Subject: Not overly contentious...
Author:
Posted on: 2014-08-21 05:08:00 UTC
I've been pushing people on the IRC towards this thread, and there is general consensus there. We will follow the Board's lead.
(And really, our "own additional rules" are just re-phrasings of the Constitution.)
Was going to wait until Octoberish for this but...
First badfic is fimfiction.net/story/187637/my-little-furry-yiffing-is-magic.
What makes writing for the PPC special to you?
What makes you want to write missions for the PPC?
The "what to include" list doesn't seem to mention permission prompts, so I'll use those as the writing sample.
So based on Tira's crit, I went back to polish the writing sample. The original sample is from June before I wrote them into the first mission. Today is unpolished and unfinished, but I didn't have to fight to get words on the page.
Kim went from a puppet in a situation that I had to force to be annoyed to someone who actually had a reason to think that Hue was not competent.
For the second prompt, she went from someone who just had a walkman because she needed one for the situation to... well it got kinda meta but she actually started talking to me, reminding me that she was a bit once and she might have some holdovers that don't make sense. (Sorta like her oral fixation simply because there was a lot of smoking and gum-chewing in movies back then.)
This wouldn't have happened if I hadn't started writing them in situations that made sense to me, which is the argument I've been making.
Still undone and unpolished, but demonstrates the frustration I've had all this time. This was written after I put them through proper missions.
No more.
We are not interested in seeing anything else from you at this time, nor are we interested in seeing anything else from you in the near future- and the near future does not mean 'next day or two'. The near future can be taken to mean 'several months, well past December 2014'.
I've been speaking from the point of view of someone who's only recently returned after quite sometime, but for this I am putting on the PG hat I had set away quite some time ago and telling you that Permission is denied. Stop submitting requests for Permission.
You do not have permission to write PPC missions or anything set in the shared PPC universe, and never had. Your missions were ever allowed in the first place due to not having permission. You shouldn't've been writing them in the first place. You are the first person I can name in years who's carried on like this and so readily flaunted writing without permission.
Stop writing them.
Writing replies on the phone, as it turns out, is not the best idea.
First up: I am not a Permission Giver. I do not have Permission myself. You should not consider this to be some kind of official statement on the quality of your work. However, I have noticed some aspects of your writing that could be improved upon. This is just some friendly critique, and I hope you take it in the intended spirit.
The first thing I noticed is that your samples feel really, really short. The first one is technically within the requested length, but just barely. Moreover, it feels like it's about half a scene. It says in the text that Kimberly had just lost her patience, but we don't really see any fallout from that. Is she completely placated by his response? That seems really unlikely for what we see of her character. The second one isn't technically within the requested length, which is okay, but it also feels kind of thrown together, if that makes sense. It could really stand to be fleshed out.
The other thing is probably the reason that the samples seem short. Your writing is somewhat stiff and emotionless. We get a few peaks into Kimberly's head, but not enough to really get a good sense of her personality. I don't think we ever explicitly get to see what Hue's thinking, which is okay - you can stick with one PoV agent if you want - but makes it hard to get a sense of him besides 'cute, fluffy thing,' which is a physical description, not a personality one. A good example is the end of the first sample. How does he say his line? Is he irritated that she’s not taking him seriously? Disappointed that she doesn’t want to be friends with him? Trying to be the mature one while Kimberly is on the verge of a temper tantrum? Any of those is a valid response. Any of those would be an interesting direction for building both characters. But we don’t get any of those, and it’s impossible for the reader to judge your intentions. Similarly, in the second one we get no sense as to how Kimberly feels about her Walkman being potentially ruined. Is she sad? Cross? Does that tape have any special meaning to her? And it doesn’t fit with the slightly irritable personality she displays elsewhere.
Overall, it just comes off a little like you see Permission as a pointless formality, and you’re just trying to rush through it. Which is specifically mentioned on the Permission page as something you don’t want to do.
This is the first time someone has actually concrited the writing sample beyond formatting and first impression of basic content.
I'm gonna agree with JulyFlame on this one - Not Cool. I am not the first person to say things along these lines. Please don't turn me into some kind of ammunition.
Please, get your passive aggression and/or delusional behavior gone.
I find your accusation offensive. I find passive comments less-rude, but in light of recent education, I'm the one who was rude. I am sorry for that.
This is the first time that someone actually looked at it for quality of writing. I'm not sure how to phrase that properly, but it is the truth. Other comments were just about the length or presentation. I have resentment about that.
I compliment Tira on what she did, even if I don't know how to express it properly.
It doesn't lessen the accuracy on my part.
Here, Dann actually gave concrit on one of your previous permission requests- I would certainly say that it counts as looking for 'quality of writing', right there.
Making that comment is quite the slap to the face to the people who have given you feedback and advice on writing previously- you're picking and choosing whom to validate to continue in the path you've set yourself on.
There is no such thing as a Worthless Noob Opinion. We like our newbies to have opinions on things.
Even if there was such a thing, your opinion would still not be worthless. You made excellent points, backed up by specific examples from the writing samples. This is a good response. Keep it up and don't sell yourself short just because you are new here.
-Phobos
Thank you for that. I meant it more as self-deprecating humor than anything else, so don't worry. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't acting in any sort of official capacity.
Stats:
Name: Hue
Age, Sex, Species: Color-Sprite, male, age unknown
Home Continuum: A bad Rainbow-Brite fanfiction that invaded Yoda’s swamp-planet
RC, Department, Partner: RC 414, Despatch, partner is Kimberly Feinstein.
Appearance: Two feet tall. He’s a one-foot diameter ball of fluff with arms and legs. He is dyed completely black. He has beady eyes and a round pink nose.
He is a sprite from the Rainbow Brite universe. He was the servant of a Mary-Sue that wanted “to make Dagobah as colorful and beautiful as Earth.” His fur “is a completely new color that no one has ever seen before,” so he’s required to keep it dyed black. No one who has seen him can accurately describe whether he is bleen, bismuth, or just plain urple. His main diet is candy, but he’ll occasionally eat fresh fruit or starchy foods. Doesn't take bleep products yet. He’ll eventually drink bleepka, but never straight; it is always mixed with kool-aid or fruit juice.
Hue’s fanfiction of origin caused one of the agents to go flamethrower crazy and no-one knows what happened to the agent after he killed the Sue. Sprites are naturally helpful, and Hue managed to help the other agent through the portal back to headquarters. After that, he ran in fear from the agents that were trying to contain him. His obnoxious fur color caused headaches and momentary insanity and he was finally captured in a dark room.
Hue’s normal language is “Happytalk” which is a rapid succession of babbling squeaks. Pure Happytalk mostly references negative adjectives as lack of the positive opposite, but Hue has invented some new syllables to describe the horrors he has seen. He can speak English, but it is difficult for him to pronounce. He does speak normally when he is disguised as a human, but he’s just as likely to go as a rat or a squirrel that can pronounce Happytalk. When using him, dialog can either be translated or his partner can do one-sided conversations like in the Luke-centric Star Wars movies.
His special power is that he can look at obnoxious Sue colors and feel no discomfort.
Character references: Twink from Rainbow Brite, Care Bears from the 80’s cartoon, Sheldon Mopes from Death to Smoochy.
Hue is child-friendly in regards to violence. He recognizes that bad people should be stopped from doing bad things. He will happily shoot self-inserts with a tranquilizer pistol, but won’t do it if the insert is likely to get hurt. He believes that the mechanics of coupling should be left to the imagination, but doesn't realize that he can ask not to do missions involving it.
Stats:
Name: Kimberly Feinstein
Age, Sex, Species: Human female, 28 years
Home Continuum: Ghostbusters, New York
RC, Department, Partner: RC 414, Despatch, partner is Hue.
Appearance: Curvy but not in all the right places, 5’6”. Dark hair usually done in a french braid, dark eyes, average European skin tone, wears red plastic frames.
She was a bit character in a Ghostbusters fanfiction. She has a thick Brooklyn accent. She has seen enough to become jaded, but shows that something bothers her by snarking about it. She does have a tender side that comes off as grudging respect. She is from the 80’s but is about as tech-savvy as a modern secretary. She can write about one-hundred words-per-minute in Gregg Shorthand. She usually is either smoking a cigarette or chewing gum.
She is somewhat more Jewish than a typical lapsed Jew. She’ll refuse to eat pork, shellfish, or cheeseburgers, but will not inquire too deeply about Kosher preparation. She’ll try to follow holidays if she’s aware of the date, but doesn’t strictly follow sabbath practices. She hates Nazis slightly more than what is socially necessary.
Character references, Jenine from Ghostbusters, Roz from Monster’s Inc, Gloria from Heavy Metal without the promiscuity.
She has worked in the Department of Bad Slash.
Future plans include her getting sick of Despatch, assigned to Floaters after a stern warning, and going into Lord of the Flies division.
You have ignored a direct request to expand on an apology for blatant racism which was only extracted from you with extreme difficulty, specifically three separate statements that you need to do so to continue posting on the Board. Said apology reads very clearly as you feeling hard done by and only giving it under duress. It also contains explicit confirmation - not that any was needed - that you consider yourself genuinely racist.
As a consequence of all these factors, your statement that 'she hates Nazis slightly more than what is socially necessary' reads, to me, as 'I don't believe hating Nazis has any foundation, but sigh, it's socially necessary to pretend to do so'. Which would be an incredibly racist attitude to express.
However, all of the above is my interpretation of events, not an assertion of fact. Therefore, I am requesting the PPC community to offer opinions:
-Has zdimensia, during or after her apology, violated the letter or spirit of the PPC Constitution, or any other standards of behaviour you believe to apply to the PPC Board?
-If so, what should the community's response be?
hS
Ever since I joined the board, I joked about how haste is bad, and my not so secret fear to have not written what I intended to say. And it’s true. Whenever I didn’t take enough time, I find that I made a mistake (fortunately mostly minor ones, which only offend my own perfectionism). So I still want to believe that zdimensia isn’t malicious, and that she genuinely tried to do right, but nearly always messed it up. I’m not qualified to diagnose this communications problem and to find a treatment, but I’m sure it’s there.
Our purpose is to improve writing, our own and other’s. But this shouldn’t get into the way of our other purpose: having fun here. Dealing with zdimensia hasn’t been fun for a long time now, and I don’t expect this to change soon.
I’m wondering whether things might have been different if some Big Sib had taken her hand early on, to guide her and to slow her down [EXPLETIVE not translated]. I sincerely considered to do this when I beta read her workshop contribution, but before I could get my thoughts together, she had already run away and posted again, and again, and again. And I’m Hieronymus the Eremite for reasons, I’m not suited for this kind of job anyway, and I don’t see anybody else who might like to do this tedious work in the near future. We’re all fed up and need time to recover. It’s an act of self-protection, not a punishment. One year seems to be appropriate.
It’s still sad that we cannot help. Sorry, zdimensia, I hope you find a way to cope with this.
HG (not cowardly lying low until the storm is over)
I've been staying out of all this, partially because I'm sort of scared of conflict and blowing up at people, and also because everyone else has been making their points so much more eloquently than I ever could, but I would like to put in my word here, for what it is worth.
I concur with the idea of a temporary, one-year-long ban for... well, basically everything everyone's already said.
-Aila
Back in zdimensia's previous Permission requests, I offered to beta for her next attempt. During that betaing process, she asked me to also take a look at a mission that she'd started working on - something that I was happy to do as I didn't see any harm in it, and she accepted that she wouldn't be able to publish it until she had Permission.
So while I haven't had much in the way of in depth discussions with her, I have interacted with her a lot. During betaing I found her polite and easy to understand, with none of the animosity etc. that has marred recent threads. For whatever reason, as Miah noted, zdimensia's behaviour/ability to communicate is noticeably different between the open Board and private chats.
Sadly my comments/advice were all about the actual writing, and not about interacting with the community - something that I meant to address, but it looks like I've ran out of time for that to do any good here. If I'd known that she was going to make a Permission Request again so soon I would have advised strongly against it.
After re-reading all of the relevant posts again, my opinion is that she has violated the Constitution, although the impression I get is more one of confusion rather than deliberate malice.
I wouldn't be prepared to support to a perma-ban at this time, but I would support a probation 'one more strike and you're out', or a temporary ban to give her time to learn how to fit in with the community here. As for the length of temporary ban, I dunno, a year seems like a very long time for a 'temporary' measure - I'm leaning more towards the 6 months end of the scale myself.
The reason I suggested a year is that, further down the thread, zdimensia has already said that she didn't plan on posting much until December anyway. A 'ban' which constitutes only two months-worth of time in which she would actually have been posting feels like a slap on the wrist, a 'ha ha you scamp', than what it's meant to be: a firm statement that we are serious about people following the Constitution, and willing to impose severe sanctions on those who refuse to.
But, as I've said throughout - that's how it feels to me; I make no claims about how the community at large sees it. Nor do I insist on any particular course of action - I don't have that right, and nor does anyone else. Whatever the community-at-large decides is fine with me. I'm just explaining my reasoning. ;)
hS
...since I've quickly learned to stay away from this user's threads after reading the subject lines, but make it hammer time.
I didn't think it was possible for a thread to turn into a worse cluster than the last one. I've been proven wrong.
Zdimensia has violated the constitution and appears to be willfully and proudly ignoring the permission process. As Phobos has noted (far more eloquently than I could), she has scarcely given apologies - her usual responses when confronted have demonstrated a level of sarcasm and vitriol that would have been on the constitution if we had thought that it was something that would come up.
In my mind, the conclusion is inescapable - Zdimensia has shown herself to be unwilling or unable to be a member of this community and should be treated as such. This is why we have article 9.
I've been worse-than-usual about lurking and not keeping up with PPC news the last few months, and so I only became aware of this issue after it was well and truly happening.
That said, I'd vote for a ban, having gone through and read (after the fact) a lot of Zdimensia's recent interactions with Boarders, whether venerable and respected or the newest of Newbies.
Individual posts can be chalked up to misunderstandings, but there being so many issues smacks of a systematic issue: from my reading of the situation, this is not someone who is acting (or appears willing to act in future) in keeping with the principles of the PPC Constitution.
I concur with others that a voluntary ban is unlikely to be effective.
Elcalion
Namely: perma-ban, enforced with The Nameless Admin's dreaded and seldom-used banhammer? Or, as some folks seem to be espousing, a voluntary some-month hiatus?
I submit that we take the voluntary hiatus off the table. My reasoning is pretty simple: unless we see some evidence that zdimensia understands the issues with her behavior, I find it very, very likely we'll just be having this conversation again, or a very, very similar one, in a few months. Why temp-ban to December 21st without at least some security that we're not going to see another permission request with the same issues on December 23rd?
Based on many previous experiences with many previous (and former/ex) PPCers (in the IRC, at least), I find it highly unlikely that a temp ban, without any evidence of an understanding on zdimensia's part on specifically what she did wrong, is going to do any more than defer the issue for a few months.
There's an approximately even split between 'temporary' and 'permanent'. I counted nine temporary, ten permanent, and one which was too unclear for me to say.
The only temporary timeline which has been proposed, other than zdimensia's '4 months', is '6 months to a year'.
While I personally support a full ban, I think the clear divide in community opinion is enough to make the correct response a temporary ban. I propose that this should be one full year, running to September 2015; at that point, if zdimensia is still interested, she would be permitted to resume posting on the Board, with the understanding that she would be required to follow the Constitution - ie, that that would be her second chance. If, prior to 1st September 2015, she posted on the Board, she would be permanently banned.
And... this is always a contentious issue, but we're not just talking about the Board. I believe the PPC Community should be a community; therefore, a ban issued here, temporary or permanent, should apply to the IRC as well. The Constitution applies equally to both areas, and the Board doesn't have its own additional rules like the IRC does. Since she is apparently active in the Chat, anyone who only visits the IRC should probably be invited to offer their opinions, too.
hS
I've been pushing people on the IRC towards this thread, and there is general consensus there. We will follow the Board's lead.
(And really, our "own additional rules" are just re-phrasings of the Constitution.)
Plenty of us have long memories when it comes to wrong-doings.
I was initially leaning more towards six months, but there has been just a little too much refusing-to-listen in this case.
I had assumed that a ban here - temporary or permanent - would mean a ban there. I know there are people who refuse to touch the 'Board, because of hurts that ran both ways (and some simple preferences), and vice versa, for all the same reasons. But we are, despite that, a community of some sort or another, and as has been said before, there is absolutely no reason someone should be able to break the rules here and go dodge the consequences here, or vice versa.
If the community supports a temp-ban, that's the call.
...man, I want so badly to make a snarky comment about 'reasonableness'...
On one hand, I don't want her around. On the other hand, a year is a long time, and people change. I'm inclined to support a full ban for a year, contingent on compliance with it (non-compliance should lead to a permanent ban).
I'll also drop the IRC people a message if I'll catch them.
I was going to cocoon at midnight, New York time, but this requires an extra day.
I think that zdimensia just Doesn't Get (tm) the PPC, either as a universe or as a community. They're also rather hard to communicate with, and seem to miss the point of what people are saying to them a lot.
Now, what I've pointed out above is, in my opinion, cause to deny Permission. However, zdimensia was also rather racist and didn't actually change their behavior after their apology, which seemed a bit insincere. I don't believe that the PPC is a place for racism or other -isms, and I think that zdimensia's behavior is inconsistent with the culture of the PPC. Also, zdimensia has, as others have explained downthread, attacked many other people in the community in a way that's against the spirit of the Constitution.
Because of all this, I think a temporary ban (few months to a year) is in order so zdimensia can try to better understand what we're about before participating in the PPC.
Her repeated infractions-- all in a very short period of time, mind you-- and her lack of initiative to correct her behaviour makes me suspect that she's doing this to get a rise out of us.
If this is the case, she has succeeded. If it isn't, it doesn't change the fact that zdimensia has been excessively rude and condescending to the PPC community.
I vote "ban".
I've tried to keep out of this so far, other people have been able to handle this matter far better than I could. But, with this more open invitation to speak I feel like I should.
As almost everyone else as said, this is too soon for a Permission Request considering the events down-Board.
That's not my main problem however, what is is the way that zdimensia is treating, not just the other people on the Board but the whole situation and even, dare I say it, the PPC itself. There seems to be a distinct lack of respect being shown to some of the more respectable and elder members of the PPC (no offence to anyone meant), as well as a habit for dodging and diving, making excuses and finding ways to try and squirm out from taking the full blame responsibly and doing something about it. It also seems to me that zdimensia does not care about the community or the rules of the PPC, not just the Constitution, and sees it only as a stepping stone and a place to write her own missions, whether they are on badfic or just pieces of fiction she does not like.
I fear that my words may seem to harsh, but I find myself having trouble directly transposing my thoughts on this matter.
If, and it seems it will, come to a ban then I would, and if I had any control in the matter I would restrict it to say six months to a year, if after that time zdimensia can come back and become a fully functioning member of the community who respects all others and the PPC itself then let her try for Permission in the future, if she does not return at all, then we may assume she has found somewhere else to set up base, or maybe simply given up on the idea, and if she comes back, but cannot function within the community then a full ban could come into effect. Although I do not know how easy things like this are to do on the Board.
Storme Hawk.
I don't know if it would be inappropriate to bring up that "I came out to have a good time..." meme from a few months back, but I'm sorry to say that it's pretty much my opinion about this whole mess in a nutshell.
I really didn't want to speak up about this, I really didn't. I wanted to think of the PPC Board as a caring, tolerant community, but it really feels like I was burying my head in the sand until this came up. Given how little I know of this individual, I honestly don't have that much to say on this matter, and I didn't want to say this out loud, but the way everyone has been responding to their actions legitimately terrified me for a moment - of course, I'm not really calling out anyone, but still, it could very well have been myself who could've been attracting so much ire.
To explain in greater detail, I actually exhibited the exact same problems as zdimensia here up until a few years ago. Sometime during 2011, I joined a group on deviantART that was about a collaborative crossover story involving multiple artists and writers, and specifically I somehow managed to shoehorn my way into the group of main admins. I insisted on having my way, writing other peoples' characters into my own stories, and inserting my own characters into theirs. When they called me out on this, I responded with sarcasm and spiteful comments, and when I specifically asked one of the major admins to write something for me despite their being busy, said admin put his foot down and, after failing to convince me to stop what I was doing, he eventually banned me from the group in its entirety.
Throughout most of 2012, I ended up in a standoff with the people concerned. I tried everything from apologizing to actually working towards a creative effort, but not only did I inherently fail to accept responsibility for my actions ("Oh noooo, why did they have to ban me? I didn't deserve it because like, I'm so creative and special!"), but I also slavishly worshipped their ideas too much to think of my own. So these people went the extra mile to criticize and eventually publicly libel the art and writing I had produced at the time. The whole ugly business was settled at the end of the year, and we've gone our separate ways, but that doesn't change the fact that it still happened. If there was any one good thing that came of it, the fact that these people got upset led me to realize that my behavior was hurting their feelings, and it's why I'm much nicer and more considerate these days.
Mind you, these very same attitude problems I had back then were the exact reason that the one and only badfic I've ever written (which I plan to spork once I get permission, of course) turned out the way it did. That and wanting to bone a certain Violet Parr and turn her into a dinosaur.
Ugh, I did not want to have to revisit all the ugly memories of the above incident, but the point I'm trying to make is that no matter how much zdimensia here is apologizing, IT'S NOT GOING TO CHANGE THE FACT THAT SHE DID ALL THIS UNLESS SHE OWNS UP TO HER MISTAKES. I know from experience that people can't and probably won't trust your apologies unless you make good on them. Especially on the Internet where we can't tell whether they're genuine. If she can prove, however, that she can communicate in a civil manner, admit that she was wrong in saying the things she did previously, and do her research before rushing in with her metaphorical guns blazing, I'd be willing to call a ceasefire as well. I just don't see that proof just yet.
So, to zdimensia: If you really are sincere, and judging from what I'm reading I won't discount that you're genuinely trying to back off, I have a feeling you've still got a lot of ground to cover. I've spent most of my time since joining actually reading up on the PPC and all related literature, so as to get an idea of what I'm up against once I request permission to start writing missions. Needless to say, I will kindly advise you to do the same, not in the least because it'll certainly help you avoid flak like this. And honestly, six months to a year should give you plenty of time to do exactly that.
And in the meantime, I know you want this put behind you, and honestly I feel the same way, but like I implied above, actions speak louder than words. So while I'll be willing to forgive you if you make good on what you've said, I don't think I'm alone in that I can't trust you to create content for the PP...il you can prove that you've got what it takes to handle the job.
Tl;dr: Seriously, kid. MAN UP.
Because wynaut.
So far, 7 people have stated that they definitely either want zdimensia to leave willingly, be banned, or a combination of the two. These are firemagic, Miah, PoorCynic, Phobos, Desdendelle, Neshomeh, Iximaz, and Anonymouse. In addition, two posts seem to be leaning torwards this angle but I'm not sure if they count as actual votes. These are Julyflame and Darkotas.
Only one person seems to be on the "let's wait and see"/"Let her stay" angle, and even then, I'm not sure if Doctorlit was intending for that.
This is not meant to be final, as I am FAR from qualified for that at the moment. This is just a tally-up of everyone that's posted so far.
I deliberately didn't state a course of action, in order not to prejudice other Boarders, but for my money, zdimensia has outstayed her welcome and should leave, permanently. Some side-comments:
-The voluntary departure until December should not be accepted, mostly because of 'I want to propose a post-nanowrimo beta-party...'. That statement confirms what others have feared - that if she left and came back, she would go directly into the 'pay attention to me, I am the centre of the world' attitude we've been seeing all along.
-However, any ban should be 'voluntary', in that it doesn't necessarily require a technical ban from the Nameless Admin. If she breaks the 'voluntary' ban, then IP-blocking and post-deleting should be brought into play. But I'd prefer to rely on community action where possible.
-Counting me, the voting now seems to be around 18 votes to ban. That's a stronger consensus than I've seen here in a long time.
hS
I've already explained my thoughts in detail here, but basically I've decided to agree to a call for at least a temporary leave of absence on zdimensia's part, if only because it'll allow her to stop and think about what she's doing wrong, not to mention, y'know, read about and understand the PPC.
If you ever intend to exterminate badfic, be sure you're not jumping into the portal without your armaments.
Given 'I've always personally been vehemently opposed to people who are of racist or of other similar hate-backed discriminating attitudes being present or allowed in the PPC community.' is fair final.
Do not ban me electronically. I will promise to stay away from the board of my own will until midnight on December 20. If I stay true to my promise, then we shall see.
Based on other things you've said in this thread, that you are already planning to be gone until mid-December. Am I correct in thinking that?
-Phobos
Well I might pop in to lurk. Is that acceptable, or do you want me gone, gone, don't even read?
The other things I said before were more towards being more of an upstanding member for that time period, but this promise is towards not saying anything.
...because you were already going to be leaving. And you expect us to not have a problem with that? I thought you'd already reached the highest possible level of outright, blatant, and mind-boggling obtuseness, and here you go expecting us to be fine with this?
I am truly baffled by your assumption that this is okay.
Is that, either way, no matter what happens in this thread you're likely to not really post until around the 21st of December. Thus 'proposing' that you go way for those four months is pointless as you're going to be away for those four months anyway and this time of 'exile' isn't you offering an olive branch it's just something you were planning on doing anyway.
However, if say you offered to leave for four months after that, that would be seen as more of an olive branch, you'd been seen as taking time away from the PPC on your own accord, not just because you have to, and I believe it would be better accepted.
Of course, this is just hypothetical and I'm not 100% sure if what I'm saying matches up with what Iximaz meant.
Storme Hawk
No. It is an olive branch.
If someone says, "prove yourself by good behavior" I will stay. I want to propose a post-nanowrimo beta-party, (like the last beta-session,) at the appropriate time, if I am invited to still be here.
If voluntarily not commenting for that time makes people happier, I will do that. Specifics on lurking or being completely "don't read." My plans for that amount of time amounts to "hang out on the internet."
My original proposal was simply not posting a fresh request for a defined time period.
I am simply requesting a lack of electronic interference. I use the metaphor of a fence vs honor. One is a barrier that could not be crossed if I tried. The other is a barrier I could cross at-will. It is a test.
I am promising that if an electronic barrier is not raised, then nothing but my own restraint is keeping me gone.
You want to know about the letter and spirit of the Constitution, and I would say she has consistently violated the letter of Articles 1 and 25. Add to that potentially violating the spirit of Articles 2, 4, 6, 11, and 24. However, that isn't even the biggest problem for me. My biggest problem is the lack of respect for the community and the members thereof. To call Neshomeh, July, and others 'liars' for making completely valid points is unacceptable.
We have been more than patient enough. When we have asked for apologies, we have received excuses, passive-aggressive sarcasm, and outright vitriol. Everything is a "misunderstanding". The apologies are not for her behavior, but how we reacted to it. She has never taken any responsibility for her behavior. The non-sequiturs, of which there were many, were bizarre and sometimes offensive.
I'm out of patience. We did the best that we could, and I am extremely proud of the community as a whole for trying far longer than I personally would have.
I will vote in favor of a ban, if it is on the table when the dust settles here.
-Phobos
I agree with what's been said by the others. ZDimensia doesn't seem to listen to the other Boarders without a great deal of fuss. Moreover it looks rather like they've set themselves as the victim here, who's being bullied by a nasty community. They've also made a few statements that just ping me as being ableist - for instance, the whole epileptics thing. And just in general, I find it very hard to parse what they're saying.
I've talked to Zdimensia quite a lot on the IRC. Sometimes, especially with a small crowd, she makes perfect sense, and doesn't say chat-killing or kick-worthy things. It's kind of nice to have another older person to talk to, and both our husbands are into homebrewing, so there is another common factor. I'm just saying this, because I am not trying to be mean when I say the rest. I have had some good experiences with her (which maybe no one else can say).
I don't like saying this, because I never had the guts to say it to her, bluntly, in chat (and I should have), but I really feel like she does not get the basic levels of the PPC. Aside from the reasons everyone else has mentioned (which are good reasons. Asking for Permission right after the sort of debacle that is the last thread is Not Cool.) I don't think she gets what is bad fic and what is not.
Several times she has linked fics that I think she was saying she wanted to spork (that confusing way of saying things comes up in IRC at times, too) that were good fics. Excellent writing, good plot, according to her (because I don't know the continuum) good characterization. The only thing against it was that it was AU (a good one, but AU), or it was a shipfic, or there was the transdimensional jump (which was handled way too well to spork. That was the only charge). I don't think there was any understanding achieved between the two of us when I said that not all AUs are automatically badfic, and not all shipfics are automatically AU.
So aside from everything else, if a person can't understand the difference between badfic and goodfic and that not all of an entire class of fics are automatically bad then I really wouldn't want them to have Permission. I think that goes deeper than any other writing* issue that's been brought up.
*I've got nothing of substance to add on the other issues, they've been covered very well, and I agree with what has been said. I agree that at this point that at least a voluntary separation for a time would be best.
There are cases for missions into goodfic where the agents realize the sorting accident. In-mission these would be acknowledged as goodfic and the agents leave again without disturbing it.
Replies to everyone are mixed up in here by subject, apologies if I miss one.
First off, yes, it seems to be people reading things incorrectly. I also feel that with all that screaming about "you're ignoring the point" you were also ignoring my points. Some of them points that I've been making for awhile. More about that in a fresh reply below.
As far as putting in another permission request. This is me trying to soothe tempers by actually trying to work with you. I refuse to lose ideas or let rewrites fester in the meantime. Either give me permission or ignore that detail. All I ask is no one jump down my throat when I ask for betas and I'll shut up about it until December or longer. (I'm working with a beta now and it's really helping.) Also more about that in the fresh reply.
About not replying to the direct request, it was because I already answered it two hours and eight hour previous. I had shown I got it, no need to ask more questions. http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=199610;article=262566 http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=262445;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board
I wasn't making non-sequiters, so therefore I had to assume that non-sequiter had another meaning. And I wasn't trying to insult Des or anyone else. I apologize for things that did look like insults.
***
Should I not apologize for having that attitude in the first place? I promise to work on it, and shutting up about it now.
I delayed my apology to think about it, hence people making multiple demands. I'm sorry for that too.
***
I did research about Jews and lapsed Jews, I simply cannot find all of the pages anymore. There were many different interpretations of what people do and do not hold onto and Kim is an amalgam of that. (Still celebrating holidays but in shortened form, some things about keeping Kosher in the home but eating bacon in restaurants, even some rabbinical laws.) I suppose I could drop most of that from her character.
Doctorlit got it right. "Socially necessary hatred of Nazis" is having the passion to remember what they did and work towards it not happening again, (as opposed to just not caring or letting the memory fade,) up to hating the laws that prevent taking certain measures. Kim's hatred is to the point where she wants to go beyond simple illegality and into disproportionate retribution. The safest way to express this is that she can convince a Flower that sending her into "Der Jude That Got Away" would result in completely the wrong sort of paperwork. (In contrast to the Paddlebrains mission with eunich!Snape and Remus and she got neuralyzed afterward.) I can remove that from her profile to give her the assumed measure of hatred.
I'm sorry, but your saying "Either give me permission or ignore that detail." sounds to me like a threat. Your position is clearly, "If I don't get permission, something is wrong with you guys."
And yes, zdimensia, it is hard to figure our what you are saying, and where you're coming from, at times. For instance, over here, I couldn't make heads or tails of what you meant by "a huge confusion". Hence our saying that you make non-sequiturs. We can't understand where you're coming from, so to us, it seems like it comes out of left field.
And what Paddlebrains mission?! You can't honestly be saying that she's already done a mission with Paddlebrains, can you?!
June 2008 HST
Mission Eleven: 'Manhood' (Harry Potter)
In which Pads is tormented by naked!Snape.
"Huge confusion" as in "something really doesn't make sense."
What I'm saying with "either" is "do one thing or another, it is the same."
Whoops, forgot my judgement.
I also now believe that zdimensia should take a leave from the Board. This is getting out of hand.
I may be somewhat new to this community, but everything you've done so far defies all logic. You break some rules, the community calls you on it, you apologize... And then proceed to do the very thing they called you out for? That's not how you cool tensions, that's how you ignite them further. I don't have a problem with you as a person, but the way you are presenting yourself within the community serves only to cause conflict. If you can't handle the guidelines set by the PPC, then don't be a part of it.
Dimensia, if someone says you insulted them, you don't say "but... [insert arguments here], therefore I did not insult you." You apologise. That's basic politeness. When I told you you insulted me and why, you replied with arguments and sarcasm. That's not how you behave in decent society. In fact, IRL, such things mean shouting and thumping the table because that's demeaning and disgusting.
Also - you obviously have a very different idea of what should follow what, logically, than the rest of the world (and coming from me, that means something - I'm the guy with the Stoic-Cartesian-sceptic philosophy). You also ignored Ozzielot's explanation. This means that you're either malicious or that you simply can't get what's going on.
As to the Nazi comment... hating the Nazis is not some 'social necessity'. It's something much, much more than that - FYI, I lost family members to those scum and my grandparents nearly died in the Holocaust. I don't hate the Nazis because it's 'socially necessary', I hate them because they were ...ing genocidal dickheads that tried - and succeeded to a certain degree - to kill every single member of my nation. Again, this comment either shows ignorance - massive ignorance - or malice that is outright evil and quite possibly illegal.
Your apology... I don't think it's sincere.
Get outta here. My personal opinion is that you shouldn't be here. Go away. Shoo. Kishta.
"Either give me permission or ignore that detail. "
Are you saying you're going to continue to write PPC stories regardless of your Permission status? That is extremely rude, not to mention Not Allowed here.
Your whole tone comes across as very hostile and you have me the impression that you don't give a damn about what we as a community represent.
I'm sorry, but I'm fed up with your attitude.
My tone is level.
You're coming off as angry. Am I wrong?
Everything Iximaz said is solid and sensible. The tone of it doesn't have too much of a bearing here. It's not as though their having emotions makes their point in any way less important. It's not as though the one who keeps better control of their tone has the correct point of view.
A lot of people seem to actually think that the one who can keep thier cool the longest are the correct ones.
It's a relief that it doesn't apply here.
If you can keep your cool and make your opponent lose theirs, then you make them seem really unreasonable to anyone who is watching the debate. It doesn't even matter much what your position is. People have a hard time looking past the shouting to figure out what is actually being said.
Not that the person losing their cool is always right, of course. Just remember, being the one with the cool head really can't hurt your position.
-Phobos
I am seriously unable to tell if you are a legitimate person or a troll at this point. That is actually a pretty impressive feat.
As other people have said before, zdimensia's apology was not only extracted with the maximum amount of difficulty but lacks any sort of indication that she is willing to change. That idea was only enforced for me when I saw this most recent request for permission. To ask now? After everything that just occurred? With no time taken for heads to cool or for self-introspection? Seriously?
That right there is indicative of the kind of kind of disrespect and self-centeredness she has demonstrated that concerns me to no end. She has repeatedly and directly insulted several PPC members (and indirectly insulted pretty much all of us) and implied that the legitimate complaints levied against her are just some sort of hazing ritual. Her posts try to paint her as a victim, bullied and mistreated by we unkind denizens of the Board.
I wish I had spoken up about this earlier. I SHOULD have spoken up about this earlier. I'm vaguely ashamed that it took me this long. But I'm speaking now, and I say that zdimensia has no place in this community. I support a ban.
After the racism problem, the non-sequiturs, the insulting people and glossing over it... the obvious lack of research into lapsed Jews (because the I'm-not-sure-I-believe-but-I-still-eat-Kosher type don't behave that way) and the Nazi comment - because, damn, people have very, very, very good reasons to hate the Nazis (Holocaust, anyone?) - make me feel she's a bit out of touch with what's acceptable and what's not here.
I agree with Nesh. This isn't the place for Dimensia.
An apology is nothing without a serious commitment to change behind it. To use an expression from A Song of Ice and Fire, words are wind. I've seen the words "I'm sorry," but I've seen no evidence that zdimensia is actually committed to backing up those words with an effort to improve her attitudes and behavior.
Like everyone so far, I'm amazed that she's asking for Permission again at this time. To me, on top of everything that happened down-Board, it seems to show a worrying lack of situational awareness at the very least. At worst, it shows a complete disregard for anything but getting what she wants, which, in my mind, would violate the spirit of the Constitution.
I am not willing to share the fictional PPC universe with zdimensia at this time. I'm also extremely tired of being personally and "professionally" (? is "PG" a profession?) disrespected and ignored. While I don't like resorting to banning, I feel strongly that any sort of probation won't work, since she's shown herself perfectly willing to ignore the rules and do what she wants anyway and hasn't expressed any intent to change. So, to prevent any further disruptions to normal Board activities, I think it's time for zdimensia to leave. Preferably of her own free will and temporarily, as a sign of contrition and until she can get to a more stable place in her life, but with actual banning if necessary.
~Neshomeh
I can't say if she behaved in the wrong way since the apology because... well, this request was one of the first things she posted after the apology.
The fact that she went straight for Permission again, for which the community's trust is a requirement, after we made clear that she has to rebuild that trust first is kinda jarring to me. Especially since another point we made was to not rush into Permission Requesting again.
I'm no PG, but I feel that is enough for a "Permission Denied", and... well, I wasn't exactly impressed about the writing sample either.
I admit that I just don't know what would be an appropriate response, but let's say that this Permision Request didn't give me a good impression.
I'll admit I'm reading the Nazi line as "she has an unhealthy hatred of Nazis, beyond Earth culture's general, accepted baseline revulsion of them."
But aside from the content of the request, I do feel that attempting for permission just a day after the fallout from that other thread is very much too soon. I haven't actually stated this up until now, out of politeness, but more and more, it feels like zdimensia only sees this community as the means to her desired end of writing missions. The speed at which she moved from being reprimanded to attempting permission again demonstrates this. It also continues the trend of demanding information that helps her compose stories, and brushing off everything else, including our feelings and the overall well-being of the community.
So . . . I do feel that granting permission now would be inappropriate. I would want to see changed behavior from zdimensia over a long period of time before permission should even be considered.
ZD, please don't take this the wrong way when I say I think you shouldn't have asked for Permission. I'm not saying that you never should, but considering what happened recently, now is really not the best time.
Take some time off to organize your thoughts, make a better apology, and then, when things have calmed down, try again. Maybe there was a big misunderstanding where someone read something incorrectly and the whole thing spiraled out of control.
But you really hurt a lot of people recently, and asking Permission makes you seem (even more so) extremely rude and inconsiderate. It's be like if I came to your house, insulted you and the food you worked hard to make, declared your house a crime against interior decoration, and then asked to live there.
Please, take some time off and think about how you've affected everyone before asking Permission.
Huinesoron is right, the way it's phrased makes it feel like zDimensia is trying to (badly) hide a pro-Nazi statement in there by saying that hating Nazis is some sort of social necessity.
Another oddity I see is that she is basically described as "more Jewish than most Jews," yet is described as less adherent to Jewish religious practices, implying that "more Jewish" is measuring something other than religion. (Then again, it could be another "huge confusion."
That brings me to my next point- she's confusing. Whether it's the non sequiturs, the contradictory statements, or just odd things like "a huge confusion" in the post I linked to, I can't make heads or tails of many of her posts. We may be reading too deep into what she's saying- it may be just an innocent miswording (on the "socially necessary" bit, she may have just meant 'usual') or contradiction (the Jew less/more bit) we're tripping up on. (Heck, I myself am guilty of the "oddly colored" trip-up.)
I haven't seen more from her (besides that one post) since her apology that involves breaking PPC Constitution or unwritten standards, but that might just be because it wasn't that long of a time period.
Personally, I'm willing to give her some more time to prove herself. Then again, I'm a relatively new face around here, so I'm probably not a good judge of this.
I'm going to have to say that having made this request so soon without expanding on that direct request- conjoined with the previous issues- indicates a violation of the spirit of the PPC Constitution, as well as a great likelihood that she will continue to violate the letter of it.
I've always personally been vehemently opposed to people who are of racist or of other similar hate-backed discriminating attitudes being present or allowed in the PPC community.