Cool; thanks! (nm)

Subject: Cool; thanks! (nm)
Author: Alleb
Posted on: 2015-05-13 01:50:00 UTC

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Trying to write a realistic 10th Walker. by Alleb on 2015-05-10 19:01:00 UTC Reply

Hey everyone, I'm Alleb. To get right down to business, I'm trying to write a realistic Tenth Walker. As a very quick rundown, my OC is named Amy, she can use a sword (fairly well, but not at the level of any of the non-hobbit Walkers, or most Rangers for that matter), has the advantage of bringing a full camping backpack to Arda, and knows Sindarin and some Quenya (what we have of either, anyway). I'm trying to figure out how she will effect the plot- I really have only two solid ideas so far; she goes with Sam and Frodo when the Fellowship breaks, but remains with the Ithilien Rangers due to the temptation of the Ring, or she is captured with Merry and Pippin. I'm not sure how well either thought will work- any suggestions on how she might otherwise derail the plot?

Welcome to madness! by Silenthunder on 2015-05-11 12:16:00 UTC Reply

Have some chocolate! I stole it from Remus Lupin, but I'm sure he won't mind.

Here's a tip: No line-stealing. Don't have her say lines that the characters use in either the books or movies. It's incredibly annoying.

Also, be careful with how she could share her knowledge of the Fellowship's future. If she does, there must be consequences. One OC I read about went with Gandalf to see Saruman, and Saruman read the girl's mind, finding out about the movies. The catch was that she wasn't sure how much he'd seen, and Elrond worried that there might not even be a Fellowship.

Noted by Alleb on 2015-05-11 14:27:00 UTC Reply

I'll keep line stealing to a minimum- the minimum being zero. That's an interesting fanfic though- what if the enemy gained all te knowlege? That could be an interesting AU. Thanks for the chocolate!

Welcome! (nm) by Darkotas on 2015-05-10 20:17:00 UTC Reply
[Waves] by Huinesoron on 2015-05-10 20:01:00 UTC Reply

I see you've read Tenth Walkers - awesome! Glad to know it's doing its job. ^^

My initial response to this question is, um... how big an answer do you want? I can do anything from a five-line comment on your plot suggestion (in your response to Iximaz), to a two-page spiel. My preference is usually for the latter, I'll point out.

To prepare for whatever you're looking for, that plot: you say she wants a herb which she knows about from Aragorn, but... how did she find out about that in (I assume) Modern Earth? And when did she arrive in M-e? (I won't ask 'how did she get there?', though if it's something relating to Middle-earth lore, you might want to tell me anyway to get comments. ^~)

hS

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Waves back! by Alleb on 2015-05-10 21:10:00 UTC Reply

It definitely is! Awesome story- so thankful you wrote it! Feel free to write as much as you want; spiels are appreciated! The way it goes is she arrives on Weathertop a year before the Fellowship sets out, meets Kali in Bree, and everything is fine for several months. Kali falls ill a few weeks before the date of the Fellowship's departure, and Halbarad (who Amy met soon after arriving in Arda) rushes her and Amy to Rivendell. Elrond knows the sickness, and then Aragorn says that Minas Tirith has the cure- or, as Iximaz suggested, Dol Amroth does. As to how she got there, that's a little involved and I would appreciate help working out the MANY kinks. So, after Sauron was defeated in the War of the Ring, he was permanently unbodied. As this is, technically speaking, an AU, he finds an unguarded door into the Void, finds Morgoth, and the two immediately set to scheming. They are, of course, geniuses, and they realize as you did that throwing a random person into the Quest will derail everything. Now, as the Void is said to be outside time, it makes some sort of sense that one can enter, say, in the Third Age, and exit in modern day, using the Earth is an older Arda hypothesis.

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Well, you asked for itÂ… :D by Huinesoron on 2015-05-11 10:01:00 UTC Reply

I’ll wander through your outlined plot in rough order. So, the arrival: surprisingly, I have no problems with it! Sauron is explicitly not dead after the Ring is destroyed (though he is permanently depowered). The idea that over the next six thousand (per Tolkien) years he could sneak out into the Void, and figure out a way for Melkor to get a tiny tendril of power into Arda to drop Amy back in time – sure, why not? It’s about Sauron’s level of sneakiness, too – he likes to use stealth as a blunt instrument. ‘I shall sneak my Nazgul into the Shire, then have them run around hissing at people in black cloaks! I am a genius!’

There’s a glorious quote from Tolkien about Sauron: Gandalf he did not understand. But certainly he had already become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behaviour was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. That… really does sum the Dark Lord up.

Language is a problem. You say Amy ‘knows’ Sindarin and Quenya. For the sake of argument, I’ll assume Ardalambion S/Q, though any reconstruction will handle the same. The problems are three:

-While reconstructed Quenya is reasonably coherent, there are no native speakers of Quenya outside Valinor in the Third Age. The only person Amy will meet who grew up with it is Galadriel (and possibly Elrond, depending on what Maglor decided to raise him on). Of the Fellowship, we know Frodo has enough to say ‘hi’; Aragorn probably reads it fairly well, but may not speak it (apart from rote phrases); actually there’s a decent change that Boromir knows a little – but on the other hand, those sound like the lessons he would have ignored in favour of useful military stuff! Betcha Faramir speaks the ‘Elf Latin’. But it’s not a tongue you could use to communicate in the Third Age, is my point.

-The Dunedain speak Sindarin, as does Legolas – but we don’t. Sindarin is very fragmentary. Ardalambion has an article consisting basically of guesses at the verb system; we have no verb ‘to be’. Amy could probably communicate with Halbarad using nouns (’I mass’ for ‘bread’, for instance), but that’s about it.

-And the main one… people in Arda don’t speak English! They speak Westron, and that’s going to be horrendous for Amy. For starters – the names are all different! She could maybe get Halbarad to take her to the Prancing Pony by asking (in Sindarin) for ‘roch ylf sâd’, ‘horse tankard place’, though since ‘ylf’ also means ‘brand’ she might end up at a stable which brands horses instead! But the Pony wouldn’t have a name she could understand, Bree wouldn’t be called Bree, even Barliman would actually be called something incomprehensible (‘Butterbur’ is a translation of ‘Zilbirâpha’) – she’d have no way of knowing she was in the right town! (A list of all known Westron words is here, if you want it.)

For that matter, once she joins the Fellowship (oh yes, we’ll get there) – she’ll have very little chance of working out which is Merry and which is Pippin. Unless Razanur ‘Raz’ Tûk happens to mention his surname, how would she know?

Speaking of Westron: Kali is a boy’s name. In fact, it’s Merry’s name (and has the same meaning).

So, how to get out of this bind? Obviously you could have Sauron magically let her understand Westron, but that’s… pretty boring. So… why not learn Adûnaic? That’s the language Westron (Adûni, technically) is descended from; with a grasp of Adûnaic (as much as that’s possible), she could probably make herself understood – insofar as you could understand someone from the time of Chaucer. (It’s also a good language to raid for ‘Kali’s’ name – it could be an old family name. Though Bree-folk used floral words… ‘Kulbî’ means, roughly, ‘Potatoes’, if you like. Or ‘Inzil’ means ‘Flower’.)

I’ll move on from language now ^^. If Halbarad struck up a friendship with Amy, he might well take her and ‘Kali’ to Karningul (sorry, that’s ‘Rivendell’ in the translation). And since elves aren’t magic, it’s entirely possible Elrond couldn’t cure whatever the problem is, and that there might be a southern plant that could help.

You seem to be implying Amy leaves Bree after Frodo (sorry, Maura) reached Rivendell. That should be okay; while Sauron’s got his eye on the West, he has no reason to care about Amy, ‘Kali’, and a random Dunadan. So she should be fine. The Fellowship wasn’t chosen until shortly before departure, either, so that’s okay.

(As to where the herb is found: the idea of it as a Haradrim plant is nice. Either Minas Tirith or Dol Amroth could have a stock; the Houses of Healing in M-T presumably get supplies from all over Gondor. Boromir might be a better person to say they have it – while Aragorn did spend time in Gondor, it was a long time ago.)

Mm… how did she get into the Fellowship? The answer has to be ‘Elrond chose to put her there’, but why? I’m going to go with ‘Boromir’; he’s the best person to escort her to Minas Tirith (and bless the Gondorians for using Sindarin names!), and he’s already said he’ll travel with the Fellowship until it’s time to break off. The idea of sending Amy along with them makes as much sense as sending Boz – this isn’t a war-party, after all! Aragorn, Legolas, and Elrond would have no problem with the fact that she was female, and in fact would be baffled at the suggestion that there could be a problem. Not sure about Boz or the hobbits, and I know Gimli (for his name, see here) would have issues – the dwarves protect their women (because there’s less of them).

But of course, that messes with the ‘Nine’. In this case, I suggest my ‘Tenth Walkers’ Pippin idea – Elrond toyed with the idea of sending Pip (Raz) back to the Shire as a messenger, so in this case, he should do it! Only this is Pippin we’re talking about – he would absolutely chase after the Fellowship anyway. And I doubt Gandalf (no Westron name, ‘Mithrandir’ is ever-useful) would send him back once he’d arrived…

So, how could she impact the plot? She’s read the book, right? Here’s some ideas:

-Tell Gandalf what’s in Moria. There’s… not really an alternate path to take (Caradhras rejected them, the High Pass is full of orcs, the Gap of Rohan is full of Saruman), so I suspect Gandalf would still go through. He might even still die – I mean, knowing there’s a balrog doesn’t do you a lot of good when it’s a balrog. But it’s something she might well do.

-If she doesn’t… well, Galadriel can read minds! She can also speak Quenya, which means that unless Amy is very good with languages (ie, she’s picked up more than just very rudimentary Westron), Galadriel is one of the few people she can hold an actual conversation with. The Lady of Lorien would probably take the time to do so, as well – she’s pretty nice like that. Though don’t expect her to try and make Amy feel better - if she deserves to feel guilty, the woman whose mother named her ‘Man-Maid’ is going to make sure she does. Nicely, of course. ^~

-The reason the Fellowship sailed down Anduin was to avoid making a decision as where to go. The reason Boromir didn’t go off by himself was that he wanted to take the Ring to Minas Tirith, though he didn’t really talk about that much. If Boz fastened his hopes onto something else – say, Amy, who’s given away several times that she knows the future - he might well have gone straight from Lorien to Gondor. Then the Fellowship would be able to… let me check a map.

Right, the best route if you’re not hesitating about where to go is across Anduin as high up as possible, then down through the Brown Lands to the northern Ash Mountains. With Aragorn in charge, they probably wouldn’t aim for the Black Gate – and with Gimli on hand, they might well be able to find a way through the northern mountains. With the Fellowship on a different path, and Boromir back in Gondor with a genuine Seer (and there’s precedent for those – Glorfindel prophesied the Witch-King’s manner of death, and Malbeth the Seer predicted Aragorn’s trip through the Paths of the Dead) – but with no March of the Ents – it’s anyone’s guess how the War of the Ring would fall out.

But let’s say you don’t want to do that (you should, though!). You’ve got your Amelia!Sue available to meddle things back into line, so you can use that to drive the Fellowship down to Rauros. Then what happens?

Um… Amy doesn’t go with Frodo. Sam only manages because, well, he’s Sam, and Frodo needs him. Unless Amy somehow kept track of him in the forest (and she wouldn’t, he’s a hobbit), she’d have no chance of catching him at the boats. Unless, I guess, she used her foreknowledge and went straight there? But Frodo wouldn’t have taken a boat if he was being watched, and I don’t know what he’d’ve done instead.

She also doesn’t get captured with M&P. Why would she? The orcs were looking for halflings. They’d just kill her.

Which means she’s there with Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli when everything’s over. And that could be quite a change: with four people, Aragorn would be able to split the team up. Two could go after Frodo and Sam, and two after Merry and Pippin. I think he probably would, too, though what the divisions would be, I’m not sure.

Alternately, he might still deem the Ring beyond their help – but decide to set out for Minas Tirith directly himself. I believe he says in canon that he’ll take up Boromir’s responsibility to defend the city. That would mean a trip directly down Anduin – and he would probably take Amy with him (since that’s where she’s heading), leaving Legolas and Gimli to hunt Merry and Pip.

At that point, the story is pretty stable – most of the actors are in the right places. Aragorn wouldn’t look in the Palantir, so Sauron wouldn’t attack as early, which would mean that Mordor wouldn’t empty as Frodo and Sam arrived. You also wouldn’t have the Paths of the Dead – which means the Corsairs would reach Minas Tirith. But they’d do so long before Sauron’s army did, and could probably be defeated.

But let’s say you didn’t want to do that… and this is the thing. We could keep rejecting possible changes until the cows come home, but ultimately, you want to change the plot. The only question is where.

(That was three pages. En… joy?)

hS

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Thank you! by Alleb on 2015-05-11 12:58:00 UTC Reply

I'm SO thankful you like her method of transport- I was quite nervous about that. Actually, Amy *is* learning Westron. The Professor said in one of his letters that the language of the hobbits was very similar to English, and since I don't have any form of grammar I'm assuming it's mostly the same (albeit with a few quirks) and an entirely different vocabulary. So far, I've written it as if the names were English simply because we don't have all the names in Westron. I really like Inzil! Thank you so much- the word list I used didn't have that on there. Kali's real name is actually Hamanullas (small white flower), but everyone just calls her Kali. I know it's Merry's name, but since it's just a nickname I thought it might work- but I like Inzil much better. (On a sidenote, when I was first read Lord of the Rings, I had NO idea Merry was a boy until Crickhollow. I thought all along it was "Mary.")
So, up until now my thought was that Amy's memories of the plot were erased when she arrived, but if you don't think that's a good plan it can very easily be tweaked. My idea had been that the only being other than Eru who really knows the future (beyond predictions and visions) is Mandos; and he's meant to be the only one. So it would make some sense that she would loose these memories when she arrived.
Okay.. I left something big out. I really shouldn't have, and I apologize- Amy is mute. I feel that's her most Suish characteristic, and I sort of hesitate to bring it out. She's teaching Inzil sign language, of course. So when she meets Halbarad, she's actually communicating in broken tengwar on a notepad she brought and bad Sindarin that she barely remembers from learning it as a teenager; I said 'know' because she remembers most of it later on, and I didn't know how fractured the language was. I actually thought we had a lot less of Quenya- grammar and vocabulary both -than we did of Sindarin.
Oh, another thought- Amy hasn't read the books for roughly ten years. So she might remember a couple things,or accidentally give false information, or any other host of possibilities. Speaking of possibilities, I had planned for there to be some hints of romance between Boromir and Amy- and in some of these plot ideas, he would live, and it could be given lots of time to mature, which I like. What do you think?
I love the three pages! Thank you so much! Your knowledge is awesome, and I doff my cap to you *bows*. I plan to implement quite a few of these ideas. You've been immensely helpful!

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Interesting, very interesting. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-11 13:59:00 UTC Reply

(Btw, it would help with reading your posts if you double-space your paragraphs. Ta.)

Westron... um... well, the grammar might be the same as English, I guess. But the vocab is wildly different - it bears literally no resemblance to English. So I'm not sure that'd help!

Inzil is, I hope I made clear, an Adunaic name - it would be a very old name in the Third Age. Sort of like calling your kid... um... okay, 'any name out of the Bible', I suppose. ^^ We know that Westron retains the 'z' sound, so it's probably a valid word in Westron. (Nicknaming her Kali - well, why not? Will probably cause confusion when she meets Kalimac the Hobbit.)

I would definitely use 'actual' names if you possibly can - we've got more of them than you might think! The only lands you're spending time in that don't use an elvish language are Bree and Rohan (if you go there). Bree itself might be tricky to name (or just call it 'the village'), or she could simply use the English name in narrative out of habit. The Pony is an actual translation, so it's okay to re-translate to English. And Rohan - well, we actually have Theoden's real name, Tûrac!

(You know, many years ago, I'm pretty sure I thought Merry was a girl. You can imagine my surprise when Bombadil told them all to strip! Not sure where I caught on, actually...)

I think wiping Amy's memory is... mm, dubious. For one, surely Sauron would want her to keep it? For two, knowing the future changes it - so the 'future' Amy knows isn't the one she'll encounter. For three... it removes any justification I can come up with for Elrond to send her along. Every one of the Nine Walkers has a good reason to be there - Amy wouldn't.

I've speculated here about how a girl who knows (partly!) the book could interact with Middle-earth. Feel free to crib anything you like from it. ^^

Mute is an... interesting character trait. Certainly gets round the pronunciation problem! I'm not sure why you'd think it's particularly Suish, though - yes, it's unusual, but unusual doesn't have to be bad. Just make sure you give her both the positives and the negatives, and she'll be fine.

Well, 'fine', at least. Tengwar are, again, moderately obsolete - Frodo recognises them as letters on the Ring, but doesn't even try to translate them even phonetically. Most people (including Gandalf) use the runes of Daeron - and no-one bothers to learn them at this end of time, because they're boring. ;) But sign language... I understand the 'words' are ideagraphic, rather than phonetic in any sense. So yes, Inzil/Kali could probably understand a sign for chicken just as well (or badly) as an English speaker. Um... might make things difficult when she's with the Fellowship, though.

The thing about Quenya and Sindarin is that, um, Tolkien preferred Quenya. He wrote poems in it; he didn't do that much in Sindarin. So we have a lot more Quenya to hand, though I think (may be wrong) the longest single passage is the Sindarin King's Letter. The one people learn is usually Quenya, though that said, there's a few books about Sindarin; maybe she had a copy of David Salo's A Gateway to Sindarin!

Ultimately, the plot is up to you (obviously!). My main piece of advice is to consider the consequences of what you're doing! If Amy breaks her leg in Moria, the Fellowship is slowed down, don't get to Balin's Tomb before the orcs catch them, and have to fight in the open - even when the balrog arrives. If Amy urges them to bypass Lorien, the whole story takes place a month sooner - so they probably don't get ambushed at Rauros. Heck, if Amy's chatting with Boromir while Frodo's off thinking, Boromir wouldn't go after him, and Frodo would come to a decision of his own. You could even start the story right there, with no earlier changes, and fill in her backstory along the way!

(And what would Frodo decide? Very difficult to say. He's avoided making decisions at all previous points, though he has shown a tendency towards self-sacrifice. He might well slip off by himself while the others wait - but with eight members of the Fellowship still behind, and the fact that Frodo wasn't the one who thought of breaking the boats, at least some of them could go after him. Call the chapter 'The Parting of the Fellowship' and send Boromir and Amy off to Minas Tirith - see where that gets you.)

I have no problems with a well-done Boromance (though Acacia probably would have!). Remember that a deadly hike probably isn't the best place for it to get serious, though! Letting the Quest portion be her slow (sloooow) growth in admiration for him, and its development into something more - and working out a reason for him to like her - is probably the best way to go, yes.

I think this version was less than three pages? Noooot sure...

hS

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Got it. by Alleb on 2015-05-11 16:15:00 UTC Reply

In regards to the names, I think I might have her give the Westron name, if she can, but then use the English afterwards. It's what she would be most comfortable with (me too), and my keyboard can't make the punctuation needed for Westron, so it would be very time consuming to have to copy paste practically everything.

You're right, the memory wipe was rather dubious. I'll change it, although that also impacts how she'll meet Halbarad; originally, he came across her on Wethertop after her memory was erased; she was lying in a sort of daze, remembering her life slowly. It shouldn't be too hard to fix though.

I really, really like your piece on Lucy- Amy is similar, but she'll probably remember even less. And you're right, Sauron would want her to keep her knowledge of the future; he and Morgoth picked her partially for her pride, and I can easily see her trying to "fix" things like Gandalf's death, Boromir's sacrifice, and the Breaking of the Fellowship, thinking she's doing exactly what's needed.

Also, I need your advice on another aspect of her muteness; how would Elves react to her? I mean (correct me if I'm wrong) the early Elves differentiated themselves from animals by their ability to speak- calling themselves the Quendi and all. So far, I think pity would be pretty prevalent- language is dear to them, after all. But I think there might be some squeamishness (if Elves get squeamish.)

*yelps and hides from Acacia*

Deadly hike.. That's incredibly accurate, actually. Um, could I use that?

Just as a test scenario, let's say Amy (after proving her Seer status) warns Elrond and Gandalf that the latter will die in Moria, and they can't go over Caradhras. She forgets about Sauraman, and the two Wise ones conclude that the Fellowship must travel through the Gap of Rohan (Gandalf of course knows that Sauraman is a bad egg, but for the purposes of the test scenario let's say they go through the Gap anyway). Because their trajectory is altered, they don't see any crebain, and they try to sneak past Isengard. Plot twist; Merry and Pippin are captured by Orcs. The Fellowship breaks right there, with Gandalf still alive. Without seriously analyzing the situation, I would say that Gandalf takes Aragorn and Legolas with him and attempts to sneak in and rescue the hobbits. The other five can't dither, so they set off for Rohan. What do you think?

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Personally... by Huinesoron on 2015-05-11 20:13:00 UTC Reply

... I tend to forgive missing accents. It's not like people are going to actually be pronouncing things! But I see your point, and if it's narrative voice, that's excusable. Dialogue... eh, I suppose since the whole thing's translated into English anyway, you can probably get away with it. Makes me twitchy though.

As a general rule, anything I've presented as an idea is there for anyone to use; I'm not possessive. Nicking entire chunks of story, yes, that's bad, but ideas are free from me. (As are turns of phrase, so yes, you can have 'deadly hike'. ^^)

Very interesting thoughts about 'Quendi'; you're kind of right. I think you'd get pity, definitely, but with an undercurrent of... something between shock and horror. Not at her, but at the idea that that can happen. Remember, Arda was created out of a song; the most 'holy' thing elves do is sing hymns to Elbereth; they (Legolas) ~~anthropo~~eldathromorphisise things to the extent that he speaks of stones talking to him. Someone without a voice is... yeah, that could hit them hard. (Of course, on the flip side, they will be delighted by sign language; it's a sort of 'even one without a voice can still speak by the skill of her hands' thing. If you go for a lighthearted tone, I can imagine it becoming something of a fad in Imladris - only, of course, the elves will improve it rapidly beyond Amy's understanding!)

The Saruman scenario: well, given that Gandalf's been locked up by Saruman, it's hard to imagine why he'd do that. But suppose he does. The crebain are a misdirection; they knew they were being watched anyway! I think the movieverse suggests they were aiming for the Gap of Rohan until the crows changed their mind, but the book is quite clear about what the plan was.

So, they sneak across Dunland, which is hostile to, um, everyone, but particularly blondes. ^~ They reach the Gap. They can basically be invisible in the open countryside - but they have to cross the Fords of Isen. That's the only choke-point in the entire plan. Heck, after that, they're home free in Rohan! But...

... y'know, if you fiddle the timeline a little (maybe they leave Rivendell later, or they have a lot of trouble in Dunland), you could get them there juuuust before the Battle of the Fords of Isen on February 25th. So they reach the fords, meet Theodred (crown prince of Rohan, still alive!)... and then the 'fighting Uruk-hai' descend.

So you have the fellowship at the BFI. They probably contribute a great deal, especially with Gandalf present. And, yeah, I can see Merry and Pippin getting taken. Gandalf/Aragorn would be keeping an eye on Frodo, and Sam wouldn't leave his side, but the other two might stray into the path of the orcs. And if Saruman's told his leaders to take any halflings (to figure out what Gandalf's up to with them and the Ring)... yes, it works.

But... I don't think Gandalf would go after them. For that matter, I don't think there'd be a stealth mission - you've got a victorious army of Rohan close at hand, and Saruman's armies have just been wiped out!

I think Gandalf, Frodo, and Sam (at least) would head for Edoras - quite possibly on Shadowfax, since they're in his area now. Aragorn and Boromir would team up with Theodred to try and take out Isengard (they both feel loyalty to Rohan as an ally of Gondor). Legolas would go with them for the sake of the hobbits. Gimli... well, it's a coin toss. And Amy... depends whether she cares more about Boromir or Kali, really. She might stick with Boz, on the principle that Gandalf won't be stopping at Minas Tirith (though he'll have to pass pretty close).

As to whether they'd succeed... uh, probably yes. Saruman's just thrown away his army. But the Rohirrim would have to occupy Isengard - they can't get into Orthanc to drag him out - and they need a leader who can resist the Voice of Saruman. That might be Theodred, or it might have to be Aragorn or Legolas. It might even be Boromir - but we know he is susceptible to temptation, so that's only a good choice if you (the writer) want things to go wrong. ^_^

(As ever, these are just ideas. You can take them or leave them as you please - it's not my story!)

hS

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Deadly hike- awesome by Alleb on 2015-05-11 22:53:00 UTC Reply

I'll include Westron names as much as I can, but in the long run I think it'll just be too time consuming.

I had actually thought of something really similar with the "sign language fad" in Imladris. I really like the fast advancement; I knew they'd learn it quickly, but the improvement idea is really cool. I can easily imagine, a few days after teaching them the really basic grammar and a few signs, she's walkng around and she realizes that they've made up their own home signs, their own, more advanced grammar, and they've nuanced the facial expressions to such an extent that she can barely understand what they're saying. Perfect. That'll also be handy during the Quest, as Legolas will be able to translate what Amy is signing. I can see different members of the Fellowship having their own interest in it too- like Aragorn would want to learn some basic signs to use, say, while hunting, so as not to scare the game. I think the hobbits might try it, and Frodo might even pursue if a little, but the rest would probably fall off the bandwagon. The dwarves, of course, have their own hand gestures, if I remember correctly.

Speaking of, how would you handle Gimli's reaction to Amy's going on the quest? I don't want him to come across as that one mysoginistic (I hope I spelled that correctly) character, but he would definitely have some objections.

Which reminds me, what term would everyone use for Amy? Most of the fics I've read use "Lady," but it seems distinctly WRONG to use the same honorific for Lady Galadriel and a random OC. Just.. No. Mistress sounds off, Madame doesn't sound plausible. Miss, maybe? The hobbits might use that one.

Man, your knowledge of Tolkien is seriously impressive. I apologize for my mistake with the crebain; I've seen the movies more recently than I've read the books, so they're a lot closer to mind. The test scenario would be interesting, although you're probably right to assume that Gandalf wouldn't want to go through the Gap, despite what Amy says. Like what you mentioned of Elrond- if Imladris fell but the Ring was destroyed -I wonder if Gandalf might still view it as a victory if he died but the Fellowship got through Moria safely.

Ooh, I just realized- if the Fellowship doesn't go through Moria and then Lorien, both Sam and Frodo will probably die in Mount Doom. If they just went through Moria, they'd pick up Gollum but not Eärendil's light. Thus, Gollum would lead them to Shelob and they probably wouldn't be able to fend her off. If they don't go through Moria Gollum won't be there to lead them through Shelob, so they'll avoid her, but when it comes time to destroy the Ring, who will get it done? IF Frodo can do it on his own, somehow, they'd be fine- but he couldn't do that. Sam would have to do it, or push him in, probably killing himself in the process. Goodness. Things certainly do snowball, don't they?

Oh, also, I had a question about Amy's life after the War. (And if I'm talking too much or bothering you, please tell me- you've been incredibly helpful and I don't want to blather on if you're getting tired of me. You seem like a very important person within the PPC, and I'm quite a newbie.)
My current idea is that she becomes a guard to the newly crowned Queen. Other than that, I had in mind maybe a few mysteries playing out in Minas Tirith, with Amy playing the part of detective. What do you think?

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I think I can say less here. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-12 10:03:00 UTC Reply

You seem to have things well in hand.

Aragorn learning simple signs is probably fair (and Legolas learning them to talk to Amy is a great idea). You're right about the hobbits, too. As for Gimli: yep, they have, though we don't know them and I doubt they share. Which would kind of add to Gimli's discomfort with Amy - she's just going to use this stuff? Like, out in the open?

I think to handle Gimli, you need to let his objections be those of a dwarf, not a misogynistic human. He's not going to go on about how Amy's weak, or how it's indecent for her to fight, or how she should be in the kitchen. He's not going to say she should be 'seen and not heard' - we've never seen any hint that that's true of dwarves.

Actually, he probably won't object, per se. He knows that other races don't do things the same. But it would be like... oh, if you were a Christian who prays over every meal, before every serious discussion, and as a household three times a day. You wouldn't tell off your non-Christian friends for not doing those things while you were staying over - but it would make you feel kind of uncomfortable to have things change like that. Depending on what sort of person you were, you might end up praying more yourself, for comfort of a sort - or praying more loudly so they can all hear it.

I don't see Gimli as the passive-aggressive sort, so I'm thinking he's more likely to just... act 'more dwarvish'. Maybe he could get really into examining rocks as they walked. ^^

So yes: I'd make him kind of twitchy around Amy (and the sign language would only make that worse!), and quick to assume people were making fun of dwarvish customs - but not liable to grunt 'well, you'd expect that of a female' or whatever. (It might make him less likely to befriend Legolas, though...)

Honorifics... hmm.

-Legolas probably wouldn't use one. He doesn't call anyone else by an honorific, and elves in general don't go much in for them. Note that Legolas isn't called, say, 'Prince Legolas' at any point.
-Neither would Gandalf, for much the same reasons.
-Aragorn... hrm. He does call Eowyn 'Lady', I think, but she's nobility... as a better guide, how does he address Ioreth in the Houses of Healing? If he uses something like 'Mistress', then yes, 'Miss' is possible. Or, again, just don't use them.
-Boromir... what does he do with the hobbits? Just call them by name? The same, then. Since he does say 'the halflings' on occasion, I can see him using 'the woman' about her - but equally 'the elf', 'the dwarf', and 'the wizard'.
-Gimli would probably want to use 'daughter of' or 'mother of' (note that the only named female dwarf is known solely as Fili and Kili's mother), but he doesn't know them. ^^ I'd look to how he addresses Merry and Pippin for guidance, here.
-The hobbits... well, Sam would use 'Miss', or even 'Lady' if he thinks she's impressive. ^~ Frodo would probably call her by name. Merry and Pippin... I'm guessing would follow his lead.

(I try my best to be impressive. ^^ No need to apologise for mistakes, though - we all make them!)

Snowballs - yes, definitely. Essentially, any successful quest needs to give Frodo both a guide and a helper: a guide to actually get him into Mordor, and a helper to get him to the Cracks and help him throw the Ring away. Without those two, he wouldn't make it. In the books, that's Gollum and Sam (or Gollum again!); in an AU, it could be anyone. Perhaps Gimli guides them in, then Frodo knocks Merry into the fire and Pippin gets the Ring while he's distraught over it; perhaps Gandalf sneaks them through the mountains, and Boromir fights with Frodo for the Ring, sending them both over. One thing is certain: most scenarios require at least one person to die on Mount Doom.

(The one that doesn't? Sam carries the Ring to the mountain. He's the only person on the Quest who willingly gave the thing up. He could do it. Sam is awesome.)

Assuming the Quest completes at all, Amy as a guard/companion to Arwen makes sense - and solving mysteries could be really fun to read. ^^ Though bear in mind that the snowball effect is still in play; if Boromir lives, he'll become a major player in Gondorian politics - and if Denethor lives, you've got a whole new dynamic, with the established ruler feeling very threatened by the upcoming war-hero king. Yikes. (That could make for some conflict between Amy and Boz - he's very like his father, and if Denethor is moderately anti-Elessar... yup.) But yes, as long as you keep the snowball in mind, it could work well.

('Important person within the PPC'... heh. I prefer to think of myself as important to the PPC, given that I'm the mostly-self-appointed keeper of traditions. But I'm not an important person - just a walking encyclopaedia. ^^ And one who never minds talking LotR, so you've nothing to fear on that score.)

hS

(I didn't say less, did I? Oops.)

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My Amelia!Sue might come in hand by Alleb on 2015-05-12 16:28:00 UTC Reply

:D Yay! I'm glad you think so; I hope I do. I VERY much want this story to be good. I think 'more dwarvish' is perfect— but I really don't want to interfere with the friendship between Legolas and Gimil. In my opinion, it's one of the most beautiful things Tolkien wrote, and I'd like to keep it intact. So.. How about this? My Sue shows up, violently switching everything to movie verse. Amy had a bubble of book verse, but it's not as strong, so she can't turn any one back if Amelia is focused on them. But, as per the usual, the Sue has ignored Gimli. As long as he and Amy are within seeing distance (barring unusually good conditions or very flat ground) he remains his book self. This forces them to band together. Over the course of their adventure within an adventure, he realizes that Amy really needs the sign language to communicate, and that there's no viable alternative. He's still not totally comfortable with it, or with the fact that she's female, but it should open the door back up for friendship with Legolas, I think.

Thanks for the help with the honorifics! I'll look up all the necessary exchanges. Just calling her "Lady Amy" all the time didn't seem right, but I like the idea of Sam being impressed and calling her that. If they go through Lorien he'd probably stop though. I doubt it's possible to look at Lady Galadriel and then go on calling Amy the same thing.

Hmm.. I think I'll just have to firm up the alternate route before I figure out who dies. I wonder.. The movies are messing up my memory. In the book, did the Orcs simply find the Fellowship, or did Pippin accidentally alert them? If it's the latter, and Amy warns them of the balrog, they might be able to go through Moria undetected. That would leave Gandalf alive, most likely preventing Boromir from attacking Frodo, and then more of the Fellowship might head to Mount Doom. They'd still have Gollum, so none of the Fellowship would have to die at the Cracks, although someone might along the way.

I'm glad you like my after-the-War idea; most of these stories just end when Aragorn is crowned king, but I want to go beyond. Yes, I'd thought about that; it'd be very interesting to have Denethor alive, and I think he would be if Boromir lived. I hadn't considered the tension between Amy and Boz, but I like it; life isn't all sunshine and fluffy one-shots, after all! They're bound to butt heads sometime.

I dunno, I've looked at the lore some and you and your agents have done some pretty big stuff. Not to mention helped with various FAQs and guides, which were VERY useful to me, I might add; it really helped assuage some of my nervousness, knowing what to expect and what I might want to start off by saying in the community.

Awesome! I just wanted to make sure, because I've been asking question after question after question, which could get really old after a while. I also have a penchant for talking too much, which can be quite annoying.

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Actual short answer this time. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-13 13:12:00 UTC Reply

Amelia as a way of making Gimli and Amy get on: sounds good to me.

Moria: Pip threw stones down the well in the guardroom and woke Something - the orcs and the balrog. It's quite possible they could've crept through had he not.

The Fellowship would probably part in Lorien, with Aragorn and Boromir going directly to Minas Tirith; the others might well all go with Frodo to Mordor. With Gandalf around, they wouldn't even need Gollum - he knows about Cirith Ungol, so could take them that way, or another if he thought it better. It's unlikely any of them would kill him, though, so Gollum would probably stalk along behind - and might alert the orcs to the Fellowship's presence.

As for me: I've done a lot of stuff because, well, I've been here twelve years now! It'd be hard for me not to have a finger in most pies, frankly.

(Hey, that really WAS a short answer!)

hS

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Re: Actual short answer this time. by Alleb on 2015-05-13 18:22:00 UTC Reply

Great!

Good- I thought it was something like that, but I wanted to be sure. I'll consider all the possibilities first, but that one sounds pretty good to me.

I like that idea. It would be quite interesting to write Denethor as he might have been, if Boromir hadn't died, while also balancing his dislike for Aragorn. His reaction to Amy would be fun too- would he see some sort of connection forming between Amy and Boromir? If he did, what would he think? Fun fun fun fun.

*carefully hides self from Acacia*

It'll also be engaging to contemplate Gandalf, Merry, Pippin, Gimli, Legolas, Sam, AND Frodo in Mordor.

*gasp* YOU DID YOUR WAITING! TWELVE YEARS OF IT!IN THE PPC! Ahem. Sorry. That's really cool, though! You must know all sorts of stories from early on.

It was indeed!

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*pops up* I heard Harry Potter references! by Iximaz on 2015-05-13 18:26:00 UTC Reply

~~I DEMAND CHEETOS!~~

hS was around in the days of GreyLadyBast, so... yeah, a very, very long time.

*shoves Cheetos forward* by Alleb on 2015-05-13 20:54:00 UTC Reply

Cool! I read about her on the wiki. She had a.. Hat?

*snarfs Cheetos* I AM APPEASED. (nm) by Iximaz on 2015-05-13 22:44:00 UTC Reply
And you shall bow down before it! by Huinesoron on 2015-05-13 21:03:00 UTC Reply

Yea, cower in wonder before the Most Holy Hat of the Great Goddess GreyLadyBast! For only by doing so may you avert the fearful power of her smiting claws! Worship the Grey Lady! Read well the tomes of her Law! Sing not the dreaded songs of Meatloaf!

hS, channelling High Priest Dafydd once more

Meep! by Alleb on 2015-05-13 21:14:00 UTC Reply

O_O I'd, uh, rather not make a habit out of bowing to hats.. So.. I'll pass on that..

*handy (nm) by Alleb on 2015-05-12 17:58:00 UTC Reply

Thanks for the mini-Balrog, hi there Sauraman! by Voyd on 2015-05-11 16:49:00 UTC Reply

His name's actually spelled Saruman.

Wait.. by Alleb on 2015-05-12 04:13:00 UTC Reply

Since I mispelled Huinesoron somewhere else on this post or my other one, does that create a mini too?

Yes, actually! by Voyd on 2015-05-12 05:35:00 UTC Reply

You made a mini-Boarder.

Alrighty then by Alleb on 2015-05-12 14:28:00 UTC Reply

So.. does he just look like a mini Huinesoron, or is there an established mini-Boarder, like the mini-balrogs from LotR?

Option A. by Voyd on 2015-05-12 14:59:00 UTC Reply

Mini-Boarders, at least in my mind, look like chibi versions of the Boarder they came from.

Like, here's Vitd, the mini-Voyd... who looks a hell of a lot like my little brother, actually...

(my brother looks very similar to me, although he has Asian features from my stepdad)

Option C. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-12 15:30:00 UTC Reply

Minis of me have always looked like Ewoks. Huinsoren says hi:

(Actually, originally, all mini-Boarders looked like Ewoks... but people couldn't be bothered with that, so yeah.)

hS

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So.. What's Option B? by Alleb on 2015-05-12 15:38:00 UTC Reply

A chibi ewok? And can I keep Hunisoron?

I thought it was... by Huinesoron on 2015-05-12 15:47:00 UTC Reply

... 'an established mini-Boarder'.

And, um, I don't think he'd like that. Also I don't think Hunesoron and Hinesoron, the original mini-Boarders, would appreciate it.

(Also, I think the currently-prevalent practice of claiming miniature copies of other Boarders for yourself is... kinda creepy? But that seems to be just me, these days. Either way, no, please don't keep him; let him roam freeeeeee! ^_^)

hS

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*hurriedly lets go* by Alleb on 2015-05-12 16:34:00 UTC Reply

Sorry! He's free now- I didn't know, but I see what you mean.. Kind of creepy. I apologize. He's off doing.. Whatever mini-Boarders do, I guess. Here's a random question- have you ever had someone intentionally create mini-Boarders?

I did once, to make a point. by Voyd on 2015-05-12 19:01:00 UTC Reply

Someone had put *chases after mini with an axe* in their subject line, which understandably creeped the rest of us out.

To help him understand what our problem was, I created a mini of him. "Notice how he looks like a chibi version of you? You now see our problem with killing mini-Boarders."

How'd I do in the "respectfully not naming names" department?

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What if.. by Alleb on 2015-05-13 00:32:00 UTC Reply

someone misspelled my name? Would it still make a mini-Boarder, or am I not actually a Boarder yet, since I joined so recently?

You're a Boarder once you post. :) (nm) by Iximaz on 2015-05-13 01:03:00 UTC Reply

Cool; thanks! (nm) by Alleb on 2015-05-13 01:50:00 UTC Reply

No problem! by Iximaz on 2015-05-13 02:46:00 UTC Reply

And hey, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to poke someone (provided you do a search on the Wiki first). Just about everyone is more than willing and able to help. :)

You know.. by Alleb on 2015-05-13 12:52:00 UTC Reply

I actually do have a question. So, as I mentioned before, I have a thing with language. I'd really like to just dive in and read all the missions I can, but it's hard to tell on most if there will be any cursing or not (at least as far as my experience has gone, that is the case). Do you have any suggestions? I'd like to read in the LotR continua, and HP is good too. For a bit of a threshold, I started reading the Original Series a while back, and stopped because I felt that it cursed too much. I've recently picked it back up again, although it's still a *little* heavy for my tastes.

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[Raises hand] Me. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-13 13:06:00 UTC Reply

You'll find very little cursing in any of my missions. Well, technically that's not true - Agent Huinesoron will throw out Quenya cursing, and Selene is prone to insulting people in eighteenth-century slang. But I doubt you'll have a problem with those. ^_~

No other particular suggestions, other than: try looking mostly at older stuff. The average age of Boarders has crept up over time, and so has the amount of swearing they do. Most of the spinoffs hosted on Neshomeh's Lost Tales are old(ish); you can also look at the archive of Miss Cam's site (http://web.archive.org/web/20100325235537/http://www.misssandman.com/PPC/archives.html), though a fair number of those links are dead.

Oh, and you're probably best to stay away from Bad Slash; several of our more prolific DBS writers cursed a lot.

hS

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Awesome; thanks! by Alleb on 2015-05-13 13:11:00 UTC Reply

Yep, no problem with either!

Got it; thanks for the tip! I can't wait to begin!

Duly noted.

You'll want to stay away from my stuff, then. by Iximaz on 2015-05-13 15:31:00 UTC Reply

Especially the Rose Potter missions. Rina dropped the F-bomb quite a bit in that one, among other words. ^^;

Duly noted; thanks for the heads up! (nm) by Alleb on 2015-05-13 18:23:00 UTC Reply

You guys are so cool. by Alleb on 2015-05-13 12:29:00 UTC Reply

Not all corners of the internet are so welcoming- the PPC really is something special.

It really is. by Iximaz on 2015-05-13 17:26:00 UTC Reply

I keep saying it, and whoever's heard me say so before is probably sick of hearing it over and over, but I've never met a nicer, friendlier bunch of people.

By the way... Big Sibling/Little Sibling houses. Would you maybe be interested?

I'd have to think about it a bit by Alleb on 2015-05-13 20:58:00 UTC Reply

I like the idea of them, it's quite cool. I think I'm a bit of an odd newbie though, as I've read quite a bit on the wiki and all. I'll give it a bit of thought, and thanks for asking!

Not odd in the slightest. by Iximaz on 2015-05-13 22:42:00 UTC Reply

I was exactly the same when I showed up. ;) We like it when newbies read the Wiki instead of asking questions that can be easily answered by a quick search. It happens distressingly often.

And no problem, no problem. I'm trying to get the Sib Houses off the ground, but it never seems to quite catch on... *pouts* One of these days!

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I don't know why; they're awesome! by Alleb on 2015-05-13 23:34:00 UTC Reply

I just think it's really great what you all have made the PPC. Originally, when I first found it, I was rather unsure of it for one reason- I thought you were all united by the hate of Mary Sues. Since then, I've come to realize it's practically the opposite. You're united by the love of good writing, and I think that makes all the difference. The Sib Houses are a prime example. It's a really cool system for helping the newbies feel at home; very awesome!

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O_O Meep. by Alleb on 2015-05-12 19:16:00 UTC Reply

Yeah that's really creepy.. I promise not to chase anything with axes 'n such. I didn't really look into the mini-Boarders on the wiki, so I was sort of under the impression that when you created a mini— any mini —it was yours automatically. Glad I know how it works now! Be free, Hunisoron!

I didn't know they COULD be claimed by other Boarders. (nm) by Voyd on 2015-05-12 16:00:00 UTC Reply

Oh, good, it must be dying down then. by Huinesoron on 2015-05-12 16:10:00 UTC Reply

There was a spell there when every mini-Boarder was met with 'Mini! [Grabs mini] I shall keep it and cuddle it forever!'. Which... yeah, as I said.

(Hilariously, not too long ago I ran across a comment by GreyLadyBast from back in '04 about how annoyed she was by 'the whole mini-Boarder thing'. I think someone assured her it was just a fad that would soon go away... yeah, not so much!)

hS

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Wait, people are claiming others' mini-Boarders? by Iximaz on 2015-05-12 15:58:00 UTC Reply

I must have missed that. *looks anxiously at her nine* Don't you lot go anywhere, you hear me?

Dang it. by Alleb on 2015-05-11 17:30:00 UTC Reply

Gosh darn it.. Usually my spell checker gets those. *grumbles* This is not one of the things I would have picked to happen on my first PPC post..

As Scapegrace said, not me. by Iximaz on 2015-05-10 21:13:00 UTC Reply

I told you, I know hardly anything about Lord of the Rings. Your guys' posts are "words words the words words and words words Elrond words words I don't know any of this" to me. ^^;

Oops! by Alleb on 2015-05-10 21:57:00 UTC Reply

Sorry, I must have accidentally looked at the wrong author name.

Newbie? Newbie! *glomp* *poke* by Iximaz on 2015-05-10 19:10:00 UTC Reply

Heylo, and welcome aBoard! As your newbie gift, take this shrieking hummingbird! If the urple bow around its neck becomes too much, feel free to remove it.

To answer your question, our resident Tolkien expert, Huinesoron, wrote this piece to explore possible answers to the infamous Tenth Walker debate.

Thanks! by Alleb on 2015-05-10 19:50:00 UTC Reply

*ties urple bow around wrist* I have read Huniesoron's awesome piece- it inspired me quite a bit. My original idea was basically one of those copy-paste plot stories- Amy was actually sent to Arda to *keep* the plot from derailing. I realized what a waste that was after reading Tenth Walkers, for which I am immeasurably grateful. I do like the idea of his unbroken Fellowship, but I don't think Amy could (or would) keep the Walkers together; her ultimate goal is to get to Minas Tirith. Her friend (and basically adopted daughter) Kali is sick, and the only known cure is an herb that grows in Harad. Minas Tirith keeps a small store of it, which Amy knows thanks to Aragorn. So the real question would be, how would the Fellowship break?

Well... by Scapegrace on 2015-05-10 19:57:00 UTC Reply

You might only need to have her side with Boromir. After all, they both think the party needs to go to Gondor, even if her own reasons are more selfish (though surely Dol Amroth would be more likely to have a store of the herb than Minas Tirith?).

Scapegrace: by Alleb on 2015-05-10 21:00:00 UTC Reply

I'm not as good as I could be with the outer edges of the map; where is Dol Amroth? I know the name, isn't Imrahil the Lord of Dol Amroth? And Legolas says the Men from there must have Elvish blood in them?

*gnaws lip* by Iximaz on 2015-05-10 19:52:00 UTC Reply

I'm really not the best person to ask about LotR stuff. I've only read the books a few times and don't know the canon as well as I'd like. You want someone else for that.

Buuut, if you have any Harry Potter questions, I'm your gal! ;)

Well, actually... by Alleb on 2015-05-10 20:01:00 UTC Reply

I do have a question that sort of ties into that. So, in my story, I have an idea that I plan to implement- a meddling Mary Sue. Her name is Amelia, and she's basically a completely Sueified version of Amy. She pops in every so often and creates a bubble of movie verse around her, bigger and more powerful than Amy's book verse influence. After the events of the War of the Ring, Amelia still appears once in a while, but instead of simply trying to get almost every male character to fall at her feet, she whisks Amy off to other universes, such as Harry Potter, PotC, etc. Amelia is also an inveterate shipper, so she tries to set Amy up with different characters, a la fangirl writers pairing off their OC and favorite character. What do you think?

I think... by Iximaz on 2015-05-10 20:08:00 UTC Reply

That it sounds a lot like "Ensign Sue Must Die!". Great webcomic, highly recommend it.

Seconding that recommendation! Seriously, check it out. (nm) by Darkotas on 2015-05-10 20:16:00 UTC Reply

Hmm.. by Alleb on 2015-05-10 20:57:00 UTC Reply

I started reading it a while back, but I stopped- It either had language or content issues. That reminds me, do you happen to know the plot of "Don't Panic!"? I'd like to read it, but again, language. I would like to know why it's on the Legendary Goodfic list.

What's the problem with language? by Voyd on 2015-05-11 15:17:00 UTC Reply

I admit that I used to have a problem with profanity, but that's because I was hyper-sheltered from fourth to eighth grade (read: homeschooled with nobody my own age around).

I attended a high school where literally every student cursed like a sailor, so I kinda had to build up a tolerance quickly. I'm not averse to mild profanity myself... but ONLY if my family isn't around (I've got two siblings, both more than ten years younger than I am).

Well, you see.. by Alleb on 2015-05-11 16:24:00 UTC Reply

I'm a Christian, and the Bible says to "let nothing unclean come out of your mouth." When I read too much profanity, it really sticks in my mind, and I know it's very likely that if I let too much in it'll only be a matter of time before some of it slips out. And I don't want that. Plus, I just don't like reading it.

If I may... by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 17:16:00 UTC Reply

And I beg your forgiveness in advance, due to the nature of this topic, so I will try to be as courteous as possible.

Do you also happen to wear shirts of a cotton/polyester blend? Because Deuteronomy 22:11 warns against that as well. If you have a more personal problem against swearing, then fine, but it bothers me when people point to only certain parts of the Bible to justify things while ignoring it where it suits them.

You may by Alleb on 2015-05-11 17:38:00 UTC Reply

On a side note, I find it interesting how many people know that verse. No point to that, just wanted to note it.

Anyway, yes, I do. Technically, it was an order to the Israelites in particular, to set them aside. It may apply to Gentile believers, but if I remember correctly it doesn't really say. Maybe I shouldn't wear things of blended material. I don't really know. I'm told to give reason for the light inside me, so maybe I should dress differently, so more people ask. And your complaint is entirely valid; the Bible is not a bag of trail mix. You were completely courteous, and feel free to ask me such questions anytime.

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Thanks for understanding. by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 17:44:00 UTC Reply

Since religion is a bit of a touchy subject, I don't like discussing it very much. ^^;

Anyway, that is all. Thanks for not getting mad. :) *offers cookies*

No problem! by Alleb on 2015-05-11 17:53:00 UTC Reply

*Alleb takes the cookie and gobbles it, as Alleb is hungry*

Feel free to ask me any questions you want; if I get mad then I am doing something very, very wrong. After all, if no one questions what I believe, or what I say I'm believing, then I don't know how to answer their inquiries, which is never good. If I get mad, feel free to to whack me over the head. 'Tis what I deserve.

Chapeau, sir! by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 18:05:00 UTC Reply

(Or madam - you didn't mention your preferred pronoun?)
Anyway, to add some context to that verse - sh'atnez, or the prohibition on wearing clothes from two or more kinds of fabric, is not one of the Seven Precepts of the Sons of Noah which also apply to gentiles - it's a strictly Israelite thing. (Incidentally, this precept has some interesting derivatives, such as a prohibition on mixed dishes, but that's outside the scope of this discussion.)
Anyway, since you're a Christian, this precept doesn't apply to you. However, logic dictates that if you believe everything written in the Bible is the word of God and should be followed to the letter, then you shan't wear mixed fabrics anyway.
...
That sounded much more coherent in my head.
Anyway, I salute you - you've kept a chill, even amiable head where many people would have blown their top off.

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Thank you! by Alleb on 2015-05-11 18:31:00 UTC Reply

With my personal pronoun.. Hrm.. I'm really sensitive about putting any information about myself on the Internet. And I know I am being super paranoid for not even sharing something so basic, but for now you can call me whatever.

Wow, I'm very impressed! I didn't know the technical names at all, I shall file that away, as it's very useful. Yeah, I've always been a bit murky on the subject. I know the clothing law wasn't specifically lifted, like the dietary ones, but it doesn't seem like general church principle to follow it. I'll have to ask around.

You were quite coherent! *returns salute* I don't think getting offended really helps anything; I much prefer a calm discussion. It's hard enough to witness over the Internet without caps locking everything. XD

The same invitation extends to you; feel free to ask my anything. It's my genuine pleasure to answer as best I can!

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Aha. by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 18:40:00 UTC Reply

Well, I'll default to male pronouns because that's how my mother tongue rolls. (It's Hebrew, BTW.)

I dunno what the guys in your denomination would say, but I do know that most Jews would say that particular precept does not apply to you because you're a gentile.

Oh, so I managed to prod my mind enough, hah. As to questions... you said witness, I assume you're a Jehova's Witness?

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No, just Christian by Alleb on 2015-05-11 18:52:00 UTC Reply

But your thinking that is quite natural. I don't think mainstream Christianity puts enough emphasis on witnessing to those around you, but I try to. I don't really identify with a single denomination yet; for now, I believe the Bible, and unless it's the Church of Me there's no denomination I'll totally agree with on everything. If I somehow wound up in a room with a Baptist and a Nazarene, there's nothing that would stop me from worshipping with them, so.. Yeah. I don't really agree with what the Jehovah's Witnesses believe, as far as I know of it.

That's really interesting, that most Jews would say it wouldn't apply to me. Very useful to know; thank you!

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Props to you, dude. by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 18:55:00 UTC Reply

Thinking for yourself is really important.
Full disclosure: I'm an agnostic atheist with some anti-theistic leanings.
That out of the way: I'd never dream to tell people what to believe. I'd just like them to think for themselves, and since you're doing that, keep up the good work!

Thank you by Alleb on 2015-05-11 19:01:00 UTC Reply

Thinking for yourself is important. I look around and most people are just doing what everyone else does; that's one of the cool things about the PPC, it's different. I mean, if you walked up to most people and told them about this secret organization run by talking flowers from another planet that goes into bad fanfiction and cleans it up, they'd walk fast and keep their eyes down. Here? Everyone knows that, come on! Beautiful community.

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Yeah, this place is amazing, aright. by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 19:04:00 UTC Reply

Some of the friendliest, nicest people I've had the pleasure to meet. Not to mention people I can actually talk with about, say, Harry Potter and go into the minutae without getting weird looks.

Exactly! by Alleb on 2015-05-11 19:09:00 UTC Reply

It's so hard to find other LotR nerds, particularly of the book variety. Here, they abound! On a different note, I've been thinking of things in a spatial sense on my two different posts; oh, the one at the bottom with this particular thread of conversation just said something. Now someone at the top said something. I haven't ignored the usernames, but long story short, I just now realized we're having two separate conversations XD

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Yap. by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 19:13:00 UTC Reply

I was wondering whether you caught up with that. It happens to me sometimes - I find it rude to bring what I find obvious up, lest I sound haughty.
Oh, if you want LotR experts, look no further than Huinesoron Eagleshadow. I think he was already mentioned?

Yep! by Alleb on 2015-05-11 19:19:00 UTC Reply

That's a good strategy; I never know if I should or shouldn't. Yes, Huinesoron is helping me out with my story, a bit further up the post! Incredibly kind of him; his excellent knowledge of Tolkien is awesome. Do you happen to know what his name means? I assume it is Elvish (a department in which I am extremely lacking) but I don't even know that.

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As I said... by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 19:21:00 UTC Reply

Soron = Eagle. Huine = Shadow. Therefore, either "Eagle-Shadow" or "Shadow-Eagle", my Quenya grammar isn't the best.

Gondor needs no grammar! by Huinesoron on 2015-05-11 20:16:00 UTC Reply

It's two Quenya words mashed together. ^_^ Since they're both nouns, you'd probably read them in the order they're written ('Shadow-Eagle'), but that 'Shadow' isn't an adjective like you might think. My current preferred 'natural' translation is 'Eagleshade' - ie, 'the shadow caused by one of the Great Eagles flying overhead'.

And then you look up, and you realise it's not a cloud--

--it's wings.

hS

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Awesome! Very appropriate. (nm) by Alleb on 2015-05-11 22:55:00 UTC Reply

Ah! by Alleb on 2015-05-11 19:45:00 UTC Reply

Cool! Thanks.

*perks up* Someone say Harry Potter?! (nm) by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 19:07:00 UTC Reply

That's impressive! (nm) by Alleb on 2015-05-11 19:13:00 UTC Reply
You're pretty easy to summon, aren't you Ixi? by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 19:11:00 UTC Reply

It's not like Daltar where you have to sacrifice a virgin and dance naked while the moon is full. Just mention your favourite book ever and you come.

Now I wonder. How do you summon other boarders? by World-Jumper on 2015-05-11 23:02:00 UTC Reply

Iximaz we already covered, with Harry Potter.

I'm easy, just say Pony and I'm there.

Neshomeh comes when you speak of the wiki.

Huinesoron usually pops in when the Deep Lore of Middle-Earth is being talked about. Or just Middle-Earth.

Anybody else?

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I summon Neshomeh in defense mode! by Voyd on 2015-05-12 15:55:00 UTC Reply

Or something. I haven't seen Yu-Gi-Oh in about ten years.

Anyway, I just expanded the Monster Musume page on the wiki... and wow is it expanded, it's getting pretty huge.

Maybe that's just a testament to how much I love the series.

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*blinks in confusion* by Neshomeh on 2015-05-14 19:44:00 UTC Reply

I saw my name, but you're doing a Yu-Gi-Oh! bit, so you clearly wanted my husband instead. What's going on? Why am I here? Who am I?!

~Neshomeh, having an existential crisis.

P.S. I have a new job with irregular hours, so I may be more difficult to summon going forward. Sorry!

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*Grins maniacally* by Desdendelle on 2015-05-15 00:40:00 UTC Reply

I Release Neshomeh in order to Advance Summon Phobos! Go, attack position!

Well... by Edhelistar on 2015-05-12 04:18:00 UTC Reply

I would probably be summoned by anything related to the DC Universe...
Question. by Darkotas on 2015-05-12 01:02:00 UTC Reply

Has anybody seen the Harry Potter Pony Tea Wiki of Middle Earth? I was thinking of adding a page for Monster Musume.

(Am I doing this right? :P)

PONY! SOMEBODY SAY PONY!? by World-Jumper on 2015-05-12 14:21:00 UTC Reply

Guys season 5, so good, like, man have you been watching it so far, I mean, wow. So good man.
Who me what huh? (nm) by Huinesoron on 2015-05-12 14:11:00 UTC Reply
YouÂ’re totally doing it wrong by Hieronymus Graubart on 2015-05-12 09:17:00 UTC Reply

It’s spelled "Middle-earth".

(You succeeded in summoning HG).
Harry Potter pony where?! by Iximaz on 2015-05-12 02:46:00 UTC Reply

AND WHERE ARE MY CHEETOS, PUNY MORTAL?
*zzzzooooom* by Voyd on 2015-05-12 01:20:00 UTC Reply

Suu is totally the best girl amirite?

Kimihito! Marry Suu!

... that sounds disturbingly identical to Mary Sue. Suu could make an argument for being a Canon Suu anyway, considering her extensive powers. Plus the fact that she gains new ones almost every chapter.

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You can summon Des with tea. by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 23:12:00 UTC Reply

Sergio Turbo, mention Homura Akemi.

Neshomeh can also be summoned with tea and mentions of Pern.

Anyone else want to give it a shot? XD

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You mentioned tea? by Desdendelle on 2015-05-12 05:08:00 UTC Reply

I rise!
Would you like a cuppa? The tea is a bit confused - it's not sure whether it's Darjeeling or Assam - but it's very good nonetheless!
How to Summon your Mood-Swinging Eccentric by Voyd on 2015-05-11 23:35:00 UTC Reply

Method 1: Mention any one of my fandoms, especially my obscure ones. Most of the time, I don't have anyone to talk about them with, so if someone actually DOES know about, say, Monster Musume, I'm thrilled.

Method 2: Bring food. Any kind. I have an enormous appetite, a raging sweet tooth, a love of fried foods and an eagerness to try anything once. My favorites are seafood and sweets. The best meal I've ever eaten was a stuffed lobster in Maine. My mouth's watering just at the memory...

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Just about. XD by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 19:21:00 UTC Reply

Though I also demand Cheetos. Pip pip!

Sorry, we're out of that. by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 19:28:00 UTC Reply

We only have crumpets and confused Lapsang Souchong tea.

PUNY MORTALS, I SHALL SMITE THEE! by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 19:30:00 UTC Reply

FEEL THE WRATH OF A CHEETO-LESS LESSER DEMON—

Wait, are those Oreos?

HERESY! by Desdendelle on 2015-05-11 19:45:00 UTC Reply

Oreos?! These are hand-made crumpets!

On the side by Alleb on 2015-05-11 17:59:00 UTC Reply

If I may ask, where did you here the Deuteronomy verse? Also, you were the first person of the PPC to greet me! I just thought that was cool and worth mentioning.

Funny story... by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 18:05:00 UTC Reply

I actually was born and raised Roman Catholic (though I wasn't
really fussed about religion) and attended a Catholic school which was my own personal hell on earth thanks to an entire grade made of bullies. So I already had fairly good knowledge of various Bible verses, but I learned quite a bit when I did a project, erm, two years ago, pointing out how so many people cite the Bible as a reason homosexuality is evil while not adhereing to other things like the 'no clothing of mixed fibers' or 'no touching a woman on her period' or 'being allowed to sell your daughter into slavery'. *shrugs*

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Interesting by Alleb on 2015-05-11 18:19:00 UTC Reply

I'm sorry your school was so bad :( I've never had to deal with bullies, but it's got to be awful. I'm not very good with the Old Testament- not as good as I should be, anyway. Books of law, like Leviticus and such, have always been a bit hard for me. I'd like to say that it's actually impossible to always follow everything the Bible says, simply because we are flawed beings. I can't always be patient, loving, kind, gentle, and without pride; I'm human. I'm sinful. If I may ask, what was the general conclusion of your paper? (I promise I won't be offended, even if I may not agree)

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Yeah, it sucked. by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 18:41:00 UTC Reply

But I finally swapped schools and things mostly got better. Plus now I've got everyone in the PPC— seriously, I have yet to meet a nicer group of people.

It was actually a presentation, but I was mostly just making the point that you shouldn't pick and choose from the Bible, especially in the name of discrimination.

That's good, at least by Alleb on 2015-05-11 18:56:00 UTC Reply

I'm quite new here, of course, but everyone so far has been very nice. Picking and choosing is never good, I agree. The only way to truly understand a verse is to understand its context; and how do you do that if you keep yanking the verse out of place?

Couldn't have put it better, myself. :) (nm) by Iximaz on 2015-05-11 19:00:00 UTC Reply

DonÂ’t Panic (IÂ’ll try to avoid spoilers)! by Hieronymus Graubart on 2015-05-11 09:43:00 UTC Reply

Girl falls into Middle-earth.

She doesn’t immediately realize where she is.

When she meets a Ranger, who isn’t Aragorn, she believes that he is a cosplayer taking the game too seriously.

She doesn’t inexplicably understand Westron.

She cannot avoid the unpleasant aspects of the setting (like, couldn’t these weird cosplayers at least install some modern sanitary equipment when they rebuilt Bree?).

She doesn’t remember more than a few words of Sindarin from reading LotR, and doesn’t think of using them until she eventually realizes that this "cosplay" must be the real thing.

She is taken to Rivendell, and questioned by the main characters, but she doesn’t join the fellowship.

Legolas isn’t speshul; he is just as overwhelmingly beautiful as any other elf.

She doesn’t fall into love with a main character.

And she is very careful with what she tells the canon characters, because she doesn’t want to derail the plot.

In short, it’s legendary because it’s a realistic and hilarious approach to the theme.

It’s also the best fan fiction I’ve ever read, but since I don’t actually read much fan fiction, this doesn’t really tell much.

Oh, and welcome to the Board.

HG

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I see! by Alleb on 2015-05-11 13:02:00 UTC Reply

Thanks! It was very frustrating to see a variation of the story I am trying to write on the Legendary Goodfic list, and yet not be able to read it and find out why it was so good. I'm trying to make sure Amy experiences the unpleasant-ness, outhouses and all. I don't like talking about it much, of course (who would?) but I do at least allude to it at appropriate places. Thanks for the summary!