We stand corrected.

Subject: We stand corrected.
Author: Sevenswans
Posted on: 2012-12-10 22:43:00 UTC

And what Nesh said - she might be lots of fun working in medical as some sort of pre-college interning experience.

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Thinking of going for permission, any advice for Ava? by meow139 on 2012-12-10 01:31:00 UTC Reply

I'm thinking of going for permission eventually, and I've been trying to come up with two good, well-developed agents. I have one agent who I think is pretty good, OC wise, but as for Ava.... I'm worried that Ava may be a bit too sue-ish. I don't know if this is against the rules, but I just want to hear any suggestions that anyone might have for making Ava a better character.

Name: Ava Brooks (Full Name: Ava Mary Brooks)

Physical Appearance: Ava is of average weight. She has shoulder length copper ringlets. Big brown eyes, full-ish lips She's tall. She is fifteen years old. She wears glasses in order to read.

Personality: Ava is an optimist, very positive. She's loyal and makes friends easily. She's of average intelligence. She can be a bit vain, sort of self centered. She can be selfish and very dramatic. Over-reacts VERY easily, hates getting dirty. She wasn't to be a doctor, loves to read, does ballet and writes as a film critic in her school paper. She's a potterhead, loves LOTR and has read Twilight as part of a study on Mary Sues, and she hates it. Her favorite color is pink ("I can't help it that the Sues love it, it's a nice color!" ~ Ava) Glitter annoys her.

Back story: She joined the PPC because her cousin, Katie, is a DMS agent, who said she could join when she turned fifteen. Ava is from the real world, Australia, and she has two older brothers and two little sisters.

Is Ava sue-ish? If so, how can I improve. I don't want to change her character entirely, but anything anyone can advise?

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She WANTS to be a doctor... by meow139 on 2012-12-10 22:26:00 UTC Reply

That was a stupid typo. Don't worry, I plan to have betas when I actually write. Ugh.

We stand corrected. by Sevenswans on 2012-12-10 22:43:00 UTC Reply

And what Nesh said - she might be lots of fun working in medical as some sort of pre-college interning experience.

Hmm... by meow139 on 2012-12-10 22:56:00 UTC Reply

I do sort of like that idea. Maybe she could be a frequent visitor to medical, maybe even to the point of transferring if Mary Sues doesn't work out, not quite sure. But that certainly is an idea, would be some nice development, and I would like that a lot.

Small note. by Neshomeh on 2012-12-10 16:52:00 UTC Reply

The description "copper ringlets" smells a bit purple to me, as opposed to "curly red hair" or something like that. It's just one description, and not a problem by itself, but lavish, overblown catalogs of the OC's appearance is a writing feature commonly associated with Sues. They have orbs where there should be eyes; they have waterfalls where there ought to be hair; they have rosebuds where lips should be; they have porcelain instead of skin; etc. Figurative language is fine now and then, but if it comes up all the time, it adds up to some very impractical and inhuman-looking characters. So, just be very selective about where you use it. {= )

I'm also confused about the part where she "wasn't to be a doctor." Did you mean "wants to be a doctor"? If not, why is this important? If so, how come she joins the PPC instead of going to college to study medicine? Is she signing up for Medical, perhaps? We haven't had too many stories set there, and definitely not from a staff member's point of view, so that could be fun.

~Neshomeh

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Maybe this is a cultural thing? by Huinesoron on 2012-12-11 17:35:00 UTC Reply

Or maybe you just span off into a bit of unrelated advice... but 'copper ringlets' isn't really figurative language. Ringlets are a specific type of curls, and copper is a specific shade of red.

I can see that if it was mentioned every time the hair was described, 'copper ringlets' or, say, 'golden tresses' would get irritating - but then, so would 'blonde waves', 'mousey curls' or 'straight black hair'.

Agent Remora stood in her Response Centre, running her fingers through her straight black hair. "What's this all about, then?" she murmured.

The console didn't answer. Remora tugged on a lock of her straight black hair thoughtfully. "Well, maybe I should get someone from DoSAT down," she mused. She shook her head rapidly, her straight black hair flying out. "No, not after the Incident. Oh, well."

She reached down to tap the 'off' button - and received a massive electric shock which made her straight black hair stand on end. "Owwww..." she muttered.

It doesn't matter whether I say 'generic fibrous head-covering' or 'luscious crystal-golden waterfall', that was a badly-written scene. But 'straight black hair' isn't a bad phrase in and of itself.

Anyway, straying from the point. I don't see anything wrong with the description 'copper ringlets', provided the author doesn't fall in love with it and use it every other paragraph.

hS

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Euuch. No danger there. by meow139 on 2012-12-11 21:01:00 UTC Reply

So much... purple... prose... overload... Call... Paramedics... *dies*

No way would I overuse that. There are a billion other ways to describe 'copper ringlets' in a way that seems non-sueish.

Example: Generic Girl looked at her friend nervously. "Generic Best Friend, do you really think that I need a makeover?"

Generic Best Friend nodded. "Certainly, Generic Girl. You smell like curdled milk, your eyes are so bloodshot that you would think you put drops of vinegar in them each morning, and your hair looks like you dye it with molten pennies. And honestly, have you never heard of a toothbrush?!" /end

So, yeah, copper ringlets wouldn't be that hard to change. :)

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I did say it was fine by itself, guys. by Neshomeh on 2012-12-12 03:38:00 UTC Reply

It's just that my first thought on reading it was particularly shiny, sleek, metallic, and styled. On the heels of this was my second thought, which was small rings of actual copper instead of hair. But yes, it's entirely possible that it's a cultural thing, or maybe I'm the only person on the planet that thinks that way, even. In any case, Meow, you don't have to expunge the words "copper" and "ringlets" from your vocabulary on my account. {= P

~Neshomeh

I figured as much. by Huinesoron on 2012-12-12 18:36:00 UTC Reply

It sounds like we have different exposure to the word 'ringlets'. Without checking... no, scratch that, I will check.

Wikipedia claims the style dates back to roughly the burning of the Temple in Jerusalem (AD 70), and has wandered around ever since. For the most part, it seems to evoke a historical look - or a 'stuck-up little girl' appearance, probably because of the historical associations.

So my suspicion is that you and I simply have different enough fields of reading that I've come across the word a fair number of times, and you haven't as much. So I think of it as a normal description, and you see it as unusual. Both of us are right - we're just right in different contexts.

As to which context the PPC fits into, I think the only reasonable way to determine that is a duel to the deaf. Whoever screams loudest wins.

... or we could just not. :P

hS

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Hehe. I'd lose that duel. by Neshomeh on 2012-12-12 20:12:00 UTC Reply

People sometimes have trouble hearing me even when I'm making an effort to speak up.

But yeah, that makes sense. I didn't know it was a specific style, and the one in the picture is not something I'd immediately think of for a modern character.

Also, I forgot to add that I am suspicious of metallic hair colors in general, and that plays into it. This could be a matter of different exposure, too, but my experience has been that it's mostly Sues that end up with golden tresses or silver waterfalls or whathaveyou, and the metallics do seem to go hand in hand with the more flowery language. I don't know that I've ever seen a description of straight gold hair in a ponytail, for instance. *shrug*

~Neshomeh

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Just have Phobos as your second. :D (nm) by VixenMage on 2012-12-13 00:15:00 UTC Reply
On Golden Hair. by Huinesoron on 2012-12-12 21:17:00 UTC Reply

I actually have at least one golden-haired (or, due to the vagaries of very old files, usually 'golden haired') semi-protagonist floating around (see 'Messiah Reborn' if you're desperately interested in extremely old work)... I've just checked, and apparently my descriptions needed a lot of work, since in the six references to her hair being golden, it only gets any further description once - 'streaming behind me' or somesuch.

hS

(PS: Er, wow. That is actually a very clumsily-written story. Owell! as my son would say. ~hS)

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Hmmm... by Sevenswans on 2012-12-10 14:51:00 UTC Reply

Springing off the previous discussion about Ava, it's possible that making her traits more specific will help. Say, she's loyal to her family, can be a bit vain and selfish, and makes friendly acquiantances easily, but might not have them as really good friends due to the aforementioned vanity and selfishness that shows up.

As far as her cousin, there are possible ways that you could play that (her idolizing her cousin and being naive to what the job actually entails, more than the cousin actively encouraging her, or possibly that her older cousin introduced her to fanfiction and mary sues before she joined the PPC, igniting a hatred of sues or something,) but as far as the rest of the family, I'd like to know how having the siblings affects her personality and daily life. For example, being the middle child might reinforce the vain and selfish aspects, because she's looking for more attention. Or perhaps the siblings are why she can affect a cheerful demeanor and get along with people at a very basic acquaintance-type level without having any deeper friendship.

I have no idea why not wanting to be a doctor was on there. Does someone expect that of her? Was that something she previously wanted before she realized how much she hates messes? (I'm also not sure why her activities are listed under personality, but that's just a formatting nitpick.)

It might be interesting if she thinks a lot of the PPCing like she would watching and critiquing a film, and then learns otherwise. Also, given that she's from world one, it might be convenient to have her be an intern so she wouldn't miss too much real world and school, like everyone else said.

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Springing off hermione-of-vulcan's post: by Lily Winterwood on 2012-12-10 07:15:00 UTC Reply

I'm also rather iffy on how someone self-centered and vain can make friends easily, unless she's the sort of popular queen bee cheerleader-type of character who has an army of backstabbing 'friends' and acquaintances. And loyalty usually calls for caring for more than the self, so... yeah, selfish might contradict that.

I'd prefer to see a scenario written out before making any calls, but yeah, I can definitely see it going either way from here. I have an Agent who hates getting dirty, too, but I purposefully paired her with a slob for a partner because it's funnier that way.

I didn't know there was an age requirement for the PPC, to be honest, and having a relative already in the PPC hearkens a little too much towards Suedom - of course, it's fine to have siblings I suppose, but given that the PPC isn't exactly the Multiverse's best workplace, I find Katie encouraging her sister to join a bit questionable.

Have you considered letting her already be at the PPC as an intern? Cale Serfe, the other intern that I know of, is Ava's age. It's a way for her to get some mission experience with other Agent teams and to see exactly what she's getting into.

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On friends- by meow139 on 2012-12-10 22:54:00 UTC Reply

She is selfish to a degree, like not "backstabbing jerk" selfish, but more to an annoying level. I kind of meant that she was a friendly person, very talkative (almost to the point of being annoying). She has a few CLOSE friends, and those are the ones that can deal with her- those are who she is loyal to, a really good friend underneath it all. She's vain about her looks, never misses the opportunity to look in the mirror, she's bossy and stuff, she likes to be the center of attention. But she isn't a mean person, and has a lot of friends, just not super close ones.

It's one thing to say something to defend the character, by Lily Winterwood on 2012-12-11 00:02:00 UTC Reply

and another to prove it through writing.

So I really look forward to seeing what you'll do with Ava story-wise; defending her in your own words really doesn't cut it out for me, sorry.

I intend to... by meow139 on 2012-12-11 00:22:00 UTC Reply

Prove that Ava is really a good character through my writing. I just hope that I'm good enough to hold up to PPC standards. :)

More regarding friends. by Desdendelle on 2012-12-11 23:02:00 UTC Reply

I can see how being selfish, loyal, and friendly at the same is possible. Take RL!me for example. I am, at a very base level, a very, very, very selfish person. If I'd act on instinct I'll just do what I want. However, I don't act on instinct. I tend to behave politely toward other people, even in a friendly way, because I believe I can't really expect other people to behave that way toward me if I don't behave that way toward them first. Add to that my tendency to stick to my friends through whatever bad things they go through, and you get a selfish but friendly and loyal person.

A contrast to this. by Huinesoron on 2012-12-12 14:50:00 UTC Reply

I can see your point about selfish-loyal-friendly being possible. My main problem is with a different part of meow's description:

She's vain about her looks, never misses the opportunity to look in the mirror, she's bossy and stuff, she likes to be the center of attention.

I find it hard to believe 'she's bossy and stuff' can be the same person as 'has a lot of friends'. Okay, it can happen - but those characters (and real people) are nearly always presented as antagonists.

The other half of this problem is that it feels a bit like a How Can I Make Sure My Character Isn't A Sue.

Lacksidacksical frowned at her screen. "Well, that's a good start," she murmured, "but what if people think Agent Remora is a Sue? I mean, she's friendly, cheerful, chatty... tends to the dramatic, and has that lovely straight black hair... hmm."

Lacksi tapped out a few more lines of description - more as something to do than because they were worth writing - and then beamed as a thought struck her. "Flaws!" she exclaimed. "Remora needs flaws! Now, what's a flaw...?"

She thought back over the PPC stories she'd read, and nodded firmly. "Liking pink," she decided. "And, let's see, she can be vain - that's a good flaw - and, ooh! Bossy!"

And so Lacksi crafted Agent Remora, blissfully unaware that her new agent had a completely contradictory personality...

(Note: Lacksidacksical is my Archetypical Newbie Boarder. She's a parody of everyone, not anyone in specific)

hS

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Age requirement ... by Antigone68104 on 2012-12-10 12:45:00 UTC Reply

I'm not finding it on a quick wiki-scan, but I seem to recall an article saying that the Flowers aren't keen on sending children/young teens on assassination missions. (Of course, the article might have been changed.)

I suppose it comes down to which division Ava was going into. A fifteen-year old Intel agent should be fine, but DMS or DBS might raise whatever the Flowers have as eyebrows.

There isn't an age requirement, as such. by Neshomeh on 2012-12-10 16:31:00 UTC Reply

It's just that we (and by extension, HQ) don't get as many younger teens. There HAVE been younger agents, though, when we do get them—and they have the required writing chops. That's really what sets the bar, since older teens and tweens are more likely to have more writing experience, capabilities, and maturity. That's only most of the time, though. I think the youngest PPCer ever was ten or eleven, both in-universe and out. And this is part of the reason we insist on keeping the Board family-friendly. {= )

In any case, being fifteen wouldn't be an issue according to HQ. I don't think the Flowers actually care how old their employees are as long as they can get the job done. It sounded like it was Ava's cousin setting that requirement rather than them. I could easily see an older family member who's already an agent going "Huh, this is actually kinda dangerous. Cousin, I know you want to join, but I really think you should wait."

~Neshomeh

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Throwing my two cents in. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-12-11 07:23:00 UTC Reply

AFAIK, the Flowers do have a bar - something around 15, methinks, so Ava is fine.

However, as the PPC is chronically understaffed, they are more than willing to let younger people become Agents if they look mature enough.

In fact, my own Agents are an example of what Nesh said, as they all have an apparent age rather trycky to calculate... I even gave up entirely with Corolla.

Obviously, don't mention recruitig ages in front of Agent!Sergio Turbo. He's already on bad terms with the Marquis, no need to add another reason...

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Well, uh, no they don't. by Huinesoron on 2012-12-11 09:22:00 UTC Reply

Ella Darcy was ten, Elanor Laison was fourteen, and Constance Sims was thirteen. Constance went straight into the DMS, as well.

hS

Oh, I see. by Sergio Turbo on 2012-12-11 13:16:00 UTC Reply

... Have to investigate where I read that, if it isn't that way.

Time's funky in HQ anyway. by Calista on 2012-12-11 06:11:00 UTC Reply

That fifteen-year-old agent could be any age, subjectively.

Maybe they're a bit character rescued from badfic, and they're actually only a couple of weeks old.

Or maybe they've spent so long in various continua that they're actually, subjectively, a couple hundred years old.0

Maybe they really are fifteen, but their species matures at eight. Or their world's year is equivalent to two Earth years. Or they're fifteen and from a world where fifteen-year-olds have been adults for years. Or they're simply mature enough to deal with it for some other reason, like being from a continuum where you grow up fast or not at all. Maybe they're even from a continuum where time isn't linear, either due to rampant temporal distortions or because the continuum doesn't have time as we know it.

Age limits wouldn't make any sense in-world because age itself doesn't make much sense. World One agents tend to have ages at all, but theirs can be totally unrelated to how much time they have subjectively experienced. And a badfic recruit could have been written to be any age at all.

If you're not a Nursery kid, you're probably a potential agent as far as the Flowers are concerned.

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Well, I joined at 12... by Lily Winterwood on 2012-12-10 23:59:00 UTC Reply

Although I've been writing fanfics since 9, and I first heard of the PPC when I was 10, more or less.

(You're lucky I waited 2 years before actually joining because wow I sucked back then)
Exactly the case. by meow139 on 2012-12-10 22:43:00 UTC Reply

Ava's partner will actually be an older agent, who could probably help her out. Casey Smith was a bad slash agent for about a year before switching to DMS, and has been working there for around six months.I figured that Casey, being older than Ava (19, almost 20)and more experienced on missions, could help her out a bit.

Katie, Ava's cousin, only let her join at that age because of Ava's CONSTANT pestering. Ava hates Mary Sues with a passion, and would get the job done, albeit with some moaning about work hours, stupid sues, etc.

It all dependsÂ… by hermione of vulcan on 2012-12-10 03:13:00 UTC Reply

…on how you write her. The character profile seems balanced: she does have flaws. The only discrepancy I can see is a tendency to be self-centered while making friends easily.
So it all comes down to how you write her, because characters can have flaws and still be Sues. Bella Swan's clumsiness is a good example. It could be a flaw, but if I remember correctly all it does is allow her to trip in Edward's arms. As long as Ava's flaws are shown to actually be hinderances, then she won't be Sue-y. This has to do with the scenarios you put her in. If she hates getting dirty, and she always gets missions where she stays clean, that would be Sue-y (and also against all the PPC ideas of putting the agents into what will annoy them the most, e.g. Jay and Acacia beng sent into fics where Elrond and Boromir were OOC).
I should probably tell you that I do not have Permission myself. Good luck!

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