Yeah, I think judging authenticity in this case could be problematic.

Subject: Yeah, I think judging authenticity in this case could be problematic.
Author: Cicada
Posted on: 2021-06-08 17:14:47 UTC

I think in the end, saying "nah I can totally tell you're doing this as fiction" seems a bit too authenticity-policing to me. I think it might be best to leave these fics alone. And as you guessed, they do indeed make judicious use of the "make Draco Malfoy fall in love with me" button. If I were to mission something without the nonfiction premise that used a similar tactic (after getting Permission of course) I'd probably charge for the unconvincing chemistry such pairings usually have?

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Reality shifting fics? by Cicada on 2021-06-08 06:11:04 UTC Reply

Heya, Boardfolk! The topic of covering reality shifting journals as badfic has come up a couple times on Discord, and I thought it might be helpful to bring it up on the Board. My best summary of reality shifting fics: based on a new, often characterized as cultlike belief on the internet that through sheer force of will, it's possible to project into a parallel reality which corresponds to any fictional universe, or any idealized version of the universe. They have a sort of mantra defining their abilities and status within the world, and also have an app making them capable of godmodding.

The questions being raised on the discord were mainly if it could be done within PPC ethics, since it's supposed to be very explicitly from the author's viewpoint, and if a reality shifter should be treated differently from a normal Sue.

I personally think since it is still heavily fictionalized and the godmodding characters in a "shifter journal" presumably behave to some extent more boldly than their authors and have fictional backstories fitting them into the alternate reality, they can be treated as characters that just so happen to be self-inserts. As for potential treatment, I'm a bit torn. It might make some sense to treat a different type of fiction differently in missions, but I worry treating them too much as author avatars could be bringing the author into things too much, and I worry that getting too invested in the metafiction could lead to either being sort of cruel to a small subculture, or on the flipside I'd feel weird about seeming to legitimize this belief about being able to escape reality.

That sounds like something I might've gotten into as a kid. by Neshomeh on 2021-06-10 00:39:32 UTC Reply

My friends and I used to play this game where we had contact with the spirit world, which existed as sort of a parallel dimension to the real world, and were privy via telepathy or something to all sorts of drama and whatnot between the ghosts living their afterlives. We all had "contact" with different people and reported to each other on what they were saying and doing, basically like RP. I think we all knew it was a game, really—I mean, it was very soap opera (especially with my friends' people [and they had multitudes compared to my handful]), and there were canon characters as well as OCs—but part of the fun was being borderline-serious about it. Like, how thrilling would that be if it were real? Especially the part where it would've proved our favorite books and stuff true. It was nice to pretend to believe it. {= )

So, my guess would be that "shifting" works the same way, where there's always the kernel of knowledge that this is a fantasy at the back of your mind, but also a whole lot of wishing it were real and enjoying the feeling of almost believing that something so extraordinary could happen to you.

I don't think we ever expected anyone else to take us seriously about it, though. At the very least, there was the whole trope about young people being privy to something important but not being able to tell the adults because they wouldn't believe it and might forbid it if they knew, which added to the thrill. As for other kids, of course we weren't going to tell anyone who wasn't special and cool like us. We certainly weren't looking for approval or feedback from anyone about the events we were "reporting."

Therefore, I think if the shifters explicitly seek feedback, that could be an acknowledgement that their journals are a work of fiction and make them eligible for critique, but otherwise I agree that this is something other than fanfiction and is probably best left alone. I feel like I should also mention my friends and I had grown out of the game by high school if not even by middle school, so I suspect the age of the average shifter may be younger than the average ficcer? I might worry about making sure they do know it's fantasy, and gently questioning things that don't make sense in a journal might be a good way to introduce critical thinking skills that will make them better writers later, but there IS such a thing as a wrong time and place to nitpick writing mechanics. {= )

~Neshomeh

The possible RP aspect isn't something I'd considered... by Cicada on 2021-06-10 19:56:58 UTC Reply

I definitely did stuff like that as a kid, though not nearly as elaborate as yours sounds! That's pretty awesome, honestly. But in that case, yeah- I get the impression that the PPC stopped bad RP critique for a reason, since it isn't nearly as much about quality.

I'm not sure we ever did any in the first place. {= ) by Neshomeh on 2021-06-10 20:37:11 UTC Reply

Direct critiques of RPs, that is. The closest to it might be the "Valcentica" report? But that's all I can think of. In addition to other, much more important concerns, it's impractical to spork an active role-play. Also I think the word for that is "trolling." {= P

Fics based on RPs that haven't been edited into functional stories would be another matter, though...

~Neshomeh

TBH I'd feel a little weird about it if we did. by Thoth on 2021-06-11 12:28:02 UTC Reply

If it's been cleaned up for publication that's one thing, but a proper RP, like, out of a log, is usually really more for the benefit of the people playing than the people reading. It's a weird thing to critique because, well... we've been invited, but we're not exactly the audience, per se.

Luminosity/glowfic? by Cicada on 2021-06-14 19:11:58 UTC Reply

I know the author of Luminosity, the twilight rationalfic, spawned this sort of subgenre of rp-log fanfiction, so that could concievably be the kind of thing you'd be talking about? I wouldn't spork any of those, though- both because I would not be able to read the massive amount of text needed to understand anything glowfic, and because when I looked around the community to see what it was about it seemed like a really nice place with lots of dedication. Not the kind of place I'd go to find badfic- but possibly an example of the kind of "published rp" that could be worth critiquing more like a fanfic piece?

[looks shiftily in has a planned Amentan Agent with Opinions about glowfic] by owosphere on 2021-06-16 09:37:53 UTC Reply

But yeah, that's a good example of RPs getting rewritten as fanfiction, though there's many of those that are still in raw RP format and probably wouldn't be missionable as such.

Another good example of a missionable RP is one that just kinda... Turns into a collaboratively written fanfic halfway through, IMO. I had that happen once, writers started coordinating behind the scenes and eventually they just co-wrote every post.

Yeah, I definitely mean logs presented as stories, not logs presented as logs. by Neshomeh on 2021-06-11 13:53:20 UTC Reply

If you take an RP log, do little or nothing to it, call it a story anyway, and slap it up on a fanfiction site for all and sundry to judge as such, that's what I mean. Not, e.g., these. {= )

Also possibly stories written as stories based on the events of RPs, but then there's no reason to treat them separately from any other story—except maybe to be on the alert for the increased likelihood that every single OC and possibly the canon characters are flaming Sues. Look, I'm very fond of my old RP buddies, the good times we had, and the stories we wrote about them, but man oh man, I tell ya, the stories were not good. {X' D And, I mean, maybe there's some room for leniency in those cases given that insane things happen because multiple people had a hand in them and there's some ~~mob~~ improv mentality involved, rather than one person actually thinking it made sense? I dunno. Could be interesting.

~Neshomeh

My old RP... by Cicada on 2021-06-14 19:05:12 UTC Reply

...involved a heart-shaped locket containing the soul of a space mage from Pluto who'd been turned into a world-killing catastrophe through a pact with a quasi-demonic entity, someone who borrowed the powers of Max from Life Is Strange, and a lot of me holding them in my arms and trying to save them from dying. I also had a Mwahaha evil party with dragons in a comments section about conquering the world in honor of the person who was my favorite youtuber at the time. However, I drank tea instead of alcohol at the party! We might have been conquering the world, but underage drinking is no joke! There's a lot of RP that really doesn't have to be good, I agree. As ridiculous as those were, I really treasure those memories, and I think it helped me build up my confidence when I got into more "proper" rp like tabletop gaming and stuff, and I have characters for that who I'm really proud of. I brought it up because I vaguely remembered seeing a department of bad rp on the wiki? Might have been wrong there.

Oh, the Bad Role-play Department existed. by Neshomeh on 2021-06-15 03:58:33 UTC Reply

However, the original website was lost with the closing of Geocities, and neither of the two surviving stories from it have anything to do with sporking role-plays. Therefore, I can't be sure if it ever happened or not, but my guess would be not. Very few departments managed to break away from the usual DMS type of mission in practice, and that's if they ever got off the ground in the first place.

My theory? Sues are common, easy to spot, and present a simple, concrete sort of problem that can be solved in practical ways, so Sue-slaying stories are easy to write. Bad slash and implausible crossovers sans Sues may have a few more moving pieces, but can still be solved relatively simply by removing canon characters from situations they shouldn't be in and returning them to where/when they belong. The more complex or abstract the problem becomes, the less well the tried and true snark-intervene-fix format works, so the harder it is to write a mission about it. At least, one that still feels like a PPC mission.

This is, of course, not to say that it can't be done. {= )

~Neshomeh

I also think fic rarity could be a factor? by Cicada on 2021-06-15 21:46:47 UTC Reply

For departments such as DOGA or WhatTheFic, it's possible part of the thing there is that there simply aren't that many fics with notable geographic distortions, and finding utterly incoherent fics that are amusing to spork isn't an easy task. In addition, I think the existence of Floaters can make niche departments less relevant- it's hard to commit to a pair of agents who you're really excited about and know that you can only do a certain kind of quite niche mission with them which will be hard to find when you could make them Floaters, do more standard missions most of the time, and branch out occasionally when you feel like it. I personally think that's a good thing- it's nice to have the freedom to take risks when you feel like it without having to commit to something more high-effort. But your mileage may vary- some people would likely prefer the flavor that an unusual department gives, and some people like having to try unusual things. Challenge can be good for creativity, after all! (if I ever get my Permission Request done, I imagine doing a Floater pair with a lot of standard missions, but I'd also take great pleasure in some WhatTheFicing)

Nah, it's laziness. ^_~ by Huinesoron on 2021-06-16 09:51:36 UTC Reply

I say this as the creator of both those departments... back in't'day, I never bothered to look for decent Geographical Aberration stories, but just picked something that would qualify in generic Suefics. I think one of my original missions had 'they walked that a bit quickly' as the reason Dafydd was called in.

WhatThe is a bit different: as created, it wasn't intended for incoherency but for ideas that were so out there that it's hard to know what to charge them with. The one where Merry and Pippin speak Gaelic is the canonical example, or the fanfic of an unmade adaptation. They're not so much awful as they are "... say what?".

Since they were created fairly late in my original mission-writing period, they then languished for a long time - that's the laziness again, not bothering to even look for possible targets - until Scape stepped in. She's shifted the department's focus to utter incoherency, as you say, which is fine (really, it's fine... >_>), but means I can't really talk about that part. :D

Ultimately, though I poke fun at myself as lazy, you're right: Suvians are so easy to find, and so easy to kill in interesting ways. Stories with geography or whatnot as their core problem are a lot rarer.

This is why several of my agents have gone down the 'consultancy' route: Agent Huinesoron, for example, teams up with agents from more general departments to provide geographical expertise without pretending it's the only thing that matters. It works for what I want to do with him, but doesn't allow the same partnership stories that the standard model does.

hS

I personally wouldn't. by Kittyauthor on 2021-06-08 14:59:32 UTC Reply

Since they treat scripts akin to actual reality, and their inserts as themselves, no matter how distant they are, I'd find it to be in bad taste personally. It feels too personally (if that even is the right word) to spork something someone feels would (or did) actually happen to them.

Of course, this is just my opinion on it, not fact or anything, and they really shouldn't be posting the scripts online anyways (since it's personal).

Self-inserts tend to differ from scripts in that the author doesn't feel like the events could happen to them but are writing themselves into it anyways.

Also, shifting is really popular (still, oddly enough) at the moment and I'd think it would be bad to spork a script right now because, well, lots of things.

Sorry if my thoughts aren't very clear, but I was trying to get across the point that I wouldn't want to personally but everybody is different.

kA
So... it's fiction, right? by Huinesoron on 2021-06-08 08:58:48 UTC Reply

By which I mean, it's being written as fiction, not because the authors believe that they have actually experienced the events of the journals? (Note that this doesn't rule out other people believing it's true.)

If so, it's like you said: a specialised form of first-person self-insert, just the same as the old Girl-Falls-Into-Middle-Earth. Having a common backstory doesn't make them any different.

The biggest problem would be if they're explicitly saying that they can change the world when they enter. You can't charge for 'making Legolas fall in love with you' if they literally have a 'make Legolas fall in love with me' button! It's character abuse, but it's not against the logic of the story. (Though in this case you could send a message to the Interdimensional Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Elves.)

If they're not written as fiction, or if it's unclear whether the authors believe they're reporting actual events, it's probably best to leave it alone.

hS

Personally not in the best taste by clairvoyant on 2021-06-08 18:53:08 UTC Reply

Like you said, it's difficult to determine the intent of the authors. Do they fully believe the contents of the script are real? Are they writing it as a more meta version of fanfiction? Is it just for fun? The line is very blurry. Personally however, I think the fact that they are writing a shifting script and not fanfiction is indicative of it leaning less into fiction and more into "realism." I mean, if they were intending it on being a self-insert fic with no grounds in reality, why wouldn't they just write a self-insert fic with no grounds in reality?

I agree that even if just for now it's best to leave it alone. Maybe circumstances will change a few years down the line when the authors have grown out of this phase and shifting is remembered as a weird period of internet history when people thought they could astral project into other realities. Until then though, I think that the PPC should just stick to avoiding any unnecessary discomfort that is bringing potentially real people into missions and sporking.
- clairvoyant
Yeah, I think judging authenticity in this case could be problematic. by Cicada on 2021-06-08 17:14:47 UTC Reply

I think in the end, saying "nah I can totally tell you're doing this as fiction" seems a bit too authenticity-policing to me. I think it might be best to leave these fics alone. And as you guessed, they do indeed make judicious use of the "make Draco Malfoy fall in love with me" button. If I were to mission something without the nonfiction premise that used a similar tactic (after getting Permission of course) I'd probably charge for the unconvincing chemistry such pairings usually have?
Well... That's kind of the problem. by owosphere on 2021-06-08 13:18:41 UTC Reply

It's sort of unclear whether the people writing it legitimately believe that these events happened. There's some of these stories that read like reality shifting is a framing device (the good old astral travel excuse for self-insert fics, revisited with a zoomer touch) and the pretense that it's real is just stylistic; but then there's others that may be completely serious.

More annoying yet is the ones that might be "fake" as in completely made up and not based on actual experienced (or dreamed) events, but are presented as true specifically in order to deceive people and encourage them to keep pursuing their goals of shifting. Basically, it's all very complicated, and I'd personally err on the side of caution.

... By which I mean using the old PPC tradition of making up a fictional badfic for the sake of Plot. Or a fictional reality shifter character, in this case.

(Also, hi! I've been on the Discord for ages, but keep procrastinating an introduction post on the Board itself. Should really get to it at some point.)