Subject: Re: Permission Givers
Author:
Posted on: 2011-09-18 02:14:00 UTC
I am going to be honest here. I have seen Maslab instigate a fair bit of drama in the IRC. I don't think that is a good thing for a PG.
This is, obviously, just one man's opinion. I would like some more people to weigh in so we get a better picture.
I have been thinking, and I know others are with me on this, that we need a few more PGs. The ones we have at the moment have either disappeared or have been consumed by Real Life. So, I propose we start nominations for at least two new PGs.
First nomination is for Miah.
The question I have is this: When are we moving on to the voting stage? Or are we delaying due to current events?
We are delaying due to current events. I want to give everything a chance to settle down before we continue on.
I do have one question for everyone, though.
Should we:
1) start from scratch
2) keep the nominations and ask for any new nominations
3) we continue on to the voting step from here
I will post a new thread in a few days and use whichever option has the most support.
I, personally, vote for option 2
Nominations are non-binding, no need to go through and nominate all the same people again.
And I'll decline my nomination.
As someone else pointed out, it's the voting that counts. If it turns out that one of the people who was nominated is actually the incarnation of primordial evil (which I don't think happened... unless I missed it?) we can just... not vote for them.
hS
Well, is it too late to nominate Cthuhlu? Because if not, we can still get primordial evil on the list.
Why cast your vote for the lesser of two evils?
I don't see a need to restart, if people can just cast new nominations. I agree with Data, mostly the same people will be voted in.
Most of the same people will probably be nominated, and it's the voting itself that counts anyway.
I'd say we should start again, with a clean slate.
Recent events may have changed who people will vote for, but honestly going through the process of nominating the people we do want to vote for again just sounds like too much work.
Then again, I'm kind of a lazy jerk, so maybe that shouldn't count. I dunno.
I'm terrible at coming up with specific reasons for things, but I think he'd be good at it. Uh... yeah.
DML is a good guy at heart, with a great eye for detail. He puts in 200 percent to all work he does and wrote one of the best, most comprehensive Mary Sue definitions I have ever seen. :)
This is a pretty huge responsibility. Perhaps if this had come up about a month ago, I would have said something along the lines of "I generally do not mix well with responsibility. Regretfully, I must decline."
Since then, I've had to deal with 14 kids with ODD.
If I can handle them, I'm pretty sure I can handle being a PG.
With that said, I accept the nomination.
Everything I have to say on the matter has probably already been said, but here goes.
I was surprised to see FlareShard nominated so quickly - she only got permission two days ago - but, thinking about it, I think she'd be great for the job. She's clearly a good writer and able to tell good writing from bad, and she's quite active in the community, and always keeps in the spirit of the PPC. She'd have my vote.
Firstly, second for Tranum and Flareshard. They are both steady in chat and good writers. They both also get the spirit of the PPC.
I'd also like to nominate Callista. She has done a lot of work on the wiki in the past. While she has had reservations about getting started writing missions, I believe she does get the spirit of the PPC and she has excellent grammar and writing skills.
For Maslab, he has had a tendency to have bad timing on occasion, that much is true. He does have long experience with moderating a rather fractious video game group, though. He knows the IRC commands inside and out and has been very steady in enforcing the few consequences that our group has in IRC. He is also a daily fixture in IRC, and has been for a very long time, which says that he should continue to be a fixture if he is made a PG. For the I'd be able to vote for him.
For Joe, I am not sure I could second him. He has not been around much, and that is part of why we are wanting to nominate new PGs, so at the basic level it doesn't make much sense to vote in someone who already is not around much.
I am really surprised and flattered by the number of people willing to nominate me. I'm not sure I have as much confidence in me as everyone else seems to have, but I will accept the nomination and will do my best by the community. I really love the PPC, and want it to continue on.
Miah, I'm seriously honored that you'd suggest me. I appreciate it and it makes me happy.
However, you're right when you say that I haven't started writing missions yet; and I think to be a good PG, I would have to have a few under my belt, because in order to know what makes a good agent I'd need to have some experience using agents with various traits in missions.
When I do have some missions done, go ahead and re-nominate me the next time the question comes up; but for now--I'm just not experienced enough. Thanks anyway, though.
I am totally willing to beta people's fics, give advice, etc. I'm good at grammar and I like to collect little factlets, and I want to be more involved anyway. I'm on the beta list, but so far I haven't been asked that much--so consider this an open invitation to anybody who needs a grammar/spelling/style/fact check. Two sets of eyes are better than one!
I know I've only done one mission and it was a while ago, but I do enjoy looking over works other people have done. I do plan on sticking around, as I do like the community.
Which is why, I think, I'm going to have to decline that nomination. I'm flattered to have been nominated at all, but it is a valid point that I haven't been around lately.
Give it a few months, let me prove that I'm able to stay around, and I think I'd stand a much better chance.
Miah and Tranum(Tray-Gnome?) for me.
I think I thirding Tray-Gnome at this point would be unnecessary, right? If it isn't, I'm thirding him.
First things first. I second Tranum's nomination. He's done some good work and he's got a good grip on how the community works.
Now for the big rant. For some reason I can't really put my finger on, this whole PG selection process has got my dander up. I don't want the PPC to become a source of frustration for me, so I'm gonna vent a little bit. Sorry.
The following is what I'm looking for in a Permission Giver:
Demonstrated Presence on Both the Board and IRC
A Permission Giver that only shows up in the IRC is useless. The opposite - a Boarder who never sets foot in the IRC - is also true. Good PGs should not only be able to fuction in both settings, they should be a regular presence.
Substantive Constructive Criticism
Permission Givers must be harsh but fair judges of writing. There are too many one-line 'That was hilarious!' reviews in the PPC. I know, I've fallen into that trap before. One of the goals of Permission Givers, as the top dogs of our little internet kennel, should be to guide, promote, and improve the works of their peers. They probably should be beta readers, too.
Community Experience
The PPC is its own universe, with its own rules and quirks. I want a Permission Giver who knows those quirks first hand, who has a few missions under her or his belt already. I want to see that they know how to write a good mission.
I hope that didn't come off as too much. Just felt like I needed to get that out there for some outside consideration.
Demonstrated Presence on Both the Board and the IRC...
We have quite a few PGs who were around before the IRC and haven't touched it. What about them?
Substantive Constructive Criticism-
This one, I can get behind, fully and completely.
Community Experience -
I don't know if I agree. Mostly because that would mean I have to either give up the Hat or write a mission. Do Cafeteria Workers count?
We have quite a few PGs who were around before the IRC and haven't touched it. What about them?
[jokingly]Obviously they need to get with the times. Come on, you fogies! Embrace modern technology already![/jokingly]
As for the Community Experience bit, that's just what I would prefer. That's nothing against you or any other PG without a published mission to their name.
Honestly, I tried being part of the IRC way back when, but but my time zone means that it's very hard for me to be there at times that most of you are. In the end, it just wouldn't be possible even if Real Life wasn't eating me alive, and I'm sure that's true for a lot of other PGs. That said, I avoid making the final call on a Permission request from someone who has been active almost only on the IRC. I think that's fair.
I think you are right about the need for community experience, PC. However, I think you are coming at it from the wrong end. I believe it is far more important for them to have read and have a knowledge of the PPC canon and spin-offs than to have written any of it.
I see it as the difference between studying a video game on its associated wikia site or TV Tropes page verses actually playing it for yourself. You can get a great grasp of the material that way, no doubt about that, but it isn't the same experience as if you sat down and played it. Or wrote it, going back to the PPC as an example.
I think it is the difference between playing a video game and creating a video game, actually. Since one is experiencing what another has created, versus creating something yourself. I have never created a video game, but I know a good one from a bad one, when I play them.
A Permission Giver needs to be able to distinguish good writing from bad, but you don't have to be a writer to do that. The Permission Giving process has little to do with their abilities as writers, but everything to do with them reading.
I think there are arguments for both sides. For myself, I would prefer that all PGs have written at least one piece of prose in the PPC world, even if it's not a mission.
I second the nomination for FlareShard, and add a nomination for Tray-Gnome Tranum. He's quick to joke, slow to anger, and has done very well both on his own and with co-writers so far. And from what he's said in the chat, he's good at dealing with groups of people (reading kids Lovecraft totally counts!), so as long as he doesn't go into shock and/or kill me for nominating him...
(He's a zombie squirrel from Gunnerkrigg Court! What could possibly go wrong?)
I'd like to nominate WarriorJoe and Miah, since I trust them both to be good PGs, at least from what I have experienced from both in the little time I was here now.
----
To the people who are concerned about me as a PG, I can fully understand that - I am still new, and probably still have some emotional baggage and unnecessary defense mechanisms left from the old community I came from (as some in the IRC might have already heard), and I'm still working hard on getting rid of those, since you guys are worth it.
Now I'm not trying to make any excuses, I just want to explain why I'm the way I am now, and I want you to know that I have come to love this place enough to have decided not to leave it behind anytime soon.
This community and the people here got me back into accepting my work for what it's worth, even if I still have a long way to go ahead of me, and that already means a lot to me.
I would have never guessed that I would get Permission this fast, let alone people actually vouching for me to become a Permission Giver (to be honest, I almost fell out of my chair when Neshomeh asked me what I would think of her nominating me), so... wow. Holy carps.
Even people asking me whether I were interested in doing co-writes with them or joining their RPs is something I never expected to happen this fast, and... damn, I'm getting misty-eyed as I write this, it's almost embarrassing. You guys made me feel like a part of something great, and this makes me happy beyond words.
... Thank you. And sorry for that sappy rant.
I have thought about this for a long time now, and I have come to the conclusion that I'm simply not ready to take on this kind of responsibility yet.
I feel bad about disappointing anyone who put their trust in me, but I have decided that I would disappoint people more if I accepted and didn't do a good job as a PG. I am simply too new here, and I have still a lot to learn - especially considering the emotional baggage mentioned in my previous post. It's just that I don't feel worthy of this position yet, and I wish to prove to people that I can be a good PG... in the future.
Right now, I'm just too much of a new kid, and although I feel very honored that not only one, but two established PGs trust me enough to actually consider me good enough to be a PG, I do have to consider the opinions of the other Boarders, and those have more importance right now. I want to be a PG the people deserve, not a PG because of some popularity nominations - and by that, I don't want to be rude to the people who nominated me, but I feel the same as the people who think that simple enthusiasm and zeal do not make up for a lack of experience.
I want to express my gratitude for everyone who believed in me, and I hope that by the time the next PG elections come around, I will be ready - and worthy - to be the Permission Giver this community deserves.
Thank you.
...I don't think we've ever talked before, but after that speech, I might just have supported your nomination anyway.
Good on you. This is exactly the kind of thing I'd want to hear out of people who might be leading this community - not the declination, exactly (it'd hardly work!), but the foresight and responsible attitude, as well as being humble enough to say "I'm not ready".
So, you're most welcome, and you can be sure that when you do feel ready, I plan to support your next nomination.
:)
- Sedri
We've sort of missed explaining how this works (or at least, how it has worked in the past), so before it goes on longer:
Phase one, which we're in, is nominations. Nominees need to at least be seconded to be candidates. This'll go on until there aren't any more new nominations.
Phase two: Nominees must accept or decline their nominations! We can't force the PG Hat on someone who doesn't want it!
Phase three: We vote on those who accept. Assuming we're definitely looking for two new PGs, if there are only two candidates, they've got a pretty good chance of being voted for. {; P Any more than that, everybody gets two votes, and the folks with the most become PGs. This will happen in a new thread to avoid confusion.
Hope that helps!
~Neshomeh
I think everything relevant about Miah's nomination has already been said.
While I can see why people have reservations about FS becoming a Permission Giver, I don't share them. In my opinion a PG needs to have a knowledge of what constitutes good writing (yup), good knowledge what the PPC is about (yup) and the trust of the community. I for one can't think of any reason why we shouldn't trust her.
I don't think the fact that she only recently got Permission should count against her, there's much more to the community than actually having Permission.
((Oh, and in case people wonder how I can say that having not been around much recently: I have been lurking, I just didn't have the time to actively participate! :P))
I would support Miah as a Permission Giver. FlareShard? Eh... no. New blood is all very well and good, but I would prefer someone with more experience within the community.
Seconding the vote for Miah. I can't really say about FlareShard, but I'm leery of giving the PG Hat to anyone who's only just got Permission themselves.
I nominate WarriorJoe for PG. He's been around a decent amount of time, has always come across as level-headed and has a good grasp of the spirit of the PPC.
I assume that WarriorJoe is the same person as Joe in the Chat. That would make sense but, if that is not the case, then someone should correct me and I will correct my mistake immediately.
My concern comes from a conversation that I witnessed in the chat recently. It was a discussion of fanfiction in the MLP:FiM continuum, and specifically fics like "Cupcakes" that go against the established mood of the canon. Joe said that he does not like anything that goes against the mood of a canon and that anything that did was badfic. Other people in the chat at the time explained their points of view about how a story can run counter to the established mood and still be good fic. However, Joe's mind seemed to be made up, and that was that.
The concern that I have is this: What happens if someone asks permission and their request contains material that Joe doesn't like? Will it be an automatic 'no' because anything that he doesn't like is bad? It all comes down to Your Kink Is Not My Kink, which is a very important concept in the PPC. Not liking something doesn't make it bad.
So, that is my concern. And I feel like a complete jerk for doing this on a second nomination. I honestly have nothing against Maslab or Joe as people, and I apologize if they were offended by anything I said, though I still think it needed to be said.
Don't feel like a jerk for voicing concerns. The last thing we want is to vote in someone who's not right for the community. I would second the concerns about Maslab, he does have a tendency to start and be involved in drama. My concern for Joe is more on the basis that, for one, he's not very active on the 'Board, and two, he feels we as a community need more infrastructure/rules/ways to punish or deal with people who break rules. And I'm not really comfortable nominating him without first knowing that the community on the whole also feels that way.
Yeah, I'm the same person.
With regard to that--I have a number of gripes with Cupcakes that extend beyond it just being dark. For instance, it stretches the character of Pinkie Pie much, much too far for belief (and there was consensus on that, unless I remember incorrectly), and doesn't really do any favors to Rainbow Dash either. Furthermore, it uses "insanity = violence", which is a TERRIBLE (if terribly common) thing to do.
Contentwise, it actually reminds me of Agony in Pink. And if that's the first fic that I make an association with, then there is something VERY wrong.
Those are my COLLECTED arguments with regard to that particular story, and I'd like to apologize for the others. When I'm in IRC or any other kind of instant-communications chat my mouth sometimes moves faster than my brain can put the arguments together for it.
As for the infrastructure thing, I'm not going to deny it. I do believe that lack of infrastructure has gotten us into trouble in the past and has the potential to get us into trouble in the future. But I'm not going to try to FORCE a structure onto the PPC, because that would solve no problems and only create new ones.
As for the Board activity, all I can say is "I've been busy." I'm honestly surprised anyone remembers who I am let alone is willing to nominate me (though I'm certainly honored). But I'm not as busy now as I was, and I can always find the time.
I can't say anything about FlareShard as I just haven't been aroung enough to know. And... how long has Flare been around? My knee-jerk reaction to giving PG status to someone who only just got Permission is negative, largely because lots of people tend to vanish shortly after getting, but if there's enough of an argument...
'cause they're both awesome.
'Cause there are more than two.
~Neshomeh
Miah is a really good choice, and FlareShard too! I'll...second? Third? her nomination. Miah has been here a while and is very dependable. FlareShard is new and has a lot of spirit, already has a bunch of co-writes lined up. Good planner, that one. :P
I... fourth? the nomination for Miah.
I can't honestly vote for or against Flare Shard, what with me being gone the whole summer.
Another vote for Miah
My reasoning, since Flare just got Permission herself and is newer than PGs typically are: Well, that. A lot of PGs have faded away, and I'm hoping some fresher blood will last longer. ... God, that sounded creepy. But, yeah. We need some life in the ranks, and Flare is REALLY excited about being part of the community and having Permission. I think she gets what the community is about, and will keep it up for members present and future.
I like Miah for PG because she's active both on the Board and the IRC, she's been around a while, and she's a mom, which gives her a great skill set.
NOTE: Nominees have to accept their nomination before they can be voted in, so everyone knows.
~Neshomeh
FlareShard may be enthusiastic, but she's been around for barely two months. Energy doesn't equal leadership. Nothing against her personally, but it's simply too soon.
... but since I post on here once every blue moon or less, I can't really say who else I'd suggest.
Seconding Miah, and nominating Maslab as well. Dude's proved he's fairly rational most of the time both on the IRC and as an admin in another community.
I am going to be honest here. I have seen Maslab instigate a fair bit of drama in the IRC. I don't think that is a good thing for a PG.
This is, obviously, just one man's opinion. I would like some more people to weigh in so we get a better picture.
I would agree on that point--I really don't think Mas is the best option for a Permission Giver. If I'm being honest, he has a tendency to draw out issues longer than they need to be considered, which is not a good trait for a PG.