Subject: Re: Out of curiosity
Author:
Posted on: 2009-06-08 01:44:00 UTC
You'd have to ask Tawaki. He made the call, and it was well withing his right to do so. Makes-Things is one of those characters who seems to belong to everyone (which, or course, means we all have the right to bring him back...)
(Out of curiosity, and with no offense to Sara, doesn't a lot of the opening post seem directed at him?)
I have some confessions to make.
Firstly, I don't care about your drama. Your "epic" story arcs, your ZOMG SOOOO AWSUM Agents, your OMG THAR IS AN EMERGENCY WE GOTTA FIGHT AN HAVE AWSUM STUFF HAPPEN...did you ever stop to consider that PPC missions are meant to be...well, normal life for an Agent, as normal as the whole thing can be? You go in, you rant a bit, you snark, you kill the Sue, you leave. It's what we do. We're not here to attract attention; we're here to get the job done.
Secondly, I am not impressed by your big weapons. Please remember that we do this for the comedy and for the 'verses. And you know what? Being the underdog is funny. We're not supposed to be superior. It's why we call it the Duty. Because that's what it is...a duty, something that we want to do not because we get to be all flashy and use big weapons, but because worlds that we love are all the better for it. The job itself...we hate. But we do it for the effects that the work we do has, and people seem to have forgotten that.
Thirdly, I'd like to beat some sense into whoever decided that we should have Emergencies every other month. One of the things that makes something special is that it is few and far between, and this applies greatly to Emergencies. Once they happen annually, or even bi and trianually, they're not special anymore. They're boring and become trivial...which goes completely against the whole concept of an Emergency. It ties back into the comedy versus drama thing: drama is great, but it's not what the PPC is all about. Not to mention that it completely messes up the status quo. Sure, the death of Makes-Things was sad and plot-driving, but we needed him.
Fourthly, I understand that you really, really want to add to PPC canon, but don't forget that you do that just by writing missions. Consider leaving major decisions, like what Flower is going to be Head of which Department/Division up to the people who are directly affected by said decisions. Namely, the people writing for said Departments and Divisions. Think about it this way: you add a Flower to a Department that you don't evern write for. Good for you, you've just added to the canon, but you're not doing anything with it. But then someone wants to write in that Departemnt, and they're the first to do so. Wouldn't it maybe be their right, as authors actually working with that Flower, to decide the specifics of said Flower? They're the ones feeling the affects of the decision. Now, I'm not saying that only certain people should be allowed to add to the canon. I'm saying that certain things should be left to the people that they directly apply to.
Fifthly, I really don't care how many tropes you have in your mission. I don't care if your Agent has a BFG or CMOA...it's a mission, frak it, and frankly, for all of your tropes your sporkings are lacking. Bear in mind that there is a reason that something is on TVTropes: it's cliche and used all the time. So when you write it just like you see it on TVTropes, that's what your mission becomes: cliche and boring.
Finally, your originality stinks. Cool, your Agent is a taller-than-average man who can't be beat at fights physical or magical, and is also a very experienced Agent that nothing surprises anymore who is somewhat angsty because he has a bad past. Does he have any character flaws? Any little quirks that liven him up a bit? Does he have a unique personality? No? Then why should I care about him? And why is he any better than the Stus that we try so hard to kill? There's been a sudden influx of Agents that are more Sue/Stu than person, and it's not only saddening but bloody hypocritical. Take another look at your Agents...maybe you'll see that their originality is only on the surface. If so, I hope you'll do what you can to make them a true character.
There you have it. I hope it's been enlightening, because, at the moment, I want very little to do with the PPC community and where it's heading. I'm not saying that you're terrible people, I'm just saying that the actual PPCing itself is looking pretty shabby compared to how it was a few years ago when I first joined. So now I'm challenging you to look at yourself, to say, "I can do better than this," and then to proceed to do better than this (and don't think that I consider myself exempt from this, because I definitely don't).
Good luck,
Sara
Could we please stop talking about this subject and just get on with doing something else?
Many good points have been raised in this thread, and we all seem to be in agreement that all our writing could use improvement. We can't all be Jays and Acacias, after all.
But look where this thread has gone. People are actually contemplating LEAVING the PPC! I doubt that was anyone in this thread's intent. The theme of this thread was "hey, did you know your writing could be tuned up?" and not "GET OUT YOU BITCHES YOU MAKE THE PPC SUCK AND I'M A BETTER WRITER THAN YOU!" but I'm getting the feeling that some among us are getting the latter impression. This is no one's fault but the stress.
We want to write comedy? Well, this thread isn't putting anyone in the mood to write comedy. I applaud the attitude of everyone in here, but the feel of this thread gives me and probably many others the chills.
Sop, with all due respect, your honor, may we please adjourn the court?
... we could keep talking about it until it dies down naturally. From what I see, it's mostly whittled down to the discussion of Makes-Things and a few minor side-threads. The comments about leaving were all earlier, and haven't been added to.
Let the thread continue. It's had some positive effects (including getting me to actually write a mission), and the PPC Board is very good at not imploding, but discussing what needs discussing.
hS
I was just concerned, sorry. You're right, it hasn't split us apart as far as I can see.
I think everyone just needs to sit back, examine the problems, and try to find some solutions before things blow over completely. It's perfectly natural for a community as large as the PPC to have differences in opinions, and it can't be helped that someone is going to take issue withwhat someone else does.
But talking it out is probably the best way to deal with a big problem like this, because most times it dies out (as Huinesoron said) and generally clears the air. If people have a problem with something, getting that out in the open is probably better than not saying what you feel and letting it simmer away. Letting small irritations build up into something larger is never a good thing, and the PPC has weathered worse storms.
Don't you like the Dark Lord Geranium?
Was discussed multiple times on the board, after all. :P Wasn't a 'hey, where'd this come from, eh?'
Okay. Thanks for making me feel happies.
No squick, no excessive gore, no genderbending. Just some agents splatting Sues with a minimum of drama and maximum of snark. Trying to keep the rating down too, as my agents developed the habit of cursing too much during the squickfic missions and I need to do some more that everyone can enjoy. (Will have to lampshade that in a future mission: "It's R-rated. Obligatory swearing is obligatory." Excuse the troping.)
While on that topic, I can promise I will NEVER EVER use rape as a punchline again. I have a very dark sense of humour and I'd been reading a lot of Something Positive around the time I wrote the missions with Drip and the Trees. I am aware it's not funny in real life, and even in fiction it's not funny if something which counts as a person is on the giving or receiving end (unless it's a Fanficrants entry about how poorly-written it is, of course). I don't personally think it has the same dynamic if the victim's a much-hated badfic character and the attacker's a tree because nobody has ever been attacked by a tree in real life and therefore nobody can really be reminded of bad experiences or anything by it, but that was funny *one* time and I'll not use it again because I am not Randal Milholland and can't push my luck with it. Besides, the agents should have learned their lesson from whatever hell FicPsych put them through. They DID get in trouble for that in-universe, I just didn't make much of it onscreen because I couldn't find a way to make it funny or interesting.
Especially Krisprolls.
Chliever got a whoppingly low negative 4 on the Sue litmus test I put him through, but apparently, some take issue with the fact the the PPC would even recruit an agent of Chaos in the first place...
Your attitude alone throughout this thread has really impressed me, and attitude counts in my book. I think I gave you Permission in the first place, and I stand by it. You make me proud.
~Neshomeh
I already have my next mission in mind, and I'll try to take some of Sara's advice (and maybe even some of July's rather loud advice) to heart. One of July's complaints was that Chliever's diseasy nature doesn't seem to have any ramifications, and, well, you'll see. I've had this planned for a while, actually. Stay tuned!
Oh, and Sara? Sorry If I talked down to you in my rebuttal. Was not my intention to be condescending; I apologize.
Now this makes me glad I haven't gone and tried to write my own missions. Otherwise, Glod knows I would have been flamed to hell and back at some point. I'm sure that with my utter lack of writing experience, I would have ended up making some of the biggest Agent!Sues in PPC history. This is precisely the reason why I decided to never attempt PPCings before first gaining the ability to write good characters and stories. If I do end up trying, however, I'll try to keep this in mind and avoid that sort of thing.
There is a lot of rage around here.
I don't mind when people decide to add some extra things. The routine stuff gets kind of repetitive.
Having said that? Yeah. I get the feeling my characters are included in this volley. Given that I've got a pair of fragging Force-users, the PPC might be better served by my killing them off and just walking away.
But you know what? I like my characters, including their abilities, which are part of who they are. I like using them for this. I don't believe they're Sue/Stu. But what I believe probably doesn't matter terribly much. My characters have full personalities, and the few missions they have done were fairly according to the Duty.
But... I just don't know. If others feel the PPC has no place for them or for me... okay. I could just let things go back to normal for others.
I... really don't feel good now. Can't help but wonder how many people might actually loathe what I've been doing.
Force-users aren't a problem. The problem comes if they're, eg, Force users who use wands to channel the Force (although, considering we've got the Nightsisters, even that's not too farfetched), or if they use the Force to beat the point of the PPC around the head, or just Force-choke every 'Sue from a safe distance, or whatever. If they have full personalities, they're fine.
hS
Delurking after a couple of months away and saw this. Wow, drama.
I did have an idea for a mission I've been half-writing for, umm, two or three years now (I get easily distra...)
How about a midichlorian injection which would allow Agents to use Force powers for a few days while they (the midichlorians) were still in the system? Too far-fetched? I've been trying to work out how a non-Jedi agent could be able to take down a Jedi!Sue.
Elcalion, back from the dead of the net
Welcome back, Elcalion!
No one hates you or your Agents here. They're from Star Wars, it's perfectly reasonable they'd have the Force.
Only one person was raging, and after she calmed down she admitted that she was feeling ragey before she posted. She apologized.
As for what you say mattering, yes, yes it does. It's in the Constitution, in fact. If you're really that worried, try a Sue litmus test; I ran Chliever by one and he came out just fine.
Before I begin, I would like to warn anyone who plans on reading this that I'm not very experienced with the PPC, since I've only been here for about two months. I also tend to ramble.
I haven't written any missions, but I really hope I can keep these things in mind for them. I'm not planning on writing any emergencies. Sheesh. I thought the point was to kill the Sues and point out the flaws of the badfics. In fact, after I read TOS, I was dismayed to find out that Makes-Things had been killed nearly a year earlier from when I found the PPC. I guess it's stuck that way now, at least for me.
Personally, I like the way TOS was set up: fairly standard with extra humor and twists added in. There was that blue unicorn deal with Lux, a vacation at the OFUM, the barbeque, a few agent changes, and a department change, among other things. Both agents had their blatant flaws and good attributes.
Hopefully, since this came up before I began any missions, I can write out the mental storyline better. I don't want my characters to become total Sues. I shudder to think of what would happen then.
Anyway, I agree on most of these views and I really hope I don't end up tripping up on one of them. I just want to write and take a whack at the badfic I loathe. Good luck to all other newbies who plan to write missions!
...agreed, agreed, agreed. The reason I haven't been around here much has nothing to do with the influx of newbies (hell, we need newbies, and I for one welcome them with open arms) as much as it does with the sheer amount of drama and random PPC-wide emergencies that have been going on for quite a while.
And frankly, I don't care for it. Makes-Things is still alive in my personal canon, and he's going to stay that way for quite a while if I have anything to say about it.
Slightly after-the-fact, but agreed.
My lurking recently has been partly due to not having internet at home and having to do everything from work, but also has had something to do with feeling way behind the class in terms of all the things that happened.
Yeah, I'm quite comfortable disregarding everything except TOS. Makes-Things lives in my world.
Maybe he took the opportunity to go have a much-needed vacation. He has all the brains and the resources to feign his own death, and is just snarky enough to let everyone believe it until he's ready to come back. That's my theory.
~Neshomeh
... to have various characters not believe he's dead. Dialogue something like this has run through my mind a number of times:
"Oh, yes, it's broken -- you'll have to take it to Makes-Things."
"... Makes-Things is dead."
"Is he really? Well, suit yourself."
I haven't done it yet because I haven't managed to finish the thing I wanted to use it in. But we'll see.
hS, who thinks messing with the status quo is all very well so long as he can mess with the mess afterwards
I don't want Makes-Things to be dead, either, and in my sadly-neglected missions, I basically avoided the subject because I didn't want to mess around with PPC 'canon', but now I feel like I'm not so restrained, which is nice.
I know, it sounds like a stupid idea and you're going to yell at me, but hear me out. There is precedent for dead PPC staff being brought back to life (for example, all of Team Phoenix, Elanor, and Dafydd, as well as technically Tawaki if you consider him turning into a Time Lord to be a form of coming back from the dead), and there are canonical ways to resurrect the dead in some continua. I've actually toyed with the idea of a Medical worker obsessed with figuring out how to bring him back to life, though I might or might not use that character.
The point is, we could get around the issue by simply acknowledging that he died, but bringing him back through a canonical resurrection method. We might not be able to say he never died, but we could easily get around the issue by finding a way to restore him to life. Alternately, we could bring him back as a ghost, since it's obviously possible for such to happen to Agents and Staff. It'd actually make sense that his spirit might hang around DoSAT, I'd think, considering his name was synonymous with that Department while he was alive. It's just an idea.
*braces self*
That is, he appears in dreams and can only give cryptic advice which is nearly useless until the problem's on top of you. He'd only do this once, though, and there's plenty of time to resurrect him after the end of the OFUR year - it's set in '07-'08.
While on the topic, OFUR will not feature a Sue invasion as such, though Sues will do something unpleasant.
It's just that, with people thinking about that and the fact that I know people don't like Makes-Things being dead (in fact, one of my first memories of the PPC was how entertaining I found Makes-Things, I was really shocked when I found out he'd died during my absence), so I thought I'd suggest it. It did seem simple enough to just bring him back/have him come back as a ghost. The canon doesn't have to be retconned that way, but we still get Makes-Things.
As for the second bit, I must admit I've thought about that sort of thing, but I've always intended for anything like that to be at least a few years down the line if I even did it, not something that happens right now. A lot of the time, haven't intended on it at all, and it's just been idle thought. Actually been debating whether it'd be better to have absolutely nothing happen in 2012 (making the Catastrophe theory look silly) or to have something happen then (to go along with it). Either way, my point is I don't intend on doing something like that at the time, and any plans I might have aren't supposed to happen for a long while.
He can come back after he's done the prophecy ghost thing. He died in March 2008, right? Our emergency won't be starting until the whole Macrovirus business is completely over, so we'll need the prophecy ghost around early summer. Easy.
Not to give away too many spoilers, but we were thinking the Sues do a stealth attack, take something important back to a little pocket-dimension where a small gang of them have set up, and WE invade THEM. Make sense?
Nice reversal of the usual situation, I know I've half pondered doing something similar before. It sounds like it'd be interesting, but we'll probably have to wait and see.
Whose idea WAS it to kill Makes-Things? Personally I think it was about as good an idea as installing a screen door in an airplane. I read some of the OS before joining up, and I thought M-T was an awesome character, because for some bizarre reason I thought he was very lets-give-him-a-noogy cute. So I developed a bunch of fun ideas for how to have him interact with my agents, only to look him up on the PPC Wiki and find out the guy had died almost a year before. Talk about disappointment. Personally, I'm taking a He's Just Hiding stand on the whole thing, which is why I choose not to mention him in my missions.
You'd have to ask Tawaki. He made the call, and it was well withing his right to do so. Makes-Things is one of those characters who seems to belong to everyone (which, or course, means we all have the right to bring him back...)
(Out of curiosity, and with no offense to Sara, doesn't a lot of the opening post seem directed at him?)
Honestly, it's directed at multiple people, all who should know who they are. The entirety of the post itself, though, is directed at the entire PPC.
Not really how he did it, at least, which was toss that in without asking people.
Bringing it up beforehand and asking people would've made it better.
Like a lot of people, I had no clue Makes-Things was dead until months after the fact. If he really does belong to everyone, then one individual really shouldn't have the right to kill him off like that - at least not permanently. Really, if anyone, Makes-Things belongs to Jay and Acacia first and foremost.
I agree partly. I did not like it one bit that a single PPCer just decided to kill Makes-Things, but on the other hand, Jay and Acacia aren't around anymore, and leaving everything of theirs untouched and stagnant is not a good idea, either; the story of the PPC as a whole is active, and shouldn't be locked down in parts.
That said, I think these sorts of decisions can be made, but should be made by group consensus.
I totally agree that change in the PPC canon is inevitable and should be encouraged, to an extent. It's only natural for that to happen, especially since not even PPC HQ itself can be considered constant.
But Makes-Things is pretty much a PPC regular and was (at least in my opinion) an integral part of HQ, and killing him off wasn't exactly the brightest of moves. There's a big difference between introducing a new department or upgrading technology and killing off a regular.
When TV shows kill a popular character, the attention the show gets always shoots up. Not necessarily GOOD attention, but they say no publicity is bad publicity.
I do agree that there's gotta be a way to contact him from beyond the grave, if not bring him back. Hold a seance!
Who, me? 0_0
*flinch* *sweatdrop*
If we're indulging in a group confessional here, Boarder! Trojie and Pads will raise their hands to excessive use of unexplained in-jokes and PPC drama - we have had a non-PPC friend say she felt like she was wandering into a long-running soap opera mid-season, after reading one of our missions. This is clearly not a welcoming practice, and we will be putting up a general post on Trojie's LJ explaining background and backstory in the interests of clarifying things for newcomers.
Also we are guilty of allowing a Potterverse AU character to use Potterverse spells in other magical continua, although in our defence, this was only in continua so warped that their own laws of behavior weren't working in the fic, and the spells were used directly to counter the effects of a Suethor, for instance, giving Lucy Pevensie a sex-change. Said Potterverse AU character is also an implausible recruitment/resurrection of a canon character. Oops.
We're also very, very guilty of Not Taking Things Seriously, playing les buggeures risibles in missions and on the Board, seeking out, deliberately, the worst smutfic missions we can find and then downplaying their disgustingness, having Agents specifically tailored to suit their jobs enough that squicking them is tricky (one a biology fanatic, one from such a bloody bizarre AU with regards to sex and sexuality that a lot of things are 'normal' to her...) and a large number of adopted animals, CAFs, minis, children, and Agents in general in our repertoire.
We sound like we're taking the piss towards the end of this, and this is not technically true. What we are trying to do is admit to failings without moping, and striving towards improvement without losing our senses of humour.
We have also recently been found guilty of posting missions unbetaed. We're very, very sorry.
Oh, and while we're owning up to things...
I still don't, technically speaking, have Permission.
So, um... *casts puppy eyes at PGs*
You just took my PGing virginity, so you damn well better write good missions in future.
And roger that, boss. Shall attempt to write a damned good mission in 25 hours, at which point I am free of uni.
... *slaps self on wrist*
Your stories did spring to mind as far as in-jokes and PPC drama go, but you obviously realise that :P Do know that I've enjoyed most of them immensely.
I don't see the deliberately awful selection of smutfic as a problem; it's what distinguishes them from many others. Trojie and Pads are the Revolting!Fic agents. Nothing wrong with having a… damnit, I know there’s a right word for this. I’ll go with distinctive stylization and theme for now, maybe it will come to me later.
I've been writing PPC a few years now, so I tend to forget what's general knowledge and what's more specialised. But we'll try and be more explanatory in future.
...a daring and heroic rescue in my own particular... "
"Idiom?"
"Idiom!"
"No, I feel fine, actually sir ..."
"Farewell, sweet Concord!"
...oops. I got a bit carried away there ...
I mean--er--gosh, really? I certainly didn't intend for anything of the sort, especially in light of hS's plug on this thread. >.>
<.>
>.>
*gives Trojie a shrubbery and walks away*
~Neshomeh
As I haven't really been around, the main thing I have to offer is the point of view of a (sort of) oldbie who has recently returned, and therefore is able to offer a fairly accurate perspective of what has changed.
Unfortunately, I'm going to have to agree with Sara on many of your points. As I've been desperately been trying to catch up with things via wiki, the number of "emergencies" is overwhelming. From what I can see, everybody wants to be able to say "my character was there when..." and the fact is, not everybody is going to be internetfamous all the time. I've also noticed the trend of increasingly Sueish agents, which is a problem. As Sara pointed out, these are supposed to be regular people doing a job that they care about. It's difficult, it's frustrating, the food is awful and the pay is low. We do it because we love canon.
Also, something everybody may want to keep in mind; fellow PPC'ers are not the only ones reading your missions. As I've been recently reminded, my old (not particularly good or original I realise) PPC fanfictions drew a good handful of people to the PPC who perhaps would otherwise never have heard of it. As I've been trying to catch up on what's been going on, something I've noticed is that your stories are SO full of in-jokes and PPC drama that anybody who isn't heavily involved in the PPC is probably going to very quickly lose interest.
Hopefully this thread doesn’t disintegrate into a massive, pointless flame war. I feel that Sara has brought up some very valid points which are worth looking into and discussing.
True, non-PPCers will read our missions, but people unfamiliar with Star Trek might fall into the middle of a Deep Space Nine episode about the Dominion War - the writers aren't requried to re-explain the history of the Federation in ever episode. That's what running series do. We don't need high ratings to keep going - we don't have to pay for advertisements - and essentially, we are writing for ourselves, so if someone loses interest... a shame, but it shouldn't run our 'lives', methinks.
That said, we could sidestep most of the problem by just putting an author's note with a link to The Original Series at the top of every mission.
Just my two cents.
Well, in mine and Trojie's case, a link to TOS wouldn't help much - it'd explain the PPC set-up, but most of our in-jokes come from the fact we've so many missions under our belts. And we like to have preamble and closing scenes about the agents, so there's been a lot of character development, and it's there the confusion comes in. We've a nice tidy sticky post with links to all our missions, but that's a lot to wade through. So we've been putting together a brief introduction to the RC#45 Soap Opera, for anyone who wanders in and is hideously confused. Hopefully it'll help.
Yeah, those were the type of in-jokes I was mainly referring to, not so much the history of the PPC itself.
Sedri: Yes, we are writing for ourselves. However, it's simply a characteristic of good writing to make the details of your story easily accessible to your readership. If we continue with your Star Trek metaphor, no, they don't explain the entire history of the Federation in each episode. However, when put into context, the events of the story are generally pretty easy to figure out.
then the question becomes a subjective one of, "where is the line drawn?" And personally, even my fanfics are written, at the end of the day, for myself, and I don't mind if no one but me or other PPCers read my missions - don't I have that right? No one ever said all writing must be community property.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just not entirely agreeing, either.
The world would be pretty boring if we all found ourselves in constant agreement, after all. I do see your point and I think part of it is my tendency to lump fanfiction in the same category as original fiction, in terms of my expectations for it. If that makes any sense, which it possibly doesn’t (I’m not terribly awake right now). Naturally, it's absolutely your right to write however you would like to.
I suppose what I was trying to say is that a good majority of what seems to be happening recently consists of in-jokes which are unintelligible to outsiders, or, for that matter, anybody who hasn't followed each "emergency" or recalls every detail of what's been happening in PPC history.
I do understand what you're saying though :)
I'm pretty new here, so I don't presume to know much, but...
I dunno, I think using that same formula makes things a bit monotonous. I mean, it's often stressed that killing Sues and exorcising Wraiths and such is dangerous work, but a lot of times agents just, as you say, go in, snark a bit, kill the threat, and leave. I mean, shouldn't we spice things up a bit by actually showing that what our Agents are doing can be life-threatening as well as sanity-threatening?
And also, "Tropes are devices and conventions that a writer can reasonably rely on as being present in the audience members' minds and expectations. On the whole, tropes are not clichés." That was quoted from TVTropes. Just because it's a trope doesn't mean it's automatically a cliche. I mean, there are some tropes like the Big No and other Discredited Tropes that are considered overused, but not all of them are.
With the Emergencies and the big weapons and stuff, I agree. So far I've only seen one of the former, and I don't consider big weapons to be much fun. But I don't really see many of the SueAgents. Or maybe I just have low standards. I don't know.
Just wanted to put in my own two cents.
Not necessarily on an HQ-wide scale. Just buggering up the mission and allowing the Sue to escape, if only briefly, or succeeding in the mission but revealing their existence to some canon characters in a way which takes a little more effort than instant neuralysation to fix (say, in a place with security cameras).
Or more non-mission-centric snippets about the agents interacting with each other. Some of the agents have families, how does one deal with HQ life and raising kids? (Molly is technically a nursery inhabitant but she's had so many temporary bans that she's practically living with S&S fulltime.)
I think you might be over-exaggerating a bit with regards to the OMG EMERGENCIES. The only one I recall in recent memory was the 2008 Invasion, which was over a year ago. The April Fool's Day Invasion was a one-off gag, and the Macrovirus Crisis was essentially in the background.
I haven't really noticed any fixation on big weapons, to be honest. Chliever has a pretty big sword, but he's a pretty big guy and said type of sword is standard issue for his race. Maybe I've just been reading the wrong missions...
Your third point is the same as your first, incidentally.
I've made up a couple heads for Departments, but only because I was sure those Departments would otherwise never be used again. Does ANYONE remember the All-Purpose Department. I thought not.
You misjudge TVTropes, I see. Tropes are simply writing devices. They're not synonymous with cliches. If they're used too much, they become cliched. Not all tropes are cliched, as they're only cliched when they become boring. If we were boring, we'd all be cliches.
And really, I've noticed no increasing Suvianism in Agents. Perhaps you're overreacting?
Decent argument, but not without a few holes. I hope I don't come off as flamey.
Double damn. I never knew this was such a sensitive subject...
Wars require at least two participants, and generally go beyond one salvo (otherwise it's a pretty short war). :P
hS
Right. Was just concerned, thanks.
I give fair warning: Not all of this is directed at Chliever. Just most of it. I'm saying what I'm saying and I'm not holding back. I don't care if someone gets hurt feelings at this point, people's blood is boiling too much in the background for me to care for hurt feelings.
That's not a decent argument, that's an excellent one.
And I'm going to be honest before everyone right here and right now and say you're one of the ones I have the biggest beefs with, with what she's said.
How can it be possible for something to be forgotten when there's so many people and there's been use of that department for spin offs before? And I stated what Sara said to someone before; just because a spot is empty doesn't mean we need to fill it before someone else does. Just because you can do something in theory doesn't mean you ought.
What the hell is a Spirit Tree, and why would one department have two Flowers from the same continuum? Why the hell would the PPC let in an 'Elder Evil Tree'? Isn't that just asking for trouble? Not only is it evil, apparently, it's also an elder evil. EVIL THINGS. THEY ARE BAD. EVIL THINGS GENERALLY ARE A BAD IDEA IN THE PPC.
Why the hell do we have a sentient orangutan in the PPC? And if an Agent has the same name as a canon and isn't that canon or isn't secretly that canon or some insane gone round the bend person thinking they're that canon, IT IS BEING DONE WRONG.
Using 'he has a cold, almost uncaring demeanor, quite odd for a doctor.' as a description? POOR. WHAT SORT OF DOCTOR, HOW IS IT ODD, WHY DOES THIS EVEN MATTER?
And, your main Agent, Chliever, is a GIANT PLAGUE BEARING BEING FROM A CANON OF GRIMDARK. And is nice. And 'as a member of Floaters, Chliever takes great pride in his versatility, and firmly considers himself one of "the best.' And you handwave all of the potential aughdanger from him. Last I checked, the PPC does have a sense of preservation. A poor and misdirected one at times, but there is a great deal of "I WOULD LIKE TO LIVE, AND STAY HEALTHY OUTSIDE OF THE OCCASIONAL STUNTS I PULL ON MISSIONS BECAUSE THE SUE WAS TARGETTING MY LO." I honestly can't see many agents wanting to stay in the same building as something like it, sanitized or not. Hell. SUE. STU. AIRY OO OR WTFEVER.
On the subject of Emergencies: WHEN PEOPLE KEEP COMING UP WITH SOME EMERGENCY OR ANOTHER THAT IS GOING TO DOOOOOOOM DOOOOM US ALLLL WE'RE DOOOOOOOOOOM-ED, YOU KNOW WHAT? It gets boring. It is nonexciting. It becomes expected. Formulaic. Because no one is actually going to let it actually DOOOOOOOOOM the PPC. And amazingly enough, people are going to actually, you know. Have the Agents save the day. Against impressive odds. Despite everything.
Sueish, much?
Emergencies I can think of off the top of my head since the 2008:
Macrovirus, Sue invasion, mega mission because of a SUE THAT WOULD DOOOOOOOM US ALLL ALLL I SAY, Gender Bender, Fake Emergency of April Fool's.
And your whole damn reply to Sara? Goddamn, man, I haven't read such a condescending response since I reread what I'm writing right now.
Continuing on, I have a huge beef with a lot of you. Some of you seem to have forgotten manners, like asking for permission before borrowing someone else's agent characters (Cassie. Who knows who else), writing boring missions (Ugolino, Cheliever, KGarrett because it seems someone told him interesting bits that build character SHOULD BE GOT RID OF), not writing missions at all (ME), too afraid to state your own opinion on matters because you're afraid of being disliked or not being welcome on the board if you do it(Once again, KG, Trojie, Vixenmage).
I'm stating this right out.
I think a lot of people are making this place suck. And because everyone here wants to be nice, they don't say anything to all the idiots that ignore the politely given suggetions, they politely withdraw and leave rather than huring feelings. STOP THAT. COME BACK HERE. DON'T MAKE ME COME AFTER YOU.
AND YOU PEOPLE MAKING EVERYONE LEAVE? UGOLINO, KG, CHELIEVER, JOE, WHATSYOURFACE.
SHAPE UP OR I SHALL GO AFTER YOU TOO. LISTEN TO PEOPLE. ACTUALLY TAKE ADVICE. LOOK AT WHAT YOU ARE DOING COMPARED TO WHAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE.
I have a lot more to say, but this is enough for now.
Besides this:
OOGAH BOOGAH I'M COMING AFTER EVERYONE.
... *hangs head*
*ponders killing off Sith Agents and leaving*
I think six-year-olds can't really grasp morality enough to count as intentionally evil, but then who does evil intentionally?
*sings* "She was a good girl/ And it felt great to be a liar ..."
At this point normally I would *huggle* the agents in question but that could be mildly suicidal.
Anyway, no. Rilwen and Cavan stay, and you stay. Please?
Aww, nah, don't do that. You know this discussion has gone on too long when people are actually contemplating flouncing...
As for the Elder Evil Tree, he's not evil, that's just his species. I made him because I thought I thought the chance of someone actually writing for DAVD(i) was pretty much nil; next time I'll allow for the possibility.
... tell me about Elder Evil Trees and Spirit Trees. Given the decimation of DAVD during Crashing Down (when one of their Agents led most of the rest to their deaths) I'm thinking about writing something set there; it'd be a good time to actually make use of these two new Trees, and give the Big Thorn an appearance.
hS
Spirit Trees and Evil Trees are rival types of sentient trees. Spirit Trees are kind and helpful and can teleport you places (provided you prove you're a friend of the gnomes) including to Evil Trees. Evil Trees aren't exactly malicious, just hideous and unruly; you can try to keep them under control for training.
I thought it would be a good idea for the two corners of DAVD to have rival heads and before you knew it, out came these two. You can use them. The EET is new, remember (because Evil Trees are a recent update in RuneScape), so he wouldn't be around during Crashing Down, which could also explain why DAVD(i) reports directly to the Big Thorn there.
So the Spirit Tree is generally helpful and probably lends a hand in DAVD Medical when patients need moving. The EET is more disgruntled, but still an effective Division Head; he may also be prone to inflicting bizarre punishments on Agents who mess up (since this is the PPC, and bizarre is fairly RuneScapish too, from what I know). But they're both under the Big Thorn, and listen to what he says.
Right. Now all I need is some Agents, a setting, and, oh yeah, a plot. :P I'll get there eventually.
hS
... is that I needed a way to reconcile the Action-DAVD I mentioned in Reorg with the original DAVD missions, here. So I designated the original missions as being the Intel wing of DAVD. So there already are DAVD(i) missions... but the only Head they mention is the Big Thorn.
hS
The difference is: you, quite believably, have everything under control. There is nothing wrong with your Agents, dear. Don't you dare leave.
"Why the hell do we have a sentient orangutan in the PPC?"
Possibly a Librarian reference from Discworld?
:P
I really have no idea, I haven't come across said orangutan yet, but this is what immediately sprang to mind.
... and, going by hS mentioning Monty in a canon mission now, a non-anthropomorphic goose. Why is the orangutan unusual?
Seriously, July, calm down a little. You make a number of good points, but they don't need to be in the form of personal attacks. I know you were ranting (and Tulkas knows I want to do the same thing sometimes) but "everyone here wants to be nice" isn't (and shouldn't be) a condemnation. In all the long years I've been with the PPC (and I have an official Old Man Walking Stick to prove it!) I've only seen Boarders angry at one another a handful of times, and never (I don't think) about story-related subjects.
I'm going to quote from the Constitution now:
4. ...You don’t have to agree with anyone, of course, and stating your own opinion is encouraged, but no telling other people that their opinion is WRONG...
11. If you have a problem with a fellow PPC Boarder, please try to work it out in private emails. Don’t turn the Board into a free-for-all Flamefest.
14. If someone says something that seems offensive, but you’re not sure exactly what they meant, ASK them first, before jumping down their throats. They probably didn’t mean to offend anyone. (If they DID mean to insult people, go ahead and jump down their throats if you like.)
The PPC isn't just about the missions, entertaining though they may be. It's about a community of people who despise bad writing. That means that we need to help each other when we see it emerging in PPC work, and that we need to be receptive to constructive criticism of our own stories (Concrit -- it's not just a building material in HQ!). But we also need to be nice to each other.
I think it would be sensible for any changes to the structure of the PPC -- new Flowers, Departments, Emergencies -- to be brought up on-Board before actually being implemented. Then anyone objecting would have a chance to object. Because we need to remember that this is a shared universe, and that we can only make it work by working on it together.
Oh, and going back to the Constitution:
20. Remember to have FUN.
And so, since I'm not fond of throat-jumping personally, I'm going to close in the spirit of Rule 16. Aardvarks are orange -- but only on Tuesdays!
hS
(PS: And leave Cassie out of this. I know you're on her LJ; it's not fair to start throwing things at her right now. ~hS)
I've been quiet about this particular topic on the Board, for various reasons, including:
a. I've been feeling miserable enough about life as it is (thank you for pointing it out; I don't feel like I can bring it up much, it feels like I'm hiding behind it).
b. This particular argument and related issues has just lost me a very close friend, or at least alienated them, and right now I'm incredibly ripped up about that.
c. I'm squirming with guilt over whether or not my Agents and behaviour fall into the categories brought up by Sara.
I can't recall the exact occasion July's talking about, but I won't argue, if I can be given a reminder.
I have odd reservations about giving concrit to fellow PPC writers. Well, I find it odd. I think it mostly has to do with the fact that I consider the permission to write missions also as some sort of diploma for knowing how to write stories. So, I feel awkward telling people with this "story writing diploma" that their story writing isn't up to scratch. I don't want to appear condensending or have this whole 'I know better than you' air. Even if I do think the story could be better or an easier read with some modifications.
What doesn't help, is that these stories are beta read by other PPC writers. More people who, I think, should know how to write a story. Why didn't the beta reader point out to certain author that their story reads more like a story outline than a story? Why didn't the beta of other author tell them to not use the gerund so much, and mix some shorter sentences in among only semi-paragraph long ones?
I feel outnumbered on those occasions.
I'm more comfortable giving concrit to new PPC writers (those with no more than a few missions under their belt. It's like driving: you don't really learn how to drive until after you've got your license and drive a lot). Those, I thought, would be more open to concrit. Until I got such a reply from one of them for pointing out a continuity error that I decided that for reviewing PPC missions goes the same as for reviewing stories on the Pit: no feedback for anyone under the age of 16, preferably 18.
It feels wrong to have this rule of thumb, but I can really do without the annoyance of being told I'm wrong (even if only in the tone used in the response) for pointing out an error.
If someone tells me a story is crap and explains why in great detail and accuracy, like civilized people who do not resort to instant flaming, then I'll listen. This doesn't just apply to SPaG; if a character turns out to be flat and badly written, I'll either have it burned or reformed as soon as possible. When and if I decide to actively join the fight against badfic, anyone should feel free to tear mission drafts to shreds if needed.
Betas are more than welcome to tear my work to shreds if it deserves such treatment. Or if they find it "boring". It's better than waiting a couple of months to hear said opinion on the Board.
Every time I get a new customer I have to toe the waters for a while to figure out exactly what they want and what they're not willing to listen to. Sometimes it works. Sometimes it gets messy. Since recieving some outright nasty replies from fanfic authors after offering to beta for them, I feel just as meek as you do. Pads is right; there's only so much we can do, and I wish there was a more common differentiation between SPaG beta-reading, content beta-reading, and actual approval of the work in question.
I also want to second your first paragraph, about the feeling that Permission = Writing Ability. It is so very much not true. I've read some PPC missions which I'd like to bury in ConCrit, but I keep my mouth shut, because except for Pads and Trojie and a few others, I'm not really sure how such replies would be taken. I'm not a newbie, but I'm not an oldbie, and the informal hierarchy that comes with that leaves me unsure of what I should say and what's better off left alone (hence why I will probably never be named a Permission Giver).
That said, I welcome ConCrit from everyone. I may not use it - I may not have the time or energy, and may disagree - but I will always thank you and consider it.
I also tend to fall victim to "someone else will handle it" syndrome and walk away without saying anything, mainly because I don't want to come off as that mean person who's always ready to criticize everything.
At the same time, though, I've been training myself for years to take concrit, and it has gotten to the point where I'm really frustrated when no one has anything to say on the subject of how I could improve. SPaG isn't good enough--anybody can make and fix those mistakes. I wanna hear about continuity, characterization, clarity, and anything else you can possibly think of in the meat of the story, whether it begins with a C or not.
Like hS, I'm not likely to go back and re-write something old, though I will make mechanical fixes if need be, but when I seek out betas, I really want someone who will rip into the thing and tell me what's what.
It has occurred to me that this sounds slightly masochistic, but it isn't. You see, this kind of concrit means that someone was really paying attention and cared enough to offer a critical analysis. That is a huge compliment.
So, there you have it.
~Neshomeh, who feels that she is talking a lot lately.
I haven't had as much of a chance to beta as most of you, but I do try to give as much concrit as I can when I do have the chance. Have a tendency to be very blunt about it, though, which might alienate people, and in the PPC it's really not my place to offer criticism to any of you I think. Besides, like anyone would listen to my ilk? :P
Seriously though, I completely agree, especially with the desire for concrit. I'm always specifically asking for it in my plugs, not just from betas but from everyone who reads them (which is probably nobody outside of my betas, actually :P) because I'm always looking for criticism that can help me write better, especially since I want people to actually enjoy my spinoff (spinoffs? Does it count as multiple if you have multiple Agent pairs doing missions?).
It gets frustrating, because so few people ever even try and it seems like nobody actually cares enough to offer any (if, as said, anyone even read it. :P), but I'm always willing to hear people out, and do tend to try to go back through a mission to fix details where needed. So, yeah, it's pretty much an open call for all concrit from anyone who has any to offer. SPaG itself shouldn't be the only thing addressed. I know I should probably stop crawling out from the woodwork like this, but I thought I should make my opinion known, especially since the lack of offered concrit has always frustrated me. Forgive me for not being as eloquent about it as hS or Neshomeh, but that's where I stand.
I feel so *clean* afterwards. And virtuous!
If anyone ever sees an issue, from SPaG to word-choice to style to whatever, please please tell me. That's half of what I love about LJ - posts are editable, so if someone finds something that can be improved, I can improve it.
However also ditto, I'm very wary of giving more-than-SPaG concrit to anyone I don't know will take it well.
In fact, I learn better with it. The silly reviews on ff.net stories that are always, "OMG I luv ur story! Update!!!1!" bore me to tears. The reviews with constructive critism that point out my flaws and the "good parts" are my favorites. I can't always see what's wrong with my writing and maybe someone else can. So, I don't mind if you give me concrit. Go ahead. That way, when I begin turning out missions, I have a way of knowing what others think of them.
I'd really like to thank you for giving me concrit. Thanks to you, I've tried to make my missions good without quoting too much of the badfic.
Keep it up.
Please, please, please feel free to concrit anything I put up. While I'm not prone to changing things once they're posted, I will if absolutely necessary, and I always take comments into account in later chapters/missions/etc. So please do.
I'll also echo beta-readers (nor, I would add, PPC writers) are perfect, or even necessarily any good. The difference at the PPC should be not in the quality necessarily, but in the willingness to listen. Given how much of a big deal we make out of concrit, and how annoyed we get at authors who refuse to change, we should be better at listening. Not saying we all are -- but more, I hope, than in other fandoms.
hS
There is sometimes only so much a beta can do.
Giving a long list of things that are wrong with a story tends to make people defensive. Pointing out huge problems in narrative style can be even worse, because it's so personal to the writer. With, say, Trojie or Sedri, I know they appreciate me ripping what they've written to shreds and picking on anything and everything, and I know they'll take it well. With people I don't know so well, a softer approach is needed, with more sort of guiding principles about things that don't need to be said or done in whatever way.
Then, of course, there have also been occasions when I've pointed out problems with agents' abilities or the writer's take on how canon would react to the badfic, and been utterly ignored. It's made even more difficult because I know how I would write the mission, but my way isn't necessarily the best way. When the writer's not listening, there comes a point where I simply throw my hands up in defeat, SPaG-beta the thing, and wash my hands of it.
At which point said author then goes and sticks my name at the top as a beta suggesting I've done an excellent job and the mission has my seal of approval. Which is frustrating as hell, because I'm aware quite a few people round here view me as a good beta.
As for giving concrit to writers with many missions written, IndeMaat - feel free in my case. The more the better, as far as I'm concerned.
They didn't need to be, and I hadn't intended to, but I've been feeling rather needlessly petty. That, I will apologise for.
I also didn't mean the want to be nice as a condemnation, but instead as a fact that's been making actual concrit and bringing things up as very difficult.
And you ought return that official Old Man Walking Stick to Kaitlyn, she needs it more than you. :P
(And yes, I realise now that bringing Cassie into it was definitely below the belt due to current circumstances and I am kicking myself for mentioning her right now.)
I'm still in the PPC, that doesn't stop for personal reasons. I have to admit to not being able to recall the circumstances you were referring to, though. Would you mind reminding me?
No hard feelings, right?
What I was trying to do with Chliever was testing to see if it COULD work. But, you're right. I'll try to make at least some people less accepting of him. In my next mission, I'll be examining exactly WHAT happens when he loses control of himself.
Thank you for your concern. I had kind of a feeling you were being petty for reasons other than this, and you let it spill over. We all do it.
I renamed Komodo Joe. He is now Komodo Greg. Thanks for calling me on that; no idea what I was thinking.
So, you pretty much hate everyone, then?
And give you about eight hours or so before I reply to that.
Jeez. No need to get so mad. Just because I think Sara's thesis was "decent" as opposed to "excellent" does not mean I dislike her, or you, or anyone else here. It's called a differing opinion.
Has anyone ever spoken to you privately about not liking aspects of your characters? Or is this today the first you've heard of it?
In fact, I've actually been complemented on how well I handled Chliever's... various impediments.
I can understand not being interested in my missions, but I must say flaming me for disagreeing with someone's opinion on someone ELSE'S opinion is a tad harsh.
Oh, no flames from me, don't worry. I was just thinking that it might have been of more use (and certainly would have displayed greater manners) if the people objecting to your agents had spoken to you privately about it first.
It's a bit difficult to speak to someone privately when the only way of contacting them is through the Board.
Many of us have LJs.
Perhaps it is because you haven't been here quite as long as some of us. In the two years I was here before the 2008 Invasion, there were no Board-wide Emergencies. After April? Suddenly there are more and more Emergencies cropping up, and not just on the Board. Missions become less mission-y and more Homeric epic-y. RPs become less of a fun, lighthearted way to play around with characters and more of a means to more drama. And believe me, the Macrovirus Crisis was anything but in the background.
No fixation on big weapons? Perhaps you haven't seen the posts asking for usage of high explosives (I also seem to remember one asking if it was okay to use the power of the gods?!) to take out a Sue that, while seemingly impossible to destroy, could easily be defeated with brains and not brawn. Just because you're using your brain to write doesn't mean that your Agents don't have to use theirs to complete their mission with as little disruption to the 'verse as possible.
Perhaps it is, but it is a point all the same.
There's always an exception. You can never be sure.
I stand by my point here. Yes, they are writing devices, but when you write them only as they're seen on TVTropes, they are cliche. Try tweaking them. Making them different. Or maybe even make them subtle.
...really. What about the Agents randomly turning into Time Lords? Don't we, y'know, charge 'fic characters for that? How about the ones that are supposedly unphased by anything and everything? The ones who can use noncanonical spells? The ones who shouldn't be Agents at all due to the impossibility of them being recruited? Take a look at the Agents on the wiki. A goodly amount are more Sue-ish than not.
This is a good rebuttal. Sorry, I didn't mean to be condescending or anything. I'll definitely strive to improve my missions based on your suggestions.
Can be explained in every "repeated routine drives the focused character to madness" clip show ever included in any show or movie ever. After a while, it gets boring: that's why vacation days exist for pretty much all jobs. And certainly, it gets boring to read the same thing over and over with just the names switched around and different targets picked out.
I'm not suggesting that we up and close down HQ to turn the PPC into a traveling electric rock band-- for one thing, I doubt any of the Flowers would look good in plastic and leather. But some variance is nice: it does help make things interesting to break up or spice up the standard template of enter-bitch-snark-kill-leave. After all, "Strictly Formula" is a Trope, too.
And also, while I'm hardly the most pleased about Makes-Things' death, it really did open up a chance to put more focus on the DoSAT as a whole rather than just the one man. The DoSAT isn't supposed to be just Makes-Things, but as long as he was alive that's how it was treated.
I must admit, I'm fully expecting to get stomped on for saying some of this stuff. But it is what I think.
I understand that routine gets boring, but we need to find a happy medium. Look at July's missions, for example. They're the formulaic missions, but they also have long intros and outros filled with various hijinks that help to define her Agents and make the actual piece more interesting. Writing things besides missions is perfectly all right, but it stops being okay when it turns into a drama production that would make Shakespeare cringe.
Before long this is going to turn into one big laundry list of grievances. Boards have been torn apart that way.
Maybe actually, you know, write things more than occasionally. {= P
My own confession is that I find myself drawn over and over toward psychological drama and, though I shudder to say it, angst. The fact of dealing with insane people in insane situations makes me want to know what makes them the way they are, and to explore the effects badfic has on them physically and psychologically. This fascinates me, but it leads me away from humor at times. I have to fight that tendency when it comes to my own agents and, perhaps, develop it into writing about the canon characters in FicPsych instead. In that case, I also have to get over my fear of writing canon characters. If they're in FicPsych it's a given that they aren't quite themselves, right? So if I get some things off I'd be forgiven, right? ^_^;
Hopefully my next story will set some things right.
~Neshomeh
And as quite possibly the original offender in the OMG THAR IS AN EMERGENCY category, I certainly should. (I can tell by how many times I've wanted to right "However..." so far)
... right, no more excuses; I'm going to sit down and write a normal, standard mission with no drama other than, y'know, the sort that normally comes from a pair of insane people wandering around in a bad fanfiction.
hS
Blackest Knight
An outing for the DoWTF, into something which I've had bookmarked for at least three years.
hS
*cheers* I've been waiting for one of these. Excellent work; Monty Python doesn't deserve to have badfic like this.
... what exactly is up with your IP address?
"121.73.66.2 (XFF: 121.73.66.2)"
What's an XFF? And why doesn't anyone else get one? Are you hoarding the XFFs? Is this a secret conspiracy to turn your XFF hordes against those who think themselves secure? Answer, you fiend, lest ye be destroyéd by the Almighty Hand of Fate!
hS, going slowly insaner
X-ray fluorescence?
But the only conclusion I can come to is that I know nothing about how the intarmawebz works.
If anyone works it out, please let me know!
Is that an Agent Monty I spy? Marvellous!
Poor Black Knight, though. He may be foolish, but he doesn't deserve being beaten up just to make a Sue look good. Good work.
~Neshomeh
Your emergencies are historical events, so they don't just pop up randomly.
Decent argument, I must say. I admit I'm guilty of name-dropping a few new Flowers, but only for Departments I was fairly sure would just be forgotten if I didn't do that.
Nevertheless, good Argument. One thing I disagree with, though, was your assessment of the death of M-T. Why can't the status quo be shaken up once in a while?
Also, in before wank.
Or making jokes on the lack of changes, a la The Simpsons, is also good.
... agents dealing with some everyday non-mission-related problems. More character interaction. Nothing huge and world-threatening, just how they deal with life and the problems that naturally come along with being a PPC agent. Or, heck, what happens when missions go horribly wrong? Not necessarily involving the agents being captured and nearly tortured to death, but it'd be more fun if occasionally they screwed up.
Reminds me, I need to come up with something horrible to happen to Agent Foxglove - Laburnum's already been through a nasty near-failed mission thanks to her own inability to think things through.
Something she wouldn't find fun, preferably. Trouble with Foxglove is it's hard to imagine her *not* bouncing happily back from anything short of a direct napalm-bomb hit.
"Cool, your Agent is a taller-than-average man who can't be beat at fights physical or magical"
Mine's a woman who can do that (except the magical thing). Is that original? :P
In all seriousness, though, I think I agree with you. I've actually become more and more hesitant about joining the PPC as I discover more and more of the crazy history behind it. Fortunately, Pads is helping me draft my character profiles. So if I screw them up, it's all her fault. *scampers away*
*returns* As for Sue/Stu Agents, are we allowed to have missions where we kill them? *scampers away again*
However, that doesn't fall to other Departments. All we can really do is strongly encourage their writers to kill them off. Sorry for saying something, I know I don't deserve to be in the same thread as any of you, don't hate me too much for it.
*goes back into hiding*
Seriously, what did I say earlier about your self esteem, or lack thereof, and its annoyingness? Yes, you said some things that you shouldn't have said, but you weren't the only one who went off the rails that time, you weren't the first one to do so, and you probably won't be the last. No one here hates you, no one here has the right to say whether or not you deserve to be here and will you stop bloody hiding already, you ginormous pillock?!
And sometimes I've wanted to unleash them on published missions, but the amount of drama it'd cause on-Board would make it not worthwhile.
Amazingly, I don't even have a folder on my computer of stress-relieving DIO missions. Maybe someday.
hS
... because they get away with too much. I, and they, do know this, but I just couldn't resist doing stuff like the Trees thing.
If I'd known, I never would have said anything. It seemed relevant, considering the person's question, but I probably should have left it to you. I humbly submit to any rebukes or punishments that come as a consequence to this, though I know my apology will not be accepted this time. I was not aware that you already planned on bringing them up.
KG, I thought we went over this whole "woe is me, I'm so pathetic, everyone hates me" thing already. You're meant to be knocking it off.
All these recent dramas haven't even come close to catching my interest, and I have no interest in reading missions that are predictable and more concerned with "great" new things than the agents and the awfulness of the badfic - because that's what the PPC is about: Badfic.
If I recall correctly, in the notes of one of their early missions, Jay made a comment about how she and Acacia were finding that their agents were getting a lot of screentime, and was concerned that the readers weren't interested in the agents. They were, thankfully, and that's why most of us are here, but the point is that the PPC's own founders did not start this wonderful place in order to write about themselves - the intention was always to deal with badfic.
Let's keep it that way, 'kay?
The overdrama, overacting, overkill has been stifling lately. We need to tone down, slow down, and think before we do things. Is it gratuitous? Is it self-serving? Is it funny? Is it in keeping with the spirit of being the hard-working, everyday Agent just doing their job? If the answers are anything but no, no, yes and yes, then why are we doing it?
Go on, make my day. I've been missing the humor around here.
Only minor apologies for the snark.