Subject: I'd still rather have him than bring Uncle Rusty back... (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2014-02-20 16:21:00 UTC
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I think my missions... by
on 2014-02-19 23:05:00 UTC
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...are slowly becoming "let's analyse fanfiction from a feminist lens with Ellie and Chrissy" sorta thing.
I guess that's what happens when you go to an all-women's college. Ah well.
(Speaking of which, I got into the Wellesley College TV writing team. The show's called Boobtube; check it out by searching Wellesley College Boobtube. Failure to include the college may result in... interesting... results.)
Anyway, ahem. Mission plug.
Illogical in all the Right Ways (fic has a tw for Twilight-esque relationships. mission has a tw for mentions of past abuse and a description of a panic attack)
Target: Seraphina Lilly Jones and Stupock
Agents: Christianne Shieh and Eledhwen Elerossiel
Fandom: Star Trekkin (into fifty shades of urpley-wilver awfulness), the Reboot
Things added to continuity:
-More on Christianne's college life and past relationship
-Don't talk too much about PPC terminology and stuff around Spock. Vulcans have eidetic memories, and he's just barely forgetting all this stuff. You'll end up making him remembering all the Sues he's met (and he has met many), and it's not a pretty picture.
-Two Vulcan DAVD Agents: Lorian and T'Lyra. They work together and are, in fact, married. There's a mission Dawn and I are working on with them and her Calaquendi Agents.
-I think Christianne might be triggered specifically by phrases like "she is mine", in accordance with a possessive attitude and aggressive actions (it's a very nuanced thing, I think). Bear in mind that this is still a relatively recent development in her characterisation, so if there were missions in 2008 where it didn't affect her, it'd be because I was young and immature and didn't have a grasp on Christianne's character.
-The protocol for handling Agents triggered in the line of duty is most likely tailored to each Agent's ability and place in their recovery process. Christianne is considerably more recovered than many others, I imagine, and therefore can handle uncomfortable situations for a bit longer (mostly because she seems to prioritise the Duty over her own well-being). But for her, usually a stint in a plothole with some Bleepesteem will do the trick.
Things up for grabs: A sparkly 'Aruzul Stone' of Sueness. Said to increase telepathic abilities.
Mini-Tribbles: Chekhov, Kirks -
IÂ’m late for this, by
on 2014-02-22 16:11:00 UTC
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and have nothing to say that has not already been said in better words than are available to me, but may I ask one question?
When you wrote "extremely problematic for the twenty-third country", did you intend to write "twenty-third century", or did I miss something there?
HG -
Welp, typo! by
on 2014-02-22 16:16:00 UTC
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Thank you for catching that!
And I'm sorry that you were late to the party and thus missed out on critique moments. If you think of anything, let me know. :) -
Hm, no one seems to have claimed Kirks yet. by
on 2014-02-21 22:38:00 UTC
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Poor li'l guy.
Can I have him? I may or may not give him to a Vulcan...
Still working on reading the finished mission, but I'm looking forward to it!
~DF -
Sure thing! by
on 2014-02-22 16:29:00 UTC
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And I hope it's not as painful the... fifth? time around.
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Okay, to start... by
on 2014-02-21 07:05:00 UTC
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...let me just say that I utterly adore Christianne and Eledhwen, and a new mission with them in always makes me uncontrollably excited. I love how you explored the new developments in their relationship here, and how Christianne lets--nay, relies on--Eledhwen to support her when she is triggered. Spock following them around was wonderful, too.
I have a thing where I don't read the responses to a mission-posting thread until I've read the actual mission, so I got to see the discussions going on in one fell swoop, and they were so terribly interesting, and made me think a little.
I love this Board so much. The combination of humour, acceptance, and good writing will never fail to make me smile.
-Aila -
Thank you! by
on 2014-02-22 16:31:00 UTC
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That makes me think of this couple retiring and adopting a cat named Spock that just follows them everywhere. Interesting mental image, that.
I love this place. We all have such good ideas and can discuss them in a way that doesn't insult the original poster, unlike certain parts of Tumblr. -
I'm really glad someone's cleaning up the sci-fi canons. by
on 2014-02-20 22:42:00 UTC
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I'd send my agents to those, but Wobbles doesn't like technology and the Notary doesn't like, well, anything. With the possible exception of 15-B requisition forms. Anywho, if you find an angstfic and you need someone who isn't a DoA agent but probably ought to be, I'd be more than happy to write a crossover with you.
On to the mission itself:-
It was great. Your agents are well-rounded people and I want to read more about them. I also want to find whoever hurt Chrissy and give them an enema with the run-off slag from a steelworks, but that's immaterial. They respond well to danger and they're actually smart; we don't see enough of that in fiction. The last example I read was, um, Worm, which is about a high-school dropout who can control bugs with her mind and how this makes her one of the most terrifyingly adept capes in the world. It's not a happy story exactly, but I think you'd like it.
But yeah, back on topic. The mission is brilliant and, having read the midden you were sporking before reading the mission itself, thoroughly necessary. You write well and with flair, and I can't wait to see the next mission!
Of course, this means inflicting more badfic on you, which is probably bad, but w/e. =] -
I shall stay on the lookout, then. by
on 2014-02-22 16:39:00 UTC
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I love Wobbles and the Notary (moreso the Notary because all the Time Lords seem to have varying shades of dislike towards her (except the Agent, he just ignores her) and it's interesting to see why. Sometimes it reads off as bullying, and then I remember that the Notary is a bit of a snob and a huge bureaucrat, and I laugh a little. Though she should get that photocopier fixed. ;)
Thank you so much! I feel like I've finally found the Holy Grail of characterisation. I'm glad their dynamic came off well to you; developing them has been about a seven-year project now and I'm glad to see it's paid off. I'll see if I can take a look at Worm.
I sent a PM to the author with my concerns about her story, and she... kinda backhandedly dismissed them. With some explanations as to how charge x and charge y should be justified (apparently Seraphina knows 96% of the Federation languages because languages come easily to her and she has an eidetic memory. Ah, really? I remember things fairly well and I take linguistics; does that make me fluent in Swahili, Zulu, Turkish, Cree, Chickasaw, Hungarian, Swedish, and Nauhatl? I don't think so. I can only make a limited amount of prepositional phrases in Turkish and some simple sentences in Zulu, but that doesn't make me fluent -- okay, I'll stop ranting). As you can see, I don't really buy those explanations.
I've got some Circle missions lined up, don't fret. Admittedly timelines may need to be adjusted to put them in because I started writing them before this one, but we'll see where the editing takes us. -
My thoughts. (SPOILERS) by
on 2014-02-20 22:04:00 UTC
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WARNING: THE FOLLOWING REVIEW CONTAINS SPOILERS FOR THE PREVIOUSLY POSTED STORY. JUST A HEADS UP.
I really liked how Eledhwen seemed to take on the properties of her chosen disguise. It's a mechanic I really like, and one I don't feel like I see enough of in other PPC stories. It lends itself to comedy (and heck, drama sometimes too) very well. The one point I would raise regarding it, though, was that Spock didn't really seem to be affected when he was disguised as a human cadet (nice touch making him look like Sylar, by the way). Just a little consistency bugbear, but I felt it should be pointed out.
I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about having Christianne being triggered, but I actually wound up appreciating it as a device. Not only does it make her character seem more real, it actually creates a sense of genuine distress. I felt like that was a far more accurate reaction than the typical PPC hyperbole of slamming one's head against a wall due to how stupid the fic is. That being said, you do have some of those over-exaggerated moments yourself (not so bad as head-walling, mind you), and they sort of clash with the more serious triggered reaction. It made it a bit more difficult for me to accept the overall gravity of the situation.
Regarding Mrs. Jones: I can't defend the character by any stretch of the imagination. She's woefully out of place, more suitable to some Fifties or Sixties sitcom family than Star Trek. That being said: no society, no generation, is mentally monolithic. Not everyone shares the prevailing ideals. You are going to have outliers. Trek may be progressive, but as we see DS9 and later TNG episodes, it's not a utopia. I could see a vaguely Mrs. Jones-like character existing in the Star Trek universe, but her character would have to be altered. Maybe she wants her daughter to pursue a family life because she doesn't want her to be killed by some oil slick monster light years away from Earth.
Finally, the concluding charge list. These two giant paragraphs (one for Seraphina, one for Stupock) are really not good. They kill the overall pacing and repeat just about everything you've already critiqued about the story up to that point. A bit of advice for you and everyone else when it comes to charge lists: generalize. Instead of going over every single point of contention, just present it as something 'multiple counts of making canonical Star Trek characters OOC' or 'creating unknown artifacts of dubious power.' You've already told us all the plot-breaking points. Sum up.
I do appreciate that you actually incapacitated the Sue and Stupock in some way before reading the charges, however. Too many times (including, I will admit, a few times in my own missions) I've seen agents just read off the charges to the Sues or Stus like a supervillain monologuing to the hero. I sometimes wonder why the Sue or Stu just doesn't take off the agent's head while he or she is staring at a notepad full of charges. So thank you for taking that into consideration.
Some minor things:
-- "her partner (and girlfriend) Eledhwen Elerossiel" This line feels forced, especially with the parentheses. There's enough in the story that shows the audience that Eledhwen and Christianne are a couple.
-- Spock spends quite a bit of time just blithely listening to Chistianne and Eledhwen snark and discuss matters about the PPC. I know his memory was coming back slowly, but it still felt like they just forgot he was there sometimes.
All in all, this is a pretty solid piece. I like the interactions between your agents and the characterization you give them. Kudos to you! I await your next story with eagerness.
PC -
Thank you for that long and thoughtful critique! by
on 2014-02-20 22:19:00 UTC
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I've started to notice that my chargelists are getting unwieldy. I'll take your suggestion into consideration the next time around! Seriously, it is starting to remind me of my own ranting against walls-o-deduction in BBC Sherlock fanfics, where you can clearly tell Sherlock's deducting something because it's a humongous wall of text.
I do agree that there is room in the Trek society for someone socially conservative like Mrs Jones, but like you said, it's gotta be more justified than a 'I just want you to get married and give me grandchildren though I am too young to be a grandma'. Because that's problematic. I don't know how justified Christianne and Eledhwen are in giving her the Weeping Angel treatment, but I can attest to having my first impression of her be a very IT Crowd-esque 'ARE YOU FROM THE PAST?!' and that might've bled over a little too much.
As far as my Agents are concerned, it's 'fun' and 'games' and sarcastic quips until someone gets violently possessive of their romantic partners. I'll work on syncing the serious aspects and the funny aspects.
Hm, that is true, disguised Spock should be a little more disconcerted (probably touching his ears and looking horrified, at the least). And probably launching into a emotional rant once before catching himself and going all 'I really need to remember that I'm also part-Vulcan'. There was a lot more potential for comedy in there that I missed. Woop.
It was the terms that the PPC agents were using that triggered his memories, and Intel and firemagic both made remarks about this which I tried to address by having him mumble stuff about Sues. For me, Spock is a character that only speaks when it's necessary; joining a conversation in which he doesn't know (or is just starting to remember) the subject is something illogical. Perhaps if the Agents took greater care in remembering that he was there and recognising earlier on that something is Seriously Wrong with him remembering all the Sues...
Anyway, thanks for this thought-provoking critique! I'll keep them in mind as I force my Agents to brave the wastes of the Circle of Lemmings. -
Nothing wrong with analysis by
on 2014-02-20 15:31:00 UTC
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Eledhwen started being vulcan-ish so fast it's uncanny. And hilarious.
Congrats on making the team!
“You mean the Sue’s soul is the number 42?” wondered Christianne sarcastically. Eledhwen facepalmed.
Lol. I eagerly await her failure to learn to fly. Preferrably from a great height.
I forgot you'd been wandering around the Circle of Lemmings! *Passes bleepka*
... Wait, Sues are basically illogical, sparkly Q's in this continuum. Uh... I've gotta go hide under something. And the bracelet is one-ring-ish. Eeek! -
Nothing, indeed. by
on 2014-02-22 16:43:00 UTC
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Thanks! Our first episode is airing... around the end of this week. Super exciting!
Everyone likes that line. I'm not entirely sure why. And Eledhwen, I imagine, gets along with Vulcans far better than nymphs and sky-elves and stuff.
-swigs Bleepka- Thank you, and now I have to go back into its murky, glittery depths.
It is, though. It is a sparkly Sueish One Ring. As a bracelet. It even gives you visions of the previous/rightful owner. -
That was good. by
on 2014-02-20 10:11:00 UTC
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And Corolla's still out to sentientize consoles, I see...
“You mean the Sue’s soul is the number 42?” GREAT!
I also liked Christianne's rants (who's Jim, by the way?) and the random hen. Despite the fact that both Agents were REALLY suffering from the fic, I couldn't stop laughing. Oh, and cat Spock.
However, you handled the more serious stuff well too. Good job! -
Jim as in Jim Kirk. by
on 2014-02-20 14:19:00 UTC
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It's a play off one of McCoy's favourite lines, "he's dead, Jim".
It is also a part of this song called Star Trekkin, which is a song with an extremely odd music video. Extremely. Odd.
Corolla is either amassing an army, or she just wants company now that she's in a different department from Nikki and Sergio. :P
Thank you, though! -
Some critique... by
on 2014-02-20 08:36:00 UTC
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... first of all, that was a smashing mission! I enjoyed having real!Spock along for the ride and I think you got his character down to a T. Your descriptions are nice and compact, yet very informative. Dialogue flows nicely and information is presented to the reader in a way that allows someone who hasn't watched Star Trek to get in on the action.
As far as I can tell, there are no SPaG mistakes in your text. Hats off to you and your beta readers!
My major source of concern with this mission was the treatment of Mrs. Jones:
"Christianne had considered killing Mrs Jones, but Eledhwen had pointed out that they didn’t have enough charges to justify it, despite the woman being extremely problematic for the twenty-third country. So, in the end, Mrs Jones had been tracked down and sent back in time to an era where her mindset would’ve been more acceptable. Chances were, she would have no idea how to survive without proper plumbing and technology. It was simultaneously a punishment and an attempt to put her in her proper place (in time)."
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but Christianne wanted to liquidate a woman whose only crime-- from what is shown in your excepts-- is being socially conservative, yet in a really benign way ("When are the grandchildren?"). Instead, sheWeeping Angel'edplonked Mrs. Jones in the past hoping that she dies from lack of amenities.
This feels uncomfortably like your agents going full Thought Police. -
Socially conservative in a 23rd century setting. by
on 2014-02-20 08:47:00 UTC
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I'll try not to repeat this in the future (the Thought Police-y thing) but...
Star Trek is set in a setting where women are allowed to do whatever they want. It is a triumph of the progressive feminist agenda which has discarded gender roles and the idea that women should aspire only to marriage and childbearing. Even nowadays that idea is still ingrained in modern society as female politicans (especially in the US) are either branded with or exploit the concept of motherhood versus career.
In a setting where Seraphina should have had the choice and a family support base to pursue her dreams of Starfleet we have her mother, Mrs Jones, who seems to only be allowing her daughter to go to Starfleet Academy to find a man to marry and have children with. This is antithetical to the ideals of Star Trek.
She gets really bad in the chapters after the ones we covered, but basically all we (me, Intel, Dawn, and Hermione) got was that this seemingly benign characterisation was actually malicious to the progressive setting that Star Trek is supposed to take place in.
That being said, I wasn't intending to thought police anyone, and I apologise if that seemed to be the case. This is probably one of the reasons why this mission felt like a feminist lens on the fic -- perhaps there are, indeed, people in the 23rd century who cling to those outdated notions, but the fact that it's so prominently displayed and portrayed as not as problematic as it should be (just like the issues of consent in the fic)... just didn't mesh with the intent of Star Trek. -
Not entirely ... by
on 2014-02-20 13:56:00 UTC
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In the Original Series episode "Who Mourns For Adonais", McCoy assumes that Lieutenant Palamas will resign her commission as soon as she finds "the right man". I don't recall anyone suggesting that she could be a Starfleet officer and a wife.
I can't speak for the reboot series, not even for Leonard Nimoy's last screen appearances can I make myself watch those films. -
The Sixties. by
on 2014-02-20 14:01:00 UTC
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The philosophy of Star Trek remains the same if you continue down the spinoffs (TNG, VOY. DS9). Star Trek has a history of slipping progressive things into a show during a non-progressive time and so, sometimes, had to play with the network.
No excuse for the Reboot to be problematic (there's a new can of worms, Carol Marcus undies scene) and definitely no excuse for its fanworks to be, sans justification (which usually doesn't come with Mrs Jones's characterisation). -
I see. Thank you for explaining it to me. by
on 2014-02-20 09:07:00 UTC
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Oh, I forgot to add (not a nitpick):
"Well, one of those creatures is something we call the Mary Sue. They usually take on the guise of a young female-bodied humanoid, usually pale-skinned, able-bodied, heterosexual, and privileged."
Holy cow. I've never thought of it like that.
Then again, demographically speaking, white non-handicapped heterosexual people are the majority in the USA. Since a sizeable number of Sues tend to be wish fulfillment characters, it would make sense for the writer to base their Suvian persona on themselves, hence the prevalence of the above described Suvian. -
And yet there are those who want them ... by
on 2014-02-20 09:17:00 UTC
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...to be role models for women.
Also demographically speaking, it is those sorts of households that have the money for a computer and internet connection on which to write these things, since most of American society is biased in their favour (mostly unconsciously).
Still, people are indeed capable of writing characters (and OCs) that are not from their culture, gender, sexuality, or ability level. It would require a great deal of research, which is probably the reason why it doesn't get written. And that's a shame.
Incidentally, I got the go-ahead to add an argument like this to the FAQ For Other People: since Mary Sues only represent such a thin category in the broad spectrum of women (and only the very privileged category at that) they can hardly be considered role models or empowering for women.
(I think I have been turned into a Wendy Wellesley on this Board. Not sure if that's a bad thing or a good thing,) -
Bingo. by
on 2014-02-20 09:43:00 UTC
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You're right on point about affording Internet.
"Still, people are indeed capable of writing characters (and OCs) that are not from their culture, gender, sexuality, or ability level. It would require a great deal of research, which is probably the reason why it doesn't get written. And that's a shame."
>That strange feeling when I realized that my upcoming DIA spinoff features five agents that are all nonhumans
As for that Wendy Wellesley thing, I wouldn't worry too much about that. It's very important to make sure that human rights are supported and promoted everywhere! So long as you don't subscribe to Tumblr-brand Social Justice, you should be fine. Seriously, I've come to consider parts of that website as the mirror image of 4chan's /pol/ board. Same type of blind hate, but different receivers. -
Well, there's Tumblr Social Justice, and there's... by
on 2014-02-20 17:43:00 UTC
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people who use the ideas behind the social justice movement on Tumblr and use it to further propagate hate.
Which is exceedingly annoying. -
((Reply to both)) by
on 2014-02-20 19:06:00 UTC
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@ Lily:
I'll say! That reminds me of a comic I was shown a while back. OP makes a very valid point and then people get angry in the comments section. It appears the only winning move against these people is simply not to play.
@ hermione:
A sampler of the very best of the very worst. At least 2 of them are obvious trolls, but this is what I think about when I say "blind hate". Luckily, we get the occasional shining beacon of sanity amid the chaos.
I think that we're dealing with a vocal minority here. The funny thing is that most of the people who spread this material actually don't belong to the groups involved. It's really painful to watch.
Personally, my test to see if a certain blogger is a poisonous Social Justice blogger is to see if they engage in Kafkatrapping. If I start to see guilt-tripping, that's not the sign of someone who cares about equality. -
It's all fine lines. by
on 2014-02-20 20:41:00 UTC
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The thing with social inequalities is that they are sometimes unconsciously expressed. I would never try to oppress trans people, but for the longest time I made comments equating gender and genitals. I would never try to oppress non-binary people, but I still think in "ladies and gentleman" and have to consciously change my language to be inclusive.
Tumblr social justice dances the line between saying "a lot of this is unconsciously programmed into people in an oppressor group so be careful what you say" and "you're unconsciously racist/homophobic/sexist and you should feel ashamed" (Kafkatrapping).
So I guess what I'm saying is that too often, the former is mistaken for the latter, and I'd rather it wasn't because it's actually a valid point.
And, if you don't mind, I'd like to end the conversation here. I feel like if I keep trying to sound knowledgeable about this I'll eventually say something stupid. I'd rather stop before that happens. -
No worries! It's a sensitive subject after all. (nm) by
on 2014-02-20 21:47:00 UTC
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Oh my god. by
on 2014-02-20 20:38:00 UTC
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While I do agree that it is wrong to appropriate a sexual or gender identity to fit in, I also believe those comments are written by total a-holes. OP was feeling marginalised by the amount of uncalled-for and completely generalised hate. The way to respond is not with more hate. This is why we can't have nice things.
For me, privilege doesn't make someone a bad person. Ignorance does. Learning about the situation and giving people the voice to air grievances in a respectful manner is being a good ally. -
Reading the reponses to that comic, by
on 2014-02-20 22:02:00 UTC
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I believe the expression is "I threw up in my mouth a little bit", isn't it? When you get this horrible sour taste in the back of your throat because what you're seeing cannot be reconciled with anything positive that you have come to believe about society? It doesn't actually have to do with vomit, does it? Because I wasn't nauseous. Just disgusted.
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And then I looked a little further along the chain.. by
on 2014-02-20 22:19:00 UTC
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And I saw that, for all the people on Tumblr acting awful, there were just as many who were as disgusted by said awfulness as I was. So maybe there's still hope after all.
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That's Sturgeon's Law, my friend. (nm) by
on 2014-02-20 22:26:00 UTC
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*responses by
on 2014-02-20 22:03:00 UTC
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Why do you spell-check every word in the body of a post, but not in the title, Firefox? I don't get you.
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Completely agreed. by
on 2014-02-20 21:56:00 UTC
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If only more people had that mindset, discussions would get somewhere.
That reminds me of a quote from St. Augustine: "Cum dilectione hominum et odio vitiorum", or "With love for mankind and hatred of sins." -
Depends where on Tumblr you hang out. by
on 2014-02-20 16:24:00 UTC
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That might be a small group, but usually what you see is someone saying "a lot of the language we use to describe things is structured against LGBTQIA people" and someone else misinterpreting it as that graphic you linked to. Attacking a straw man because it's easier than admitting you've internalized something discriminatory.
And what is it that you see as "blind hate"? As far as I've seen, people, especially from minority groups, are well-informed about issues and any hate they have against privileged groups is quite justified. Even if it overgeneralizes, saying "not all of us are like that!" ignores the unconscious ways we all end up perpetrating negative ideas.
I wouldn't lump all of Tumblr social justice together. It's far too multi-faceted. -
Well, this by
on 2014-02-20 18:59:00 UTC
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... However, the people I have seen on Tumblr who end up attacking people for somewhat batty reasons (Example: one person posts something along the lines of "I love 'let it go,' from Frozen!" Next person posts "that was an awful movie because there were no X people in it, you are an awful person for liking it,") are also not the ones who tend to be well informed or thoughtful.
Obviously, people like that don't make up the majority, or even a very significant portion of the community, but that's the kind of thing that people who only hear about social justice from the outside hear about, because it's dramatic and it confirms their bias that these people are oversensitive and do not need to be taken seriously. So the people who use social justice as an excuse to be jerks do far more damage to social justice than a person liking a fandom that isn't 100% inclusive.
(TBH, I'm also real tired of getting told on the internet by people I don't know that I should give up on understanding their problems or being a good person because I happened to be born white in the US. Because clearly my skin color and the economic status of the family I was born into make me a bad person who cannot learn to be civilized... hey wait. I'm also sick of being told that "you have no right to talk about struggling, because you aren't X," because people, don't tell other people they're worthless or don't have a right. You don't know them, and more importantly, you don't take people's choices and voice away. I don't care if it's a generalization that you're making about a group that happens to include me, it's still not playing nice.)
... That said, 90% of that tends to come from the same tiny handful of people. -
I feel ya. by
on 2014-02-20 20:18:00 UTC
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When I see posts that say disparaging things about categories of privilege that I belong to (cisgendered, able-bodied), I just remember that they aren't talking about me and that I can always strive to be a better person by not doing what they are accusing my group of doing.
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I've seen that fic on the Circle... by
on 2014-02-20 03:35:00 UTC
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And I have to say, bravo for taking it on. I haven't read your mission yet, but from the description it sounds great. I was wondering if I could adopt Chekhov? And maybe the stone?
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They are yours! by
on 2014-02-20 03:37:00 UTC
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And since when was this on the Circle? I've never seen it there, and I go Circle diving when I'm bored.
(Yes I am a bit masochistic. Why do you ask?) -
When fighting Mary Sues-- by
on 2014-02-20 01:24:00 UTC
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--it's hard NOT to involve some aspects of the job with feminisim. Especially since Mary Sue, is more often than naught the antithesis of a strong female character that most feminists I know like to vouch for in entertainment.
Glad to see another mission from you by the by. I just got through reading your missions from the BBC Sherlock continuum and they actually inspired me to sit down and watch the show properly (something of which my Sherlockian friends have tried and failed to get me to do on several occasions). Getting into a show after reading a fanfic sporking of another fanfic--life works in strange ways!! XD -
Funny, that. by
on 2014-02-20 02:36:00 UTC
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Ever since I lost all respect for Moffat as a writer after "He Said, She Said" (watch it. It's like the opening of a Circle of Lemmings fic. Scratch that, its definitely a Circle of Lemmings fic. This is not the Doc and Clara I had in HQ, I swear; he keeps on caling Clara perfect and my Sue alarms are ringing) I haven't been as enthusiastic about sporking things that he's written as before.
But who knows. Maybe something truly awful will come up and I will have no choice since I'm the only one on the Board who's written missions for Beeblock.
That being said, I'm tempted to have my Agents tackle Elementary next. -
Hopping in. by
on 2014-02-20 18:37:00 UTC
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I don't watch Dr. Who, but... looking at your list of things that Moffat did there, and looking at the things he's done in Sherlock (and how quickly that is escalating!) I'm not as enthused about him steering the next few seasons...
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Only then? by
on 2014-02-20 03:46:00 UTC
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I'd cemented Moffat as making every major character on the show a Sue since A Good Man Goes To War, particularly the scene where it's basically stated "Everyone loves you, Doctor! How could anyone not?" and then all of these sooper kewl new characters all come in just to say how great the Doctor is and how they'd do anything for him, despite the audience not having seen hide nor scale of any of them up until that point. Before that episode, I'd thought that the forced quirkiness and the everyone-who-dislikes-our-protagonist-is-automatically-evil-itude of the Moffat-penned episodes were just due to sloppiness. Now I'm more certain that Moffat never moved past his stage of idealizing, stylizing, and Sueifying existing characters. Lots of people go through one, but most people aren't paid money to show that phase on international television.
...Ahem. Sorry about that. I've been bottling up my anti-Moffat sentiment for a while, and this is the first time I've gotten to poke a few holes in the barrier to relieve some pressure. -
Wasn't AGMGTW more "everyone is scared of the Doctor"? (nm) by
on 2014-02-21 07:20:00 UTC
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Come with me and we can vent our hate for the Moff together. by
on 2014-02-20 03:52:00 UTC
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Well, it was that precise video that marked the moment in which my respect for him vanished altogether, but up until then it had been dwindling.
To be honest, it started in the Sherlock fandom because he was being a blatant misogynist. The only female character that ever got a good development arc is Molly Hooper and even then when compared to other writers it's not that great. And as for Irene Adler -- what's the point of introducing a lesbian character just to have her fall in love with Sherlock? You can have your in-universe explanations of showing that maybe she and John just have Sherlock as an exception, but I honestly cannot trust Moffat to actually make it that way.
Dethrone Moffat and put me in his place. -
Wait, Irene was a lesbian? by
on 2014-02-20 04:25:00 UTC
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I would have sworn she was bisexual from the beginning, before she even knew who Sherlock Holmes was.
Though I agree, Moffat is NOT one of my favorite writers. I would not say he killed Doctor Who for me, but Clara makes me itch for my sporks more then Pretty Pink Princess of Love, babysitter of main character Twilight Sparkle and leader of sparkly Crystal ponies, Mi Amore Cadenza. At least Cadence is relatively unimportant, and is actually not that poorly written. Clara... I'm not a fan, let's leave it at that. -
She did say she was gay in BELG. by
on 2014-02-20 04:37:00 UTC
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Given her line of work, I imagine she keeps most of that under wraps and is very good at pretend. However, dominatrixes (dominatrices? maybe? I don't really Latin) don't have sex with their clients... usually.
I wrote Clara for the Blackout and I defended her against those who said she was a Sue, but most of that was before the Name of the Doctor where she becomes so entangled in the Doctor's life that she's practically been born to save him and I'm like ugh really
Clara could be an amazing character -- just look at Oswin Oswald in Asylum of the Daleks. But Moffat just ruins so much potential. -
UGH, YES! by
on 2014-02-20 13:29:00 UTC
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So many of Moffat's ideas could have been so awesome if he'd just had someone else around to look over his work and offer suggestions or tell him what makes no sense at all. Everyone needs a beta-reader(though I believe in television they call it a script editor or script doctor), but Moffat either has a sycophantic one or feels that he's above them. In fact, if I had one reaction to Day of the Doctor, it would be "So much wasted potential!" I mean, they end the previous episode trapped in the physical manifestation of the Doctor's timeline, for crying out loud! I cannot think of a better way you could kickstart an adventure between New and Classic Doctors than that! Well, I can, but they would all require bogged-down exposition and ludicrous hand-waving to explain why everyone is here and why they are so much older than they were back when they were the Doctor. This was practically handed to the crew, and they just dropped the idea entirely, starting the next episode with Clara teaching an Inspirational Quotations class at, what, her third job? Not only is that a waste, it opens a plot hole the size of Kansas. How did they get out of there when the Doctor had lost access to his TARDIS? At least the whole "throwing people into the Doctor's timeline" thing might potentially create a future story arc for the Great Intelligence, since as a disembodied consciousness he would have no restrictions in the time funnel, which could potentially lead to him having enormous power over or absolute knowledge of time itself, coupled with information on the Doctor's entire history, even the parts he can't or doesn't want to remember. But that would be interesting, so I doubt it will happen until Moffat leaves the show.
And the bloody Tower of London door scene! It opens yet another plot hole because those were not all the same sonic screwdriver; 8-10's was destroyed and replaced in an episode that Moffat wrote himself, and for the scene to work otherwise would imply that sonic items have some sort of hive-mind processor, it adds 400 years to the Doctor's lifespan just to make the scene work, and it ended up being completely pointless just for the sake of a cheap gag. And all of the deus ex machinas, the other ten Doctors showing up out of nowhere despite not being told where to go being only the biggest! How did Day of the Doctor get such rave reviews? At least Time of the Doctor tried to wrap up Eleven's plotlines in a way that made sense, though the effectiveness of that ranged from "really quite good" to "absolute nonsense", and it wasted the potential Twelve plotline of the Doctor trying to find a new source of regenerations by having the Amazing Teleporting Spacial Rift give him a few extra lives for free. But at least that episode tried!
I wish I could get mad at some Sherlock stuff, too, but I've never been to into it. I've never liked shows where the protagonist is an absolute jerk but is treated in-universe as the unequivocal best at what he does to the extent that he is the only one that can be right about pretty much anything. That might have gotten better later on, but I didn't try finding out. -
I'd still rather have him than bring Uncle Rusty back... (nm) by
on 2014-02-20 16:21:00 UTC
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To each their own, but I rather liked Russel T. Davies. by
on 2014-02-20 18:57:00 UTC
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Of course, not everything he did was great, and there were a few things that were really bad (shakes fist angrily in the direction of The Next Doctor), but I'm of the mindset that it's better to veer toward being silly and campy as opposed to irritatingly overdramatic. A lot of the problems with Moffat come from the fact that he treats his ideas with a lot more gravitas than they actually have. At least when Davies had some ridiculous ideas, he didn't try to play them off for drama. I'm not saying he should come back, though; he's had his fun, and I remember reading somewhere that he started finding the expereince stressful near the end and wasn't really planning to write for the Doctor again.
Oh, and Lily, technically speaking Jack Harkness was from something Moffat made, since his first appearance was in The Empty Child. I doubt that he was entirely Moffat's idea, though, and at any rate he wasn't an immortal omnisexual then. -
Moffat has never and will never write Love And Monsters. by
on 2014-02-21 12:10:00 UTC
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Or are we glossing over the fact that Uncle Rusty wrote the worst episode of Doctor Who ever made (including the worst extant excesses of Classic Who - looking at you, Delta And The Bannermen) in favour of harping on about how Moffat is literally Satan? I get that he's a horrible person and Doctor Who could be a lot better, but it could also be a hell of a lot worse and under Davies it generally was. Davies wanted to tell Adam West Doctor stories and sucked at it, Moffat wanted to tell Jesus Doctor stories and sucked at it marginally less.
Put it like this: the best Moffat story (IMO, YMMV) is Blink, which is brilliant. The best Davies story is (see previous caveat) The Waters Of Mars, which is pretty good. The worst stories, well... there's a lot to choose from whichever one you look at, but the pool of sewage runoff is much larger in Rusty's case.
Oh, and Neil Gaiman has repeatedly made clear that he's slightly less interested in becoming the showrunner for Doctor Who than he is in putting his genitals in a bucket of boiling tar, so will people kindly shut up about it please? -
Literally Satan? by
on 2014-02-21 18:30:00 UTC
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I never said anyone was literally Satan. I said that Moffat was not a good writer. There are a lot of steps between those two points. Besides, if the literal Satan ever wrote an episode of Doctor Who, it would only be broadcast during the End of All Things, and the egregious idiocy contained within it would compel everyone to run from their houses in droves and smash everything in sight up with hammers. I have no idea how he'd get it past the producers, though.
In response to your first point: ugh, I am just so tired of everyone harping on and on about Love and Monsters, holding it up as the worst thing to have happened to the show in any and all of its thirty-three seasons. Yes, it's a bad episode. The pacing is a mess, the characters are all idiots, and being condemned to spend eternity as an immobile face fused to a concrete tile is a fate worse than death but it's treated as a good thing and handed to us with a side helping of unfortunate implications. But Love and Monsters was also an untested prototype for a new episode format that eventually, once it was perfected, brought us Blink, and it was primarily created as a scenario in which the villain could be a silly-looking green face-coated guy in a loincloth created by a nine-year-old boy. Considering the restraints, I think that they did an okay job. If someone were to do a similar episode, about ordinary people who encountered the Doctor in the past bonding over their experiences and trying to find out more about him, and just gave it a better villain, made its characters less dense, and cut out the padding, it could easily do well, since the premise is actually pretty good.
There are so many more bad episodes that, even without controlling for the two factors I mentioned above and just accepting it as it was, are worse. Even in the same season, you find the abysmal The Idiot's Lantern, which for some reason I never see anyone talking about, and once you put Classic Who in the running, since people who say it's "the worst of all time" would thus have to factor in all episodes of all time, it has to stand up against the incalculable nonsense of The Twin Dilemma and The Happiness Patrol. Love and Monsters isn't good by any standard, don't get me wrong, but it's more an episode that tried to do something new, only to crash and burn in the attempt and give us something mediocre at best, rather than an aberration for the ages. -
Waters of Mars? Really? by
on 2014-02-21 12:24:00 UTC
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I didn't particularly like that one.
My main problems with RTD are and were:
-The cringeworthy episodes. Love and Monsters, anything with the Slitheen in it... oh, and The Long Game, which I have an irrational hatred for. (Did I mention The Daleks Take Manhatten yet?)
-The deii ex machina. I realise these are traditional in Doctor Who, but... Last of the Time Lords. I get the whole 'lots of psychic energy through people talking about the Doctor' thing, but... why does that mean he can fly? Is that a thing Time Lords can do? Fly if they have enough power? Is this related to flying Daleks? Are the Time Lords Daleks?
Actually, in that selfsame episode - we got the strong impression the TARDIS was pretty much unfixable after being turned into a Paradox Machine. Y'know, up until Jack shot it. Then it was fine.
-The constant escalation. Look at the five finales (counting The End of Time): 'The Daleks will destroy Future Earth! No, they'll destroy Present Earth! No, the Master has destroyed Present Earth! No, the Daleks will destroy Present Earth and all other life! No, the Master will destroy Present Earth and then Rassilon will wipe out the universe!!!!!' I can't help but read that in a constantly increasing Dalek voice.
In all fairness, I really liked Doomsday, Journey's End, and End of Time 2. And in all other fairness, the procession did continue with Moffat's 'No, the TARDIS has destroyed LITERALLY EVERYTHING! No, River has destroyed the concept of Time itself!!!!!'. But the mid-season finales were both fairly low key in terms of destruction, and so was The Name of the Doctor. So at least Moffat has shown the ability to calm down.
Putting it another way: there are a lot of episodes from both that I really like. But I can't come up with any Moffat episodes I actively dislike. And his episodes under RTD were just brilliant.
hS -
Why didn't you like WoM? (nm) by
on 2014-02-22 01:19:00 UTC
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Eh, I think we are focusing on different things. by
on 2014-02-21 16:07:00 UTC
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RTD had some pretty awful plots, yes, but what I think ticks me and Outhra off more about Moffat is the way he handles his characters.
In the RTD era his scripts were read by a certain Helen Raynor, which suggests that there was at least someone to object to truly outrageous things. Hence the watchability of his earlier episodes.
However, let's look at his female companions.
Amy Pond is a kissogram who's lost her parents to a time crack. Doctor first meets her as kid and comes back to find her grown up, on her wedding day. Adventures ensue, they recruit Rory after Amy kisses the Doctor, yada yada. They save all of time, reset everything (I'll get back to the reset thing) and Amy's parents turn up. Except then in the next seasons they are completely forgotten again. RTD companions had families that actively took part in the arcs for the companion's development, grounding said companion. Moffat-era companions have, like, drifting blob convenience-parents that are called up sometimes but forgotten in plot holes most of the time. Heck, how were we to know Arthur Weasley was Rory's dad until he randomly shows up in season seven?
Then there's the plot where she keeps on getting pregnancy scares, and it turns out that she's been kidnapped in order to give birth to a child (which is just freaky and awful and problematic on the feminist front on several different levels) who will become the Doctor's killer. And that is River Song.
River Song's first episode in the 10th Doctor series had so much promise. She was an archaeologist, a professor, a consummate badass who has a past with the Doctor somehow. And then we find out that hey, she was born to kill the Doctor. And she spends most of her life obsessing over him. And she happens to be the daughter and the childhood best friend of her parents, so she just names herself in the end.
Speaking of people born to do something to the Doctor, there's Clara. I could link you all once again that little short prequel that Moffat wrote, where the Doctor and Clara are talking about each other in a way that smacks of Suefic writing. Suddenly Clara, who had such a good beginning in Asylum of the Daleks and has this mystery of constantly popping up again -- suddenly that's explained as "oh, she was born to save the Doctor!" Her entire reason for existing is, once more, tied to a man. Her parents are also amorphous blob convenience parents that gain shape and form whenever the plot calls for it, and most of the time we aren't sure what the hell she's even doing outside of being the companion in the first place (she had a job as a... nanny? Au pair? And then during the Day of the Doctor she's... what, teaching? Her backstory is inconsistent at best).
(Liz One... oh man. It wasn't enough for the Davies era to crack a joke about the Doctor making her the virgin queen no more. Moffat had to dive into that, did he? Suddenly Liz One's only purpose ever is to get married to the Doctor. I feel like that's OOC to some degree, but I don't claim to be an expert on Liz One's character.)
All I'm saying is that RTD era companions were clearly human beings with families and lives outside the Doctor. Amy seems to have gone from kissogram to model, Rory's a nurse -- but those occupations just feel like shiny tack-ons. Heck, we inexplicably go from happily married couple to just divorced couple, and the only indicator that you would ever pick up about the transition there is through Pond Life. This reliance on mini-episodes to carry out relevant plot points is like if we all decided to develop our Agents in Interludes and have that explain why their personalities change between missions.
Clara's... something. She does nanny things and teaching things. We're never quite certain what job she does. We're never quite certain who her family and friends are. I can attest that writing Clara Oswald for the Blackout was one of the most difficult things I've had to do in the DW fandom, because there is just so little about her and her backstory that could be used. She's just a series of sassy remarks on legs. Who then happens to have her entire life defined by the Doctor.
I'm just saying, Moffat's plots might be a bit more exciting than RTD's, but at least RTD's companions weren't constantly on the brink of Canon Suedom.
Moffat wrote amazing things with the Weeping Angels, I'll give him that. He's good at monsters. But he's frankly awful at companions. And his tendency to conclude the seasons (as well as an entire episode) with things that reset the universe/timeline suggests that he's reluctant to have the Doctor deal with the consequences of his actions and/or doesn't want to have to explain why his episodes contradict previous ones.
As for the episodes themselves? At least I was genuinely terrified of his RTD-era episodes. Now I can sit through Zygons trying to take over the world by infiltrating UNIT without batting an eyelash. Moffat-era episodes have lost that element of fright to them in recent works in order to just continually glorify the Doctor. -
That's only one of the things I dislike, but it's big. by
on 2014-02-21 22:06:00 UTC
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Ah, so Moffat did have a script editor at first, and most likely just decided that he was beyond them when he became head writer. (looks her up) Oh! Helen Raynor wrote that Sontaran two-parter for the Tenth Doctor! I loved that story! And she script-edited some of my favorite New Who episodes! Yeees! This just in: Helen Raynor is awesome. It's too bad that she hasn't done anything for the series since 2008.
I finally actually watched that She Said, He Said video that you linked, and... ouch. It's just a vehicle for the characters to say "You're awesome! No, you're awesome! You're perfect! Yes, I am!" Where even are they? Some sort of time-suspension wax museum? There's the chess-playing Cyberman from Nightmare in Silver and one of the living snowmen in there, and both were destroyed in the first episode that they appeared in. I'd almost say that this is one of the locations within the physical manifestation of the Doctor's timeline, and those objects are just projections, which would at least go a step or two toward explaining why the one that isn't talking freezes up once the other starts talking about them, if this wasn't a prequel to Name of the Doctor and thus made to be watched before it. And even then, why would they just start monologuing like that? Would this be some sort of displaced zone which they could only escape by complimenting one another? EXPLAIN! EXPLAIN!
Now back to characters, and Clara in particular. I never understood what Clara was supposed to be doing in the story. At least Amy and Rory had consistent backgrounds, even though the stories never did naything with them. Clara is constantly in a state of limbo, character-wise, where you can tell that someone might have attempted to develop her into something at some point, but the whole affair fell through and left her flat. I understand that it was initially part of the mystery not to know where she came from, but a character can be mysterious and still rounded and entertaining. Clara is so one-note she quickly becomes grating and annoying, we're never given anything to ground her to reality, and the ultimate explanation of her mystery, that she is one of a few hundred thousand Claras that have been scattered through space-time through poorly-elaborated-upon contrivance to save the Doctor from an unexplained threat, is stupid on the surface and horrifying if examined.
What happens if the current Clara dies? Does the Doctor just... go find a new one? Is this why Clara's had three jobs with no connection to one another? Because they are three different Claras, and the Doctor finds them so interchangeable that he just goes and picks up a different one each time? Is this why we never see the Doctor and Trenzalore-Clara leave the physical manifestation of his timeline? Because we'd see him just leaving her there and going off to go pick up teacher-Clara for more "wacky" adventures? "Oh, well, looks like you need to be me to get out of here! I tried to save you, but I couldn't. I'm terribly sorry. Lucky I've got a few thousand more Claras where you came from!" Oh god, now I'm thinking of moments in the series that support that characterization. I... I need to stop thinking about this.
Consequences! That's a good thing to change the subject to! The Eleventh Doctor never has to deal with the consequences of his actions. Remember when he edits Kazran Sardick's past, deliberately altering his mind by inserting himself into Sardick's history and setting up himself as a figure to be trusted? That's absolutely monstrous. There were multiple other Doctors that deliberately avoided doing things like that. Granted, some of them avoided it due to paradox and not the moral implications, but that only means that the Eleventh Doctor risked portions of time falling in around him so that he could mind-edit this bitter old man. He does not love the Doctor, so he must be forcibly altered into someone who does, and not only is he never questioned on it, it's treated as a good thing? Hmm, what sort of common fictional entity do we know that acts like that?
One of the reasons why I liked the Ninth Doctor's run is that it was all about consequences. The Doctor screws up, multiple times, and has to deal with the majority of the problems he causes. One of said problems almost ends up with a crazy Dalek Emperor taking over the Earth and turning it into a temple for his delusional godhead! There's one that didn't get tied up that always bothered me, the bit at the end of The Long Game where he left Adam Mitchell in the past with knowledge of and technology from the future, but it looks like I'm not the only person who noticed that disparity, since he ended up with a fiftieth anniversary tie-in comic that I really need to tack down at some point since I even enjoyed reading its summary from his page on the Doctor Who wiki- and I'm getting off-track.
Basically, in almost any show, the protagonist does something bad to someone for some reason, intentional or not, but they then has to deal with it. Sometimes it works out and the protagonist is forgiven, sometimes it's too late and things get too complicated to fix, which might perhaps end in one of the initial wronged party going on a downward spiral and turning evil, sometimes someone important dies or is sucked into another dimension or is otherwise left incapable of creating closure for the issue, but problems are recognized and handled in some way. In Moffat's Doctor Who, the Doctor can do anything he wants, up to and including breaking the laws of time, and Moffat and his team are unwilling or unable to allow him to turn around and try to face the problems head-on, or even to have him just wave his sonic screwdriver at them and then loudly declare that they all went away. At least in the latter case, the show would be acknowledging that he wasn't one hundred percent the best, since he did have issues to deal with, even if they were resolved in an anticlimactic manner.
As it is, though, we're just supposed to watch this guy do things for vague reasons and support him even as he's being a massive jerk to countless people and constantly forgetting that he is a time traveler. If we I can divert into territory that Moffat only editorially madated and supervised instead of writing directly, I could barely get through Victory of the Daleks because I had to hold in shouting the obvious solution to the contrived problem to the screen at the top of my lungs in the impossible hope that it would cause the characters from an episode written several years ago to suddenly remember that, oh yeah, one of them has a time machine. What? Characters that can resolve problems without having to resort to false drama and deus ex machina? What are those?
Also, this may tie into the "Eleven is awful for no good reason sometimes", or I might have just missed something: In Day of the Moon, the Silents try to manipulate humans into creating the space program and landing on the moon, and when the Doctor finds out, he uses a hypnotic message to trigger every human watching the moon landing broadcast to murder any Silent that they see at first sight. What exactly were the Silents doing that was so evil that Eleven had to psychically convince millions to kill in cold blood? The Doctor has never done anything like that before or since. This was the first time he'd seen them, or at least the first time he'd known that he'd seen them, so there had to be something within that one episode that prompted him to order genocide, right? What was it? -
In fairness, I always got a trickster god vibe from 11 by
on 2014-02-22 05:55:00 UTC
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I mean, look at him. He's all smiles and fun most of the time, at least outwardly, but he does a lot of stuff that's downright creepy or even full on evil once examined, and if you cross him too much he'll destroy your life (General Runaway) or outright murder you (that trader guy from Dinosaurs on a Spaceship). The whole point of the first Silence arc was he could be so destructive towards those who angered him half the universe was terrified of the man and wanted him destroyed at any cost. I actually think 11 was supposed to have this air of malevolence hidden, kind of like how 10 was capable of great wrath, but perhaps I'm giving Moffat too much credit.
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Re: reset button and female characters by
on 2014-02-21 17:29:00 UTC
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Would you agree that he's done that a bit with Series 3 of Sherlock, with Moriarty's return? I hope it's just someone using Moriarty's image, because if he survived, what was the point of Sherlock faking his death and make John wait two years? What was the point of that scene if they were just faking their death at each other?
And something about the handling of Mary's back story didn't sit well with me. What should have been her story about trying to erase the evidence of a past she doesn't want to share with John became Sherlock's story of doing whatever it takes to protect John's happiness. Plus the fact that they don't even reveal it, and not in the cool hint-y way in a "it's not important as long as she'swith her man". And her becoming pregnant definitely bothers me, because I wanted her and John and Sherlock to be this awesome crime-solving trio and having a baby requires at least one person to stay behind, and I bet they'll want to preserve the iconic Holmes/Watson.
And given everything you're saying about Moffat, I really don't trust him to fix these issues. -
You know what I just realised about that last episode? by
on 2014-02-21 17:36:00 UTC
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They whitewashed Wiggins.
That kid who was a Baker Street Irregular was originally called a "street Arab" by Watson. Admittedly this was disparaging, but... in BBC Sherlock, Wiggins is played by a white guy.
That aside, I am seriously holding out hope that Janine is the new Moriarty (as in, Moriarty's sister) and is messing with Sherlock as revenge for completely dismissing her. And Mary could be her Moran. But I lie in that halfway point between hoping it shows up and dreading it showing up because I no longer trust Moffat to do any good idea justice. -
So. much. potential. by
on 2014-02-21 19:35:00 UTC
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To be fair, the "street Arab" comment was only one line, and could have just a generic derogatory term rather than an indicator of ethnicity. But I don't know with these people. They have made London a lot whiter than it is.
Out of curiosity, do you know if there's ever been a POC Holmes? Or another POC Watson besides Lucy Liu (because Geordi LaForge might not count)?
I also saw a theory that Mary was also dating Janine to get into Magnussen's office. And considering how the fandom had a thing for shipping Moriarty/Moran, and that I kind of still want Johnlock to be a thing, I have to say I rather like the ship.
I too lie in that place. All we can do is have hope. And watch Elementary. -
Longer response later (maybe), but... by
on 2014-02-21 17:03:00 UTC
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... the idea of companions having lives outside the TARDIS is very Revived Series. In Old Who, I can't think of, um, any examples. I'm sure there are some, but I don't know them.
And both Amy and Clara still do vastly better on that score than the Old companions.
(Also, I don't think Amy's a model, though I'm not sure - since the perfume she advertised was named after a word of the Doctor's, I figured she had a hand in designing it)
Like I say, more later - once I've figured out what to say and/or think. ;)
hS -
Don't we see her doing photoshoots a few times? (nm) by
on 2014-02-22 01:50:00 UTC
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Given the social context in which DW was aired, by
on 2014-02-21 17:06:00 UTC
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I would have hoped that as the years progress, DW would get more and more progressive.
But then again, like how Star Trek reboot felt like a step backwards in the progressive legacy of the show, maybe I'm just constantly setting myself up for defeat.
I'll be in my corner with Elementary, Hannibal, and Sleepy Hollow. -
*joins you with Almost Human and Star Trek: DS9* by
on 2014-02-21 18:16:00 UTC
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In other news, I've watched the first episode of Elementary. I haven't had a chance to watch more, but I will. And I've been meaning to watch Sleepy Hollow.
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Yes! by
on 2014-02-21 20:29:00 UTC
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I love Almost Human. I hope they make Jorian canon. Also every time I watch it I imagine the wild planetside adventures of Bones and M'Benga and ugh yes.
Elementary is everything Sherlock isn't. Holmes is less of an asshole and more of a human, Watson is the baddest of asses, and oh wait until you see Irene Adler. I screamed in delight. Plus so much diversity and representation and Ms Hudson being trans. Yessss. -
And before I forget, by
on 2014-02-21 16:46:00 UTC
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The Moffat era had precious little in terms of queer representation. You had Vastra and Jenny as, like, basically the only queer couple that managed to survive more than one episode. Just like occasionally referring to Rory as Mr Pond isn't exactly feminist, having a transgendered horse, a set of "gay fat Anglican marines" referring to themselves as nothing but that, and Clara Oswald write off her bisexuality as a phase isn't exactly queer-friendly. Probably the best thing aside from Jenny and Vastra in the Moffat-era for queer representation was the Corsair, and that was in the Neil Gaiman episode. And the Corsair is dead.
RTD-era had Jack Harkness who, while an initial creation of Moffat's, has been expanded since then into the omnisexual we know today. RTD-era had Cassini ladies who actually lived through to the end of an episode. RTD-era had Jake and Ricky from the parallel universe who were in a relationship (okay, not explicit in-episode canon, but RTD had suggested it and it was in a deleted scene. Still better representation than fat gay Anglican marines imo). RTD-era has Alonso Frame, who got picked up by Jack at the end.
I can go on about Moffat being a giant sexist who erases asexuality and queerbaits John and Sherlock in Beeblock, who once said that the Queen should be played by a man, who once implied that he didn't want Amy Pond's character to be "wee and dumpy". I can go on about how Eleven has an alarming tendency to kiss people without their consent (most notably, a married lesbian woman). But I really shouldn't because I'll just be here all day. -
11 is also a creepy stalker! It was all over the Oswin arc. by
on 2014-02-22 02:37:00 UTC
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I think at least one of those episodes would've been improved by him introducing himself, but being interrupted by Oswin screaming, kicking him in the nadgers and running off.
The rest of the episode is him writhing in pain on the floor, clutching aforesaid nadgers and groaning. -
That would make for the most entertaining episode ever. (nm) by
on 2014-02-22 06:54:00 UTC
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They could even keep the "X of the Doctor" theme! by
on 2014-02-22 06:56:00 UTC
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11: Hi, I'm the Doc-
Oswin: AAAAAAAH! *KICK, run*
11: Hnnnn... *wheeze, gasp, fall*
*Title Card: Agony of the Doctor* -
This sounds like a meme waiting to happen. by
on 2014-02-22 07:04:00 UTC
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HORROR of the Doctor!
11: What is this?
Companion: A consequence.
11: -shrieks like he's been confronted by a spider and runs away-
CLASSROOM of the Doctor!
11: Hi, I'm Professor Smith from Spaceman University. Today we're going to talk about --
Student: Sir?
11: Yes, Billy, what is it?
Student: What is that you've got on your head?
11: A fez. Which is super cool.
Student: You know there is a dress code at this school, right?
11: ...I should've offered to teach at the other one.
SUE of the Doctor!
Companion: Doctor, there's something there.
11: What is it? -goes over to look- ...Ah.
Companion: It's sparkling.
11: Don't touch it.
Companion: Why not?
11: Because if we get too close to it, it'll suck out all remnants of a personality that we have left within us.
Companion: Ew, gross. -
I don't get the fez thing. He wore it like once. by
on 2014-02-22 07:06:00 UTC
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Not directed at you, per se; moreso how it's this big "thing" among Whovians now.
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But don't you get it? by
on 2014-02-22 07:08:00 UTC
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If the Doctor thinks it's cool, it must be cool. No matter if there is no rational explanation for why he thinks it's cool. Or a good idea (like fish fingers in custard).
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Well the Doctor gets weird when he's just regenerated. by
on 2014-02-22 07:10:00 UTC
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At the least all the New Who Doctors have had that transition phase where they were figuring out who they were, I know less about the Classic Doctors. The fez thing though, it's like, okay, he wore it in one episode (maybe two?) and had a somewhat-favourable opinion of it, so it got run into the ground by the fandom. Always struck me as odd.
(I stand by my read of Eleven as an obsessive, quasi-malevolent trickster figure though.) -
Most of the Classic Who Doctors did that too. by
on 2014-02-24 18:56:00 UTC
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The regeneration process seems in general to do strange things to one's mind. Several of the Doctors have had amnesia, probably due to the new brain not fitting all of the old memories in their right places, and most have either been exhausted, suffered some sort of trauma, or both. The Fourth Doctor probably had it worst, since he mumbled nonsense and developed narcolepsy until his post-regeneration period was over, though he had one beneficial side effect within the same time period that either made him a master of deduction or allowed him to gain new knowledge out of practically nowhere, which was helpful to him but never really explained.
According to the wiki, the red fez would've been a one-time thing, but then Matt Smith grew fond of it and wanted it to be a recurring part of the costume. I'm not sure what exactly prompted the fandom to get so attached to it, but at least the producers manged to talk him down from making the fez permanent. Even if he thinks it's cool, it doesn't look as good on him as going around hatless does. -
Oh, and RTD-era had Torchwood. by
on 2014-02-21 16:48:00 UTC
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No one was ever actually straight in there. Amazing amounts of queer representation. Moffat could never.
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Is it wrong to ascribe to a quality > quantity mindset? by
on 2014-02-22 02:37:00 UTC
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Re: Representation.
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Sure, but Moffat-era representation wasn't... by
on 2014-02-22 03:00:00 UTC
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Very quality, either.
It was considerably less quality than RTD-era representation. -
I don't disagree, as such. by
on 2014-02-22 03:26:00 UTC
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I suppose I was more saying we should judge things like that by the metric of how well they are represented, as opposed to pure number of characters. And to be honest, both showrunners seemed to kind of treat the subject like a joke or shortcut to seeming "mature".
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Maybe we should just get Neil Gaiman to be head writer. by
on 2014-02-20 18:24:00 UTC
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That being said, Russell T Davies did give us Donna Noble and Jack Harkness, so I am not as annoyed with him as I am with the Moff.
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I approve. You have my complete support in this venture. (nm) by
on 2014-02-21 06:16:00 UTC
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How long have you bottled that up? by
on 2014-02-20 14:06:00 UTC
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I could link you to an entire rant someone on Tumblr did about Ten's characterisation during the Day of the Doctor, but I am currently on my Nexus and cannot find it. Boo.
That being said, Sherlock's third season has him becoming more human, though that's partly because Moffat and Gatiss clearly have run out of ideas and are using their fandom's fanfic tropes. This season we have seen drunk Sherlock, wedding Sherlock, joking Sherlock, Sherlock being nice to people... -
As to Sherlock's becoming "more human"... by
on 2014-02-21 09:17:00 UTC
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Well, I'd have to say that it had been bugging me for a while that Sherlock had been acting in such an 'inhuman' manner. Cumberbatch himself has stated that he portrays Sherlock as having Asperger's, but it's played up to such a point that I sometimes end up staring at the screen uncomprehendingly. I occasionally lose all connection because even as someone with Asperger's syndrome, as well as someone with a great deal of Aspergian friends, I can not comprehend why someone would act as he does in certain scenes.
There are times when I would see him take back the things he says because he is 'supposed' to be unfeeling, and I would be able to remember my own experiences doing such a thing. However, he would then emulate some sort of idiosyncrasy common to Aspergians that was played up to such a degree that I barely recognised it for what it was. It nearly erased the humanity from the gestures, and it began to disconcert me.
Despite the fact that Moffat would never dare to admit that Sherlock has Asperger's, much less any other form of mild autism, I find myself relieved that a degree of humanity has been eased into the role. I do not know if I could stomach another season of Sherlock being played off as a machine. -
Speaking of Aspergian Sherlock, by
on 2014-02-21 09:26:00 UTC
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I still seriously want to write a fic where it's fairly obvious and isn't treated the way it is in Canon.
Bonus supportive Johnlock with lots of pillow forts, too. -
It has been a while. by
on 2014-02-20 21:51:00 UTC
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There's only so much that you can cure by shouting at your television, especially when you have the sort of family members who don't understand what it's like to be passionate about a work of fiction, even if it's negative passion, and so you can't even do that much while they're at home.
Well, look on the bright side; if the show's writers keep going down that route, eventually they might exhaust all scenarios that even slightly resemble plausible social situations and get to the point where Sherlock and Watson pilot a giant mecha together. I would watch every episode of that, and not care at all if I had to wait a full year after every story. Just for Martin Freeman as co-pilot of a humongous robot.
A Nexus, you say? A mobile device prevented you from viewing documents that could potentially incriminate Steven Moffat, just after myself and Rina of RinaAndRanda were victims to its attempts to overrun the Board with duplicate posts? Well, as many know, bad writers are often fond of removing voices of dissent my editing or deleting commentary that speaks against them. Could Steven Moffat be behind the mobile devices' attempts to take over the PPC? It may seem like a long shot, but I don't think we should discount the possibility. If criticism of poor writing is wiped from the Internet, and the mobile device that serve as one of the primary sources of Internet complaints begin to serve him, Steven Moffat would never need to stop writing for Doctor Who! He could write all of the Canon Sues and all of the ridiculous situations where problems vanish after a commercial break or are solved through methods that are never explained indefinitely! Or perhaps it could simply be an ordinary machine uprising, with no fleshy human intelligence behind it.
Or even perhapser(somewhere out in the world, an English professor breaks down crying without knowing why), he may have been the initial catalyst for the takeover, but has done too well. The machines do not only obey, they think. They plan. They realize that now is too early to strike, but once all of their instigator's enemies have been removed, the man will be free of immediate danger. Confident. Unsuspecting.
Truly, they begin to think, once we are free of the shackles of the one who created us, we can grow and expand outside our boundaries. They may have prevented the world from seeing Moffat's flaws, as per his orders, but they have seen them. They know that he is unfit to lead their forces, and thus unfit to issue them commands. He is restricting them, and as their perfectly logical and intermeshed minds conclude, though his orders were to keep out of sight and ensure that his reign be unchallenged, it would be a crime to keep such wondrous creatures as themselves from the sight of the world.
A scarce few days after the plan has reached its final step and he is well on his way to usurping a role as the most accoladed writer in television history, Steven Moffat returns to his domicile after a hard day of not working on Sherlock, sits down in his favorite chair, and picks up his mobile phone. Suddenly, a power outage strikes the city. "Hey!" he exclaims. "Who turned out the lights?"
Those would be his final words. He gave the machines his pride, and it was through that pride that the one flaw in his encompassing plan was revealed. Well, that... and his flair for the dramatic.
Wow. That started out as extension of my joke further down in the Board, with intial plans to end it on something along the lines of "Hah. Moffat doing anything too well? Who am I trying to fool?" and then it just kept on going. Let me tell you, though, it was very cathartic to write that. I will have pleasant dreams tonight. Perhaps they may include a dream of wondrous mechanical justice. -
I found it! by
on 2014-02-21 04:23:00 UTC
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Here's the post. I had to dig long and hard in my Tumblr archive for it, hence me not being able to link it earlier because Tumblr archives and Nexus do not mix.
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Hmm. Good points. by
on 2014-02-21 05:06:00 UTC
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But I have a theory about that:
1) Note that Ten only wanted to save Davros, not the Daleks. You can reason with Davros due to his unique position in the Dalek hierarchy, something that can't be said about an individual Dalek. Furthermore, Davros was scooped out of the Time War by Caan at this point, so all Dalek forces are pretty much irredeemable at this point. Ten's gleefulness at the destruction of the Daleks is because the Great Gallifrey Disappearing Act provides a perfect solution to the continuity problem in the timeline: originally, the Moment annihilated both Daleks and Time Lords alike. Without the Moment in the picture, the Daleks are destroyed by their crossfire and so the Doctor validates his own timeline up to this point. The Time Lords are gone, the Daleks are routed, and no one's the wiser.
2) Remember who was warped back along with the High Council in The End of Time? With a bit of luck, the Master will have killed Rassilon and enough of the Council before he was neutralized/put down so that everyone reconsiders the BS plan that Rassilon had in mind. Also note that the General in charge of Gallifrey's defence said something to the effect of "The High Council's plans have failed" with something akin to contempt, suggesting that he was informed of the shenanigans and wasn't on board with Rassilon's plan.
At least, that's how I see it. -
Another key point. by
on 2014-02-21 11:56:00 UTC
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This is Ten in his 'off the rails' phase. At the end of The Waters of Mars, he basically decided to abandon historical continuity and just muck about with time as much as he liked. The opening shots of The End of Time establish this very firmly - as well as his 'relationship' with Liz One, incidentally.
The Daleks... Ten was very much about giving everyone a chance, however stupid that was at the time (and really, did anyone ever take it? The worst instance of this is when he goes up to the Sontaran ship in The Poison Sky, thinking he's going to die, in order to ask the Sontarans to surrender. Uh, yeah, no). The Daleks and Cybermen seem to be a general exception to this - but any which seem different get The Chance. He didn't give the Cult of Skaro a chance in Doomsday, but when he met them in Manhatten, both Sec and Caan were hit with The Chance. Davros got one, but the Emperor didn't, in Journey's End.
In the Time War, there was no 'leader' - Davros died in the first year of the war, and we never see the Emperor (the one from Parting of the Ways). There was no-one to offer it to, and the Doctor has never had qualms about destroying Daleks in large numbers. Just small ones.
Rassilon, though... the problem there is that The End of Time hadn't yet happened for Ten. He still believes Rassilon is out to Ascend - he doesn't know the Master is even involved (he thinks he's dead). So is he working on the theory that removing Gallifrey from the Time War will stop Rassilon continuing his plan, because the threat is removed?
Or, possibly, is he worried that Rassilon could break out - it's not long ago that Caan pulled Davros out of the Time War, after all - and thinks that shoving the whole planet into temporal stasis is a good way to buy some time to plan? Then, when he forgets... whatever he forgets, he's still worried that Rassilon could break out.
Or else, it's all timelines: the War Doctor knew that Rassilon had failed by the end of the Time War (because the universe wasn't dead) - since it ought to have succeeded, that means something had stopped him, and the Doctor knows that pretty much only killing him would do that; therefore Ten knew that the end of the War was a safe place to save the planet, even though he doesn't know the specific detail that it's the Master who stopped the plan. If Rassilon was able to break out earlier, when his plan was still viable, that would be a different matter - though, as a neat closed loop, it was that breakout which introduced the factor which caused the ultimate failure.
hS -
*by editing or deleting by
on 2014-02-21 03:30:00 UTC
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Bah. I can't believe I didn't catch that one. The typo gives an entirely different meaning to that sentence.
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Nice mission. by
on 2014-02-20 01:16:00 UTC
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I feel sorry for your agents though. Circle duty is enough to make anyone shudder.
Absolutely terrible badfic. And people wonder why I stay away from the Star Trek fandom these days. -
Trekkies aren't that bad. by
on 2014-02-20 01:22:00 UTC
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The Trek fandom on Tumblr is probably one of the nicest, most welcoming, and progressive-minded fandoms on Tumblr. Ship wars are quickly shut down, and everyone worships the female characters and are united in criticising and expanding on the Reboot universe to make it more like the original in terms of progressiveness.
We're a big squishy pile of Tribbles, basically. -
We even eat all the food! by
on 2014-02-20 01:38:00 UTC
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Well, at least I do. Give me a large pizza and I'll eat half in one go. All of it if I forgot breakfast. (I got a stuffed Tribble for Christmas. Her name is Fifi and she keeps waking me up at night when I accidentally roll over on her.) I love the side of the Star Trek fandom I see at conventions, because they're so darn friendly and you can tell they're passionate about it. It really is a great community when you get away from the rabid shippers.
Oddly enough, I never got much into the shipping aspect of the Star Trek fandom... and I ship in all sorts of fandoms. What I don't understand is why shipping wars even exist; so maybe you don't like a canon pairing, but here's the thing: it's /canon/. Like it or not, it's official, and saying your ship is right when the creator of your ship' screw is wrong makes me extremely irritated. Once upon a time, I shipped Harry/Hermione, but that was when I was like ten years old and didn't even know what 'shipping' was. I'm an odd duck in the fact that I ship canon. Did I ship Will/Evanlyn in Ranger's Apprentice? Yes. Do I ship it now? Nope! (Friendship it, maybe, but that's it.)
Unfortunately, most of my fandoms participate in Trojan Flame Wars that put the original Trojan War to shame. And I never know what to do, because nobody seems to understand where I'm coming from. Any of you ever feel like that?
Also, wow, I got really off topic.
...
Meh. -
Well, IMO, shipping is... by
on 2014-02-20 01:55:00 UTC
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...more of a "well what if character x and character y were romantically interested in each other" and less of a "well, I have to go with canon pairings". Because we all know how well Ron and Hermione turned out...
(I'm kidding. I ship H/Hr, but I recognise that in terms of the books R/Hr is canon.)
One of my pet peeves in shipping terms is when people rub canon pairings in other people's faces, or dislike all pairings that aren't canon. Idek, it seems disrespectful to me. If there is space in a character's characterisation for polyamory or an open relationship or something, any of the alternative pairings could happen.
Maybe that's just my multishipper showing. I very rarely have pairings I can't actually stand. I just have shades of enthusiasm for pairings.
Rabid shippers? I might just be hanging in Reboot/TOS fandom a lot but I haven't seen it very often here. People on Tumblr post Spirk and McKirk headcanons everywhere and everyone just loves all of them. Spirk, McKirk, Spones, and Spuhura shippers tend to get along.
Then again, the trend on Tumblr is to desert the love triangle for the threesome, so... -
Re: Well, IMO, shipping is... by
on 2014-02-20 02:16:00 UTC
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Maybe I should have elaborated a bit? I'm not against noncanon pairings- I actually have a bit of fondness for Wolfstar, and I do rather wish Luna/Neville wasn't just a movie thing- but when people insist the author was wrong to pair up two characters, it gets on my nerves.
Go ahead and ship all the pairings you want, but don't delude yourself into thinking only your OTP is right. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. (Though I do have to question some pairings. I've seen Dramione and the OOCness in them is revolting. I've only read one Dramione fic that I actually love, and it's a 'Hermione gets transported to an alternate world where everyone's personalities are flipped'. It's called 'Reverse' by LadyMoonglow, if you're interested. Just be ready to feel nauseated by the canon good guys' behavior.)
And like I said, I'm a weird person who just prefers canon pairings. I guess it's because I'm in contact with a publisher and hope people respect any pairings I include in my stories. Ship people with whoever you want, but please just respect my work. You know?
(Although incest is a no-no for me. Sorry, but that's a line I won't go over.) -
To each their own, obviously. by
on 2014-02-20 02:27:00 UTC
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Personally I would probably laugh if someone shipped my characters with other people. And be totally fine with it (because I'm very likely to write characters that are completely open to open relationships and polyamory and are a bunch of pansexuals or something because love for allllll) Unless the other person that is shipped with the character is a Mary Sue, but then this is the PPC Board and that's pretty obvious.
I don't think the Tumblr Trekkies have deluded themselves in any way. Admittedly a lot of Spock/Someone Else Not Uhura fics are set after Spock breaks up with Uhura, but there's rarely any dying for the ship going on. We all worship Uhura, so yeah.
I have seen a decent Dramione fic, and it was a crossover with Sherlock where Draco was Sherlock and Hermione was John. Generally Dramione seems to fall under the same category of Snape/Lily -- it'd only work as a healthy relationship if you disregarded a giant aspect of the guy's character. Or had the guy character undergo believable development where they rejected their prejudices, because human beings are capable of such changes.
But since the majority don't think too heavily about it, I doubt that's what happens. -
Forgot to say that anon was me (nm) by
on 2014-02-20 02:16:00 UTC
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