/mumblegrumble/

Subject: /mumblegrumble/
Author: DawnFire
Posted on: 2016-12-01 17:26:00 UTC

Well.

I mean, yeah, they're currently *used* to refer to the same thing, particularly in American English (I'm pretty sure no Hebrew-speaking Israeli would use it). I'll even catch myself saying 'menorah' sometimes. So, going by the current vernacular--that's perfectly fine.

The only thing is, well, technically they aren't meant to be two words for the same thing. A menorah, like the one that stood in the Temple two thousand years ago, has seven branches. A chanukiah, on the other hand, is what we use today and has nine--to symbolize the eight days the one jug of oil in the Chanukah story burned for (eight branches plus one shammash or helper candle, which is used to light the others; the menorah has six plus one shammash. If you're familiar with the Shammes or whatever the name ended up being for the caretaker of a synagogue in Eastern Europe, it's the same word). So, I have to add my religious/Jewish Studies major protest that they're actually *not* the same thing, even though the current use is to conflate them.

So...ach. Do what you like. Just, y'know, be aware that 'chanukiah' isn't just the Hebrew equivalent (both words are Hebrew)--it's actually the correct word for the currently used thing. But yeah, for understanding purposes, the vernacular should probably be used...

~DF

PS: "Menorah" probably comes from "ner", candle, or "or", light. "Chanukiah", well, I'm guessing it's meant to be 'this is a candelabra specific to Chanukah and referring to the Chanukah story so we're calling it a chanukiah'. And now I'm wondering how old that word is and what Hillel and Shammai called the Chanukah candle-holder in the Talmud when they were disagreeing over which direction the candles should be lit from...Anyway, I should go back to Yiddish in Canada now. Carry on. ~DF

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Now accepting suggestions for CAHQ: The Holiday Edition! by Neshomeh on 2016-12-01 05:25:00 UTC Reply

This deck is actually called "The Inevitable Holiday Edition," but it wouldn't all fit in the subject line.

Since today was a rather cold day after an oddly warm one, and there was some precipitation that almost might have been snow, I was hit with inspiration for this new themed deck. Now I've come about as far as I can on my own in one night, though, so I turn to you all for help. I'd especially love some input from people who celebrate holidays other than Christmas, because other than the one card about lamp oil, I'm pitifully short on ideas that aren't Christmas-related or just generic.

Do try to keep it PPC- and fanfic-related, but the odd fandom reference works, too, especially if it crops up a lot in badfic (e.g. the Yule Ball) or is unique (e.g. the Hogfather, Snoggletog). And anything that's just plain funny, of course. {= ) Oh, and since this is the Board, please WARN US if you're gonna post anything that's NSFW.

I don't promise to use everything, and I do promise to tweak ideas for optimal CAH grammar if need be.

Thanks, and have fun!

~Neshomeh

I have an idea for one of the main decks: by Mattman The Comet on 2016-12-09 17:27:00 UTC Reply

"Running Laps in an Escher Room" A White card that any Drill Sergeant/Fitness Instructor (Perhaps Skarm's Whitney?) had to have utilize a some point.

Oh hey, I just saw this. by Neshomeh on 2016-12-13 20:22:00 UTC Reply

That sounds mildly dangerous, and yet funny. I like it! ^_^

~Neshomeh

Here you go. (NSFW) by GlarnBoudin on 2016-12-03 03:23:00 UTC Reply

Kneeing an elf in the balls.

Boiling a man alive in a comically large glass of eggnog.

The Grinch and the Krampus teaming up to burn down Whoville and piss on the ashes.

Celebrating Oktoberfest with Jolly Old Saint Nick.

Taking the entirety of a 3-foot-long novelty candy cane inside yourself.

Christmas decorations out in the middle of goddamn October.

Reindeer sex games.

Teabagging Rudolph's cold, dead corpse.

Bludgeoning someone's skull in with a small piece of fruitcake.

Lacing Santa's cookies with rat poison.

Herschel the Hanukkah Golem.

Firing a rifle willy-nilly into the air while balls-deep in a reindeer mare and rocketing above the Chicago skyline at over twice the speed limit and over three times the legal BAC aboard a stolen sleigh.

Dancing on the graves of a thousand slaughtered elf children.

Writing your name in the snow.

Candy cane-striped condoms.

The Mistletoe, head of Holiday Affairs.

Um. Hrm. by Neshomeh on 2016-12-03 18:04:00 UTC Reply

So, most of those are pretty mean. That would be fine for CAH in general, but also, none of them have anything at all inherently to do with the PPC. Iiii... think I'm gonna pass. {= /

However, a reminder to everyone: You can always build your own deck. You can log in to Cardcast using your Google account, if you have one, and I think your Facebook account, and possibly some other things, too. You're only slaves to my whims if I'm the game host. {= )

~Neshomeh

Okay, who's up for a game? {= D by Neshomeh on 2016-12-03 02:40:00 UTC Reply

Link: http://pyx-3.pretendyoure.xyz/zy/game.jsp#game=166
Password: HOLLYJOLLY

As always, CAH is NSFW.

I've thrown in the three holiday packs on Xyzzy. I have no idea what's in them. We'll see how it goes. {= )

Suggestions are still (always!) open.

~Neshomeh
A few Black Cards of my own. by Storme Hawk on 2016-12-02 22:47:00 UTC Reply

Because I can't think of that many good ones.

_____ replaced baby Jesus in this years PPC nativity.
What were the gifts given by the Wise Men this year at the PPC nativity?
What inappropriate item did Luxury put on her Christingle this year?
What stopped Apollo from observing Vigil on Christmas Eve>

Storme

Yay, black cards! by Neshomeh on 2016-12-03 02:01:00 UTC Reply

Those are always harder to come up with. I seem to be maintaining a fairly consistent 1:2 ratio of black cards to white cards, though. Who knows why.

Today I learned what a Christingle is. {= ) I dunno if I'm comfortable characterizing Lux as following that practice (and therefore being Christian), but on the other hand, it certainly does have a suggestive shape that I reckon she'd find appealing for its own sake. *eg*

~Neshomeh is learning a lot in this thread.

TBH It could be anyone. by Storme Hawk on 2016-12-03 02:17:00 UTC Reply

Lux was just the first agent to pop into my head when I was thinking it up. Or you could change it to:

What inappropriate item was found on a Christingle in the cafeteria?

Although the exact location could be changed (ie 'outside my RC', 'outside the SO's office' or something like that)

My own suggestions. (Somewhat NSFW) by PoorCynic on 2016-12-01 19:47:00 UTC Reply

White Cards
Sloppy, drunken mistletoe-inspired makeouts.
The Ghost of Christmas In July.
An eggnog-and-Bleepka enema.
The annual Bad Slash Cheesecake/Beefcake Advent Calendar photo shoot.
Sexy Santa Claus cosplay.
Masturbating at the thought of going on a mission.
Tiny Tim-chan.
Using Mary Sue guts instead of tree ornaments.
Getting a blowjob when the clock strikes midnight on New Year's Eve.

Black Cards
My OTP is Santa Claus/_______.
_______ will be in the role of Ebenezer Scrooge in the PPC holiday play this year.
A _______? You'll shoot your eye out!
What's the secret ingredient in my Christmas cookies? Why, it's _______!
And here are some of mine. (Warning: some NSFW) by SkarmorySilver on 2016-12-01 17:59:00 UTC Reply

White cards:
- Falchion's molted down feathers being used as tinsel.
- Onscreen disembowelment.
- A paleontologically accurate Quetzalcoatlus.
- Sarah Squall getting her cape snagged on a jet turbine.
- Cupid Carmine pleasuring himself with a miniature Christmas tree.
- Backslash in an ugly holiday sweater.
- Impale a Suvian with a giant Christmas ornaments.
- Jelsa.
- Screenwriters who can't do math.
- Tickle torture.
- Violet Parr being turned into a Tyrannosaurus rex.
- Don't. Period.
- Feathered raptors with laser cannons on their heads.
- Squid Icarus.
- RELEASE THE KRAKEN!
- Lapis' poker friends.
- Suta and Tianlong having giant reptilian intercourse.
- Leaving the fountain without a relic.
- Fafnir's Winter Wonderland.
- In-game purchases.
- Being one-shot by Loki's ultimate.
- Take a Header to the crotch.
- Evangeline von Lilith.
- Dora the Explorer sprouting tentacles from every single orifice.
- Dumb Ways to Die.
- Old Man Henderson.

Black cards:
- The first trend of badfic that's such a pain to me:
- Skinny people can do this for you!
- What does the latest movie adaptation of a video game include?
- One of Falchion's previous incarnations was __.
- What did __ bring to this year's Gift Exchange? __.
- Who did Lapis bring in to save Chakkik from _? _.
- "MUCKLE DAMRED CULTI 'AIR EH NAMBLIES BE KEEPIN' ME _!?!?"
- This holiday season, join __ and ___ as they venture into the depths of the PPC HQ in search of __!
- I wish they stopped nerfing __ with every single patch update!
- What did you put at the top of this year's Christmas tree?
- Who is the newest president of the United States, as determined by this year's election results?
- __: The Obligatory Christmas Special
- If you're _, you __. It's what you do.

Presented without context: (somewhat NSFW) by SkarmorySilver on 2016-12-03 03:52:00 UTC Reply
I have an important question. by Neshomeh on 2016-12-02 04:38:00 UTC Reply

Regarding the miniature Christmas tree... are we talking something like

Awful Mental Image A:

Awful Mental Image B:

or Awful Mental Image C:

'Cause I can just about wrap my head around C, but even then... uh... pointy bits?! O.o;

~Neshomeh

Any one of them could work, actually. by SkarmorySilver on 2016-12-02 04:49:00 UTC Reply

I never said it would be used in THAT way, though. That was one of those cards whose image is, and I quote, "best left to your imagination." X'D

No, hold on, I can't let this go. {X D (NSFB) by Neshomeh on 2016-12-02 05:04:00 UTC Reply

SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN SAVE YOUR BRAIN

As far as Phobos and I can determine, the BEST possible scenario here is that he's dry-humping the thing, hopefully with clothes on, because I do not want to contemplate the rash that would result otherwise.

Besides that, assuming Cupid has standard male anatomy, there's basically just the butt or ... *shudder* ... the urethra?

I can hear the Department of Bad Slash shouting NOT THERE! from my apartment, is what I'm saying. {X D

~Neshomeh

Relax, he's not THAT stupid. (NSFW) by SkarmorySilver on 2016-12-02 17:17:00 UTC Reply

I'm pretty sure there isn't any tree small enough to fit in... there... let alone... THERE. *cringes* And he wouldn't even try, even while drunk on five bottles of eggnog. I was thinking something more dakimakura style - you know the brief gag from the Deadpool movie involving Wade and a stuffed unicorn? Same idea. XD

Though granted, it's not like people haven't been dumb enough to try using the front door before... (Warning, link is very very NSFW/NSFB)

(Also, I take it you'll be hand-picking cards from our suggestion lists on a case by case basis? Because I heard from the Discord that self-promoting suggestions are Not Cool and if that really is the case, I apologize for including a few of those in my own suggestions.)

Yeah, my decks are curated. (Is SFW) by Neshomeh on 2016-12-02 21:23:00 UTC Reply

I try not to pick and choose TOO much, but I do select and/or tweak for maximum audience, PPC relevance, versatility, and of course hilarity. As such, I admit I'm a little biased against references I don't really get, but if it's something from a canon I know other people are into, I'll probably put it in.

I don't mind people throwing out a few ideas from their own stuff, and I'm more or less following the principle of "everybody gets (at least) one," but the above rubric applies.

If anyone ever wants to +1 other people's suggestions, that wouldn't hurt. {= )

~Neshomeh
See, as someone who knows a bit about this... (NSFW/B/ALLEB) by Scapegrace on 2016-12-02 18:42:00 UTC Reply

Sounding with an actual Christmas tree, whether real or artificial, is actually quite easy - fir branches are quite thin, with only the buds at the end causing any mischief. The problem is the leaves, which add quite a lot of nastiness, not least the fact that Christmas trees drop needles like a quilting bee in an earthquake. If anything, it's worse with artificial trees, since while they're less likely to come off and get lodged, they're also generally sharper, especially aluminium ones.

Also, not sure I can get behind you calling anyone engaging in sounding play "dumb". YKINMK, after all.

Well, there's YKINMK... by Iximaz on 2016-12-02 22:43:00 UTC Reply

...and then there's shoving things into places that require surgical removal.

Didn't when I tried it. (nm) by Scapegrace on 2016-12-03 18:59:00 UTC Reply

Yeah, but I'm guessing you showed more sense than... by Iximaz on 2016-12-03 19:13:00 UTC Reply

...to end up injuring yourself.

Because seriously, if you need surgery to remove something you shoved in your body, you probably don't know what you're doing.

Which was my point. by Scapegrace on 2016-12-03 22:11:00 UTC Reply

Sounding is no more inherently life-threatening than owning a cat. Even when you monumentally screw up, most of the time the apparatus you've been using won't require surgical removal, mostly because it's actually a lot more difficult to get stuff stuck there than with, say, the anal cavity, simply because you've got so much less space to play with. So to speak. Lacerations, now, that's a very different story. Cuts inside your urethra are unbelievably painful, even the teeny tiny ones. Don't slit your slit up is the moral of this particular story.

I recall a similar discussion concerning Draco's Christmas Cuppa, and I feel the need to reiterate the points I made there; yes, this is in fact my kink, and just because it's done wrong in badfic doesn't mean it's done wrong in real life.

But my point is... by Iximaz on 2016-12-03 22:28:00 UTC Reply

...that the guy who needed surgical removal obviously didn't know what he was doing. Hence, being an idiot.

That's what my point is. Not that all people who enjoy sounding are idiots. Just the ones who try it with no idea how to do it without severely injuring themselves.

Uhhh... guys? by Desdendelle on 2016-12-03 23:26:00 UTC Reply

While this thread is one of the rare sometimes-NSFW ones on-Board, this discussion is kinda off-topic and in no way kiddie-friendly. It's also making me go "squick" and "do not want" a bit too much in my opinion, and no doubt that it's also squicky to other people... can you please take it to email or whatever?

^ That. (nm) by SkarmorySilver on 2016-12-02 23:17:00 UTC Reply

(Just a few? :P) (nm) by Iximaz on 2016-12-02 17:50:00 UTC Reply

I think I have some! by Mattman The Comet on 2016-12-01 15:53:00 UTC Reply

White:
Agent Matthew Welch dressed up as Santa Claus
Agent Ajax dressed up as a Disgruntled Elf
Agent Levy dressed up as Mrs. Claus
Agent Nickul Tiamat dressed up as Krampus
A TARDIS disguised as a Christmas Tree

Black:
_ and _ sneaking into the Nursery Christmas night and putting gifts under the Christmas Tree
_ eating all of the Nursery's Christmas Cookies

~Mattman, who is considering making a Christmas interlude with Matthew and Ajax

Hmm, interesting. by Neshomeh on 2016-12-01 16:04:00 UTC Reply

Y'know, I was just thinking about something like a toy drive for all the Nursery kids, especially the unadopted ones. I think it's probably good for kids to have a few things that belong to them. Agents can't all go around buying stuff (with what money, for starters), but I imagine plenty of people around HQ have talents like woodcarving, painting, sewing, etc., and could make little things to donate. I imagine that's probably how Nume and Ilraen got their sacks of toys in "The Night Before Christmas in HQ," which I am increasingly tempted to regard as canonical. How Jenni put them up to it, I'm not sure, but hey, Rule of Funny, right? {= )

So, hey, side-thread: Who has agents who make things? Derik certainly knows how to make simple instruments, for one.

~Neshomeh

Corolla's a techie now. by Sergio Turbo on 2016-12-01 21:48:00 UTC Reply

And she has her pet electronics/gadget projects, too - with obviously mixed results.

She is also known for having accidentally caused way too many sentient consoles.
Well... by SkarmorySilver on 2016-12-01 17:41:00 UTC Reply

Ripper and Backslash both like working with technology, and Falchion, being me, is presumably a really good drawer. I don't know if they could work, but... maybe?

Oh, and... by SkarmorySilver on 2016-12-01 17:41:00 UTC Reply

...Sarah's stated at least once that she's good at baking, and her partner Cupid is an amazing cook, so there's that too!

I would love to see the Detective dragged into this. by Aegis on 2016-12-01 17:37:00 UTC Reply

Jack would do it, too, just to see if he could spark some basic decency in the Detective.

He's a book binder, and a bit of an artist. He could probably make a few books for the Nursery- some classic fairy tales and things. You know, "Cryogenically Frozen Beauty," "The Seven Statues," "The Vanquishing of the Dark and Terrible Armada of the Great Vampires in the Dark Times by the Great Lord President Rassilon, Long May He Reign."
The ones you grow up with.

Once he'd made an anthology or two, he could probably help with setting up some lights and a tree for them using his sonic. He's a pretty tech-y guy.

Jack is actually decent at woodcarving. He could make a few cars, Pinewood Derby style, and a track.
I got a few. by SeaTurtle on 2016-12-01 16:19:00 UTC Reply

The Guardsman and Naya have extensive experience in building/designing things and spend quite a lot of time repairing their equipment and their robotic partner after a rough day in the field. Naya is more specialized in mechanics while the Guardsman is trained as a TARDIS engineer (and everything that goes with it: electronics, Vortex physics, multidimensional superstructures, system management, etc.).

Terabyte likes to cook.
Ooh! Ooh! by Matt Cipher on 2016-12-01 16:14:00 UTC Reply

Will does magic! Some shiny objects that distract and are shiny is no problem. (No cursed object, he promises!)

Agent!Matt (more info soon ;D) cooks.
I have a few. by Iximaz on 2016-12-01 16:08:00 UTC Reply

Alex tinkers in his spare time, Zeb bakes, Ix and the Aviator both sew. I could see them making toys, treats, and costumes for the Nursery kids for Christmas.

Come to think of it, Ilraen, too. by Neshomeh on 2016-12-01 16:13:00 UTC Reply

He's probably learned enough about electronics by now to wire things up with basic lights and sounds, as long as someone else provides the body of whatever's getting wired. He'd be all for it, too. {= )

~Neshomeh

Sudden image of Ilraen giving horsey rides. by Iximaz on 2016-12-01 16:15:00 UTC Reply

This is never getting out of my head now. You're welcome.

He'd use a horse morph for that. ^. ~ by Neshomeh on 2016-12-01 16:19:00 UTC Reply

He has one; I just haven't written about it yet. I've got this whole idea involving the courtship of Alice and a Valinorian stallion from one of Adagio's missions, with the framing device of them telling the story of how it happened to Ilraen. It's just kinda low on the priorities list. {= /

~Neshomeh

I love this game! by eatpraylove on 2016-12-01 15:45:00 UTC Reply

Black cards:
I'd love to get my partner____, but I'm flat broke.
The worst part of decorating for the holidays?
The only thing harder to get out of the carpet than glitter is _.
No, ____ does not count as spreading holiday cheer.
Who's leading this year's Yule Ball? _____ and __.
The agents were sleeping all snug in their beds, while visions of __ danced in their heads.

White cards:
Serenading the Flowers with "The Holly and The Ivy".
Shed pine needles.
Peppermint bark Bleepolate.
The PPC Holiday Songbook.
Regifting.
Characters born the day before or on Christmas.
A Christmas Miracle (TM).
Sudden convenient blizzards trapping them all inside.
Obligatory Nutcracker music.
Non-Xmas? Got you covered. by DawnFire on 2016-12-01 14:54:00 UTC Reply

White:
-Paying the Rudi's tab with Chanukah gelt (aka gold foil wrapped chocolate coins)
-Using Lumière as a quarter of a chanukiah
-'Borrowing' the Fisherman's TARDIS to start a victory dance with the Maccabees
-Eating WAY too many latkes (potato pancakes)
-A Sue who eats her latkes with chocolate chunks and clouds
-That one goodfic where Anthony Goldstein invites squib!Harry home for Chanukah ((note: real fic, and squib!Harry is several times more awesome than you ever imagined. And so is Anthony's squib sister Leah))
-Getting eight missions in a row because the Flowers think that counts as presents
-Trying to distract dragons with dreidels (spinning tops specific to Chanukah)

Black:
-"No, you cannot use an inflatable ____ as a chanukiah this year! It has to have candles!"
-"I told you to grate potatoes, not _!"
-"That's what I love about Chanukah: the lights, the _, the oily foods."
-What did the disentanglers get for Chanukah?
-What is the best use for a dreidel?

And that's what I've got for now. If I think of anything else, I'll add it.

Anyone celebrate Kwanzaa? I know that also happens around this time...

~DF

Thought of another! by DawnFire on 2016-12-01 19:19:00 UTC Reply

Black:
-"Oh, dreidel, dreidel, dreidel! I made you out of _____."

~DF

GLITTER! :D (nm) by Matt Cipher on 2016-12-01 22:45:00 UTC Reply

*waves giant inflatable dreidel around* "siLENCE" by DawnFire on 2016-12-01 22:51:00 UTC Reply

:P

(giant inflatable dreidel is real. I don't own it, but I got to toss one around for a while yesterday. It's pretty fun.)

~DF

Yay! Thank you! by Neshomeh on 2016-12-01 15:28:00 UTC Reply

Would you mind, though, if I use "menorah" instead of "chanukiah"? I think most of us are more familiar with the former; I had to look up the latter, and it seems as though they refer to the same thing. Correct me if I'm wrong, though!

~Neshomeh

Joining Esh's protest here. by Desdendelle on 2016-12-01 17:52:00 UTC Reply

Here, if you'd talk about a "menorah" people would think you're talking about a lightbulb (or a lamp), not the nine-branched candle-thingy that is used as part of the rituals in Hanukkah. They're definitely not the same thing and it won't be any different to calling the host of the Eucharist "pita".

Weeell, okay. by Neshomeh on 2016-12-01 20:47:00 UTC Reply

I don't think I've ever heard an American Jew talk about a chanukiah (and I have known a fair number; I might ask!), but unless some of them turn up on the Board, I will bow to the wishes of the local population. I don't mind making people look things up occasionally. {= )

~Neshomeh

I'm a US Jew; I use both words interchangeably by Cat-on-the-Keyboard on 2016-12-07 02:06:00 UTC Reply

But I think I use "chanukiah" more often.

--Key
So now... by DawnFire on 2016-12-01 23:04:00 UTC Reply

...my inner teacher is going 'yes!' while my inner sociologist is going '...yes, but...'

Yeah, my guess is that it's more widespread to use menorah as the term among anyone who's non-Orthodox and--

*looks it up*

...huh, Chabad compromises by calling it "the Chanukah menorah (also known as a chanukiah)." That at least has the distinction...

Tablet Magazine (http://jewcy.com/jewish-religion-and-beliefs/smackdownmenorahvs_chanukiah) adds "The name "chanukkiah" was given only in the end of the nineteenth century in Jerusalem by the wife of Eliezer Ben Yehuda, the revivor of the Hebrew language," which is cool to know. They also mention that today 'chanukiah' is widespread in Israel. So I'm guessing that in the Talmud, if it's called anything, it's either a menorah or a Chanukah menorah. So...I'm now guessing that the use of 'menorah' to mean 'chanukiah' came into American English from *Yiddish* (where it's spelled the same way as in Hebrew but pronounced 'meh-NOY-reh'), and gained more momentum than the Hebrew word did--learning modern Hebrew was on the rise in the 1900s, but in the early days it still wasn't *that* present. Also, the first major wave of Jewish immigration to American started around 1880, probably before the word 'chanukiah' even existed, so it may've made its way into Jewish English around that point and was never replaced.

Either way. While a speaker of modern Hebrew is definitely going to go 'uh...a menorah is something else?' an English speaker is pretty likely to go 'menorah!' And I'm going to go out on a limb and say that if you prefer the Yiddish connection, go for menorah, and if you prefer modern Hebrew and not confusing Israelis, go for chanukiah. And I'll just be the historian-ish person over in the corner.

As for this specific case, I kind of like the idea of people getting to learn something new :)

~DF

Both the Jewish people I asked knew the word, so... by Neshomeh on 2016-12-02 03:37:00 UTC Reply

Chanukiah it is! One person said the words were basically interchangeable, whereas the other said that if you're Jewish and speaking Jewishly you definitely want "chanukiah," and I trust the latter more, so I'm sold. And now I know how to pronounce it, too. ^_^

~Neshomeh learned something today.

Are you should you know how to pronounce it...? by Desdendelle on 2016-12-02 11:23:00 UTC Reply

"Chanukiah" is pronounced (IPA) ꭓanukija, with a voiceless uvular fricative, not the h-sound most English-speakers pronounce it as.

Yup! by Neshomeh on 2016-12-02 15:18:00 UTC Reply

Hey man, I'm a choir girl. I've had to wrap my vocal apparatus around all kinds of sounds I don't use on a daily basis. I got this.

~Neshomeh

That was less... by Desdendelle on 2016-12-02 15:53:00 UTC Reply

"You can't possibly pronounce it" and more "English speakers tend to butcher Hebrew pronunciation, did you get the real one".

As far as I know. by Neshomeh on 2016-12-02 16:33:00 UTC Reply

Unless Israeli Hebrew is somehow more real than the Hebrew that American Jews learn as part of their religious and/or cultural heritage...? Which would be kind of a condescending attitude, hence my assuming-best-intentions interpretation of your original post as a more or less reasonable questioning of me as an outsider as opposed to an elitist slighting of the entire population of American Jews.

Eh. It's probably not my place to be offended, since it's not my culture. To answer the question, yes, the Jewish people I know, at least, are aware of voiceless fricatives and encourage the rest of us to use them when the language calls for it.

~Neshomeh

Well, in a sense? by Desdendelle on 2016-12-02 17:12:00 UTC Reply

Hebrew as spoken in Israel (I don't think there's enough of a difference to merit an Israeli/American split like you have British English and American English) was less influenced by non-Semitic languages, so it's less far from the Biblical Hebrew than Hebrew as it is spoken in the States — at least the Hebrew I heard from Americans (even Americans who made Aliyah, since they tend to retain their accents).

The Hebrew generally spoken everywhere today... by DawnFire on 2016-12-02 20:59:00 UTC Reply

...follows the Sephardic pronunciation, which iirc was chosen as the official modern Hebrew thing partly because it was supposed to be a bit more authentic and partly because, well, it provided distance from Yiddish, which wasn't regarded highly (at various points it hasn't even been considered to have the status of a language). You'll still hear the Ashkenazic pronunciation sometimes, especially among the Diaspora Jews who would say things like 'gut Shabbes' (basically, it's the difference between "ahavAHT TorAH", Sephardic/modern Hebrew, and "aHAvas TOrah", Ashkenazi. My emphasis on the later may be a bit off. (Yiddish, of course, would have it as "ahavas Toyre", assuming the first word didn't get kind of slurred/condensed into the bargain)). Where was I? Right, Americans. Basically, there's what's probably a rather large number of English speaking Jews who have trouble pronouncing the kh sound. I've seen this among classmates, kids I'm teaching, and now also people in my German class. You hear things like h, a very soft kh that barely makes the sound but is distinct from the h, and then, especially in German or Yiddish classes, there are people who will replace kh with a hard k. Anyway. Even apart from that, the accent itself is often a little different--if a word ends in an L sound, for instance, Israelis will kind of draw it out? Like, the tip of the tongue goes against the top of the front teeth, instead of kind of curling in the middle of the mouth as it does in most Canadian/American English wouldn'tation of words ending in an L sound. That's one example. It's the same language, though Diaspora Jews are apparently more likely to have learned more biblical vocabulary and use it when am Israeli wouldn't, just with a few differences in accent and possibly some differences in emphasis.

And I really hope that made the point I wanted it to (whatever that was), and had no typos, because by now I'm really tired and I'm home and going to eat. So. Hope this adds something and is interesting, here it is so I don't post it two weeks later if the thread is even still on the Board, gut Shabbes, y'all.*

~DF

*/Is not actually the sort of person who normally says gut Shabbes, but has picked it up a little more since moving back to Canada at age ten and hearing it for the first time/

/mumblegrumble/ by DawnFire on 2016-12-01 17:26:00 UTC Reply

Well.

I mean, yeah, they're currently *used* to refer to the same thing, particularly in American English (I'm pretty sure no Hebrew-speaking Israeli would use it). I'll even catch myself saying 'menorah' sometimes. So, going by the current vernacular--that's perfectly fine.

The only thing is, well, technically they aren't meant to be two words for the same thing. A menorah, like the one that stood in the Temple two thousand years ago, has seven branches. A chanukiah, on the other hand, is what we use today and has nine--to symbolize the eight days the one jug of oil in the Chanukah story burned for (eight branches plus one shammash or helper candle, which is used to light the others; the menorah has six plus one shammash. If you're familiar with the Shammes or whatever the name ended up being for the caretaker of a synagogue in Eastern Europe, it's the same word). So, I have to add my religious/Jewish Studies major protest that they're actually *not* the same thing, even though the current use is to conflate them.

So...ach. Do what you like. Just, y'know, be aware that 'chanukiah' isn't just the Hebrew equivalent (both words are Hebrew)--it's actually the correct word for the currently used thing. But yeah, for understanding purposes, the vernacular should probably be used...

~DF

PS: "Menorah" probably comes from "ner", candle, or "or", light. "Chanukiah", well, I'm guessing it's meant to be 'this is a candelabra specific to Chanukah and referring to the Chanukah story so we're calling it a chanukiah'. And now I'm wondering how old that word is and what Hillel and Shammai called the Chanukah candle-holder in the Talmud when they were disagreeing over which direction the candles should be lit from...Anyway, I should go back to Yiddish in Canada now. Carry on. ~DF

Ooh! by Matt McCipher on 2016-12-01 08:10:00 UTC Reply

White:

- Decking the Flowers with boughs of holly.
- Agent Luxury in a skimpy Santa costume.
- Drunk rendition of Rudolph the Red-Nosed Reindeer.
- Putting presents under the Sunflower Official.

I'll probably think of more later

- Matt, using his precious 20 minutes of break to hang out with you lot.
Have a few! by Iximaz on 2016-12-01 05:39:00 UTC Reply

White cards:
Pouring eggnog into the Fountain of Bleepka.

A bunch of Nursery kids on a sugar high.

Singing fandom filks of your favorite carols.

Spiking all the Christmas cookies with Bleep.

Kidnapping the Nutcracker and making him fight Cluny.

Wizard crackers with inappropriate toys.

A stampede of elves.

Black cards
'Tis the season to be _! Fa la la la la la la la la!

How the Sue stole _.

This year's PPC party is supposed to include ____.

What's that noise on the roof?
I'll start with a somewhat implicitly-NSFW one: by palindromordnilap on 2016-12-01 05:31:00 UTC Reply

"Inappropriate use of candy canes in slashfic."

On that idea... by Granz the Ice Cream Monarch on 2016-12-01 05:41:00 UTC Reply

"Who's being slashed in this Christmas oneshot? ____ and ____."

Seriously, it's like a disease. I've seen it in Harry Potter, in Code Geass, heck, I've seen the Hitachiin twins slashed in one or a couple!