Subject: Is posting return messages after a hiatus mandatory? ...Oops (nm
Author:
Posted on: 2013-06-21 21:38:00 UTC
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On Retention by
on 2013-06-21 13:35:00 UTC
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So, looking through the figures I'm gathering for my monthly reports, I've noticed some quite worrying statistics.
In 2012, we had 91 people make an introductory post on the Board. Of those, only 34 lasted two months - or rather, posted in the calender month two later than the one they joined in. That's only a 37% short-term retention rate.
But it gets worse: Only 17 of last year's newbies posted between March and May of this year. That's only half of those who survived two months - less than 20% of our total intake.
You get similar rates when you look at people who announced their returns at some point last year: of 32 total 'returnbies', 15 hit two months (47%), and only six or so are still around now (19%).
So, to everyone, a handful of questions:
1/ Before you joined the PPC community, what did you think you were getting into? How did it match up to your expectations?
2/ If at any point you have drifted away, why? And what brought you back?
3/ Why do you think so many people don't stick around?
In related statistics, I also looked at the 29 Permission requests from last year. Of the 23 people involved, 8 were granted Permission to write PPC stories on their first attempt. Another 8 failed the first time through and never asked again. Five more went back, reworked their stuff, and were granted Permission on their second tries. Only two people tried a second time and were still turned down (and I've looked them both over, and there were very good reasons both times). Permission is not that hard to get if you're willing to actually put in the effort to a) get to know us and b) craft decent characters. Those eight refusals include at least a couple of 'Hi I've just joined can I have Permission?'s.
hS -
Re: On Retention by
on 2013-07-01 20:22:00 UTC
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Those statistics are quite interesting - I'd certainly noticed a trend for people to post an introductory thread, only to post little (or nothing) after and just fade away, but I hadn't realised the retention rate was that low.
On to your specific questions:
1) Before joining, I thought I'd found somewhere that would help me with my own writing, a group of people that were interested in writing themselves, and were also interested in improving. It seemed to be somewhere where I could get advice, maybe offer it too, and chat with people about stories and canons in general – I'm pleased to say that it matched well with those expectations.
2) I have drifted away a bit - I was totally gone for a little while towards the end of last year, and I've been lurking a lot more than I've been posting these last few weeks. Both of those relate to stuff in real life.
Last year I was made redundant, and there was a point where looking for a new job had dragged on for so long that I pretty much stopped socialising altogether. Sadly, the PPC was the first place I left, and the last one I returned to - not a reflection on how much I like the PPC, but a comment on how much easier I found it to walk away from a purely online community, versus actually seeing people in real life.
Recently I've managed to find a new job (which has had the unfortunate side effect of cutting down on my free time), and I started lurking while I adjusted to how tired actually having to wake up in the mornings again was leaving me. I’ve just about got back into the habit now, so I should be around a bit more.
What brought me back is that this is a really cool place, and I never really intended on leaving - it was just something that I'd noticed had happened after the fact. I'm also involved in a couple of long running betaing projects, so if I do drift away again in the future, I may well get called back. Which would be a good thing if it happens, although I'm hoping that it won't be necessary.
3) I guess that it just doesn't match their expectations once they've joined up, or it could be that some real life distraction comes along shortly after they've joined, and they just weren't invested enough at that point to stick around. Real life has proved a powerful enough distraction to drag me away, but I’d like to think that I’d always eventually find my way back here if that happens again.
If I remember rightly from a previous 'stats of the Board' post, didn't you conclude that there were a bunch of IP addresses that regularly view, but don't post? Maybe some of the MIA newbies are just content to read the stories and what we are up to without actually joining in? -
Thank you by
on 2013-06-24 22:24:00 UTC
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Thank you for posting this. I have been moping about, mostly lonely for months now, and this was exactly the kick in the pants that I needed to make me realize how silly it was to not be making a better effort to "undrift" considering how much I still love this community.
So yay for nudging me towards that introspection I needed. -
Hrm. by
on 2013-06-24 18:59:00 UTC
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1) Honestly, I was mostly here for the community. I liked the idea of sporking badfic, but at the time, I had recently discovered that a site I frequented through most of high school was inaccessible on the network in my dorm, and having just moved, I didn't really have anybody to talk to. So I showed up hear, not really sure what to expect!
2) Certain events roughly a year ago. I never really planned to come back to the Board, I just started showing up on the chat when I realised that I had been completely without human interaction for about two months. The PPC is pretty much the only place I hang out, partially due to where I live (2 hours by bike to the nearest town!), partially because it's where all my friends are. (Also, where I met my boyfriend.)
3) I think it's a combination of factors that pretty much everybody else said better than I possibly could >.
I would like to add that this has been a trend that I've been seeing since I joined three years ago, and that it's honestly never really concerned me all that much. The newbies that stay do seem to be here for the long run. -
Grep. by
on 2013-06-24 17:59:00 UTC
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1) Honestly, I don't remember. I think I kind of came for the Sue slaying, but stayed for all the fun and the people.
2) I've always been kinda there.
3) Honestly, again, because they came for the Sue slaying, but weren't really interested in the rest.
I like book ends. -
My reasons by
on 2013-06-24 17:56:00 UTC
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1) I figured I'd be getting into something similar to the SCP Foundation, when it comes to writing quality. More lenient than I expected.
2) I left because I thought I wasn't any good, and came back just kinda on a whim.
3) A lack of confidence, perhaps? -
Somewhat, ah, late response, but... by
on 2013-06-24 11:54:00 UTC
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- I...honestly didn't quite know what to expect. I had had no clue that the PPC community was still going quite so strong--in fact, I'd thought it had died out, more or less, quite a few years ago. I wanted to obtain permission to mention the PPC in a Mary-Sue parody I was writing (I'm still writing it--it's actually the one I used a chapter of for my writing sample) and I also wanted to say hello to the community that created all the writings and so on that I'd grown up with and that had helped shape my writing. I'm not really sure I thought I was getting into anything, beyond a whole lot of excitement over meeting people who were, essentially, a form of celebrities to me. I don't think I expected to get this far in, though; I certainly wasn't planning on writing missions and so on quite so soon. So I'd say...it's been far more than I ever even thought to expect.
2. I...don't *think* I've drifted away...not for more than maybe a week at the most, and that's mainly due to being busy. Of course, I'm about to 'drift away' for three weeks due to joining a program with no wifi except on weekends, but that's a separate point. I'm hoping I won't end up drifting once I start uni in the fall, but it's a possibility: I'll have a lot of work, and a lot to adjust to. However, I will most likely be able to keep up (I hope). So while I may not be on quite as much, I probably won't fade out altogether.
Basically, I don't think I've ever drifted yet, at least not as a member of the Board. If I ever do, it'll most likely be due to being very busy with RL and schoolwork (specifically around exam times, I'm guessing).
3. From what I've seen...occasionally people get offended, occasionally people feel like no one shares their interests, occasionally people get busy, and occasionally people just aren't very good at sticking around as members of online communities. It happens. Alternatively, sometimes people just don't have internet access for a while, and from there they either come back or just drift away. Occasionally, people just outgrow the community; for instance, I used to be a member of a Warriors RP and discussion community on Amazon (and an HP one, actually, though that was separate). I eventually just stopped being quite so into the series, and some of my friends there left, and it just...didn't work so well. I think when that happened, my interest in the HP community also waned, and I sort of drifted off into the sunset. I sometimes check back with the HP community, though.
And now that I've bombarded you with blocks of text, I'll post this and see what else I've missed.
~DF
- I...honestly didn't quite know what to expect. I had had no clue that the PPC community was still going quite so strong--in fact, I'd thought it had died out, more or less, quite a few years ago. I wanted to obtain permission to mention the PPC in a Mary-Sue parody I was writing (I'm still writing it--it's actually the one I used a chapter of for my writing sample) and I also wanted to say hello to the community that created all the writings and so on that I'd grown up with and that had helped shape my writing. I'm not really sure I thought I was getting into anything, beyond a whole lot of excitement over meeting people who were, essentially, a form of celebrities to me. I don't think I expected to get this far in, though; I certainly wasn't planning on writing missions and so on quite so soon. So I'd say...it's been far more than I ever even thought to expect.
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Well..... by
on 2013-06-23 05:58:00 UTC
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1) Honestly? I discovered this thing two years ago, but I was somewhat scared of joining any sort of internet group, even one that worked with fanfiction like this. I wasn't even sure if it was real, except for the wikia page. After a while, I started to think I was ready to join and finally decided to come aboard. And to be honest, I trolled around for a couple of days before introducing myself, but I really had no idea what I was getting into before I joined. All I knew was it sounded cool and everyone really took me in when I went onto the chat before officially joining (I specifically remember my cat had turned off my sound card and asking Tray what the heck was going on in some horror flick he was showing everyone using a sharing site). I thought then that I'd be doing the mission writing immediately (like I said, I really didn't think joining through), but here I am four months later and still staying away from the mission writing. I think I still want to wait a bit before asking. I'm not sure I've been on here long enough, or have time to write missions (which reminds me...whenever the next badfic report comes up, I need to attach my old Pit account on there. It's a mission frenzy). Other than that, though, it's not all that different. This is one of two sites I've ever been on in which the members are like a slightly nerdy family. And I love that.
2)I did take a two-three week hiatus at the end of May- the beginning of June, but it had nothing to do with the site. I got sick about two weeks before my final exams, and I was working my butt off to ace finals because I lost that week of review. My post count hasn't been as large as usual as of late because I've been resting. But I'm getting back into it now. Like I said before, we're a community here. I could never just forget you guys. :)
3) Part of that might just be the PPC's nature. I'm a member of another RP site that gets a billion members who sign up and have their name in white, which stands for an unsorted newbie (it's Harry Potter). Yet they never post and never get sorted. And if everyone who'd joined was active, the site wouldn't have so few people posting. A lot of the people posting might not have thought it through, like I did. And it's nothing the PPC is doing particularly wrong- everyone here's very awesome and welcoming, the posts are good, we get to know each other. The issue is some people joining may not be as interested in the PPC as we are. Or normal life might be getting in the way as well. It might also have to do with the fact that we have to wait a bit before getting permission. Some people may not be interested in building the community. -
Answers! by
on 2013-06-23 05:53:00 UTC
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- I don't remember. It was ten(!) years ago. All I know is that I was also on the OFUM mailing list and a member of a small Farscape fan forum that had similar levels of zaniness and close community, so prior experience definitely stood me in good stead to get along here.
2. There was a period early on where I drifted away, I think before the time I'm counting from now. Partly it was to do with real life—I would've been in my last year or so of high school, some weird stuff was happening in my family—and I hadn't gotten firmly entrenched here yet, so I think I just sort of forgot the PPC existed for a while. Eventually I found my way back, though, and noticed that there was a Farscape fic up for sporking on the Oddlots main page. I was under the impression I needed a co-writer to work with (that was the norm in those days), so I got active in the course of trying to find someone who knew the fandom well enough to write with me. I ended up finding Artemis, but it didn't work out—neither of us were very experienced PPCers, and in hindsight, the badfic was too long and the problems too understated to be missionable. I stuck around, though, and the rest is history.
Oh, there was that hiatus last summer, but I'm not going to discuss that publicly.
3. Various factors. Some people wander off and forget we exist and/or are consumed with other things, others are daunted by the Permission process or the Board or the learning curve, others just plain don't understand and don't fit in. And in my opinion, that's all perfectly fine. The people I want to stick around are the ones who are enthusiastic about the idea, willing—nay, eager!—to do the homework, able to grasp the concepts involved, and able to get along and make friends. That's never going to be everybody, and perhaps it's always going to be a smallish number. C'est la vie.
~Neshomeh
- I don't remember. It was ten(!) years ago. All I know is that I was also on the OFUM mailing list and a member of a small Farscape fan forum that had similar levels of zaniness and close community, so prior experience definitely stood me in good stead to get along here.
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Re: On Retention by
on 2013-06-23 04:15:00 UTC
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Quite the variety of opinions here. As one of the few who made it past two months (though I have been reading PPC stories even before my first post here), allow me to give my two cents. Now if my memory would just cooperate...
1/ Before you joined the PPC community, what did you think you were getting into? How did it match up to your expectations?
Having read the PPC Constitution before I joined, I knew that the Board would be a place of discussion, not about badfics, but about...anything. And having started a few discussion threads (insert shameless plugs here), I was not disappointed. And IIRC, I wanted to have at least a better view of when the next PPC missions would come out!
Long story short, the Board has met (and at times exceeded) my expectations--though I am intrigued how people could find lifelong friends (mush less mates) online.
2/ If at any point you have drifted away, why? And what brought you back?
Well, I haven't drifted away, since I'm always coming here approximately every day.
3/ Why do you think so many people don't stick around?
It could be that they had different expectations. For example, if all I cared about was figuring out when the next PPC mission was going to be published, I might not be sticking around, impatient as I am for a good read. -
Heh. by
on 2013-06-23 00:33:00 UTC
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I know I haven't been active recently because I've been busy with school and Star Trek and travelling to China,so yeah. I find that when I get into a new fandom, I don't post as much on the Board. Not particularly sure why though.
1/ Before you joined the PPC community, what did you think you were getting into? How did it match up to your expectations?
I thought I was getting into a community dedicated to sporking badfic. I got so much more than that; I became a better writer because of the PPC.
2/ If at any point you have drifted away, why? And what brought you back?
Like I said, whenever I get into a new fandom I find myself drifting from the Board, probably because I'm indulging my inner fangirl in private. I always come back in between fandoms, or when I've decided to write PPC missions for the new fandom. Also, sometimes travel factors into it.
3/ Why do you think so many people don't stick around?
They get scared off after being told about the ways of the Board? Sometimes some of the newbies get repeat reminders about Permission and posting multiple threads, amend they get kinda cowed into submission. I dunno. -
*and they (nm) by
on 2013-06-23 00:52:00 UTC
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Hm. by
on 2013-06-22 19:52:00 UTC
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(This seems like the title of half of my messages here. Hm.)
Anyway, to answer your questions:
1) Before I joined this madhouse, I thought I was entering a madhouse of the fun type. I mean, I found the PPC's page over there at TvTropes, liked what I saw, and went over. And, barring a few scuffles with some people, I don't see a reason to regret joining.
2) Well, when I was drafted, and then when I was in my military course, I didn't quite have access to a computer, so obviously I wasn't around. It wasn't voluntary, so I came back at the first oppurtunity.
3) Well... I think that most people that end up here want to start writing PPC stuff, and they want to start writing it now. So probably the 'hang-around-so-we-can-see-who-you-are' period kinda scares them away. -
I'm not dead! by
on 2013-06-22 19:23:00 UTC
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I just haven't been posting on the board. I go into the IRC almost every day though.
1. I thought I was getting into a fun little community. I wanted to review things and be funny, but as I stayed here I began to realize that that isn't really what the PPC is about.
The PPC is about being a community of writers, laughing at the bad and praising the good. It's about pointing out the flaws of something in a humorous way, but not being mean while doing it. It's about celebrating the amazing things that can come out of fandoms, and sharing them with others.
So, no. The PPC didn't match my expectations. It was much better.
2. I've never drifted away.
3. I can't say for sure, but I think it's because what people are expecting is a writing community, not a community of writers. Newbies who show up really want to get their stories out. I did too. But then they run into getting permission, and well... a month is a long time to wait for some people. -
Hmmm. That's a point. by
on 2013-06-22 19:49:00 UTC
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With regards to item three - maybe we should do more to promote stories, and the pluggage thereof, that aren't solely PPC? I know a lot of us have our own fanfics or original works that we'd love to get out, get critiqued, and discuss. That was done a lot more often a while back, and I don't think it could hurt to move towards doing it more often in the future.
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*pokes self with a stick* by
on 2013-06-22 18:03:00 UTC
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Yup, I'm still alive too!
Which means I guess I'm qualified to answer your questions :)
1/ Before you joined the PPC community, what did you think you were getting into? How did it match up to your expectations?
I'm with a couple other people in that I really didn't have any expectations. I joined because I wanted to have more of the PPC world, get to know the people that were currently writing spin-offs and to be able to write missions myself perhaps, though I don't know how much of a writer I really am, but it was one of those impulse things where, if I ever wanted to be able to, I had to join, so I did. :)
2/ If at any point you have drifted away, why? And what brought you back?
I haven't really drifted away, per se. Though it seems like it, since I don't ever really post. But I do check in with the board to see what's going on a couple times a day or so.
As to why I've pretty much gone into lurking mode, well several other's have said it quite nicely.
VixenMage beat me to it, and no, I'm not looking to bring up the debate again either, but yes, part of it the board style. And I know most people are happy with it and that's fine, and I can't say I'd post tons more if it were to switch to a more modern style. I am a member of regular boards, and I lurk there a lot too. I'm just a naturally quiet and shy person, even around my friends in real life I don't speak up much and am content to just listen to the conversation most of time. However, I do find the board's older style to be a bit off-putting in that it's harder to follow conversation lines if you come in after a huge discussion has exploded, and trying to sort things out while scrolling up and down a huge thread, and going back to catch any new posts that happened while I was scrolling around leads me to be less like to to post at the end of things because of the slightly obnoxious effort involved.
Which leads to what Miah talked about, shared fandoms, and I'll second that, there are a few that share more than my love for Lord of the Rings, but I'm not big in most fandoms that come across the board. And those that do share some of my other fandoms drift off, or are big into the other major fandoms represented here so they discuss those, and not understanding most of the references, and having spent a major amount of time sorting out the tangled thread, I have a hard time joining in those discussions.
Also, and though I'm really not trying to harp on the board, being shy, I get worried about posting something that isn't super important, or likely to inspire an actual discussion since every new topic, big or small, important or not, paid attention to or not, kicks another topic off the front page. And yes we have frivolous topics, and have fun, and that's great, and I'm not really sure how to explain what I'm trying to say, but every time I run across something that I might post to another board for the fun of it, I think more than twice about posting here as I don't want to drop topics off the front page.
I'm also with hermione of vulcan, I used to at least always try to post on newbie threads, but so many of them not only don't ever seem to post again, but don't even respond to their welcome thread comments that it gets disheartening. So I've pretty much stopped that as well, though as she said it is an important part/tradition of the board, and being welcoming is a great thing, one of the things I like about this place. But as she put it, when you throw a party for someone and they wander off after 5 minutes... I have a hard time getting excited to throw the next party when you know from the pattern of the last 3 that they'll most likely not stick around for even their welcome either.
3/ Why do you think so many people don't stick around?
I'm sure there are a wide variety of reasons, as Karen and Ekyl said, shyness, which applies to me, or being at a loss of what do here while waiting, especially with the issue of each new topic kicking an old one off the page, coupled with said shyness, and real life. I know as a newbie I was wary of posting new topics because of that. And I have posted a few topics since as I got more of a feel for the place, but in the beginning it was a thing... and obviously not all newbies have that issue, which is not to try and admonish anyone, it's great, we get some fun discussions, and some serious ones, but they are at least active. I'm just saying I can't be the only one that was a bit less active because of that fact. And maybe it is a reason why some don't end up sticking around past their first couple posts.
Or as Cassie said, maybe they expect continual madcap adventures and stories and we just don't work like that? Or they are looking for the harder core bashing like doctorlit pointed out.
And there is probably a fair amount of people who aren't willing to wait out the permission process, as Ekyl said. -
Respuestos. by
on 2013-06-22 14:56:00 UTC
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- I got pretty much what I was expecting, except that I became closer to the other users here more than I had known was possible online. I think I'm maybe a little unique in that I enjoy PPC writing less for the humor and more for the feeling of exploring the Word Worlds.
2. I've never left, and I really can't imagine myself leaving. I'm just too mentally involved with the setting.
3. I think many newbies get the wrong idea about what goes on in here. A lot who come from TV Tropes seem to expect a more aggressive bashing of badfic and authors than what we actually tolerate.
Honestly, I rather like that not many people join constantly. I like the PPC being a small community of friendly folks. It's manageable and interconnected.
- I got pretty much what I was expecting, except that I became closer to the other users here more than I had known was possible online. I think I'm maybe a little unique in that I enjoy PPC writing less for the humor and more for the feeling of exploring the Word Worlds.
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The nice thing about doing this research... by
on 2013-06-22 17:37:00 UTC
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... was looking down the list of the newbies who did hang around. I recognised almost all the names! I always think of myself as being incapable of learning anyone's name who hasn't been here for several years, but I actually can! Heck, one of them's my current beta!
So that was nice. The ability to have increase without confusion, I mean.
hS -
Another data point for you by
on 2013-06-22 13:05:00 UTC
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1 - I started reading various missions from TVTropes links, then found the wiki and read more missions, interludes and backstory, etc before joining.
I didn't really even think about joining/getting involved myself until I'd exhausted almost all the content in familiar continua and thought 'well what am I supposed to do now, I want more stories dammit!' and then realised that maybe I should write my own!
I didn't really have any expectations for the community, although I did lurk on the Board for a while to get an idea for how things work.
2 - I have drifted away and back due to my tendency to be interested in so many things at once and yet only have a finite amount of time to dedicate to them all (when I finish those flux capacitors, that problem will go away. Muahahaha... *ahem*).
However, I have never lost interest, and even when I'm not posting or writing, I'll be lurking around. What keeps my interest is the massive shared world with infinite possibilities, the constant stream of new stories to read, and the many plotbunnies I keep thinking up for my own agents!
3 - I imagine it's partly the nature of Internet communities (VM convered this point below far better than I could), and partly the complexity of our shared continuity.
I am distinctly not saying that this complexity is bad (it's one of the reasons I love the PPC!), but it could well put people off who don't want to spend the time investigating and discovering it all. They may then drift away because they feel they would have to fill their headspace with it in order to get involved, rather than picking it up as they go along. -
I'm not gone, I just take unexpected hiatuses. by
on 2013-06-22 12:49:00 UTC
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Yes, I have my cons about the board, but they're far outweighed by the pros and my general good nature, so I just tend to overlook them.
I was actually expecting this place to be way more hardcore when I first joined almost a year ago, and ended up being pleasantly surprised that it was more lax instead.
When I failed to get permission, I only turned down a second try because I realized that I wasn't actually all that interested in writing missions - I was fairly new then, I just thought it was a status symbol more than anything, so I didn't put my level best in to begin with, and I was bogged down in real life with other matters so it wasn't really something I could focus on.
Nowadays, with everything settling back down, the only reason I'm not on more is because I don't feel that it's an obligation of mine to be ever-present on the board, and thus tend to forget that I have membership here at all.
That, and I've found myself getting into Library of the Damned and writing more MSTs, which are really distracting in and of themselves. Not to mention my ongoing large writing projects, and just basically living my life.
Which, speaking of, got a bit more hectic due to an unexpected death in the family.
But yes - like my DA journal says, I'm not dead, I'm just a bit more quiet than usual. -
Re: On Retention by
on 2013-06-22 06:53:00 UTC
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1/ Before you joined the PPC community, what did you think you were getting into? How did it match up to your expectations?
I really had no expectations when I joined. I had been reading fanfic for a couple of years, and I had gotten extremely annoyed (and sometimes disgusted--ask me what my first slash story I ran across was. I dare you.) with various fics, I had never thought there was anything to be done about it. One day I ran across one of IndeMaat's missions on the pit, and sort of followed her here like a lost puppy.
2/ If at any point you have drifted away, why? And what brought you back?
Hurt feelings and Drama played a big part in drifting. Feeling extremely disconnected has played a big part in having difficulty in coming back fully. I like Tolkien, but I am no where near as dedicated as the original group. I am not into anime or any of the video games that have been popular topics with excited newbies lately. For a while there were at least a few others that I had some shared fandoms with, but they drifted off, and it has just been difficult for to jump back in when I feel like I am only following a small percentage of what is being said, and no one is able to follow what I want to say.
What keeps me coming back?
The PPC. This is the most awesome shared world I have ever seen. The backstory, the interactions between people's agents and missions, the little projects that people start to bring the group closer, the wiki, the work people do to put order to the chaos that is the PPC, the Ironic Overpower. I've been around 3 1/2 years, even though part of that has been marginally involved, and it has just sort of become part of my narrative to think of things in terms that the PPC uses. How could I permanently leave when it has wormed it's way that far into my life?
3/ Why do you think so many people don't stick around?
Wrong expectations when they arrived--especially from a couple of sources of arrival, qualms/fears that we are bullying authors, real life (the PPC is getting older, more careers, marriages, and children than there used to be*), loss of Internet access (this got me for 3-4 months last year), incredibly steep learning curve to get fully engaged in the culture of the shared world.
*My oldest is a teenager now. Can you believe it? I have a kid older than some of our members, and my baby is going to Kindergarten this year. I feel so old. -
Oh gods, I have no idea. by
on 2013-06-22 01:56:00 UTC
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If I had to guess, I'd say it's something between just The Nature of The Beast - people often start things, join clubs, enter forums, and wind up not sticking around because they forget to come back, or life gets busy, or something else comes up, and I think that happens to a lot of things and a lot of people. But also, we... do have an unorthodox sort of forum here, and I do think people get thrown off by that. (This is not an invitation to start debating about The 'Board vs. a hypothetical T-Board again, or what have you.) But this 'Board is very unique, in this day and age, and I've noticed a lot of newbies comment on their confusion at it. I wouldn't be surprised if that's part of the issue some people have.
Other than that, I guess, what other people have said - we wind up not being what they expect, for whatever reason. Either we're too serious, or we take writing too seriously, or we're too off-the-walls, or they expected to get Permission and be having madcap adventures or Serious Grimdark adventures, and that didn't work out.
I don't think you're scary, hS. You do... loom, a bit. You did when I was a newbie, anyway - now, either I've grown a tolerance for looming, or I've grown, without realizing it. I've been accused of speaking, IRL, as if I always know the answer, or am convinced of my accuracy on a subject, and told it comes off as authoritative/arrogant. I think online, when one speaks with both intelligence and a measure of confidence, people sometimes get the idea that this person should not be argued with, and you get the impression of looming, instead of arrogance.
(I really, really hope that came off as friendly offering of explanation, rather than snapping-turtle critique, because it really is just friendly observation and I do not think of you as arrogant at all.)
Anyway. Questions.
1)
Well, it was recommended to me by someone who had taught me the basics of Elizabethan grammar, and was a brilliant writer and mod who was slightly notorious for her high grammatical standards. I'd read the Original Series, exchanged a single e-mail with Jay about permission, and enjoyed OFUM. So I suppose that was the community I was looking for - good writers, with high standards for their writing and canon, and a healthy dose of humor and friendliness. And, more or less, that's what you were. And are still, I think, for the most part.
2)
Once or twice, I'm sure. For most of the past eight years, though, I've checked the 'Board either daily or close to it, reading topics that catch my eye and skimming everything else. There were a few nasty drama flare-ups, multiple years ago, when I made the decision to leave, at least for a few months. Every single time, I found myself checking the 'Board daily -anyway-, because I'd formed the strong habit, and the URL was ingrained in my muscle memory. (I never wanted to leave permanently because Dann was here, and I couldn't get up the nerve to talk to him outside of a PPC context.)
So I guess that would be it. Drama has made me think about drifting away, or setting distances, but so many of my friends are here - this is like a home, I never could.
3)
I guess I answered that one up front? I don't know why, not really. I see people drift in and out of forums all the time, and the IRC, where I'm more vocal, seems to have a core of regulars that's grown quite a bit, and it's slow-growth these days, but we get new people still, who come in every few days and stick around. -
*sigh* by
on 2013-06-21 22:06:00 UTC
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This is why I don't often welcome newbies. Yes, I know everyone's different. Yes, I know that it's a friendly gesture. But it seems to me a lot of people just post their newbie thread and then never come back. It's like welcoming a person to a party and then watching them leave after five minutes.
So, to your questions:
1/ Before you joined the PPC community, what did you think you were getting into? How did it match up to your expectations?
I knew exactly what I was getting into. I read OFUM and HFA and HFA referenced the PPC, so I read the Original Series. Then when I started writing OFAS, I went looking for information on OFUs and stumbled upon the wiki. That was last summer, and I read a lot of missions and wiki articles and sketched out my agents and their backstories (I've reworked them since, but I started the process). I actually debated on whether to to join. I felt it was wrong to make fun of people's fic like that, so I figured I might just write PPC stories for my own enjoyment and not post them online. But I read several of the FAQs and different works around the wiki and decided I wanted to be part of the community. Then I introduced myself in October.
I don't think I had many expectations. If anything, the community was even more welcoming and friendly than I expected.
2/ If at any point you have drifted away, why? And what brought you back?
I haven't been posting as much recently, but that was because I was writing my first mission. (I got permission in January...) But I was lurking, and I started posting again because I saw things to comment on.
3/ Why do you think so many people don't stick around?
It depends on the individual person and their expectations, and then a) how well those expectations fit with the actual PPC and b) how good they are at adjusting when something doesn't fit their expectations. That's all I can say for sure.
A bit of speculation, though:
They don't know what they're getting into. They've somehow found the PPC in a way that doesn't involve actually reading any PPC materials, and they...decide to join a community...for the heck of it? *shrugs* It's not like we require a lot of commitment, it's just that they don't think through their first post and then, maybe, they find that the PPC isn't for them. I don't know, it just baffles me, since I was a wiki-lurker for months before joining and agonized over my first post.
That also goes for the 'Hi I've just joined can I have Permission?' people. They didn't think to go read the materials, for some odd reason. Like I said, maybe it's just incomprehensible to me because I read the materials multiple times before joining.
Those aren't great statistics, but I don't think there's anything we can do. We're welcoming and friendly, and we link people to our policies. It's them, and their expectations, not us. -
Is posting return messages after a hiatus mandatory? ...Oops (nm by
on 2013-06-21 21:38:00 UTC
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-
Absolutely not. by
on 2013-06-21 22:06:00 UTC
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In fact, given that some people do it when they've been away for a week or two, I'd say it's often a bad idea.
But, I can only use what's on the Board. Actually it's perfectly possible to spot unmentioned hiatuses - if a person doesn't post for two months and then starts again, say - but that would take a lot of peering at the numbers. So I just used this as a 'ballpark figure'.
hS -
I'm still around, I just don't always have much to say. :P by
on 2013-06-21 20:25:00 UTC
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Of course, I did disappear for two years, so...
Anyway, the questions.
1) It was long enough I don't actually remember what I thought I was getting into, I just thought it'd be fun to write for and the setting seemed pretty neat. It's matched up pretty well, for the most part.
2) I've drifted away a couple times - way, waaaaay back it was because I thought the community was dead, and then I'm not sure why back in 2011-ish. I'd always had a hard time finishing missions and stuff, and wasn't sure how to make them interesting - for a bit I just plain ran out of ideas. I'll not get into the various dramas that were going on back then, because I don't feel right dragging it all back up two years later when I've been trying to improve my behaviour and be less annoying and such, but between all that, my home life worsening and dealing with all sorts of real life stuff, including getting a job with a newspaper, eventually I just sort of forgot about the place. I came back when I stumbled on one of my stories and felt really guilty about abandoning it and the PPC as a whole.
3) I think a lot of it is people who aren't willing to wait out the permission process, don't really know what to do here or get shy and busy with real life. It's really just a guess though, and likewise I'm not sure what to do to get people to stick around. I'll have to think on it a lot more. -
Well... by
on 2013-06-21 19:35:00 UTC
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I know that I joined the PPC because I thought it'd be a fun place to learn about bad stories, how to write better, and do a few sporkings of my own. When I left, it was because real life got so busy I couldn't check the Board very often, and I just sort of fell away (then came back, and am hanging on with my teeth to avoid falling away again now that I have no regular Internet access).
As for people not sticking around...well, I'd probably attribute it to shyness and Real Life. Also, you people can be pretty scary! Especially you, hS. -
It's the horns, isn't it? They always alarm people. by
on 2013-06-21 20:15:00 UTC
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-- no, but really, am I scary? How so? You're making me nervous.
hS -
The horns are fine! The wings and fire-whip are terrifying. by
on 2013-06-22 19:06:00 UTC
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Wait, no, that's a Balrog, not you. Maybe it is the horns?
Less flippantly: people take you seriously. That's part of it. I don't know why or how your word became Set In Stone, but I sympathize with much... er... sympathy. And you work pretty hard to keep this from becoming a problem, and it is awesome that you do, since for some incredibly strange reason, the community does still have a habit of pedestaling you.
So you combine intelligent, articulate speech/typing, with a vast knowledge of the PPC and a willingness to answer questions, raise questions, and explain things to people when it's called for... and a community that insists on thinking of you as the Elder One*... and somehow, you get people who shriek and flinch when you post on their threads, and I am sorry, not least because I do not know the answer.
But I hope you don't take it too hard, or anything, because most people do eventually realize that you're just another silly writer-folk like us.
*I always thought Elcalion was a bit older than you, and I do not know why. Odd. -
To me, it's not so much that you're scary. by
on 2013-06-22 13:19:00 UTC
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Trust me, I've met plenty of people in real life who I regret ever spreading one word to, and one nearly took my life for no discernable reason other than "because he felt like it."
For me, it's more that I'm a victim of "emotions don't translate well over the internet" - you probably don't mean any harm in what you say, but due to the pure neutrality of the written word as opposed to the spoken word, I sometimes misread your posts as being arrogant or trying to come of as authoritative in the wrong way.
The life I lead has taught me to seriously dislike people of arrogant or false-authoritative natures, so I sometimes find myself getting frustrated or cynical when I see a post by you, and I have to reel it in.
So, yeah. I'm not scared, and don't feel less in thy holy presence; it's more that I sometimes lose you in translation and unintentionally make a villain out of you where I shouldn't.
It's similar with Neshomeh at times - my mind misreads her words as being coddling and oversweet, or little more than a sugar-coated backhand, when she's probably doing nothing of the sort, and so I have to force myself not to see an overbearing librarian.
Likewise, I imagine some people see me as some clumsy, bumbling, headstrong know-it-all sarcastic dolt who breathes in bile and breathes out apathy, when in reality I can barely even get mad at anybody unless they really are doing something worth getting upset over. It's just not in my nature to see the bad in people unless items shoved in my face - my humor is more scathing than my real-life personality, and I sometimes walk into stupid mistakes that get people up in arms and put me on the defensive, that's honestly all it is with me.
So, to recap my rant: it's not you, it's the internet's crappy emotional output. -
?---? by
on 2013-06-23 10:30:00 UTC
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Well, that was weird. Since people seem to be saying I come across as arrogant/'authoritative in the wrong way' with distressing frequency, as a general request (ie, not just to Specs - this is the result of long thought-processes, not a direct reaction), can someone throw me a couple of recent examples where I've come across this way?
(Also, I don't have a Holy Presence - that's my wife :P)
hS -
This is good to know. by
on 2013-06-23 05:10:00 UTC
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Though, I'm not sure how "overbearing librarian" fits with "coddling and oversweet," since my idea of an overbearing librarian is the kind that is constantly telling people to be quiet and scolding them for getting fingerprints on the pages, and my idea of coddling is telling people how splendid and delightful it is that they love books so much even if they're tearing the pages out and eating them. I'll cop to a certain kinship with the former, though. I like making order and it bugs me when people don't notice it, or get it wrong, or ignore it.
If it helps, I do tend to pick my words carefully, and I do try to avoid confrontations and heated arguments as much as possible while not keeping silent about things that matter to me. I figure I'm not going to be very successful at making points and winning people over to my point of view if I let my emotions get the better of me and just blurt things out without considering the ramifications, and definitely not if I go off on a rant every time some little thing irritates me—but I can see how what I call "exercising restraint" and "picking my battles" could come off as sugar-coating or coddling if you're the type of person who prefers to be told things bluntly. If that's the case, I can adjust my approach where you're involved in the future.
I find that most people don't respond well to bluntness, though. The truth hurts; you catch more flies with honey than vinegar; if you can't say somethin' nice, don't say nothin' at all; etc.
~Neshomeh -
Talk to me however you choose. by
on 2013-06-23 10:07:00 UTC
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I can definitely vouch for your approach. And, true to what I said, you only mean well in what you do, but it's hard to express over the internet, and so some bits are lost in translation.
I guess I've been raised to see coddling and overbearing down to the absolute smallest point. Where I grew up, you were either pushed around and mocked or spoken down to and given a plastic smile, and after eighteen years of that, it definitely has stuck with me, so I'm way more critical now of people who wear a face of niceness around me.
And, as I said, I sometimes see people choosing their words and misread it as something more nefarious than what is, so I tend to just let my passion fly when I get on a topic that matters to me. It definitely has a habit of upsetting people, but I find when I choose my words and try to avoid confrontation, I get written off as some kind of spineless wimp.
I'm kind of in a bind anywhere I go, so it's somewhat unfamiliar for me that people here on the board are as genuine as they are.
Hence, I have to hold back a lot of misguided thoughts about people - like, trying to explain a point and getting frustrated when it doesn't click becoming "overbearing librarian", or being polite and well-mannered being turned into "coddling."
If you ever need to be blunt with me, by all means do so, because I can definitely handle it. But, as I said at the start, I'm not much of a combatant personally, and can definitely vouch for a peaceful, unbiased and carefully worded approach.
Meanwhile, I'll just continue being good guy SC, how about that? -
I never thought you were scary! by
on 2013-06-22 04:11:00 UTC
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I might've been a little intimidated, though. You've done so much for the PPC that I just feel inadequate, like I'm not worthy to share your cyberspace.
But you're so nice I can't be scared or intimidated for too long! You oldbies have my utmost respect. -
Can't put my finger on it, but... by
on 2013-06-21 22:53:00 UTC
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You do seem scary to me as well.
Someone who only appeared here about...a month ago, maybe.
Maybe it's subconscious. -
These aren't awesome statistics, no. by
on 2013-06-21 17:27:00 UTC
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And even fewer stick around for the real long haul - we have Ye Olde Permisshun-Givvers, of course, such as yourself, Neshomeh and Elcalion, who have been here since the early years. And I've been here five years now and seen faces come and go. Five! It doesn't feel like it.
1/ Before you joined the PPC community, what did you think you were getting into? How did it match up to your expectations?
I honestly didn't have any prior expectations. I just understood it was a society of people who killed really bad fics and I wanted to join in.
2/ If at any point you have drifted away, why? And what brought you back?
I've never really drifted away - been unable to access for periods because of lack of internet, but never left and then come back. I don't think I could, I like being here too much, even if all I do is lurk most of the time.
3/ Why do you think so many people don't stick around?
Hm. Maybe because they expect continual madcap adventures and stories and we just don't work like that? -
I'm flattered... by
on 2013-06-22 04:30:00 UTC
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But I'm not actually a PG (for all that I may be able to claim the Ye Olde status on other things!).
For my part, having been here for (counts)... eight years (wow!) here's my thoughts.
1. Before joining the PPC, I expected the great community that it was (and still is, albeit different). I saw how people had great collaborative things going on like the Alumia exorcism (which I think was shortly before I joined) and loved the idea of everyone's spinoffs starting to merge together and people's agents being borrowed and appearing in multiple places. And it's great that we still seem to have that (e.g. the Blackout, which I'm just getting up to speed with). That said, the tenor of the Board has definitely changed, IMHO - we're no longer a primarily LoTR organisation and we perhaps have a smaller critical mass of regularly posting people than we did in the days of yore. We seem not to have the big discussions we used to - at one stage I recall massive philosophical discussions on sometimes-controversial issues, and all done with respect and without flaming.
2. Variety of reasons. Real Life is a biggie (including the year when I didn't have internet at home and I wasn't 100% comfortable posting to the board from work); at times all these big things seemed to have happened on the board (e.g. the Macrovirus epidemic) and I delurk and go "what the hell has been happening?" and feel all confused. But I always come back - although I average 4 years to write a mission (at least based on my current output!) I still have stories I want to write and I still want to be part of the PPC, even if sometimes it takes me a few weeks to catch up on everything I've missed.
3. Maybe it's a combination of the immense history the PPC has accumulated over the years - a sense that it's a lot of precedent to get your head around - coupled with times when there doesn't seem to be much happening on the board (or, if you're in a weird time zone like I am, the IRC seems forlorn and deserted), and you feel like there's not much happening right now. Which is misleading (there's so much new stuff everytime I delurk and come back) but I can see how it would be easy to think that not much is happening at times.
That said, as you can tell by this post, I'm in a non-lurking phase right about now, and hopefully can keep active enough around here to meet all these gosh darn newbies that keep on traipsing on my lawn. You kids!!!!
Elcalion, feeling old all of a sudden -
I am still alive! by
on 2013-06-21 14:02:00 UTC
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Sorry for not posting in ages, but my real life situation is a little hectic right now. Currently I am visiting relatives in Arkansas, and have only now had opportunity to post. I won't get back home infill July 24th, so I'm likely to fade into the distance again untill that time.
In answer to your questions:
1. I expected a fun community of writers with whom I could laugh with and improve my writing. While the writing part has not happened much yet due to procrastination on my part, I have definitely laughed. And cried when I read badfic.
2. Vacation is my problem at the moment, being interested in other things is the other problem. So much media to consume, so little time to create.
3. Other interests. I personally don't know why, but that is what makes sense to me. -
Wow someone else has been to Arkansas? by
on 2013-06-22 06:23:00 UTC
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I didn't think I'd ever see another PPCer in Arkansas, even just to visit relatives. Cool!
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Yes, you are. by
on 2013-06-21 14:55:00 UTC
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You're one of the five 'active returnbies' I'm sure about - along with Ivan, OpinionedAngel, Riese and Specs. I also keep thinking Laburnum's around, but can't actually remember seeing her...
hS -
Whoo! Active Returnbie status! by
on 2013-06-23 10:17:00 UTC
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...I feel like that's more of a Phyrric victory. Dunno why.
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What, not me? by
on 2013-06-23 00:18:00 UTC
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I mean, I'm one of those sporadic returnbies, but I do consider myself active.
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I think I vaguely recognise your name? by
on 2013-06-23 10:10:00 UTC
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:P Nah, you just didn't post a specific 'I'm back!' thread during 2012. Like I say, the stats aren't perfect, but they work as a first approximation.
hS -
Ah, I'm that little known then. by
on 2013-06-23 13:21:00 UTC
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Yeah, I didn't really post an I'm back thing; I just plugged an OFU instead.