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Can we just add more about the mission when it happens?

I really don’t want the My Immortal page deleted.

—Ls

I honestly thought spin-off=mission for some reason. The more you know, I guess lol.

I also support redesigning Legendary Badfic pages.

-kA, kinda busy rn, but still somewhat around.

To be fair, the disinterest in completing IAHF2 was because I moved to BBC Sherlock fandom, which was when I really got going on writing PPC missions, so... was it that much of a shame? ;P

Re: chatspeak mental block -- IAHF2 had an April Fool's-esque chapter where the writer of Imogene's story "hacked" IAHF and made everyone speak in bad grammar, and Eledhwen had been in that chapter, hence her returning to HQ with badfic-induced aphasia. But yeah, in-universe it could be some Mirror Multiverse channelling, since the Imogene story is meant to take place in Mirror!IAHF.

I'm glad you like Melody and Hannah! They showed up as Baklava and Meringue in Imogene's story and IAHF2, but now they get to be proper characters with proper names. They'll be showing up again, at least in the StWWX mission!

Fixed the first two errors -- first one's kinda aaaaaugh because I have been writing a lot of my non-PPC fic in present tense (I blame screenplay writing for getting me in the habit). So of course I didn't catch that one. The last one, IIRC "fea" is Quenya, whereas "fae" is Sindarin, so if I had Eledhwen saying fea earlier, that would be the mistake. :P

So, yes, when we're talking about a page for a spin-off, we're talking about a single page that covers every story featuring a particular set of agents.

And on reflection, I do think that's generally a better plan than pages for individual missions, with limited exceptions for big event stories like "Alumia the Woodsprite" and replacing the existing Sue pages, as I said before.

I also support redesigning the Legendary Badfic pages to be more strongly about the missions to them, with the added implication that any Legendary that doesn't yet have a mission (even a partial one) would not have a page. I don't know if there are too many like that, but I suspect there are a few.

~Neshomeh

But if I make my own version, it will definitely be clean. And it will have stuff from my favorite spinoffs.

—Ls

Yeah, just a month or so before I arrived. I’ll see what I can do with that. Good idea, by the way.

—Ls

Simply put—either get a TVTropes account and respond, or just accept that not everyone likes us and move on. Sure, what they may have said is inaccurate. But I noticed that there were a couple of more knowledgable reviewers who left kind reviews.

And as for the comments on the jargon and Lorson being a Stu; I just thought they were funny, in a Hypocritical Humor sort of way. It’s silly to say that “if you need a wiki to explain jargon, you’re doing it wrong”. Especially on TVTropes. Lorson’s writer Iximaz, found us through TVTropes. (According to her wiki page.)

And the quote on Sue Hunters continues: “Some works in this genre, inc. the Trope Codifier [us], have recognized this. In spite of this, entertaining Sue Hunters, or ones that target hated fanfics, can gain fans who like the Fix Fic aspect of these stories. Badly-written ones, however, aren't any better than your typical God-Mode Sue Revenge Fic story and may even become targets of Mary Sue Hunter stories themselves.”

Basically, they’re saying that Sue Hunters can become Sues, not that they automatically are.

And while these guys may be totally misinformed, they still have a right to say what they want. Even/ with/ a/ bunch/ of/ weird/ backslashes/.

Besides, if we could force everyone to like us, we’d be the Sues.

Tl;dr: free speech means they have a right to be wrong. Either respond calmly, or just ignore them.

—Linstar

The one concern is probably repeat cards, though honestly if you structured a Cards Against Headquarters deck like Apples to Apples Flowers to Flowers, someone might play it!

And as for no takers -- people could be busy and/or not willing to browse the wiki to find a response to an adjective. Which is why having a deck on CrCast could get you more takers.

I guess you might not have been here yet when I proposed arranging Missions in This Continuum sections by when the missions are set in HST. Nobody objected, and I very much want to, because the way it is now creates redundancies and doesn't seem to be especially helpful to anyone.

There's a bottleneck, though: identifying when all the stories are set in HST. I've done it for Harry Potter, and once I'm done going down the list to spot minor characters and minis that appear in each one (another thing I'm doing), I will do the reordering, but it's gonna take time.

I plan to do The Lord of the Rings next, seeing as it's the other biggest list. But, again, it's gonna take time.

If anyone wants to help, feel free to pick a continuum and start adding dates in HST, just like I've done on the HP page. {= )

~Neshomeh

That's why the agents have to stay and witness what the fic does to the canon, and collect charges to justify whatever they do to restore "the canon". It differentiates the PPC from someone just writing their own OC into a story to kill the existing OC because it makes the writer of the mission have to stop and analyse the fic itself.

Granted, this wasn't always clear in early spin-offs -- or first missions, really. I don't like my first mission (or, honestly, a lot of my older missions) either because I didn't deconstruct the fic and really point out why the agents are going in to "set things right". That's because I was an inexperienced writer, just like the Suefic writers. We all improve with time and experience. The ability to write a good mission goes hand in hand with being able to tell a good story in general.

So I think the tropers do touch on something true -- that PPC writers can be just as inexperienced as the authors whose works they're missioning, and that historically, not every PPC spinoff is objectively "better" than the fic it sporks. But also, I think the PPC pages on TVTropes are a bit of a time capsule into 2000s-early 2010s PPC, and that's not exactly the most accurate snapshot of this community anymore.

TL;DR, if you cringe at your old missions, that's fine. It means you're improving as a writer. Keep it up.

I don’t think saying “Tropers don’t understand writing” is fair or even accurate. The site’s central premise is the dissection of literature in a humorous way. You’re insulting any PPCers who are also Tropers by saying that.

—Ls, who found the PPC through TVTropes.

The big problem with this sort of character and this sort of fanfic is He Who Fights Monsters. The most well known kinds of Mary Sues are the ones who warp the reality of their 'verses to the author's own liking. As Mary Sue Hunters exist solely to kill perceived Mary Sues and thus change the world of that "verse" to the author's liking, they are by definition a type of Sue. Also, not all authors can reliably tell if an Original Character is a Mary Sue, but Hunters are almost always presumed to be able to tell — they don't generally say "My God, What Have I Done?" So statistically, they are slightly more likely to be a Mary Sue than an OC without an agenda.

(Source)

This probably explains why one thinks Lorson as a Mary Sue. According to the page for Mary Sue Hunters itself, all of our agents are Sue and Stus, more than likely.

Which doesn't make sense to me but okay.

In my opinion, I would just ignore their opinions on the topic. I don't think they're gonna change their opinions if their literal page on Mary Sue Hunters notes that, by killing Mary Sues, our agents are Sues. (This feels a lot like John hunting zombies and demons and them being told "John, you are the demons" and then becoming a zombie to me, tbh.) But, I can understand why you feel upset. I intially felt upset myself upon learning this. It made me have second thoughts and, to be completely honest, it was, for the longest time, why I hated my first mission. It was just as poorly written as the badfic, in my eyes, so I wasn't any better than the fics I was sporking. I hope I've gotten better (and I think I have?), but sometimes it does linger there.

TL;DR: Their page on Sue hunters effectively calls all hunters Sue and Stus, and I don't think their opinions are worth thinking too hard on, but I understand feeling hurt because I felt hurt when I read them, too.

-kA

Brief mission summaries. Yeah, that’d be good.

Well, some existing authors might not be able to make their own spin-off pages (and I personally don't see the point of documenting every spin-off that even added a minor thing to the PPC canon, but it probably is personal), or it'll be a Task for them to do so. Like me. I have to set my browser (which I plan on chaning, so I might not even be able to do that anymore) into "desktop site," make the page, hope the network decides to not nope out at that very moment, then hop back into the mobile version of the site and edit the page. Some of the changes apparently don't even stick.

So, there's me, at least, but I have such a small selection of spin-offs that could be important ("Mission 2: Mermaids?", in which O'Ryan describes a cabin more thoroughly into existence, Missions 1 and 2 for David Null, as the former introduces a canon and the latter Sporka is briefly mentioned, and technically Mission 1 for O'Ryan and Kittyauthor, as it introduces a new canon and mini). Or, maybe, aside from very important spin-offs (which would get their own detailed pages), we could "expand" (in a sense) the mission logs for each pair. As in, make a page for pairs of agents and lost their spin-offs, somewhat brief (but less brief than, say, the mission logs or the one-liners on the front page) summaries, and new elements (if any) introduced.

For example, let's look at David Null's first mission:

What happens is that David Null is rudely woken up by Paye and has to have the PPC explained to them. The console BEEPS with a new mission in the Miitopia canon, so the agents get ready and leave. The Stu is an overly generic character who is turned into an uncanonical "Great Mage" by the "gardian spirit," which summons the first ever Mini Terror Fiend. David freaks out, but Paye discovers the Terror Fiend is just a mini. David, Paye, and this new mini follow the Stu through the recruitment of very generic characters and, eventually, into the inn, where gardian steals David's glasses and taunts him. Paye and David have a discussion... etc.

I think I made the point clear? I hope? Something like that? Maybe more brief? But all the summaries for spin-offs listed on a pair's Spin-Off page.

I still can't help a ton because my internet apparently really sucks at times and mobile editing sucks, but I can try. I can redirect people to links to my spin-offs and what I think are the most important aspects added to the PPC.

Does that make any sense?

-kA

Speaking as someone who literally has a postgraduate degree in This Exact Thing, the average Troper does not understand writing. They understand... fan wikis. They understand plot points and moments. They understand that lines and dialogues and themes exist, sure, but have not the slightest clue how any of it is supposed to actually work. They engage with media in the manner of someone ticking off a checklist. They only express interest in whether or not a certain trope or genre convention or whathaveyou is present, and never stop to wonder why.

I'm not sure why anyone cares what they think, but then, I'm biased like that. =]

So you know how we have a page on TV Tropes? Somewhere a year or two ago I took a quick look at the 'review' page just to see what was up with it, and found this.

Here's the link.

So I figured I'd bring it up here. Normally I wouldn't be, like, genuinely upset-feeling over something like this, but there's just a lot, to be honest. The main review's really unprofessional for someone who's supposedly reviewing, and the replies to said review are just people jumping on the angry bandwagon to talk about things they don't like about the PPC as well and it really overwhelmed me at first with the sheer vitriol of it.

It probably doesn't help that a lot of what they say are either signs of a complete lack of research (an example one Troper uses for an Agent 'indistinguishable from a Mary Sue' is Lorson, of all people, apparently for being both competent and non-human) or more lack of research (not a single person seems to realize the PPC still's, like, semi-active and in general has evolved quite a bit past what they're criticizing half the time) to flat-out hypocritical. (One fellow basically says, 'if you have a wiki to explain unclear terms, then that implies they're incomprehensible to begin with and it's thus bad writing.' On TV Tropes.)

But despite all of this, somehow it's managed to stick around in my headspace for a long while, and I'm starting to wonder why. I'm just feeling confused and whatnot about this and I'm having a hard time collecting my thoughts, so... what are your thoughts on this?

-OrangeFox, tired and clouded

(Sorry I took so long to read this; my computer is dead and I've been quite busy!)

Oh, my gosh! I'm sorry you had lost interest in completing "Bled Times," but I'm glad you came back to wrap it up. This has been an immensely enjoyable story, both for Christianne and Eledhwen's relationship, and for the multiversal war drama. I love me complex plot that crosses the PPC over with an OFU and another multiverse, while involving time travel and underground resistance! E+C were very cute, watching them slowly get closer to each other over time, although that also made the fight at the end of part three hurt all the more. The repetitiveness of all the solo missions Christianne went through really got across the monotony of her life while Eledhwen was absent. (Excellent and funny usage for your older fics, too!)

The mental block in chat speak form was really clever (and you'd better believe I caught those Cascada lyrics!), and it's interesting that the chat dialogue seemed to be shipping E+C? Was it pulling from Eledhwen's subconscious, or channeling her mirror self's feelings, since m!E was apparently already in love with m!C? Either way, seeing their mirror counterparts was cool and unexpected at the end there, though I feel like I should have seen it coming, especially after the doppelgangers at Mr. Allen's place. (For some reason I assumed they were random Suvians in disguise? Feels pretty dumb in hindsight!) Oh, and Melody and Hannah seem pretty cool too. They have very strong personalities, for how little page time they have; it really makes them feel like whole people who have been active in the background all along!

Some maybe errors?
"Eledhwen sighed, before finally moving aside a box to reveal something that looks suspiciously like dried blood."
"Looked" to match the tense?

"'You keep moving back and forth between two Word Worlds in two multiverses, and they might stop becoming two separate things altogether.'"
I think either "become" or "stop being" are more what you're trying to say here?

"'I felt as though my fae was wandering through the dark, beset in dreams and in waking by Lilith’s cruelty.'"
I don't speak Sindarin, but Eledhwen used the word "fea" in an earlier chapter, and I think that's what got autocorrected here?

—doctorlit very much enjoyed!

Since no one else is interested in Flowers to Flowers, could you tell me how to make a personal Cards against Headquarters deck?

—Ls, a little sad no one else has replied.

*Ah, that would explain it. I’ll probably at least make stubs for both of them.

*I think I get what you mean, but I still think it’s arbitrary and unnecessary.

*I think some of the badges are still generic—though I admittedly haven’t edited and earned as many badges as I could have.

—Ls

But “we have to take a special note if an agent has five missions in this continuum” feels rather...arbitrary. I don’t think it’s something that needs to be noted; EileenAlphabet could’ve just seen “those two have a lot of Sherlock missions”. I still think it’s arbitrary and unnecessary.

—Ls

The best way to eat an elephant is one bite at a time. (Though I’m not sure why anyone would want to eat an elephant.)

And existing authors could make their own spinoff pages—after all, you’ve definitely read what you’ve written.

—Ls

Eledhwen and Christianne were basically the only ones specialising in BBC Sherlock in around 2012~2014, and EileenAlphabet had a Sherlock/Twilight crossover, so naturally our agent teams worked together on that one.

Honestly, I barely remember writing that mission, haha.

• Because nobody's made them. Bear in mind a lot of "inactive authors" were active at the time their pages were made; the Wiki has been around for a decade or more. If you decide to work on this, Jay was also known as Otik, HarpWire, and Wunderlust; Acacia has no official PPC aliases (just a slip for what might be her real name in one mission).

• I think the theory is that if you want to do a mission into you don't know, you could look at the continuum page and find an agent whose author you could ask to cowrite. I dunno, I've never used it.

• I think I set most of the badges up; is there a problem with them? The system isn't, or wasn't, very versatile; I think it was limited just to "X edits in Y category" at the time I did them. [Checks] In fact they've even removed the option to add badges; all we can do is change the pictures and names of what's already there, and disable/enable the Agents and Flowers tracks. So what was it you were looking to change?

hS

I think Nesh has gotten started porting the cards to CrCast, since that platform has the ability to import from Cardcast. I'll probably be moving the cards to All Bad Cards, another CAH mirror site. We're planning to edit the Cards anyway to take out outdated jokes or agents who are now out of continuity, so hopefully it'll make for a nicer game :P

Especially in terms of "things added to continuity" that the spinoffs provide.

It's been interesting seeing where certain concepts in the PPC come from during the PPC +20 experience; having that sort of thing put on the wiki could make it easier to find precedent for certain ideas.

The only issue would be that people would have to read all existing spinoffs to see what each one's added to continuity, and that's a herculean task at best.