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I've always thought that the summary you give to your story is rather like the description on a menu in a resturant.
What sounds better Fish and Chips, or Line caught Cod in Beer batter, served with thick overn cooked chips?

Personally I'd prefer the sound of the second one, so why oh why do so many authors give their stories summaries like "Lol, I reely suck at summeries, just read it 'k!"

Now to me that is like advertising your story as Reclaimed blobs of white fish, glued together with starch and deep fried, with microwaved bits of reformed potato. Not making me want to read the story at all.

So what in a summary makes you click the back button on your browser? For me, quite apart from any of my personal dislikes it is the presence of the phrases "I suck at summaries" and "plz r&r, no flames" both of which leave me cold.

Apparently, because Jack uses Mibbit or something like it, everyone else who uses it was also banned. I removed the ban, but will place a new one just for Jack.

I want to know who did the banning. You see, it appears that everyone is banned from the Chat at the moment. Neshomeh and I are both getting the message that we are banned, so we would like to know what is going on.

Also, Jack, I don't know if you were banned with everyone else or on the basis of your behavior, but I would still take this as an opportunity to think about it.

I'm pretty sure AUs are where everything is different, but similar characters, and AC are where one plot point was different, and changed everything.

Because over the past month, I've seen you:

-Insult women
-Try to piss July off because you thought it was funny
-Act inappropriately in front of minors
-Insult people who have just left the IRC room
-Break rules when you thought no one was looking

Those are just a few. There was also wanted to write slash between a six year old and a fifteen year old, then said that if you aged them they'd be "Too old". So, there, pick your favorite.

Okay, I really must protest. I have been civil, and while yes I did voice concerns about potential abuses of power this just simply proves my point that certain people with OP who do not like me will use any excuse to be rid of me. July I apologize to you for my behavior and statements directed at you, but I do not see why I was banned.

She picked a fight - specifically by citing misleading ideas and misconstruing facts. I'd consider it a responsibility to address them, lest people see only her side of the story and take it as truth - preferably in a venue as public as possible.

And opinions can be changed. Maybe she only has these opinions because she didn't realize what a Mary Sue is. Maybe she wasn't aware of what the content of most Mary Sue stories are. Actually facing her with these realities could mean she gives significant ground in the argument.

There's no point in just assuming she won't change and just letting her stew in ignorance - that kind of goes against the entire purpose of the PPC, which is educating people about why specific writing styles are bad.

Can do.

That will only lead to tears and confusion.

I don't mind them at the beginning or end, most of the time. I mean, you have to have your disclaimers and all that. The one that I said something about was a a run-on that was made up of about 8-10 possible sentences, and bubbly information about how another story unrelated to the one I was there to read had stalled and yadda yadda it had been deleted. Even with the extraneous information, I wouldn't have mentioned it if had not been for the terrible grammar.

In fact that entire mission, had not a single charge against canon. It was based firstly on terrible grammar, secondly on legally impossible situations, and thirdly crimes against common sense.

And for anyone else looking in on this conversation. The author in question is not a thirteen year old kid. The author profile claimed to be a twenty year old in college.

Not that those who are bashing us will care in the least, but if a fic sounds very young, I leave it alone. I like the Warriors cats books, even though I am not in the target audience. The fanfiction is particularly bad in that section of fanfiction.net. Given the target audience of those books, many of the stories sound like they were written by kids. They probably were. I leave them alone. I haven't seen anyone mocking stories that sound like they were written by children.

I find it interesting that there has been such an emphasis on the PPC being a bunch of adults picking on innocent thirteen year old kids. Are thirteen year old kids the only ones writing fanfiction these days?

I do MSTs. The authors generally don't find out about them.

I was talking about ones at the beginning or end of the chapter, or is that what you were referring to? I actually like reading ones that aren't interrupting the story; they're a little like DVD extras, in my opinion.

...I judged that it was a safe bet. If I'm wrong, I'm the one who both wrote the essay and sent her the link; if she does want to "fight", it'll probably be just against me, and she'll probably keep it on her own journal.

Other Suethors might come to our Board and provoke a flame war, but I think the chances of that happening here are small. The reason is that, at the end of her tirade, Boosette tells anyone who disagrees with her that they are welcome to "shut their mouths" on her journal, because it is her "safe space". She has also screened her journal not only to ban anonymous comments, but to ban comments from anyone who isn't on her "Access List." This leads me to believe that she doesn't feel nearly as confident giving an opinion so vocally when she's on a site devoid of a legion of loyal defenders. And since I gave her a link to the essay on LJ, rather than the Board, the chances of spammage here are much reduced.

I use AU for both scenarios, since I don't think I've ever heard the term "Alternate Continuity" before. I kinda prefer saying "Alternate Universe anyway, but that's just me.

Sorry, didn't see you there for a bit. ^_^; Still, nice to see a familiar face. How goes?

~Neshomeh

*breathes in*

*breathes out*

Right. So. This discussion seems to be approaching a point at which it will no longer be productive for anyone. That means it's time to take a step back and attempt to regain some objectivity.

Let's be clear about a couple of things:

1. Boosette and her friends don't like the way we do things. That's okay--they have that right. Yes, even if they don't precisely understand our point of view.

2. We don't agree with the majority of what she said about us, or how she said it. That's okay, too.

To sum up, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Right? Right.

Now then. I think most of us would be fairly happy to quietly go back to business as usual, without further unpleasantness, but if we want to continue a dialogue with our fellow human beings, we're going to have to cool our heads and come up with an actual line of communication, 'cause what's happening right now doesn't count--it's more akin to shouting at each other from either side of a ravine. We've done the whole "circle the wagons" thing; to switch metaphors, we've also run up the colors and fired a warning shot across the bows. Now it's time for parley, if they'll have it, or surrender if not. Because this isn't war, and we don't want war. We just want to get the facts straight.

However that may be, let's be clear about one more thing for ourselves: we've received a critique, and we of all people ought to respect that. We may not agree with all of it, we may not like the form it's taken, but hey, we can take it, right? And some important issues in our community have come to light because of it. I believe those issues deserve their own thread, up at the top where everyone will see it, so I'm going to start one tomorrow, after I've slept and had some time to compose my thoughts some more. Keep an eye out for it.

In the meantime, don't anybody say anything, here or anywhere else, without thinking it through first, all right? Let's not let this get out of hand.

~Neshomeh, moderating.

Do you go and tell the writer "BOO YOU SUCK, GO TAKE YOUR SUE AND DIAF"? or do you say "Your Mary Sue sucks because she does *blank*"?

I don't think that showing their response will really help anything.

I will say though that if anyone here is here just so they can troll and flame people because they think that's what the PPC does they're totally in the wrong place and don't belong here at all.

I was planning on saying more and there was this long rambling rant that involved me saying I was proud of my little sister for writing fic even if it wasn't the best written ever just because she's writing for the sake of it, but I just found out my innocent but of scathing wit and well-timed eyerolls little sister wrote pseudo-femmeslash (moderately tame but still) so I need to go down some bleepka and try to not think too hard on it.

*wanders off mumbling and wondering why her precious little sister couldn't've been a normal bugger and start with Suefic instead*

It's too late now, as the link has been sent, but there is pleanty of "point" in writing a long response without showing it to her - affirming things for ourselves. Several people around here have been wondering if her argument does indeed mean they are bad people, or behaving badly; as a community, we have every right to go on a long spiel to console each other, but deliberately sending it to someone who is already arguing with us is another matter.

And I doubt opinions can be changed - certainly not in this manner. Even if the rebuttal was perfect, people don't take kindly to 'being wrong', and there is a whole community out there who will stick together. They're not going to roll over and show their bellies because of a well-worded response. I also don't think it's any of our business to try and make someone's opinion change; if she doesn't like us, I'm sorry, but she can't ban us from the Internet and so there's no real harm that can be done. Why provoke a fight?

This whole thing looks like it's headed towards a community flame war. I want no part of it.

But you're right; we need to watch out for that line. "Constant vigilance," as Mad-Eye Moody says.

So, since this is a wide-open public forum, well known organization, and very well known by some of the people with boosette, and because I (and probably other people) told them, they eventually got around to answering this thread/Araeph's response. Bear in mind that the following is a quote from the person who directed me to this 'Board about five years ago, and the person who is responsible for me actually writing like a coherent adult, and not (A/N: LOLZ lyk dis!!!) anymore. It's not some ignorant, just-stepped-into-fanfic kid who's got her feathers ruffled.

"We don't need to do a rebuttal to their argument. We've already won. The vast majority of fandom agrees with us, and is sick of being shamed and harassed for what they write. The PPC can think they're right and correct and the good guys all they like; we really don't care, because we (despite their protestations) aren't bullying people weaker than us, and they are."

This, though, is the community's response. Or as much as we're going to get.

Personally, I dislike much of this thread here, especially the part where people go "Oh, but we don't target canons, so she didn't do the research!" If I had any real interest, I'd go back and find all the times people have labeled a character Canon Sue/Stu. I've had entire debates on whether Tamora Pierce's characters (most of them, not all) fit the bill. No, we don't target canons in missions, but there are plenty of people who have asked to, over the years. I will say that we do target both male and female targets, so I'm not certain about the "anti-feminist!" thing. That's a bit out of line.

But their points about being unnecessarily harsh and cruel struck a chord with me. I got a bit upset when I realized that nobody really seems to bother giving authors concrit anymore, if they want to just eviscerate the story. That bothers me. If our interests are in trying to improve fandom, shouldn't we try to help people improve? I know most of the people on here started out writing utter shit, I sure as hell did, and would we have improved if no one had ever bothered pointing out-- nicely or mockingly-- our flaws, and how to fix them?

More to the point, we can go on and on and on about how Sues really are horrible horrible horrible things, and personally I'm not a fan of OOC or bad syntax, but in the Constitution itself, it says

"17. Mary Sues are generally despised and though most of the Regulars will (probably) treat you with respect if you like them, this Board is not the best place for you.

18. If you hate Lord of the Rings, this Board is definitely NOT the place for you. You’ll find pretty much everyone here in disagreement with you."

Mary Sues are GENERALLY DESPISED. Not The Evil That Stalks Us All In Everything. Just... we don't like them. Okay. But it also says no flaming, and that Regulars should treat their fans with respect (at least, all the other parts of the Constitution lean that way on top of it).

But there's also a rule against flaming, and against abuse, and I have seriously been somewhat freaked out by the number of people around here who seem to quietly applaud trolling and flaming. That's not helpful. Part of my problem with Boosette's rant was that she seemed to lump us, a bunch of people who I've always kind of thought of as fairly easygoing, definitely capable of holding a decent conversation with a badfic author if they made an effort (which has been done in the past, I think), or a debate on Sues, an intelligent debate, in with the people who post reviews like "Your character is a Sue and you should die in a fire for writing her." That... that's not what the PPC is supposed to be about.

It says so in the original series. "I don't like that these stories can make me a common flamer." (Jay, Children of the Earth.)

So yeah. I don't think the PPC is a herd of evil bloodthirsty wolves and bullies, but I think we walk a fine line sometimes, and it's a good idea to keep it in check.