No more.

We are not interested in seeing anything else from you at this time, nor are we interested in seeing anything else from you in the near future- and the near future does not mean 'next day or two'. The near future can be taken to mean 'several months, well past December 2014'.

I've been speaking from the point of view of someone who's only recently returned after quite sometime, but for this I am putting on the PG hat I had set away quite some time ago and telling you that Permission is denied. Stop submitting requests for Permission.

You do not have permission to write PPC missions or anything set in the shared PPC universe, and never had. Your missions were ever allowed in the first place due to not having permission. You shouldn't've been writing them in the first place. You are the first person I can name in years who's carried on like this and so readily flaunted writing without permission.

Stop writing them.

I'm gonna agree with JulyFlame on this one - Not Cool. I am not the first person to say things along these lines. Please don't turn me into some kind of ammunition.

Please, get your passive aggression and/or delusional behavior gone.

Thank you for that. I meant it more as self-deprecating humor than anything else, so don't worry. I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn't acting in any sort of official capacity.

Ever since I joined the board, I joked about how haste is bad, and my not so secret fear to have not written what I intended to say. And it’s true. Whenever I didn’t take enough time, I find that I made a mistake (fortunately mostly minor ones, which only offend my own perfectionism). So I still want to believe that zdimensia isn’t malicious, and that she genuinely tried to do right, but nearly always messed it up. I’m not qualified to diagnose this communications problem and to find a treatment, but I’m sure it’s there.

Our purpose is to improve writing, our own and other’s. But this shouldn’t get into the way of our other purpose: having fun here. Dealing with zdimensia hasn’t been fun for a long time now, and I don’t expect this to change soon.

I’m wondering whether things might have been different if some Big Sib had taken her hand early on, to guide her and to slow her down [EXPLETIVE not translated]. I sincerely considered to do this when I beta read her workshop contribution, but before I could get my thoughts together, she had already run away and posted again, and again, and again. And I’m Hieronymus the Eremite for reasons, I’m not suited for this kind of job anyway, and I don’t see anybody else who might like to do this tedious work in the near future. We’re all fed up and need time to recover. It’s an act of self-protection, not a punishment. One year seems to be appropriate.

It’s still sad that we cannot help. Sorry, zdimensia, I hope you find a way to cope with this.

HG (not cowardly lying low until the storm is over)

I've been staying out of all this, partially because I'm sort of scared of conflict and blowing up at people, and also because everyone else has been making their points so much more eloquently than I ever could, but I would like to put in my word here, for what it is worth.

I concur with the idea of a temporary, one-year-long ban for... well, basically everything everyone's already said.

-Aila

Back in zdimensia's previous Permission requests, I offered to beta for her next attempt. During that betaing process, she asked me to also take a look at a mission that she'd started working on - something that I was happy to do as I didn't see any harm in it, and she accepted that she wouldn't be able to publish it until she had Permission.

So while I haven't had much in the way of in depth discussions with her, I have interacted with her a lot. During betaing I found her polite and easy to understand, with none of the animosity etc. that has marred recent threads. For whatever reason, as Miah noted, zdimensia's behaviour/ability to communicate is noticeably different between the open Board and private chats.

Sadly my comments/advice were all about the actual writing, and not about interacting with the community - something that I meant to address, but it looks like I've ran out of time for that to do any good here. If I'd known that she was going to make a Permission Request again so soon I would have advised strongly against it.

After re-reading all of the relevant posts again, my opinion is that she has violated the Constitution, although the impression I get is more one of confusion rather than deliberate malice.

I wouldn't be prepared to support to a perma-ban at this time, but I would support a probation 'one more strike and you're out', or a temporary ban to give her time to learn how to fit in with the community here. As for the length of temporary ban, I dunno, a year seems like a very long time for a 'temporary' measure - I'm leaning more towards the 6 months end of the scale myself.

...since I've quickly learned to stay away from this user's threads after reading the subject lines, but make it hammer time.

I didn't think it was possible for a thread to turn into a worse cluster than the last one. I've been proven wrong.

Zdimensia has violated the constitution and appears to be willfully and proudly ignoring the permission process. As Phobos has noted (far more eloquently than I could), she has scarcely given apologies - her usual responses when confronted have demonstrated a level of sarcasm and vitriol that would have been on the constitution if we had thought that it was something that would come up.

In my mind, the conclusion is inescapable - Zdimensia has shown herself to be unwilling or unable to be a member of this community and should be treated as such. This is why we have article 9.

I've been worse-than-usual about lurking and not keeping up with PPC news the last few months, and so I only became aware of this issue after it was well and truly happening.

That said, I'd vote for a ban, having gone through and read (after the fact) a lot of Zdimensia's recent interactions with Boarders, whether venerable and respected or the newest of Newbies.

Individual posts can be chalked up to misunderstandings, but there being so many issues smacks of a systematic issue: from my reading of the situation, this is not someone who is acting (or appears willing to act in future) in keeping with the principles of the PPC Constitution.

I concur with others that a voluntary ban is unlikely to be effective.

Elcalion

Namely: perma-ban, enforced with The Nameless Admin's dreaded and seldom-used banhammer? Or, as some folks seem to be espousing, a voluntary some-month hiatus?

I submit that we take the voluntary hiatus off the table. My reasoning is pretty simple: unless we see some evidence that zdimensia understands the issues with her behavior, I find it very, very likely we'll just be having this conversation again, or a very, very similar one, in a few months. Why temp-ban to December 21st without at least some security that we're not going to see another permission request with the same issues on December 23rd?

Based on many previous experiences with many previous (and former/ex) PPCers (in the IRC, at least), I find it highly unlikely that a temp ban, without any evidence of an understanding on zdimensia's part on specifically what she did wrong, is going to do any more than defer the issue for a few months.

I think that zdimensia just Doesn't Get (tm) the PPC, either as a universe or as a community. They're also rather hard to communicate with, and seem to miss the point of what people are saying to them a lot.

Now, what I've pointed out above is, in my opinion, cause to deny Permission. However, zdimensia was also rather racist and didn't actually change their behavior after their apology, which seemed a bit insincere. I don't believe that the PPC is a place for racism or other -isms, and I think that zdimensia's behavior is inconsistent with the culture of the PPC. Also, zdimensia has, as others have explained downthread, attacked many other people in the community in a way that's against the spirit of the Constitution.

Because of all this, I think a temporary ban (few months to a year) is in order so zdimensia can try to better understand what we're about before participating in the PPC.

Her repeated infractions-- all in a very short period of time, mind you-- and her lack of initiative to correct her behaviour makes me suspect that she's doing this to get a rise out of us.

If this is the case, she has succeeded. If it isn't, it doesn't change the fact that zdimensia has been excessively rude and condescending to the PPC community.



I vote "ban".

I've tried to keep out of this so far, other people have been able to handle this matter far better than I could. But, with this more open invitation to speak I feel like I should.

As almost everyone else as said, this is too soon for a Permission Request considering the events down-Board.

That's not my main problem however, what is is the way that zdimensia is treating, not just the other people on the Board but the whole situation and even, dare I say it, the PPC itself. There seems to be a distinct lack of respect being shown to some of the more respectable and elder members of the PPC (no offence to anyone meant), as well as a habit for dodging and diving, making excuses and finding ways to try and squirm out from taking the full blame responsibly and doing something about it. It also seems to me that zdimensia does not care about the community or the rules of the PPC, not just the Constitution, and sees it only as a stepping stone and a place to write her own missions, whether they are on badfic or just pieces of fiction she does not like.

I fear that my words may seem to harsh, but I find myself having trouble directly transposing my thoughts on this matter.
If, and it seems it will, come to a ban then I would, and if I had any control in the matter I would restrict it to say six months to a year, if after that time zdimensia can come back and become a fully functioning member of the community who respects all others and the PPC itself then let her try for Permission in the future, if she does not return at all, then we may assume she has found somewhere else to set up base, or maybe simply given up on the idea, and if she comes back, but cannot function within the community then a full ban could come into effect. Although I do not know how easy things like this are to do on the Board.

Storme Hawk.

Because wynaut.

So far, 7 people have stated that they definitely either want zdimensia to leave willingly, be banned, or a combination of the two. These are firemagic, Miah, PoorCynic, Phobos, Desdendelle, Neshomeh, Iximaz, and Anonymouse. In addition, two posts seem to be leaning torwards this angle but I'm not sure if they count as actual votes. These are Julyflame and Darkotas.

Only one person seems to be on the "let's wait and see"/"Let her stay" angle, and even then, I'm not sure if Doctorlit was intending for that.

This is not meant to be final, as I am FAR from qualified for that at the moment. This is just a tally-up of everyone that's posted so far.

You want to know about the letter and spirit of the Constitution, and I would say she has consistently violated the letter of Articles 1 and 25. Add to that potentially violating the spirit of Articles 2, 4, 6, 11, and 24. However, that isn't even the biggest problem for me. My biggest problem is the lack of respect for the community and the members thereof. To call Neshomeh, July, and others 'liars' for making completely valid points is unacceptable.

We have been more than patient enough. When we have asked for apologies, we have received excuses, passive-aggressive sarcasm, and outright vitriol. Everything is a "misunderstanding". The apologies are not for her behavior, but how we reacted to it. She has never taken any responsibility for her behavior. The non-sequiturs, of which there were many, were bizarre and sometimes offensive.

I'm out of patience. We did the best that we could, and I am extremely proud of the community as a whole for trying far longer than I personally would have.

I will vote in favor of a ban, if it is on the table when the dust settles here.

-Phobos

I agree with what's been said by the others. ZDimensia doesn't seem to listen to the other Boarders without a great deal of fuss. Moreover it looks rather like they've set themselves as the victim here, who's being bullied by a nasty community. They've also made a few statements that just ping me as being ableist - for instance, the whole epileptics thing. And just in general, I find it very hard to parse what they're saying.

I've talked to Zdimensia quite a lot on the IRC. Sometimes, especially with a small crowd, she makes perfect sense, and doesn't say chat-killing or kick-worthy things. It's kind of nice to have another older person to talk to, and both our husbands are into homebrewing, so there is another common factor. I'm just saying this, because I am not trying to be mean when I say the rest. I have had some good experiences with her (which maybe no one else can say).

I don't like saying this, because I never had the guts to say it to her, bluntly, in chat (and I should have), but I really feel like she does not get the basic levels of the PPC. Aside from the reasons everyone else has mentioned (which are good reasons. Asking for Permission right after the sort of debacle that is the last thread is Not Cool.) I don't think she gets what is bad fic and what is not.

Several times she has linked fics that I think she was saying she wanted to spork (that confusing way of saying things comes up in IRC at times, too) that were good fics. Excellent writing, good plot, according to her (because I don't know the continuum) good characterization. The only thing against it was that it was AU (a good one, but AU), or it was a shipfic, or there was the transdimensional jump (which was handled way too well to spork. That was the only charge). I don't think there was any understanding achieved between the two of us when I said that not all AUs are automatically badfic, and not all shipfics are automatically AU.

So aside from everything else, if a person can't understand the difference between badfic and goodfic and that not all of an entire class of fics are automatically bad then I really wouldn't want them to have Permission. I think that goes deeper than any other writing* issue that's been brought up.

*I've got nothing of substance to add on the other issues, they've been covered very well, and I agree with what has been said. I agree that at this point that at least a voluntary separation for a time would be best.

Replies to everyone are mixed up in here by subject, apologies if I miss one.

First off, yes, it seems to be people reading things incorrectly. I also feel that with all that screaming about "you're ignoring the point" you were also ignoring my points. Some of them points that I've been making for awhile. More about that in a fresh reply below.


As far as putting in another permission request. This is me trying to soothe tempers by actually trying to work with you. I refuse to lose ideas or let rewrites fester in the meantime. Either give me permission or ignore that detail. All I ask is no one jump down my throat when I ask for betas and I'll shut up about it until December or longer. (I'm working with a beta now and it's really helping.) Also more about that in the fresh reply.


About not replying to the direct request, it was because I already answered it two hours and eight hour previous. I had shown I got it, no need to ask more questions. http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?id=199610;article=262566 http://disc.yourwebapps.com/discussion.cgi?disc=199610;article=262445;title=PPC%20Posting%20Board


I wasn't making non-sequiters, so therefore I had to assume that non-sequiter had another meaning. And I wasn't trying to insult Des or anyone else. I apologize for things that did look like insults.

***

Should I not apologize for having that attitude in the first place? I promise to work on it, and shutting up about it now.


I delayed my apology to think about it, hence people making multiple demands. I'm sorry for that too.

***

I did research about Jews and lapsed Jews, I simply cannot find all of the pages anymore. There were many different interpretations of what people do and do not hold onto and Kim is an amalgam of that. (Still celebrating holidays but in shortened form, some things about keeping Kosher in the home but eating bacon in restaurants, even some rabbinical laws.) I suppose I could drop most of that from her character.


Doctorlit got it right. "Socially necessary hatred of Nazis" is having the passion to remember what they did and work towards it not happening again, (as opposed to just not caring or letting the memory fade,) up to hating the laws that prevent taking certain measures. Kim's hatred is to the point where she wants to go beyond simple illegality and into disproportionate retribution. The safest way to express this is that she can convince a Flower that sending her into "Der Jude That Got Away" would result in completely the wrong sort of paperwork. (In contrast to the Paddlebrains mission with eunich!Snape and Remus and she got neuralyzed afterward.) I can remove that from her profile to give her the assumed measure of hatred.

As other people have said before, zdimensia's apology was not only extracted with the maximum amount of difficulty but lacks any sort of indication that she is willing to change. That idea was only enforced for me when I saw this most recent request for permission. To ask now? After everything that just occurred? With no time taken for heads to cool or for self-introspection? Seriously?

That right there is indicative of the kind of kind of disrespect and self-centeredness she has demonstrated that concerns me to no end. She has repeatedly and directly insulted several PPC members (and indirectly insulted pretty much all of us) and implied that the legitimate complaints levied against her are just some sort of hazing ritual. Her posts try to paint her as a victim, bullied and mistreated by we unkind denizens of the Board.

I wish I had spoken up about this earlier. I SHOULD have spoken up about this earlier. I'm vaguely ashamed that it took me this long. But I'm speaking now, and I say that zdimensia has no place in this community. I support a ban.

After the racism problem, the non-sequiturs, the insulting people and glossing over it... the obvious lack of research into lapsed Jews (because the I'm-not-sure-I-believe-but-I-still-eat-Kosher type don't behave that way) and the Nazi comment - because, damn, people have very, very, very good reasons to hate the Nazis (Holocaust, anyone?) - make me feel she's a bit out of touch with what's acceptable and what's not here.
I agree with Nesh. This isn't the place for Dimensia.

An apology is nothing without a serious commitment to change behind it. To use an expression from A Song of Ice and Fire, words are wind. I've seen the words "I'm sorry," but I've seen no evidence that zdimensia is actually committed to backing up those words with an effort to improve her attitudes and behavior.

Like everyone so far, I'm amazed that she's asking for Permission again at this time. To me, on top of everything that happened down-Board, it seems to show a worrying lack of situational awareness at the very least. At worst, it shows a complete disregard for anything but getting what she wants, which, in my mind, would violate the spirit of the Constitution.

I am not willing to share the fictional PPC universe with zdimensia at this time. I'm also extremely tired of being personally and "professionally" (? is "PG" a profession?) disrespected and ignored. While I don't like resorting to banning, I feel strongly that any sort of probation won't work, since she's shown herself perfectly willing to ignore the rules and do what she wants anyway and hasn't expressed any intent to change. So, to prevent any further disruptions to normal Board activities, I think it's time for zdimensia to leave. Preferably of her own free will and temporarily, as a sign of contrition and until she can get to a more stable place in her life, but with actual banning if necessary.

~Neshomeh

I can't say if she behaved in the wrong way since the apology because... well, this request was one of the first things she posted after the apology.

The fact that she went straight for Permission again, for which the community's trust is a requirement, after we made clear that she has to rebuild that trust first is kinda jarring to me. Especially since another point we made was to not rush into Permission Requesting again.

I'm no PG, but I feel that is enough for a "Permission Denied", and... well, I wasn't exactly impressed about the writing sample either.


I admit that I just don't know what would be an appropriate response, but let's say that this Permision Request didn't give me a good impression.

I'll admit I'm reading the Nazi line as "she has an unhealthy hatred of Nazis, beyond Earth culture's general, accepted baseline revulsion of them."

But aside from the content of the request, I do feel that attempting for permission just a day after the fallout from that other thread is very much too soon. I haven't actually stated this up until now, out of politeness, but more and more, it feels like zdimensia only sees this community as the means to her desired end of writing missions. The speed at which she moved from being reprimanded to attempting permission again demonstrates this. It also continues the trend of demanding information that helps her compose stories, and brushing off everything else, including our feelings and the overall well-being of the community.

So . . . I do feel that granting permission now would be inappropriate. I would want to see changed behavior from zdimensia over a long period of time before permission should even be considered.

ZD, please don't take this the wrong way when I say I think you shouldn't have asked for Permission. I'm not saying that you never should, but considering what happened recently, now is really not the best time.

Take some time off to organize your thoughts, make a better apology, and then, when things have calmed down, try again. Maybe there was a big misunderstanding where someone read something incorrectly and the whole thing spiraled out of control.

But you really hurt a lot of people recently, and asking Permission makes you seem (even more so) extremely rude and inconsiderate. It's be like if I came to your house, insulted you and the food you worked hard to make, declared your house a crime against interior decoration, and then asked to live there.

Please, take some time off and think about how you've affected everyone before asking Permission.

Huinesoron is right, the way it's phrased makes it feel like zDimensia is trying to (badly) hide a pro-Nazi statement in there by saying that hating Nazis is some sort of social necessity.

Another oddity I see is that she is basically described as "more Jewish than most Jews," yet is described as less adherent to Jewish religious practices, implying that "more Jewish" is measuring something other than religion. (Then again, it could be another "huge confusion."

That brings me to my next point- she's confusing. Whether it's the non sequiturs, the contradictory statements, or just odd things like "a huge confusion" in the post I linked to, I can't make heads or tails of many of her posts. We may be reading too deep into what she's saying- it may be just an innocent miswording (on the "socially necessary" bit, she may have just meant 'usual') or contradiction (the Jew less/more bit) we're tripping up on. (Heck, I myself am guilty of the "oddly colored" trip-up.)

I haven't seen more from her (besides that one post) since her apology that involves breaking PPC Constitution or unwritten standards, but that might just be because it wasn't that long of a time period.

Personally, I'm willing to give her some more time to prove herself. Then again, I'm a relatively new face around here, so I'm probably not a good judge of this.

I'm going to have to say that having made this request so soon without expanding on that direct request- conjoined with the previous issues- indicates a violation of the spirit of the PPC Constitution, as well as a great likelihood that she will continue to violate the letter of it.

I've always personally been vehemently opposed to people who are of racist or of other similar hate-backed discriminating attitudes being present or allowed in the PPC community.