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My brain...GAH!

And I haven't even *seen* the movie yet.

My condolences...*shudders*

The idea I have is setting up a department that deals with bad songfics specifically, with a couple of certifiable CloudCuckooLanders as the department's pioneer Agents.

Question 1. Would this department qualify as a sub-department of the Department of Floaters, since the two agents would be dealing with fics from multiple different universes?

Question 2. If I were to write this, I fear I will be a hypocrite. I myself have written a songfic on FFN, seen here in the Redwall section:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/5227553/1/Next_Door

The songfic in question was primarily made as a gift for another writer, with whom I am writing an AU Mariel/Dandin fic. I knew it was plotless, and that, walking in, nobody would really know what it was about unless they read the fic my partner and I were working on, so I tried to direct them to read the other fic first. That fic can be found here:

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4744772/1/Return

Both works involve Nona, who is a blatant self-insert of mine, though not a ridiculously overpowered one who makes everyone worship her. My partner had liked her, because she was a much different personality than Mariel, and yet she had a crush on Mariel's boyfriend-ish figure. He asked for my help in writing a piece about a love triangle between the three; I agreed, and have since been fervently trying to fight off accusations of her being a Sue.

The songfic, heh, I admit it, is not my best work. It involves two otherwise perfectly sane characters acting like a couple of lovesick teenagers, and the writing is a bit disjointed. I tried to lampshade it a bit with some smart-alecky comments from some older, wiser females, but the fact remains that it is indeed rather corny. However, it's not as bad as most songfics out there...though I do say so myself.

Would I be a horrible hypocrite to PPC bad songfics when I have this on my record?

Theoretically there could be such a thing as a good songfic, but I think the consensus is that most of them are bad and that making a good one is probably so difficult as to be nearly impossible.

I think the issue comes from trying to include an auditory effect in a purely visual medium. If you listened to the song in question while reading the story it might work well, but simply injecting the lyrics into the narrative makes only for disjointed writing, especially when the lyrics don't quite fit the action. If a writer managed to pull it off smoothly, though, and had an interesting story to tell rather than an angstfest, it could work.

So, to answer the question, no, simply writing a songfic is not a charge. As with any other type of fic, the charge list for a songfic would have to demonstrate why it's a bad songfic.

~Neshomeh

Is it a PPC charge for simply writing a songfic? Or are songfics like slashfics, in that the PPC recognizes they can be good if they are handled well by a talented author, therefore requiring a charge against "Bad Songfics" instead of just "Songfics?"

I ask this because I've been toying around with a PPC idea for some time. I want to make sure I'm not going against any established rules before I write it.

I...um...was very busy. Had lots to do and such...um...Oh Ya! I remembered what I was doing, I was getting you a present from the Random Present Shoppe. I got you a rail car filled with electrical cords. You never know when you may need a wire or two to fix your control panel. they also make very handy leashes!

Yes, a "product of misogyny." That sums it up perfectly. Sorry, I was trying to say that, but I was a bit angry at the essay and I forgot to clarify. >.

I think she failed to demonstrate her point with her examples by failing to illustrate the connections between one and the other. Also missed the point, at least where the PPC is concerned. As Italian for Grandma said, Did Not Do The Research.

And... her entire point is that the term "Mary-Sue" is hurtful and shouldn't be used? Okay. I'm perfectly happy to say "poorly-written, unrealistic, shallow female character" instead if it'll make everyone feel better. {= P

I think I would be less annoyed if I felt we could respond publicly without being told to shut up. The hypocrisy burns us, Precious!

But maybe this warrants a new entry in the FAQ For Other People...

Calling Mary-Sue is misogynist!
There are those who believe that sporking Mary-Sues perpetrates a culture that oppresses young women trying to empower themselves through their writing, and that the term itself is offensive. We disagree.

First of all, many Mary-Sues themselves are NOT empowered characters, and ascribe to the basest tenets of the patriarchy (heterosexual marriage is the true way to happiness, women are homemakers, men win the bread, etc.) (Artell). How many Mary-Sues join the Fellowship only to have Aragorn or Boromir save them in a dramatic manner from a danger that a so-called empowered female could have got out of herself? How many Mary-Sues fall in love with a wholly unsuitable, even dangerous man (e.g. Sweeney Todd, Severus Snape, the Phantom of the Opera), and expect the power of Twu Wuv to turn him into the perfect mate and father so she can have a perfect life? How many Mary-Sue stories depend on a man to complete the fantasy? How is that empowering to women?

Second, the PPC believes that there is no excuse for bad writing, and the fact of the matter is that people who write Mary-Sues are likely to be poor writers. However, there IS such a thing as a well-written Mary-Sue, as shocking as that may seem. We are aware of this. You will never see us sporking a well-written, well-constructed Mary-Sue. Why? Because, as is stated elsewhere, the PPC rarely goes after only moderately bad fics, and we will never go after a good one. Even if it contains a Mary-Sue.

The fact that we primarily spork Sues has little to do with hating female characters and everything to do with hating bad writing. It's like drawing a correlation between ice cream sales and murders: the number of ice cream sales in a month appears to strongly correlate to the number of murders in a month; however, ice cream sales clearly do not cause murders. Both ice cream sales and murders strongly correlate to the temperature of the weather: murders are more likely to occur in warm weather, and so are ice cream sales. Similarly, Mary-Sues alone do not warrant sporking. Even though many sporkings happen to Mary-Sues, it is because of the third factor of bad writing, not the Sues themselves.

Third, a question: would you rather have us use a word other than Mary-Sue? Because we're perfectly happy to say "poorly-written, unrealistic, shallow female character" instead if it'll make everyone feel better.

Finally, we cannot ignore the fact that most fan fiction writers, sporkers and Suethors alike, are female. Although women can certainly be misogynist, it's a bit foolish to overlook this fact when complaining of sexist behavior. Of COURSE most of the works we spork are written by female writers, because that's who's doing most of the writing. If more guys were out there writing terrible stories, we'd spork them, too. Have done, in fact. [Insert links to killed Gary-Stus here]. It's just that they appear with far less frequency than female Mary-Sues written by female writers.

Feel free to add to/refine that. It's heat-of-the-moment right now, probably not the most objective or clear. ^_^;

~Neshomeh

A date would be nice though.

If i can get a date for the meeting, there may be a possibility that i could make it to the meeting. However, no promises.

There can be unnecessary cruelty. I think the goal should be to help people become better writers. Constructive criticism should always be a part of the 'treatment'. It's the author's prerogative to ignore it.

The point about Mary Sues being misogynistic is an insightful one too, though I don't know if it's misogyny as much as it's poor confidence, or delusions of grandeur, or wish-fulfilment. Maybe more accurately they are a *product* of misogyny? The comparison to body self-image is apt.

A lot of people can be unnecessarily cruel when criticizing a Mary-Sue fic. I know, because I can be that at times. We have to remember that we are not here to make fun of aspiring authors, since many of us were at that same point at one time or another.

That said, the author of this essay demonstrates the typical fanbrat tendency of not doing the research. She has a temper tantrum at the beginning of the essay about taking words out of context, and then she goes right ahead and takes Jay and Acacia's words out of context. The rant didn't even really fit in with the point she was trying to make.

And that comic strip? Hah! If she was trying to criticize the PPC, she's a hypocrite, because she's advocating the same sort of behavior she seems to detest in PPC agents.

Then she lists a few awesome female characters who, in different contexts, might be called Sues...and says that we hate them. No we don't, because these characters were handled well. They were special, yeah, but not so much more so than everyone else. They didn't get away with breaking the laws of nature, physics, and their respective governments simply because of their specialness. They had characters, and stuck to them. They didn't try to 'fix' a world that didn't require fixing. When faced with a misogynistic society or situation, they didn't fix it by spewing mindless feminist rhetoric (like the author of this essay), they fixed it by bloody well pulling up their sleeves and *prooving* they could be as good as the boys. Yeah, they saved the day, and they were badass about doing it, but the whole world did *not* revolve around their every little need. *That's* what makes a strong feminine character...the ability to be strong just because she *is* strong.

Eowyn, anyone?

Plus, Mary Sues *are* the product of a misogynistic mindset. You know how everyone criticizes rail-thin models because they threaten the self-image of preteen girls? A Mary Sue is what happens when that negative self-image crosses over into fanfiction, when a girl is convinced that in order to be special, she has to be a goddess...instead of just being herself. I'm convinced that if more girls were satisfied with who and what they are, we would have less Mary-Sues to kill.

The essayist also forgets that, while the majority of fanfic writers *are* female, there are males as well...and they have to put up with the same type of crap that female authors do. For example, the PPC criticizes Twilight, a badfic published by a female author, for obvious reasons. However, it also criticizes the Inheritance Cycle, a badfic published by a male author, also for obvious reasons. This isn't about us trying to repress female authors...it's about us giving male *and* female authors a reality check. If the essayist had cared to actually read the missions, she would have seen that the PPC is an equal-opportunity sporking society.

Anyone who has read the sporkings of "That Series" knows that the PPC isn't misogynistic...the fics the PPC kills are.

And I shall descend from my soapbox now.

It's reillybf@msn.com.

What's your email adress? The read-through will have to be delayed for several hours, however, as I need to catch up on my sleep (been playing too much videogames lately).

Bye!

intellectually dishonest to hide behind the barrier of feminism and female empowerment to defend poor writing. It demeans female empowerment. Many Mary Sues are NOT empowered characters, and ascribe to the basest tenets of the patriarchy (heterosexual marriage is the true way to happiness, women are homemakers, men win the bread, etc.).

To paint PPC and critics of Sues as misogynistic is doubly dishonest, because PPCers are, in my impression, predominantly female*, which leads to my main point: *fan fiction is mainly written by women.* I just can't find any way around that fact. If a vast majority of fics are by women, then poor fics will also be written mostly by women, and thus you will have way more female Mary Sues.

It reminds me of the way heterosexual white men go about whining how modern society is actually oppressing *them*.

'Bullying' is also disingenuous. No one is making you publish your writing. If you don't like the criticism, you can ignore it, you can not accept it, you can circulate your stories in a closed community. But if you publish it on a place like fanfiction.net, you are implicitly consenting to scrutiny.

* Caveat: women CAN be misogynistic, obviously.

Storming the Battlements or: Why the Culture of Mary Sue Shaming is a Bully Culture

It is a very interesting essay and I found it through someone's LJ and I'm wondering what everyone here thinks.

If it helps, I hosted a Gathering before, with a grand total of zero casualties (apart from Mrs. Leggy). Also, some things to keep in mind:

• The Boston public library, my proposed initial meeting place, has security guards stationed by the entrance. If anything suspicious happens, they will know. So, if you meet up with us and decide you're not comfortable going anywhere else with the group, you can just wander around the library with us and be perfectly safe, then bid us a fond adieu.

• At no point will we be going into...
- My house
- Any house
- A bar or club of any kind
- Any property that's off-limits to the general public

• You will not be getting into a car with a stranger, because I do not have a car. Nor do I like throwing money away on taxis. Short of a major natural disaster, we will be using public transportation.

• This is not a sleepover, an overnight visit, whathaveyou. The last Gathering began between 10:30 and 11:50 in the morning and was over at around 4:30 in the afternoon. We can stretch or shift those hours a bit, depending on everyone's preference, but I don't anticipate it lasting until sunset, let alone the wee hours of the morning.

• We will not be touring any unsafe areas of the city. Mostly, I see us walking near Copley, Park Street, the North End, and/or the waterfront.

Hope that helps!

~Araeph

I might be the oldest of the group...24! *gasp* That's what comes of being in my seventh year as a Boarder. But hey, on my first Gathering I met with Newmoon, Jo, and Greyladybast. If memory serves me, they were 15, 18, and 31 at the time--quite a variety, considering.

I can give it a read-through.

You see, it seems that my second Beta also has RL concerns that make him unable to work with me on my Original/Fan Fiction project. Because of that, I have no one to help me in its completion, and i'm now forced to work alone. Can anyone help? More information available for those who accept.

But I wish the potential sporkers good luck.

I have to see the movie, methinks. looks nothing like the book, so it should be good.

Do you realize that the Suethor hadn't even seen the movie when she wrote "Fly With Me"? I can't deal with that. >.
Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go spork my eyes out. But not before I call in the Repetitive Department of Repetition and the Department of Redundancy Department. Yes. Both of them. The writing is that bad.

~Neshomeh, who has rarely seen stupidity reach such depths before now. O.o