, Ellis." Bessie chimed in.
"Shut up, Bessie!"
What followed was an extremely loud argument. The Sunflower Official remained silent until the tumult subsided. *May I debrief you now?*
Ellis was breathing heavily, his face a rather unhealthy red. Wells, who had continued her onslaught of fat jokes a few moments ago, was sitting cross legged on the Sunflower Official's desk with a victorious smirk. Bessie, however, appeared entirely unfazed by the recent argument, as if it had never happened.
*Good. Now, here is your mission report.* It reached its tendrils toward a stack of files, and pulled one out, labeled "'The Daughter's Tale', Chronicles of Narnia Fanfic, Certified Suefic, Agent George Sanfield."
The Sunflower Official offered it to Ellis, who took it from "him" and began reading it. "Daughter of Aslan, animals love her- Dadgummit, I could write a charge list right now."
*That's good. You will need it. This Sue is going to be very powerful, so you should prepare accordingly. We don't want a repeat of your last mission, do we?*
"Got it, SO." Wells told him cheerfully, climbing off the desk and following her teammates to the door.
*Oh, and Ellis.*
"Yeah?" He did not turn his head.
*Agent Plank has missed yet another appointment at Medical. Would you inform him that Doctor Fitzgerald orders him to come in for his check up?*
"Sure, sure. Now, I'm gonna leave your office."
*That would be preferable.*
Random Prompt- "One Agent incorrectly accuses another of something"
"Why wouldst thou accuse me of such a despicable prank?" Bessie demanded, shaking in her armor with indignation.
"Who else would have Neuralized me, huh?!" Ellis roared. "Your kind are always the enemies of the PPC."
This insensitive comment caused Bessie ' s face to flush. "What meanst thou?!"
"That is not how ya say it, Bessie!"
At that moment, Wells burst through the door, her hands occupied with shopping bags of mission-worthy equipment, non perishable goods, and other brand new knickknacks.
"Hi, guys!" she exclaimed happily, adjusting the pink sunglasses she had bought. "What's up?"
"I'll tell ya what's up!" Ellis rounded on her. "When I woke up this morning, I came out here to tidy up after you two. I never want you two in here again without my permission, by the way. But there's about an hour where I can't remember where I was or what I did, and my Neuralizer is gone."
"And he believes that I hath stolen it!"
"Of course it was you!" Ellis bellowed. "I know that it was you! Ya shifty Mary Sue! I'm goin' to the Sunflower Official right now! Yer not allowed ta use dadgum Neuralizers on agents, you-" But he cut himself off as he slammed the door behind him.
"He's going to go complain to the Flowers, isn't he?" Wells asked Bessie casually as they stared at the area where Ellis used to be.
"Most certainly." Bessie now stared at Wells, suspicious. "From whence did thou acquire the money for all those possessions?"
Wells smiled mischievously. "I convinced Ellis to part with it." She put down one of the shopping bags and pulled out a Neuralizer.
This any better than my last attempt? (I hope so. Last time was, admittedly, not very good.) Constructive criticism is, of course welcome. Permission Givers, please don't keep me waiting too long. I'm so excited!
Disclaimer: I've read Neshomeh's replies, but not repeatedly, and I'm not opening them while I write this. So there will be repeated comments between mine and hers.
Other Disclaimer: I'm not going to be looking at 'what's changed' - I'm simply going to look at how your agents/writing stand up right now. And yes, I'm probably going to be focussing on the negatives. If something flags up as interesting, I'll mention it, though.
Third Disclaimer: I know it sounds harsh to put a flat 'Permission denied' in the header, and I would normally leave it to the end of the post - but in this case, I figured you'd want to know before you start reading.
Spencer Ellis
Still a control freak (which could be interesting to see). 'he holds views of Mary Sues that border on racism' is actually an improvement over the rest of HQ, since most agents see them as monsters. Perhaps you mean 'former Mary Sues'?
You claim that Spencer was fired from the Department of Finance, and in the next line you claim he 'eventually' got a job there. You also specify 'desk job', when I happen to know I pointed out that every DoF job is a desk job. And you don't explain how someone who's been kicked out of Plagiarism and DTE managed to move from Finance to the DMS.
Bessie
Her 'strict code of honour' seems to be... er... not being a cartoon villain. 'Egads! This girl doesn't ruthlessly attack defenceless people, slaughter the innocent, kick 'em while they're down, or abandon her friends? Get me the phone number for the Vatican, we need to nominate her for sainthood!' No.
No-one has ever called her a Mary Sue, had her object, and then pointed out that no, she actually is? In the PPC, home of nitpicking? I find that hard to believe.
I'm aware that she speaks bad Shakespearean English because you can't write it properly. That's a terrible idea, it really is. Among other things, it means she will never be able to stop - because you can't write the 'fixed' version.
In her Personality you claim 'she is prone to foolhardy moves in combat'. In her Abilities, you claim she's an excellent fighter who learns from her mistakes. Mismatch much?
How can a badfic be 'unnamed'? I assume you mean 'I'm not going to give a name', but that's far from the same thing, and this is the second assumption I've had to make.
Where did these 'classified assignments' come from? PPC missions aren't classified - what would be the point? If you're suggesting something outside missions, fine, but I hope you have a good explanation for them being given to a rookie.
You are still treating the move from DCPS to DMS as a promotion. I've asked twice now why you're doing that, and you haven't answered either time. It's disrespectful to the agents of Character Protective Services to treat them as 'people who aren't good enough to be assassins yet'.
Vivian Wells
(I'll look at your 'changed up' Personality section here)
Still a hyperactive fangirl (which, again, could be interesting). I'm dubious about her being able to sway 'doesn't care about people's emotions' Ellis with her puppy-dog eyes, though. Also, 'She likes to make fun of people when she knows it won't hurt their feelings too much'? That doesn't sound so much like 'make fun of', which is an act that does hurt people's feelings.
Depression after getting stuck in a temporal distortion sounds unlikely. That seems more like it would cause a phobia than depression. Also, since she's fully recovered, why have you even left it in? You know from the last thread that it's sticky ground to walk on.
Why did Wells accept the 'experimental formula'? This is post-depression, so she just... took random drugs from Plank? According to your description, an addictive drug. Er... why hasn't he been fired, if he's handing out physiology-altering addictive drugs to random people? Because that's a really bad idea.
Plank
How does his 'scientific curiosity' in 'Sues go beyond normal boundaries? PPC Assassins kill them. One DMSE&R agent cheerfully chopped a finger off a still-alive 'Sue. What are you claiming he does beyond that?
He did not join the PPC back when it was called the Organisation. No non-Flowers were in the Organisation. The first non-Flower, Makes-Things, joined about ten years after the name change.
The Department of Floaters is relatively new, but you seem to be implying Plank joined them at the beginning. That's flatly impossible - they postdate his joining by a good twenty years.
His relationship with Wells is... seriously messed up. 'He began a father-daughter relationship' with someone he was treating (unauthorised) as a patient. He gave his 'daughter' addictive drugs.
You seem to be implying, sort of, that Plank's decision to capture Bessie led to his transfer to the DMSE&R. I can see that, though again, you've left me no choice but to start making assumptions. You haven't explained why 'spends time around Mary Sue' led to Plank starting to turn into one. Again, I could make assumptions, but I'm tired of doing that.
You claim he's 'going senile' - at 59, which seems unlikely, particularly for a Star Trek character. You don't tie this to the Bleepium that's blocking half his mind off, even though it looks like you were thinking it.
I do like the idea of 'DMSE&R researcher becomes convinced Mary Sues can be cured'. In fact, I like the basic idea of all four of your agents. But it seems like every single one of the details either flags up as wrong, or seriously disturbs me.
Control Prompt
Using *asterisks* to mimic the italics of the Flowers is an acceptable substitution. But don't call it 'bold'.
The SO is... closer to IC, but not quite there. And he also makes several bizarre mistakes: he says 'debrief' when he means 'brief', and 'here is your mission report'; both of those create the impression that it's a previous mission under discussion.
I also can't imagine why he hasn't commented on Wells sitting on his desk.
Ellis' 'accent' wanders a lot. You go from 'Did you just call me fat?' in this to 'Yer not allowed ta use dadgum Neuralizers on agents' in the next piece. If you want a verbal quirk, it has to be consistent. And this is miles away from it.
I can't really see the SO saying something is 'good'.
And... why is the SO passing messages from Medical to the DMSE&R via an assassin? That's... the most complicated way you could possibly do that.
Random Prompt
This highlights the fact that Bessie should really know she's a former 'Sue by now. People keep saying it to her face, you'd think she'd get the hint.
'I never want you two in here again without my permission, by the way.' Not only is this a very bizarre statement - it's their Response Centre, they live there - but it's inserted into the paragraph pretty much at random.
Neuralysers don't work like that. You have presented it as:
-Leaving a hole in his memory
-Allowing Wells to 'persuade' Ellis to give her money, despite the fact that that's the last thing he seems likely to do.
A neuralyser wipes your memory of a specific period of time and fills it in - or lets you fill it in - with false memories. So what you're saying happened is:
-Ellis comes out to clean the RC.
-Wells joins him.
-Wells persuades him to give her money, or outright steals it.
-Wells persuades him to give her his neuralyser, or outright steals it.
-Wells neuralyses him and tells him 'you don't remember the last hour'.
-Wells gets out of the RC fast enough that Ellis doesn't notice her leaving.
That... ain't a likely series of events, is what I'm saying.
And... overall, there's something seriously missing from these writing samples: humour. You just have... people saying things. The closest you seem to come to trying to be funny is 'ha ha fat jokes' and 'ha ha Wells tricked him'. But they don't come across as funny.
Seriously. Go back and read your Control sample. It contains roughly 33 sentences. Count how many you think contain any humour at all. I don't think it will be many.
Conclusion
In addition to all the above statements, your punctuation is erratic - '*Don't you agents ever knock?* The Sunflower Official "demanded",' and '"Be nice, big guy." Wells scolded him.' are both examples of this.
And... I mean, if I was just having to ask questions about background details - even foreground details - I could accept it simply as 'Dark Brother 16 isn't very good at writing bios', which wouldn't be surprising, because it's a useless skill that very few people have. But I've been throwing out factual errors, seriously disturbing ideas, and impossibilities left, right, and centre. So, with regret, I'm going to have to say Permission Denied.
hS
Well, at least I know what else I need to work on to improve. Oh well. Thank you for the advice, you and everyone.
Looks like I have some work to do.
Somewhere in that post, I mentioned that writing bios is a hard and mostly useless skill. Shortly thereafter, while working on the Permission Request Statistics (which is still a thing), I ran across a 2011 thread on the subject:
This thing (may take a while to find the correct point in the doc; it's Bluesunnyday's Permission request, if the link fails)
In the course of that discussion, my wife said a few things that struck me:
Way back when dinosaurs roamed the Board, the very first Permission Givers were very informal. If someone requested Permission, the PGs would do a quick check for serious systematic grammatical problems, maybe ask for a quick description of the proposed agents to be sure they weren't horrific 'Sues, and then they'd usually give Permission. I can only think of a few occasions where they turned someone down, and it was for enormous, glaring problems. And people weren't required to clock a certain number of hours before they were permitted to perform the sacred rite of Requesting Permission.
It wasn't an audition, it wasn't an initiation, it wasn't a huge deal. If you take a look at the guidelines Jay and Acy set up, they're light, concise, and completely non-threatening.
However, the movement from the original requests -- use our gadgets, use our naming structure, run a spell check -- to a month-long personal audition is a leap. If someone can communicate clearly, their Agents pass the sniff test, and they've read a few good missions, they deserve Permission.
I certainly agree the PPC should have standards. But if it were up to me, I would probably empahsise the need for thoughtful, high-quality concrit after publication, rather than emphasising the preventative measures beforehand. The PPC could meet newbies where they are, help them improve, and it would feel more inclusive.
This led to a rather large discussion which resulted in... scrapping the hard one-month time limit, and nothing else.
(Another comment from that thread, from Neshomeh this time: Capitalizing "permission." It's a simple little thing, and I'm fond of it, but perhaps it needs to go. Only really important things get capitalized.)
I know, I know: I've just driven through a massive shift in how we grant Permission, I should sit on Laurel and relax (though she probably wouldn't appreciate it). But I had an idea. An idea I really like.
How about we scrap everything?
No, no, wait, come back! It's not what it sounds like.
Some people are happy with what we've got. They don't want to do a lot of writing and have to scrap it, they like to be able to lay out their agents in full bio form. And that's great. I'm not suggesting we get rid of Permission 3.0.3. But I am suggesting we make it one half of an either/or, one method of getting Permission. The other method being:
Write your first mission. Get it beta'd, edited, everything. Post it on the Board as your, oh, PerMission. A Permission Giver will read it, and give concrit. If they say Permission Denied, take the mission back down and rewrite it, start from scratch, switch to the other method, whatever. It won't be part of the PPC canon. If they say Permission Granted, then follow the concrit (post-publishing editing should be encouraged!), but leave it up. It's now part of the PPC canon, can go on the Wiki, and you can work on your next one.
This method solves several problems all at once. It increases the number of missions being written (even if, inevitably, some of them are bad missions). It encourages a culture of both betaing (which I suggest making a requirement, not a suggestion) and concrit - giving and accepting. It encourages improvement even of published missions. It allows you to 'show, don't tell' your agents' personalities, your knowledge of the PPC - all the things we're looking for.
It even allows things like Pippa's idea of using only free-to-use agents - because by writing a full mission, you'll show whether you can use them. It de-ritualises Permission (a 'no' would become 'please rewrite your mission', which is what we'd say to anyone who wrote a bad one) while keeping it as a hard barrier around the PPC canon. It lets people demonstrate that yes, they can comment both critically and amusingly on a badfic (which the current process doesn't). It ensures that people who get Permission are willing to spend the time to, y'know, write missions. And it ensures that every first mission serves as a high-quality introduction to the agents in it.
Like I say, I'm not suggesting full replacement. Writing an entire story when you know you might be told to scrap all the characters can be hard - it depends on how you feel about writing. But I do think it could be a viable alternate method - perhaps even a stronger one.
So: what do you think?
hS
It looked very, very daunting before I tried it. But after giving it a go, it turned out to be a lot easier than it looked.
So, I guess I'm just no good at telling what's a good system and what isn't. I'm not going to give any opinion on the new ideas, because I'll almost certainly be wrong.
I do find the waiting a month before any hope of official acceptance to be fine except for some unofficial details.
I was actually thinking about my agents in slice-of-life scenarios, and ended up with something completely unfunny that could have started from a 36 prompt.
The prompt occurs well-after my agents meet. The classic bucket-door prank turns into a horrible medical emergency because of a water allergy.
What I am saying is that the daunting can be manipulated by the persistent. Not everyone needs to be stubborn, I can imagine some Hermiones getting through without any conflicts.
I'm a bit divided on this idea. Part of my reticence comes from my dissatisfaction with the mission system itself. It's far too easy for writers to get themselves stuck in the rut of "Go into badfic. Snark. Complain. Snark. Rage. Remove bad elements. Snark. Leave." Giving prospective Permissioners the option of jumping right into missions seems like a good way of just digging the rut deeper. The new Permission method that the Board came up with had seemed to me like a good and vaguely challenging way of broadening the kinds of stories that could be found in the PPC. Or rather it did until I read more and more posts of people cherry-picking their prompts and then complaining about the whole process.
There was also your saying that "It increases the number of missions being written (even if, inevitably, some of them are bad missions)." I'm not sure quantity over quality is something that works all that well for the PPC.
That being said, anything that helps further "a culture of both betaing... and concrit" is a major plus in my book. The bio method of presenting agents has always felt a bit silly to me; like you said, I'd rather be shown what I need to know about a character rather than told. And if a short story can tell me something about writer, then a full mission can tell me a lot more.
I suppose I'd tentatively support such a proposal. (Promising more betaing and concrit goes a long way with me, apparently.) Still, I'd like to see how well it plays out in practice before saying whether or not PerMissions should be an actual thing.
PC
Perhaps one of the guidelines for a permission mission could be a slice-of life either from the list of 36 or whatever you can make up.
Perhaps there could be an anti-rutting rule that a certain percent of the stories be slice-of-life rather than missions. Though I have been seeing stories where the agents don't have enough down-time to sleep between missions.
I think that PerMissions would be a very good idea. Being a neophyte to fanfic writing myself, I know that sometimes the act of writing in and of itself helps a writer to confront the questions of characterization, tone, etc. Having a PerMission alternative sounds like a good idea to me.
Or, Neshomeh's Totally Predictable Response.
Can we please keep in mind that the system we have grew up for a reason? Back in J&A's day, they were in the process of creating a culture based on everyone's shared experiences in the LotR fandom, specifically the subculture of fanfiction.net. We are now in the state of preserving the culture. The rules are naturally going to be different. When people started coming in from TV Tropes and other non-fanfic-writing backgrounds, it became necessary to teach them the culture they were missing before they could jump in. That's part of what the whole process of waiting and applying is for: to make sure the culture gets passed down to people who don't have it already. This is important. We should not just chuck it out.
I was going to say a lot more stuff, but then I realized it's mostly coming from a place of "I am personally way too stressed out to deal with this right now," so I deleted it.
~Neshomeh
Which is why I wasn't actually suggesting we chuck everything out, and didn't say anything about the wait (the mention of it was that we deleted 'it must be one month' three years ago). What I was suggesting was a method of getting Permission which is 'show, don't tell' - rather than describing your agents, write a mission with them. Then a PG takes a look as normal.
I'm sorry if my quotes were misleading in that regard, and I'm equally sorry you're stressed. If it's something you want to talk about, you know where my email address is. Regardless, this isn't a 'we must do this IMMEDIATEMENT!' - it's just an idea.
hS
Weird stress reaction aside, here's what I think are the potential pros and cons.
PerMission Pros:
* Less formal, more inviting; more people might apply if they had this option.
* Shows how the person will actually write missions.
* Shows who the characters are rather than describing them in a bio.
* Encourages more beta-reading and concrit.
* More writing happens.
PerMission Cons:
* The current (new) system already solves the problem of showing vs. telling about the characters; that's what the prompts are for.
* Missions take more work to write.
* Missions take more work to read and evaluate.
* Lack of serious betas. (In my experience, plenty of people are willing to skim for obvious SPaG issues, but not so many are willing to grapple with major structural concerns of the sort that require cutting and/or rewriting to fix.)
* People could leave up bad missions and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
* This is sort of a free pass to start writing a mission whenever you feel like it, even if you still have to wait to actually ask for Permission. This could cause (more) confusion over what's allowed before Permission and what's not.
* Quantity should not be preferred over quality.
PerMission Con Counterpoints:
* The current system doesn't solve the problem of seeing how someone will write a mission, which is different from slice-of-life scenes.
* Missions might be more work, but it's what people actually want to be doing, so it would be more fun.
* If a mission is really bad, we won't have to read the whole thing to see it.
* People learn to be better betas by practicing.
* People historically seem to have the integrity not to post missions if they don't have Permission, so they probably have the integrity to take them down if we ask them to.
* People can start writing missions before they get Permission anyway if they insist on going against the spirit of the rules. Nothing we can do to stop them.
* Can't make an omelet without breaking eggs and getting it all over your hands so you have to wash them before you can touch things again, and oh damn, there's some on the counter, too, now I have to clean that up... Eggs are inherently messy, but delicious when they cook right, is what I'm trying to say.
So... I dunno. I don't hate the idea, but I'm still mistrustful. If we were to give it a try to see what happens, would the trial have to be like a year long? More? And would it be really confusing if we then decided to stop allowing it again?
~Neshomeh
To the cons, naturally:
* The current (new) system already solves the problem of showing vs. telling about the characters; that's what the prompts are for.
True - but things like, in this very thread, Wells having previously suffered from depression and now being on speed are still being told, not shown. Also, this is more of a pro of Permission 3, not a con of PerMission 4. ;)
* Missions take more work to write.
Again, true - but it's what people are going to be doing. Someone who doesn't want to put in the work to write a mission... er... doesn't need Permission, because they're not writing missions. :D If what you mean is 'which is work you may have to scrap and redo', then yes, that's true. That's the main reason I'm suggesting parallel systems, rather than straight replacement.
* Missions take more work to read and evaluate.
Also true - but a bad mission will probably not require reading to the end. It may well be that the hallmark of a successful PerMission is that the PG reads right to the end. ;)
* Lack of serious betas. (In my experience, plenty of people are willing to skim for obvious SPaG issues, but not so many are willing to grapple with major structural concerns of the sort that require cutting and/or rewriting to fix.)
This could well be a problem - but surely that's an opportunity to improve, not a problem? I mean, we want all PPC members to be expert writers-slash-betas-slash-reviewers, no? So something which promotes that is good? ^-^
* People could leave up bad missions and we wouldn't be able to do anything about it.
True - but people could post NC-17 smut labelled as PPC missions and we couldn't do anything about it. They could start Facebook groups and we couldn't do anything about it (just for example... oo). One possible 'solution' to this - as a general problem - is to expand the role of the Wiki. If we state that all 'canon' agents have to be listed on the Wiki, then any post-2013 missions featuring non-wiki'd agents can be safely ignored. (Alternately, a category for 'uncanonical' agents could be set up - which would also let people build their wiki page before they have Permission. See? Opportunities!)
* This is sort of a free pass to start writing a mission whenever you feel like it, even if you still have to wait to actually ask for Permission. This could cause (more) confusion over what's allowed before Permission and what's not.
True, and that's probably the main argument against it. However... I have this sneaky suspicion a lot of people do that anyway. Certainly we have a lot of first missions which come out the equivalent of six months after the wedding. :<br>
* Quantity should not be preferred over quality.
Absolutely - but if we're talking an extra 24 missions a year, half of which are good quality, and the other half of which are immediately discarded or rewritten (ie, treating Permission Requests as a sort of semi-open beta), then I'm not sure that issue arises. Certainly a higher quantity of the same (high) quality is good, right? ^~
[A smiley in every response... yep, fun]
hS
As many of us can attest to, missions take a long time to write. As such, we'll have many more fics that are claimed than we do now. Now, this isn't necessarily a problem, but it could potentially be.
My suggestion is that we put a wait period on when you can clam badfic. Since the wiki already makes you wait a few days, ten I believe, before you can edit the List of Unclaimed Bafic. I think this is reasonable, and it stands as a way to stop newbies from saying, "Hi, my name is X, and I found the Board through ABC. Also, I want to start my Permission right away, so here's the fic I want to claim."
Giving newbies a little time to acclimate and decide how they want to participate in the PPC is what we're already doing, to a degree, so I don't think this would be too much to ask of newbies, but I'm not a PG, so you guys obviously know better if this could work than I do.
... people claim vastly more fics than they're ever going to write. Miah's just demonstrated that two-thirds of agent pairs never get beyond their fourth mission, and I'm willing to bet a fair fraction of those only do one. If someone's claiming fics at all, they tend to just keep claiming and claiming, beyond what they're likely to get written.
But apart from '30 Hs', I don't think I've seen people try to claim one that's already claimed. It's not like there's a shortage of badfic!
hS
AND WHY ARE YOU SITTING ON HER.
Seriously though, those are words from a long time ago. Shouldn't there be some sort of statute of limitations on quoting your wife?
(I like the idea, though)
I like the idea of there being more than one path to permission. Just looking at the 36 random prompts, I dispensed with the dice and read them at random until I found something that I could see my agents doing. I'd like to start with writing missions and learn the finer points of who they are through that, especially since reading missions seems to be more efficient for learning about the world than using the wiki.
I'm not minding the one-month waiting period before official permission. However, it feels like I'm being ignored as far as character feedback until the clock runs down.
I'm also liking that Beta'ing be a requirement as long as the process doesn't take too long.
A huge smile broke over my face while reading this. I only wish I hadn't finished writing my Permission request… (I'm just editing it now) but that sounds GREAT! But maybe, I think a few days of getting to know somebody, maybe until they could edit the Unclaimed/Claimed Badfic articles. Then, they could ask. As you said before, we don't want people putting their introduction post right before they ask for Permission. Maybe a few days - a week of just chatting on the Board, then they ask for Permission?
Oh, also… Should I post my Permission Request, or should I write a mission, now? (I was actually planning on posting it later today. >.
Well seeing as this is only a suggestion and not an actual change I'd assume that you've still got to go through the new-old way of asking for Permission (as in doing the request, not writing a mission).
Hope that helps
Storme Hawk
Though this was directed to PGs and I am. . .not one. . .I just wanted to convey that I think this is a really great idea.
Also those are really nice spreadsheets and statistics and things. Very very nifty.
The current Permission-with-a-capital-P setup is not something I consider necessary or useful to the operation of this group. It feels unwieldy, and it gives more fuel to the idea that we're nothing but a bunch of hidebound neckbeards who crap all over someone else's work because it doesn't meet arbitrary definitions of goodfic. I'm not a fan, is what I'm trying to convey here.
The way hS suggests we operate here is much, much easier to make work, for a lot less effort on the part of people who've already got Permission. It encourages a collaborative, helpful culture rather than a standoffish, isolationist one; while we're not completely insular, I think the PPC could stand to be a bit less daunting for potential writers than it currently is. To give you an idea of what I'm talking about, I was worried I'd be laughed out of the Board if I even attempted a permission check, and I'm a published art critic. We need to create a nurturing atmosphere on the Board, because I think that'll help people stick around and write more missions in general. I'd be interested to see the activity statistics of users that get denied permission.
tl;dr: the PPC is intimidating, and I don't think it needs to be, and I definitely don't think it should be.
I can do that!
Of the thirty Permission Requests which were made on the Board in 2012:
-13 were granted
-17 were denied.
Of the 17:
-5 were resubmitted (and granted) later in the year.
-2 were resubmitted (and denied) later in the year.
So in total:
-23 people applied for Permission.
-13 were granted it.
-10 never received it.
Of those who did not receive Permission, all have since departed:
-3 within one month of their (last) failure (though one of those was kicked out)
-1 within 3 months
-3 within 6 months
-3 inside a year (though outside 2012)
Of those who did receive Permission, 5 are still active (firemagic, the Irish Samurai, Cyba Zero, Desdendelle, and IntelligentAirhead). Of the other 8:
-1 left within one month of their successful request
-5 left within 6 months
-2 left inside a year (in 2013)
-1 left after about a year and a half
Oh, and of those who successfully resubmitted, only one (Desdendelle) is still around.
hS
Heh, heh. It looks like I'm quite the persistent one; some people will probably say I don't know where to quit.
-Pours some tea-
Trade Winds tea, anyone?
Now, if you'll permit a follow-up question, how many missions have we got out of that crop of neophytes?
TheScribe - Veronica Banks & Lisa Frick - 0
firemagic - Tera & Ali - 6
Alleydodger - Percy & Vorce - 0
AnnaBee - Robert Vernet & Mundar o' the Five Hills - 0
the Irish Samurai - Skeet & Amelia Renner - 1 (+ 3 interludes)
theusualsuspectshines - Sketch E. Fox & Josh - 0
Cyba Zero - Cyba Zero & Eagrus Khan - 6 (+ 2 interludes)
Crimson Flight - Joseph Vladimir & Andrew Jones - 1 (pre-Permission cowrite)
KittyNoodles - Veralyn Amberwing & Caroline Moor - 2 (+ 2 interludes)
desdendelle - Anebrin & Desdendelle - 4 (+ 1 interlude)
Lilac Lielac - Tanya Carter & Magdalen Blackwell - 3 (2 cowritten)
IntelligentAirhead - Cale Serfe & Narciss Miner - 2 (Cale in cowrites, 1 pre-Permission)
ThatOne - Kaylin Fischer & Will Rose - 0
Totals:
0 stories post-Permission - 6/13
1-2 stories post-Permission - 1/13
3-4 stories post-Permission - 3/13
5+ stories post-Permission - 3/13 (firemagic, Cyba Zero, Desdendelle)
So yeah. Half the people who gained Permission in 2012 never used it (despite one of them having previously co-written). That's... rather more depressing than I expected.
(Disclaimer: this data consists of 'how many missions do their Permission agents have listed on the Wiki'. If it's gone unlisted, yes, I might have missed it)
hS
I'm really regretting bringing that up.
I was going to go on a rant about how we needed these reforms to bolster the staying power of individual Boarders and mission writers. This... this killed my desire to do so. People are going through the rigmarole and doing nothing with it. That's sad and strange and I don't understand why you'd do that; it's like climbing a mountain only to throw yourself off it a few feet before the summit.
I think I need to think about this for a while.
There used to be an annual PPC survey, but the person who created and compiled it has gone. It consistently showed that people who have Permission never wrote all that many stories, per person. There were very few who had written equal to or more than the number in the Original Series.
I don't have a copy of the last one saved, but maybe hS does? I think you've been made the official stats guy. (To paraphrase a book I just read. Stats Guy, sir :D) I have actually been meaning to bring the survey up to see if anyone is interested in doing another one. I always liked them.
This is by agent (not collating authors who have multiple agent pairs, not even cheating on my own) from the Complete List of PPC Fiction. I don't want to accidentally miss adding part of anyone's agents in, though I know some people would be in a higher category if I took the full time to do all the checking. I'm also not going to guarantee that the bottom two categories are 100% accurate, but definitely within a couple. (I kept getting slightly different answers.) Also, I really wasn't sure how to include the histories and Department of Operations as they aren't listed by agent, so they aren't in here.
But as limited as all that, here are some numbers.
# of Missions: # of agent pairs
1-4: 153
5-9: 49
10-14: 8
15-19: 4
20-24: 4
26: Jay and Acacia
38: Tawaki & various
49: Trojanhorse and Paddlebrains
51: Allison and Tasmin (I didn't add all of Indemaat's agents, but I know her total count is in the 70's at least.)
So by my count there are about 222 agent pairs listed. Out of that number, about 153 pairs have fewer than 5 stories. The majority of those were only 1 story. As you can see only three agents/agent pairs have surpassed Jay, and only 4 groups have gotten over 20.
The numbers would skew a bit higher if it were by author, but honestly I am too lazy to go through all 222 agent listings and the probably close to 100 other stories to be sure I have all the right authors attributed. However, the point still stands, most people who have Permission and write for the PPC write far fewer than five stories.
So, apparently I seriously underestimated my level of laziness, because I have now gathered wayward agent pairs together to be counted with their authors' totals.
This is based on the Complete List of PPC Fiction. There are notes at the bottom. I have this by author name on my computer (alphabetized, even!), if anyone wants that posted I can do that. This isn't restricted to missions. One of my favorite things about the PPC is that it isn't restricted to just missions, and I think infrastructure, history, interlude, and the harder-to-categorize items have just as much value.
One more note for the top:
I have attributed co-writers separately, if they have listed themselves as separate entities. For instance, Trojie has 63 PPC stories and Pads has 50. They always claimed their separate characters, and are listed separately on the wiki. Iximaz and Randa are listed together on the wiki and in the author attribute for one of the characters, so they have one line in the tally. These weren't the only cases of either example. This does function to inflate the total number of fics represented here.
Total: 180
1-4: 116 (64.44%)
1: 46 (25.56% of total)
2: 33
3: 20
4: 10
5-9: 37 (20.56%)
5: 14
6: 7
7: 3
8: 7
9: 6
10+: 15.00%
10-14: 8 (4.44%)
10: 4
12: 2
13: 1
14: 1
15-19: 5 (2.78%)
16: 1
18: 2
19: 2
20-24: 5 (2.78%)
20: 2
23: 1
24: 2 (Acacia is here)
25+: 9 (5.00%)
26: 3 (Jay is here)
31: 1
39: 1
50: 1
64: 1
68: 1
138: 1
NOTES
Then there is Huinesoron, who kind of needs his own category, due to sheer volume and variety. The count listed in the agent section is 38 (I think. There were agents lurking everywhere it seemed). There are things in the miscellaneous section that I am not sure how to count. Such as do you count the Advent Calender? What about the PPC Computer Game or the Misadventures of Jaycacia? I'm not sure on several, so if you'd like, could you give us a proper count (if you have time and all)? My best guess right now is 138, which is what I have listed.
I am not sure who wrote the account of the 2013 Blackout or the PPC Manga.
Neshomeh, I believe some of your things may be missing from the list. I know you have character journals, but they aren't on the list. If you are interested and have time and energy for it, could you give a proper count as well?
Web page down:
Mini-Balrog Cookbook
HQ Temple of All Faiths
Multiverse Monitor
tamryandangel
Not on glossary of characters:
Oozaru Angel has agents Tenki and Branch
Agents Claire Jubilex and Soledad Snowbird, unknown author
kittynoodles has Agents Caroline Moor and Veralyn Amberwing, also Agents Fiona Darcy and Gilbert Beckett
FishCustard has Agents Evie and the Fisherman (also the story count is off by 3 on Complete List)
EileenAlphabet has Agents James Vulpes and Saxo Cruore
duothimir has Agents Burning Heart and Johnny Denver
EllipsisFlood has Agents Priyala and Saline
2012 Data
0 stories: 46%
1-4 stories: 31%
5+ stories: 23%
2012 fractions of stories written:
1-4 stories: 57%
5+ stories: 43%
Miah Data
1-4 stories: 64%
5+ stories: 36%
Broad agreement between 2012 and Miah totals.
Therefore:
Total number of writers: 180 (Miah data) - 54% of total given Permission
Total given Permission (all time): 333
That's... a lot of people. About a third of the total population of the Board, I think.
hS
The Histories
Origins (12)
Lofty Skies (10)
The Reorganisation (20)
Crashing Down (22)
The End of the Beginning (23)
The Agents
Tales from DOGA (18)
Newbies (8)
Nightstalkers (2)
Wanderer (1)
Department of WhatThe (6)
Not the DIO (3)
Fallen Feathers (2)
Elsewhere in Action (4)
Infrastructure (4)
The Flowers (6)
Continuity Council (2)
Backstories (8)
Other Stories (3)
Swan's Egg (3)
Alternately: Sundering
Rest of the Beginning (5)
Time Will Decide For Us (2)
Arthurverse (5)
Agentshipping (6)
Myths (5)
TCDA (16)
Data (0)
Others
Playscriptes (3)
Metaware (... 2?) Essays (3) Games (...1)
Other Links (1)
Generic Surface (1)
Totals =
Counting each of the Histories as one item (rather than counting chapters): 86
Counting the Histories as separate chapters, but ignoring all the AUs: 168
Counting everything: 207
And that still doesn't include Jaycacia, since I think she has to be excluded on the grounds of not existing at all.
I, uh... I might write quite a lot.
(And I've restored the Temple of All Faiths to operation. I'll be working on rehosting the Second Multiverse Monitor soon... ish)
hS
I suspected that I was seriously underestimating for you. It doesn't change my percentages, because you are still in the above 25 category, but that count is just amazing.
Interesting point. In the 1-4 category, the total number of stories represented by those numbers is 212. I can't say for sure that that number is perfectly accurate, or if it is inflated by the way I attributed co-written stories to each individual author. But broadly speaking, you, individually, have written the same number of stories as two-thirds of the rest of the PPC authors. (You're doomed to people Listening to you forever.)
PS: I suddenly remembered all those amazing concrits Kaitlyn did a while back, in-character. I don't believe those are included on the Complete List anywhere.
Ooh, ooh! Do I get to quote Louis XIV now?
Ahem.
I'm not sure what you're thinking of with the concrit thing, but you might be referring to Terri's reviews? If so, those were mine, not my wife's, and add another nine to my alarming total.
hS
What sorts of things are you looking to include? Just narrative fiction, or do things like filks and RP logs count? What about the PPC Handbook-related pages?
What have you already counted for me, by the way?
~Neshomeh
Nume and Ilraen, FicPsych, Derik with Earwig and Gall, and the "Henry" story in Future AU's.
The others I wasn't entirely sure about. I counted character journals that were listed on the Complete List, because those clearly are stories. Do you want these other things counted? I mean, I have agent pictures that took me some effort and I am decently proud of them, but I wouldn't count them (mostly because still using a free program, not actual drawing). I have a little few paragraph thing about the NCIS Mini Adoption Center that I don't count in my total, because it is so short. On the other hand, I do count the Halloween story from a few years in Kelok and Unger's tally.
So I guess I'm trying to say that it's how much do you consider it part of their story? Or the PPC's story? Was it something you hoped everyone would see and notice or did it function more like the bios on the wiki page?
With anything that isn't clearly a story meant to contribute to the PPC continuity I don't want to make those value judgments for other people.
I'd count my stuff this way:
* Missions & interludes: 19
- Nume & Ilraen: 10
- Derik & partners: 4
- FicPsych & TYH: 4
- Agent Neshomeh: 1 (I really have to figure out how to fit "Brown DragonRider of Pern" on my site.)
* Other stuff: 15
- Fill the Plotholes: 7 (Not counting the lost one I never re-wrote.)
- RP logs: 3 (The ones I thought complete enough to put on my site. Might add the Halloween one at some point, but I dunno.)
- Filks: 3 ("Sod Rest Ye Merry, Brethren," "'Twas the Night Before Christmas in HQ," and "FicPsych Song" are long and narrative-y. The first is historical, the latter two could've happened.)
- Character journals: 2 (Not counting individual entries.)
Total things: 34
And more is coming. {= )
~Neshomeh
20-24: 4 (2.22%)
20: 2
24: 2 (Acacia is here)
25+: 10 (5.56%)
26: 3 (Jay is here)
31: 1
34: 1
39: 1
50: 1
64: 1
68: 1
138: 1
I had counted 7 for FicPsych and 11 for Nume and Ilraen (based on the List), so I had you at 23 before.
That is to say, I started at the top of the list, and have completed the additions to the Glossary up until FishCustard's agents--meaning that I've added all of Kittynoodles' agents, but none of FishCustard's. (Just want to be clear).
Why am I posting this information? Because that's where I'm taking a break, and I don't know whether or not I'll pick it up again today (my energy's running low). So if anyone else wants to continue, that's where I left off.
~DF
Also, found the author of Agents Claire and Soledad, who is named Sylibane. I can't say the name sounds familiar to me, although I'm sure someone else would remember; this was probably before I joined the Board.
Anyway. Updating the Glossary with this info. Should be done reasonably soon (that is, sometime today :P )
~DF
I think it might be a good idea to start encouraging all PPC members to put their name somewhere in the story, even if it is posted in something like our LJ that has an account name. A few people I had to go by their blog account name, which of course may or may not be the name they used here. It is especially hard to find the author's name when the story is posted in Google Docs.
I am hoping some of the oldbies will recognize some agent names and tell us who wrote them.
Author of Agent Thals and Aral: 1
Author of Agents Dee and Milask: 3
Author of Agents Jet and Jicky: 3
Milask was written by Leto Haven. Dee was written by... Dee. As far as I can tell, this was the author's Board name, as is often the case.
I can't tell if Jicky and Jet were two people or one, but it wouldn't be wrong to attribute them to jickyandjet.
If the GeoCities URL that goes with Thals and Aral is any indication, they were written by Aranel. That name rings bell—it was definitely a Boarder's name. I'm afraid that's all I know.
Seconding the request to include your name somewhere in your missions, especially on GDocs!
~Neshomeh
Of the five names that have come up, Jicky and Leto Haven are the only two who are preserved in the Board archives. I can't personally remember Leto working with anyone, so I think Dee and Milask were both his. I think the same applies to Jicky - I don't remember a Jet.
As for Aranel, she could have just slipped between the cracks. I dunno.
hS
I just remembered, I wrote to Leto while I was working on the Department of Bad Slash article to ask about the DBS Harry Potter Division. He had this to say:
"I only ever wrote for [Leto and] Milask. Dee was a my writing partner for a short while."
So, there you have it, straight from the source. {= )
~Neshomeh
I'm not sure Dee was ever on the Board, though - she(?) may have been in the chat, whichever version of it was around back then. Or, just possibly, I may be...
... dare I say it?...
... wrong. ^_~
hS
Or overlapping so slightly that we wouldn't necessarily have picked up on it as the wee babes we were.
Dee shows up in "A Taste of Blood" with Jay, which dates her involvement around early-to-mid 2003. Leto was actively writing the General Store stories between April and December 2003, and there's a mention of Milask being out on missions in the fifth chapter (that's second-to-last). I don't know when Dee's missions with Leto were written, but he says they only wrote together a short time. I think it's reasonable to assume she wasn't around much later than 2003, posting or not posting.
Anyway, the Board records are obviously incomplete, so even if she did post, we still wouldn't necessarily know about it. Witness the fact that my name doesn't show up at all until June 2004, and I know I was around for a good while before then. 2004 was when I got integrated enough to start doing stuff like putting together the tech glossary and the updated menu—and there's no record of me asking for input on those, which I most certainly did.
~Neshomeh
She remembers the name (though nothing else), so the idea of Dee being a 2002-2003 member who (speculatively) was friends with Jay and didn't stick around after she left would work.
I know full well the Board archives are incomplete, believe me - I've gone over them in excruciating detail. They do tend to catch people who posted consistently for months, though. There's a six-month slot in 2005 with no records at all, sadly...
hS
But yes. I definitely agree. Author names should be somewhere around. It's a bit disconcerting to read a mission and not have any clue who to direct the praise to! :)
~DF
... Jet and Jicky were I think written by Jicky. Dee and Milask... I want to say Leto Haven, but I'm not positive. Thals and Aral I've never heard of, but the broken list suggests the name 'Aranel'.
When Tuesday rolls round, I'll check against my full Board stats archive; that should reveal which names were actually used.
hS
Sounds quite interesting actually. I happen to have access to a survey website that allows you to answer anonymously if you want (or I can but a simple 'What's your PPC name?' question in there if need be) due to me both being a course rep and the fact I do Maths at Uni. So if enough interest is around I'd be more than happy to create and compile an annual survey if someone gave me a bit of a helping hand to work out what sort of questions to put down.
... I'd make one of those six-image meme things.
...
...
...
... ah, you all knew it was coming.
hS
And, for what it's worth, I'm a fan of the PerMission idea. I keep meaning to come back and talk, but every time I see a lengthy thread of discussions about what Permission means, doesn't mean, should mean, should never mean, does and doesn't communicate to newbies... I suddenly remember all the research notes I should be taking and close the browser.
More simple is more better, I say.
(Also, we might be a little less intimidating for you if you'd refrain from being quite so insulting towards people. ;) Sure, the PPC isn't perfect but I do think you're overstating things a little.)
Link here.
I'm not featured on the webpage, but w/e.
Also, I'd probably have been less insulting towards you if y'all weren't being quite so passive-aggressive. Guess nobody wins in that game. =]
The link's neat though! I hope you didn't take that as a challenge; as a fellow critic (I'm more a film guy than art in general, though) I was genuinely interested. I'll read through it, but which story was yours?
Now as for your second claim, no, it really hasn't been justified by how this community has behaved towards you. Putting aside your attacks against me, you just called this entire community "nothing but a bunch of hidebound neckbeards" and I don't see why you would write that expecting people not to take it as an insult. That's just the most recent case, as well, and of course leaving out the threads about in-universe concerns because we're just talking about the actual community here.
Because I like it here. I think we do good work. However, almost every time I link someone to TOS or the Wiki, their reaction is that of an elderly Victorian gentlewoman to a mooning street urchin. It's a similar reaction that I and a load of other people in my acquaintance have had to OFUs over the time I've been here.
So yes. Take being called hidebound neckbeards as an insult. It's an insult levied at all of us by people who aren't part of the PPC community and don't really understand what it is we do. That's precisely why I'm talking about it in this conversation. We can improve. We can demonstrate that we are not that. HS's ideas for permission reform might not solve everything, but as far as I'm concerned they're a damned fine start if we want to change our image.
Or, speaking more accurately, I prefer our current status of having barely any image seen by the internet at large at all.
You're basically correct when you say that people don't always react well to learning about us. It's happened numerous times in the past: authors of a missioned fic finding out about it and being upset (not to mention one individual who was watching the Board for new missions and went and told the original authors about it every time; that lasted a few months), someone mocking us on some game's discussion board, and, of course, the historical booting of the Original Series off of the Pit. There was also the problem of the TV Tropes page that covered us, which for a while was attracting large groups of newbies who had gotten a skewed view of the PPC, and didn't really fit in, until a group of us fixed up the PPC page and made it more representative of the community as a whole.
So, no. I don't think we need to change our image. I think we need to continue being quiet. I'm not worried what other people might think of us, I'm worried that they might think of us at all. What do we do if a large group of trolls came in and started deleting multiple pages of the wiki? Or spamming everyone's email accounts? Or reporting the remaining PPC spinoffs on the Pit to admins to get them taken down, losing them forever?
I don't want to deal with any of that. So let's not worry about advertising. Let's not flaunt what we do. Let's just keep doing what we've been doing, here, with our friends whom we know and trust.
--doctorlit, the internet user equivalent of sakoku-era Japan
Erm. In seriousness, though, I'm not suggesting complete isolation. Just . . . we've been doing fine as we are, with a small but constant inflow of newbies entering over time. I don't want to see that change, especially if it draws a bunch of negative attention in the process.
And I don't really want to make this devolved into an argument or some kind of flame war, I deal with enough of those already. However, I think it needs to be said, that not everyone has those kinds of reactions, maybe the people I know are more 'accepting' (it's not quite the right word but I can't think of the right one at this moment, hence the ''). But they all know about it, have some basic understanding of it, and those who have read fanfiction before (and some who haven't) see the point of what we do (others think it's a sort of fun thing to do whether there's a point or not). Most of them don't understand any more of it besides the quick five/ten minute explanation I manage to get through, but they understand that it's important to me (and by extension, us), to do it and that's why we're here now, why the PPC is here, to do what we believe is important to us and to find like-minded people in the depths of the internet. All of us have something that's important to us, and if other people can't understand and think we're "hidebound neckbeards" because of it, then fine.
That's all I can reasonably think of saying for the moment without going into 'passionate speech mode'
Storme Hawk
Bessie seems to retain a lot of her Sue-traits and I feel that to do her well, you are going to have to keep asking yourself if the situation compliments her skills too well.
For your other agents, I'm wondering if they are TOO interesting or if I have a warped sense of good characters.
My main advice would probably to be to find a good beta reader or two, plus maybe review your own stuff a little more; I feel like the miscellaneous errors you made could have been caught with a thorough reading. You shouldn't have to edit and repost bits of your permission application in the comments as clarification or to fix things that you missed, basically.
Find a nice honest friend or even someone off the PPC beta directory and just let them rip apart your writing. It'll be rough to start with, but it will generally help you to learn to catch more of your own slip-ups.
You do seem to have a good sense of understanding how your characters will interact with each other, which is good! Keep that up. Just keep seeking constructive criticism (which you are receiving quite a bit of right now, which is good), take that criticism to heart, and keep trucking along. :)
I will, thank you. I know someone who could beta read for me.
But there are still some bits that don't quite make sense. The big ones have already been pointed out, but as well as those, there are still a few little ones.
If something bad happened on their last mission (as the SO hints), why aren't the agents more anxious about being summoned to the SO? For all they know, they could be there to be disciplined rather than just receive a mission.
(And was that the real reason the SO gave them the mission in person? Was the anxiety they were supposed to feel about being summoned supposed to be the punishment for whatever they did wrong last time? If so, why didn't you show them feeling it?)
Why is the SO acting as a messenger for the Medical Department? Wouldn't it make more sense for Medical to send the message direct to Plank on his console? Or at least to Plank's department head, instead of the head of a different department?
Is Ellis serious when he says he never wants Wells or Bessie in the RC without his permission? How would that even be workable?
Is Bessie's Shakespearean English deliberately wrong because she's from a Suefic where the author got the Jacobean grammar wrong? If so, why didn't Plank's treatment cure it? Or is the fact that it didn't cure it part of the reason why people don't think Bessie is cured?
(And why don't the Universal Translators translate it to our modern English anyway?)
But anyway, on the whole this feels much better. The character interaction in the two prompts feels much more natural, less forced than last time. You've been getting to know your agents better over the past couple of weeks and it shows.
OTOH the backstories still feel awkward and contrived, like you were working from a long checklist of things you want included, and trying to force the characters around that.
If the PGs turn you down again, maybe you could move back to an earlier point in the story arc (e.g. when Wells and Plank first met) and make that the team you apply for permission with? That way, you don't have to explain everything in one big lump, and the early story can develop more fluidly, more naturally over a few missions and interludes.
Thank you for the constructive criticism. I have some answers to them.
1. I would have elaborated at the end of the previous mission, but I have in mind that Ellis convinced the others they have nothing to worry about, because the incident was legitimately not their fault. In short, they accidentally stumble upon an antagonist from Imaginations Collide. I intend to have them coexist.
2. The SO is acting as messenger because Plank is beginning to go off the deep end to the point that he is ignoring orders from the Head of his Department and Medical to do his research. It's going to be a running gag.
3. He thinks he is serious, but he is just irrationally angry. That's why he is so convinced of his accusations and why he is demanding impossible things.
4. Yes, her Shakespearean English is deliberately bad. I tried to do it correctly, but it's really hard to do. So, I decided to play upon Shakespeare being befuddled and what have you. And yes, that is one reason why people in the PPC, who are all of my invention and who will play an important role at some point, think that she has not been fully cured. As for the Universal translators, it's possible that she refuses them.
And finally, thank you for saying so. That actually might work better. Two separate teams coming together after the terrible catastrophe that I have planned.
First, I feel it is too soon for you to be asking again. You recently said yourself that you haven't read many missions aside from emergency-related stuff, and unless you're a speed-reader with lots of time on your hands, I don't think you can have made much of a dent in my recommended reading list (or other material) since then. The fact that you seem to have the impression that it's normal for agents to receive their missions directly from Flowers and that you still don't get that the Flowers speak in italics, not "quotations," not bold—which hS explicitly told you last time—seems to confirm this.
Second, your characters still raise too many serious questions for me. For instance:
* What's "strictly feminine" about cooking, fashion, and appreciating female attractiveness? That reads as rather sexist, don't you think?
* Why has everyone been bounced around through different departments? Ellis and Wells particularly, but Bessie and Plank don't seem to have been content with one assignment to their names, either. Are you playing PPC Department Bingo or something? More importantly, have you considered that that makes them look sort of incompetent?
* Why does Plank require an external trigger to become obsessed with curing Sueism? Why does that trigger have to be Suemonia, since it doesn't even work the way you want it to in the first place? It would make more sense to just have that grow out of his natural scientific passion, IMO, and you wouldn't have to mess with an established PPC concept that way.
* After all that talk about depression in the last thread, how is it that you still figure clinical depression (as opposed to depressed mood) can be caused by a single instance of getting stuck in a temporal distortion and then completely cured... by speed pills...? Or did Plank just randomly decide to give her those after she recovered? I'm not clear on the progression of these events. Or how the character is improved by having superpowers anyway.
* Did you know that the only agent known for using a neuralyzer (note correct spelling) to get her way was a creepy, psychotic nutjob who made her partner miserable?
* Shouldn't Bessie twig onto the fact that there's something weird about her, with her unusual speech pattern, awesome fighting skills, and Ellis calling her a Sue all the time? Has she never stopped to wonder about those things? What does she believe her past to be?
* How did Ellis, with his poor track record in other action departments and inability to play well with others, get himself transferred from Finance to the DMS—on a fairly uncommon team of three rather than the usual two, no less?
Whether the other PGs will find these things to be prohibitive or not, I dunno, but I think you're letting your enthusiasm get the better of you. You seem like a nice guy, and I apologize for being harsh on you in the past (and maybe now), but I really want to see you slow down and think things through more.
~Neshomeh
First, I will address the reading. Yes, I do have a perhaps unhealthy amount of time on my hands, and I am a fast reader. I'm due to graduate high school real soon- actually, tomorrow. I'm due to graduate tomorrow, and I haven't bothered to get a job yet, so that is why I have so much time. As for the speed reading, I have taken some dual credit classes, so the skill kind of developed out of necessity.
Next, I know perfectly well that they don't usually get missions from the Flowers. I have something specific in mind to explain this, and, yes, that means I intend to use this section, once it is perfected. The only hint that I will give anyone about that is that it has to do with Imaginations Collide.
Next, yes. It was kind of stupid of me to mix up the words "bold" and "italics". However, I am having some trouble with mine right now, as I explained before the prompt.
Oh, yes. You are right, it does seem sexist when I put it that way. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. Let me change it up a bit.
Agent #3)
Personality: Personality: Vivian Wells is a woman with a manic and unruly personality. She really enjoys physical activities that involve her use of her insane bursts of speed, such as racing people. She also loves junk food, and adores the color pink, unicorns, and throwing parties. She goes into long talks about such activities as cooking, fashion misshaps, the attractiveness of other female Agents, etc. She also likes to go shopping whenever she can, but at the same time she is wise with her money, usually only buying things that she thinks will be useful in some way. She likes to make fun of people when she knows it won't hurt their feelings too much. She likes playing pranks. She has mastered the puppy face, notably being able to use it to sway the stubborn and resilient Ellis on several occasions, and can sometimes whine and complain when she doesn't get her way. Concerning her extensive knowledge, she has trouble recalling what she knows due in large part to her perpetual adrenaline surge. Whenever something happens to someone she is close to, she gets very worried.
- Any better?
I have considered that it makes them look incompetent. I was going for that all along, sort of in an implied, people-say-it-behind-their-backs sort of way, and therefore I was going to leave it off the bios to address later.
Suemonia? Did I accidently leave that in there? I must have accidentally used an older version of his bio. Oh yes, the personality section again. Here is the real one.
Agent #4)
Personality: He has a scientific curiosity in all things to do with Mary Sues, going beyond normal boundaries and even coming across as obsessive and pushy. He takes risks that most other scientists wouldn't take, partly because he is going senile. He considers Mary Sues to be very nearly sentient, but lacking a few crucial personality traits. When he became Sued, he became borderline obsessed with finding a cure.
She was not cured by the pills, she was given the proper treatment. I don't know if it has an actual name, but I planned to elaborate on some of her post depression habits, which include siting in the Corpse Yoga pose, breathing evenly while listening to New Age music. The proper way to treat clinical depression is to use talk therapy or to prescribe antidepressants, however, there are some cases of electroshock therapy being used. It is my understanding that one cause of clinical depression is social isolation (which is kind of odd to me, since the clinically depressed tend to isolate themselves), but what I originally had in mind was that she saw things that shocked her.
She was given the pills after her successful recovery. My intentions for the serum inside the pills is that they are addictive, and part of Wells' character development is her coping with that and eventually overcoming it. To make it harder for her to want to give it up, it gives her some sort of power that also contributes to her manic personality.
I did know that, but I can't remember who it was who did that.
As for Bessie, I am basing her off of someone I knew on Fanfiction.net who was unnaturally stubborn about her characters *not* being Mary Sues. A donkey was more submissive than she was. Uh, the author, not Bessie. But as for her past, she doesn't really think about it, no. She isn't really all that bright.
I will address that in my missions, but the idea of the unnatural team and him getting onto it is that they are misfits, even among the diverse PPC agents that there are already. When I put them all together, they have almost all the variables for success, and they only get that success by working together on this particular, unorthodox team.
I want to explain why without being a jerk. I'm not sure that's entirely possible, but please try to read this as me writing out what's happening in my head rather than, like, "I hate you; please die" or something.
I don't hate you; please don't die. But what I'm getting most strongly from your responses to me and Pippa's Ghost is basically as follows:
1. This is still just a setup for Imaginations Collide to you. I see this as a problem because A) you figure it's okay leave information out of your Permission stories because it's eventually going to be explained in/by IC, and B) because of the terrible catastrophe it involves. I am still and will be forever against involving the PPC in a terrible catastrophe for the sake of the separate project that's leeching care and attention to detail from work that is supposed to impress us.
2. "Suemonia? Did I accidently leave that in there? I must have accidentally used an older version of his bio." ... So you didn't check over your request thoroughly enough to make sure it was the version you actually wanted us to read before you posted it?
2.5. The italics thing. I grant that this is minor, but you could have waited to post until you figured out the HTML, or you could have put the writing samples in a separate location where you could make it work and given us the URL. You knew you might be jumping the gun on asking again, and Flower speech was specifically pointed out to you as something to fix. (Also, for future reference, words in *asterisks* get auto-corrected to bold in some word processors and chat clients [and /slashes/ are used for italics]. That's why it looked more like an error in understanding than an error in word choice to me.)
3. Speaking of links, I linked to the character with the neuralyzer problem in my post. You could have clicked on it to get the name, and then I could be sure you really know about the character. It would have been super-easy and won you PPC Knowledge Points. Yet you didn't. This is incomprehensible to me. (Also, my point in bringing her up was that using a neuralyzer to violate someone's mind for personal gain is really, really icky, not something even a prankster would do if she's got a shred of human decency about her. I never wrote Cameo as a real agent for a reason.)
4. Okay, so Wells wasn't given random highly addictive superpower pills to treat her depression. That's good. Instead, she was given random highly addictive superpower pills for no reason at all, at least not that you felt important enough to tell us here. That's... not good.
5. While I grant you it makes sense for a former Suvian to speak in doggerel Shakespearean, the primary reason you give for this is "I tried to do it correctly, but it's really hard to do." And I mean, yes, sometimes things are too much of a bother, so you make a different choice, and that's good, but this? Instead of choosing to do something different, you're choosing to do something badly. Deliberately-bad can be a legitimate choice, but not when it's because you actually can't do it correctly.
I realize I'm focusing on the negative here (which is why I'm not going to make the final decision), and I do appreciate that you can take concrit and really want to improve as a writer. My problem is, I'm a person who notices patterns, sometimes to the point of distraction, and I keep seeing this pattern of underlying carelessness as shown by the examples above. Concrit and good intentions can't fix that. Only giving the necessary time and attention to your work can fix that. I would like to see time and attention in a Permission request, not promises that I'll see it later when you write the real story. Show, don't tell, yes?
~Neshomeh
I understand. Thanks for being so careful about this. I'll try to take all of this to heart.
However, I want to point something out real quick. Just because it has to do with both the PPC and IC, doesn't mean I will not explain it in the PPC. But I get your point, I should explain it in the actual permission request, if it's that important.
Again, thanks for your time. Sorry to have (I guess) sort of wasted it in this case. Next time, I will be ready! :)
The board uses old-fashioned HTML codes.
Type (but without the spaces) to mark where the italics start, and (again no spaces) to mark where they'll end.
After a lot of scrolling and checking, I remembered that my two Permission requests were about a month apart, but then just because that's how long it took me, it doesn't mean that's how long it should take you, we're 2 different people after all (unless there's something we're not telling each other, or ourself or however that would work :P).
It should be noted that I am in no way a PG and so my thoughts below don't really count for much.
I like Spencer Ellis, well like may not be the right word for it, but he's one of those characters that I like as a character but would absolutely hate as a person IRL if you get what I mean. Just one thing, how did he get into the DMS from the Department of Finance, did he ask? did he misbehave til he was fired? Just a little thing that I'd like filled in personally. I would also like to find about about Moore at some point, does he appear from time to time to talk to Ellis? How is he doing in DIA? What is he like? etc.
With Bessie, I'm not so sure, I think she works as a character and could be quite fun to interact with, but I'm not so sure on the 'bouncing around' that she's done, Ellis I can understand, Bessie no so much. Personally I'd remove her bit about being in the CPS, instead having her go straight to the DMS after she comes out of medical.
Wells, seems a bit weird to me, you seem to have made her into a somewhat stereotypical young-teenage girl. You've also had her bounce around many different departments that it almost feels to me like you're trying to get some kind of 'achievement' by having had at least one character in each department before you start writing missions for them. You've also missed out how she comes to be in the DMS, the last department you list is Temporal Offences, then you have her thing with Plank, yet Plank is in the Department of Mary Sue Experimentation and Research, which isn't even an action department, so why, if she as partnered with Plank either of them would be out in the field, I don't really get. Finally the last couple of lines are a bit confusing, you say Wells 'then faced a troubling time in her life' but don't say how it was troubling or anything, instead moving on to something about Plank, which should rightfully be in Planks's part not Wells'.
Which leads me onto Plank, I've never seen someone ask for Permission with 4 characters, 3's a rarity. But onto Plank himself. He seems OK, I think. Once again though you seem to have forgotten to tell us how he ends up in the Department of Mary Sue Experimentation and Research, it's not really clear especially when you consider's Wells' backstory. Another thing is that from Plank's backstory he and Wells seem to have worked together for about 5 years in the DMS, now I'm no expert, but that sounds like a very long time without either of them going insane/needing to take a rest.
A quick note as well. It's Inventor not Inventer.
Overall (I'm not going into the prompts in this post, I've already gone on long enough) I think it's better than last time, but I'm not sure if you need as many agents as you've got at the moment. Personally I'd keep Ellis and Bessie and introduce Plank and Wells at a future point, I'd keep mentioning them though, maybe even making Plank and Wells the pair that recruited Ellis, little bits like that that hint to them until you've got to a point where you can write all 4 of them in.
These are my thoughts anyway.
Storme Hawk
(who's currently browsing the archives to find out just how far back they go)
After a lot of scrolling and checking, I remembered that my two Permission requests were about a month apart, but then just because that's how long it took me, it doesn't mean that's how long it should take you, we're 2 different people after all (unless there's something we're not telling each other, or ourself or however that would work :P).
It should be noted that I am in no way a PG and so my thoughts below don't really count for much.
I like Spencer Ellis, well like may not be the right word for it, but he's one of those characters that I like as a character but would absolutely hate as a person IRL if you get what I mean. Just one thing, how did he get into the DMS from the Department of Finance, did he ask? did he misbehave til he was fired? Just a little thing that I'd like filled in personally. I would also like to find about about Moore at some point, does he appear from time to time to talk to Ellis? How is he doing in DIA? What is he like? etc.
With Bessie, I'm not so sure, I think she works as a character and could be quite fun to interact with, but I'm not so sure on the 'bouncing around' that she's done, Ellis I can understand, Bessie no so much. Personally I'd remove her bit about being in the CPS, instead having her go straight to the DMS after she comes out of medical.
Wells, seems a bit weird to me, you seem to have made her into a somewhat stereotypical young-teenage girl. You've also had her bounce around many different departments that it almost feels to me like you're trying to get some kind of 'achievement' by having had at least one character in each department before you start writing missions for them. You've also missed out how she comes to be in the DMS, the last department you list is Temporal Offences, then you have her thing with Plank, yet Plank is in the Department of Mary Sue Experimentation and Research, which isn't even an action department, so why, if she as partnered with Plank either of them would be out in the field, I don't really get. Finally the last couple of lines are a bit confusing, you say Wells 'then faced a troubling time in her life' but don't say how it was troubling or anything, instead moving on to something about Plank, which should rightfully be in Planks's part not Wells'.
Which leads me onto Plank, I've never seen someone ask for Permission with 4 characters, 3's a rarity. But onto Plank himself. He seems OK, I think. Once again though you seem to have forgotten to tell us how he ends up in the Department of Mary Sue Experimentation and Research, it's not really clear especially when you consider's Wells' backstory. Another thing is that from Plank's backstory he and Wells seem to have worked together for about 5 years in the DMS, now I'm no expert, but that sounds like a very long time without either of them going insane/needing to take a rest.
A quick note as well. It's Inventor not Inventer.
Overall (I'm not going into the prompts in this post, I've already gone on long enough) I think it's better than last time, but I'm not sure if you need as many agents as you've got at the moment. Personally I'd keep Ellis and Bessie and introduce Plank and Wells at a future point, I'd keep mentioning them though, maybe even making Plank and Wells the pair that recruited Ellis, little bits like that that hint to them until you've got to a point where you can write all 4 of them in.
These are my thoughts anyway.
Storme Hawk
(who's currently browsing the archives to find out just how far back they go)
I thought that your stories seemed good! But agents don't get their assignments from Flowers... They get them on their console. The SO seemed a little bit out of character. Otherwise you stories seem to be fairly good. :3
It is my understanding that Agents do occasionally get assignments from Flowers. It doesn't happen often, but it did happen when Fritz and Silas did Cupcakes.
Out of character again?! Oh, darn. I was certain I'd get it this time. Oh well, I can always keep trying later.
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate them.
It's understandable that the Flowers might want to add in a little extra drama before sending their Agents into a fic that has traumatized an entire fandom. Why, if the Floating Hyacinth were a less serious-minded Flower, she might have even spiced up the announcement a little more for added effect. Maybe under an over-the-top Department Head like the Captain Dandy, the announcement would include a secretary entering the room wearing a hazmat suit as an ominous glow shone behind them, and the suited figure would carry a lead-lined box over to the Agents, and slowly, cautiously remove a printout of the fic from within it.
Yes, calling the Agents in to see a Flower is a little less efficient than just sending the mission data to the console, but if you just send an electronic message with the assignment, you don't get to see the looks on your employee's faces when they find out it's them who need to go into this story everyone's been putting off for years on account of its sheer terribleness. The hazmat suit-style additions might not be an enhancement to that, but it would make most Agents squirm in apprehension, which I imagine would also be fun to watch in a schadenfreude kind of way.
That's for special cases, though. If Agents had to report to their Flower for every mission, the Flowers wouldn't have any time to do actual work with all of the dispatching they'd need to do themselves. The Board of Flowers would probably eventually assign some poor Flower to head up its own section exclusively to handle the reading and assignment of missions, just so the other Department Heads could actually do their jobs properly.
All the Flowers seem a bit too serious of temperament to pull that, except maybe Captain Dandy; any time an agent pair's got a Legendary in a published mission, I'm pretty sure it's just arrived about as uneventfully as any fic does.
Also, I was pretty sure that was only because the mission was so bad… oh well. :)
That makes sense.