Subject: Well...
Author:
Posted on: 2015-06-27 22:05:00 UTC
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
The Supreme Court ruled, 5-4, to legalize gay marriage nationwide! About tine! *throws cakefetti*
This is breaking the rules left and right. We're not allowed to argue about religion, according to the PPC Board Rules. So, I suggest we stop and leave our views with ourselves.
When I first came around here, ten years ago, we had debates like this with some frequency - they got heated from time to time, but things were pretty respectful on all sides. Then, maybe five years or so back, we had a lot of arguments where people got really ticked really quickly and things got out of hand - those put a dent on everyone's desire to talk.
But this has been well within rules and respect, and I'm really psyched to see everyone being so ...good to each other, for lack of a better phrase.
Section 1, Article 4: "We encourage respectful, friendly debates here. Someone disagreeing your opinion is generally not an attack on you, and should not be taken personally. Should a debate escalate into personal attacks, flaming, or any form of disrespectful conduct for any reason, everyone involved should step back and clam down before continuing. If this cannot be done, it may be best to abandon the conversation entirely."
Since this debate has not escalated into any of these things, we're allowed to continue debating.
Unlike everyone else, I'm not thrilled. To be honest, I'm horrified that this happened. But I'll leave it at that.
...mais passez-moi ce maïs soufflé, s'il-vous-plaît.
זה באמת לא מנומס במיוחד.
J'vais me la fermer maintenant.
/is yanked offstage by the Shepherd's Crook of Too Many Languages, which was probably stolen from Iximaz/
Esh, you're the exception rather than the rule. I don't know French and — as far as I'm aware — neither SeaTurtle nor domirossi know Hebrew.
Yes, it is for religious reasons, and yes, I understand that there is divisions among Christians on this issue. But I view same-sex marriage as wrong, believing that marriage should be between man and woman only as Biblically ordained. I'm not saying I'm going to hate and despise homosexuals. I will still love them as Jesus commands, just not agree with them.
To put this succinctly without saying what I think is wrong with religion (because a) that's a can of worms I don't want to open, b) it'll take a lot of time and c) nothing good will come out of it), you've a right to believe whatever you want. You don't have a right to force that belief on others any more than others have a right to force their beliefs on you. Therefore, you can think it's wrong if that's what you believe, you can hate gays if that's what gives you your kicks, but you cannot prevent them from marrying. Think about it this way: what would you do if the boot was on the other foot, so to speak, and it was religious marriage that the SCOTUS ruled to legalise after years of discrimination, and someone would have said they're horrified?
I promise. I'm just stating my view and defending it. You have nothing to worry about.
You said it yourself - arguing about social progressivism with the religious right is like arguing about quantum physics with a yak. The other party doesn't understand it and will simply wander off to do exactly what it did before.
I'm not trying to argue progressivism, social or otherwise, with anybody. That's your cup of tea, not mine. What I'm trying to do is to fathom some of Silenthunder's thought processes via the prism of hard questions.
Ie., the son of David who thought the rape of his sister was wrong was punished, not the one who committed it.
was killed too. Absalom was punished because he tried to usurp the throne of God's chosen king. That isn't to say that his complaints weren't valid-- another of David's sins was that he didn't control or discipline his children as he should have. If David had followed God's commandments in the first place, the entire tragedy wouldn't have occurred.
Most current translations have him repeatedly talk about homosexuality as a sin, but some argue that it might have been about paedophilia or more generic sexual perversion.
I'm personally not convinced, and think he was indeed talking about homosexuality in at least some parts of his writing. But then again, I also think he was a con artist who ruined Christianity. I mean, everyone has their own opinions.
Meanwhile, some argue that, according to the Gospels, Jesus approved a homosexual relationship.
I mean, people must only use "Judaeo-Christian" to refer to the two belief systems to annoy you, right? They're like chalk and cheese, if cheese was made of a slightly different colour of chalk.
A lot of people from both religions would have you believe that they have nothing to do with each other.
As someone who's both, I can say that nope, they're both just my neurology! My brain doesn't understand what people see in guys at all (no, not yuck, just... meh) any more than it can decide not to have sensory problems.
So, hi, fellow autist! :D
So I understand completely. I went through the Holocaust Museum in Washington, DC. I would have died in WW2 as well, since I was born early = disabled. Also, look to my argument where God teaches people in stages. It takes a long time for people to change traditions, and God is patient enough, knowing we're His stubborn kids. Just because I'm a Christian does not mean I'm using the "holier-than-thou" standing. We sin even after becoming Christians, and it's better to acknowledge that and learn from the past.
Pretty sure a small minority of Christians - and I mean very small - think LGBTQ people should be exterminated.
Most subscribe to conversion therapy instead. Which, y'know, degrees of terrible, but that IS a distinction that must be made.
Most Christians I know take a live and let live approach.
I should say, "most Christians who believe non-heterosexual sex is a sin" go for conversion therapy, not extermination. But not even they are in the majority.
Also, "Christian" and "queer person" are hardly mutually exclusive terms.
I also know that it involves rape as an attempt to "cure" them, which is just as bad.
Christian-established institutions that use one of the most horrifying things one human can do to another, and they think it's the right thing to do.
THAT is why I hate people who treat homosexuals as aberrations. They often become monsters themselves.
Yes, a rigorous academic regime, an accepting community, a desire to help others, and raising millions of dollars to help find a cure for diseases like Cystic Fibrosis is horrifying.
I misread your statement. I thought you were referring to Christian Institutions as a whole. Not the specific ones.
I thought you were saying that Christian institutions were one of the most horrifying things. When I first read your comment I did not see the "that use" section of it.
I just... like I've said, prejudice REALLY makes me angry. Just the knowledge that there are people that downright monstrous just completely ticks me off.
I really do need to learn when to shut off the valve when it comes to my emotions...
Why do you specifically disapprove?
Was there such thing as marriage before the Christian Church? I would say that it clearly was. Lets look at Rome or Japan or any other civilization before Christianity. There was still marriage, again predominately for political, economic, and other very secular means.
Or put another way, is a non-Christian Marriage a marriage? And if it is, why should the religious (mind you a Christian Definition) apply? What makes it any more valid than say the Hopi Definition or any other Native Group? Or over say the Hindi Definition or some other definition from any other Non-Christian Group?
This thread will be dropping off of the front page soon, but you raise an interesting argument that I don't want to leave as the last word. If you don't mind giving me your e-mail address, I'll gladly continue this conversation by e-mail. Also, could you please point me to some of the cultures that you are talking about in your post?
As for my email address, it's sonofheaven176ATgmailDOTcom (of course, substituting the words with the appropriate punctuation marks).
Because frankly, I am tired of discussing it. Maya, Aztec, Olmec, Inca, and Illiniwek, all have some variation of it. I am also certain the Iroquois and Cherokee nations had some similar belief, though I am not certain. Of course, orientation is more of a Western Construct anyways. But as I said, this is the last I am saying about this.
The fact that multiple Biblical figures had upwards of a dozen spouses and concubines is, of course, completely immaterial.
When something is wrong, it takes God a long time to teach people different. So He taught in stages. King Solomon having many wives was a bad idea. God told him so. That's in the Bible, the book of Second Samuel specifically. but I'd suggest asking a more experienced person.
Hey, should we stop now? No religious wars, remember.
You, uh... you do know that blips in our DNA is what drives evolution forward, right? That's how we managed to go from the early humans (say, homo erectus) to modern-day humans (homo sapiens).
If the genetic code was "error free", then that would kill the evolutionary process.
If God created the world and the things on it (as I believe, and Silenthunder, as far as I know) then evolution is false.
Take this for example. About half way down the page. Pope Francis says the creation and evolution are not mutually exclusive.
"Eppur si muove." ~ (probably not) Galileo Galilei
hS
I think I will. I want to study the topic as a whole.
I don't think I'll say much more about it on here; I'm not well-versed enough in the proper defenses to be... much of anything, really. However, I will say that I am not a Catholic. The Pope can claim whatever he likes, but I don't have to believe him.
And thanks, again. I'm planning on doing quite a bit of reading in the future.
And his causal theory. Which can actually go back even further to Aristotle's Unmoved Mover.
but I don't think it's true. I mean, I could argue evolution until the cows come home, honestly. But Genesis tells what God did, and (with the exception of Revelations) it's fairly clear when the Bible is being literal and when it's using figurative language. The Genesis account is meant to be literal, to the extent of my knowledge, and the knowledge of many heads much wiser than mine.
Doesn't Genesis contain two separate creation accounts? Both are at least partially inconsistent? Also keep in mind, from a religious standpoint, Pope Francis is the head of Roman Catholic Church.
But then going on to the actual science part of it, as SeaTurtle below points out, there is a huge amount of scientific evidence that supports evolution.
There is overwhelming proof of the mechanism behind evolution and it's prominently featured in natural history museums all over the world. Scientists have rigouroulsly fact-checked each other's work and made sure that they're publishing the most accurate information possible. Why is only one 2000+ year old book all the evidence you need to discredit volumes upon volumes of data collected using the cutting edge of technology?
Speaking of which, who peer reviewed the Bible?
Stopping now? I've been in a lot of similar debates, and they never get anywhere. The religious person basically says, "God wrote the Bible and He cannot err, therefore what the Bible says is fact", and arguing with such an argument is pointless; it's a disagreement about postulates, not anything you can apply logic and/or reason to.
Like I said, till the cows come home. I think logic can be applied, but at the end of the day, you can't scientifically prove either position. Scientists can't recreate evolution any more than they can recreate creation.
Click the picture to learn a thing!
Oh man, that is fascinating! I see that article is from 2008. I'mma go find more information about what's happened since. Starting on Wikipedia, apparently.
~Neshomeh
*wipes away tears* When will people learn the fastest way to get attention to something is to raise a big stink over it?
I mean, it is true. I'm not gonna give in.
And, um, I've read the Bible, and I haven't noticed two of anything. With the rest, it has been proven to be sound. Translation, yeah, it can get a little rough, but we can thank dynamic equivalence for that. Sorta. Like I said, I'm no Bible scholar.
That's why I said so. That's why I didn't want to do this in the first place. I shouldn't have kept commenting-- I should have stopped. I don't have enough restraint.
The 'arguing religion with religious people is a waste of time' conclusion is nothing new to me but I still continue to do so. Oh, well. Everybody has their faults, I'd guess.
PS: — gives you a —.
Thankee. Hey, we're still friends though, right?
I must admit that I am more than slightly pissed off right now — religion is one of my Buttons — but that'll pass in due time and I'm not the sort of person to keep grudges, so yeah, I guess so.
Want to see a funny video involving Muskippers? Yes, yes you do. Here you are:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljv1fO4qrIw
I imagined opera.
I am now imagining the two mudskippers performing the Pearl Fishers' duet.
It is pleasant.
Saying that evolution was disproved in a court of law, specifically an American one, is a) Americanocentric and b) completely irrelevant, because whether evolution is right or not is not a legal question. It's a scientific or philosophical one.
I'd been told differently. I apologize. Really, though, I don't want to debate evolution. I don't. It won't get anyone anywhere.
The Scopes Trial was just a mess. It was specifically designed to challenge the law, in the trial court it was just spectacle, no real law was going on. When it finally found its way to the State Supreme Court, they found out that there was a small error in the process, they overruled the lower court, dismissed the case and basically said never speak of this again.
is that the source I got it from ought to have been reliable, and was not. Anyway, thanks for setting the record straight. We're still friends, right?
Don't blindly believe everything people tell you; check it.
The entire Scopes Trial was basically a sham. And also by the end of it the Tennessee State Supreme Court basically said, "Let us never speak of this again". Epperson remains the actual law on the issue.
'cause, you know, he's in law. Um, also, I have proven myself to have very little restraint, but really, I'd prefer to not debate evolution.
On Neanderthal there is some dispute over if they are properly classified as H. neanderthalensis or H. sapiens neaderthalensis. I stated the minority position. The majority position is that they were a closely related hominid to humans, that shared a recent common ancestor.
If you really want to debate the reliability of the Scriptures, I'd like to do it off of the Board.
...until Canada Day, so my access to the Internet is a little spotty at the moment.
On the other hand, I do want to discuss this a little further. This is very interesting! Please feel free to tag me via email or something when you're ready.
Please help me understand your position. What makes you say that?
Then a heaven where that love is forbidden is not for me.
Someone can still be opposed to the decision without it being because of religious reasons or homophobia. For example they could be opposed on Federalism Grounds. Which is a fair stance to have. One could also have trouble with this decision on Separation of Powers Grounds as well. It is essentially the Court Legislating, which they are not supposed to do (though they've been doing it since 1791).
But one can still be opposed to the decision without it being for hateful reasons.
At least not in my perspective. I have seen cases where I have liked the result, but he legal reasoning was so bad, that I would have rather the Court come out the other way. Would I use "horrified" to describe it, probably not, but others might.
Though now that I think about it, I agree with a lot of the Court's Establishment Clause Decisions, but I am horrified by the legal reasoning behind it. So...actually it could be, it depends on how bad one thinks the reasoning is.
but I made three points, and you've only replied to one. I would like to know what your thoughts are on the other two.
Because that was so out of line of SOH that it's not even marching band anymore, it's just playing a tuba on the moon.
*offers Bleepolate*
"Gender" is mental, "sex" is physical.
People can have a biological sex that doesn't match their mental gender identity. That's what a transgender person is: Someone who is physically one sex, but mentally another gender.
I don't make claims to understand it all fully. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but, for instance, I think genderfluid means someone who can mentally identify as male or female at different times, or as neither.
What is it, exactly, to be "male"? I mean, I know I identify as a cisgender heterosexual male, but while the first two words in that descriptor are pretty clear to me, the last isn't. Does it mean that I desire girls? If so, lesbians and bisexuals are males, too, and I don't that is the case. Does it mean I do male-ish things? What are those? What does that say about tomboy-ish girls?
So, yeah, now I'm confused.
Gender is hard.
Gender isn't binary, and gender doesn't conform to stereotypes, and gender is... basically what you make of it. Binary genders are necessarily reductive, and are assigned at birth. I think, at heart, it's something you have to figure out for yourself.
I can't tell you how to be you; I can only tell you how I'm me. =]
But the right not to be discriminated against is much more important than your right to discriminate against someone on a religious basis.
In all such matters you must ask yourself "what would I do if the boot was on the other foot?" which, in this case, means "would I be horrified if SCOTUS decided to finally legalise religious marriage after years of discrimination against religious people?"
Because, frankly, if you don't want to be discriminated against when you're the minority, you mustn't discriminate against other groups that are now minorities; otherwise, you're a selfish hypocrite and no more.
I'm also kind of amazed that SOH considers legal protection from discrimination to be "forced acceptance" like Christian demagogues in Europe and the US haven't been forcing everyone to accept their own religious beliefs under threat of hellfire and damnation.
First off: Thank you. Finally, a clear answer. I did not know that "intersex" was the proper term, or that the issue was so personal to you. Which leads to the second part:
I'm sorry that I've hit at such a sore spot.
I honestly did not know that it was a sore spot: I thought that you were just being unclear in some kind of an attempt to put the spotlight on homosexuality without any reference to the person that I am talking to. I acted in ignorance, and I apologize.
I think it's fairly clear to anyone reading my entries on this thread, but I'll go ahead and put this here.
that there's something wrong with religion being connected to state. Why would you say that?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
The interpretation of those words has been a mess. Particularly with establishment and free exercise, the Court has been inconsistent with what they mean.
Lemon is the test, but when it gets applied you get things like, prayer at the start of a public school day violates the establishment clause, but prayer before a legislative session does not.
it's interesting you bring that up. As long as what they ask doesn't directly contradict Scripture, then I'm to obey. I'd go to the lion's den. Whatever the penalty was for not performing the sacrifice, I'd suffer it. No law in the Bible says I can't not prepare food on Saturday. As for the last one, they'd probably just kill me, or force me to pay extortion money.
But, in regards to America, the Founding Fathers were all either Christian or had a deep respect for Christianity, and intended America to be a Christian nation. Free enterprise and Christianity together makes a rich, happy, and giving society. As long as the Christians are doing what they should, that is.
I apologize for my mistake, though. Thank you!
... the Quran.
Yep, the Founding Fathers were fans of Islam.
Look up the Treaty of Tripoli when you've got a spare minute. That puts a little of the modern panic about Those Scary Muslims into perspective. =]
"I am using the concept of judicial overreach to cover for my own prejudices and trying to reframe the conversation from one about the dismantling of the engines of systematic hate to one about rather dry legal quibbles."
If you seriously have a problem with the most powerful branch of the judiciary having and using power, I can't bloody help you. =]
I think what EAUO means is "the same result could have been achieved in a better way, one that is more consistent".
Isn't that where this thread started? ^_^
hS
Which is why I said it wasn't even a question. =]
The main basis of the Constitution was not religious at all. What the framers did not create from on their own was influenced by Locke, Hobbes, Edward Coke, William Blackstone, and Montesquieu.
That oppression is morally wrong. What would lead you to say that?
Oppression of any sort is wrong. I don't believe in not hurting people because some divine being says it's wrong. I don't hurt them because you don't hurt people.
But why is it wrong? It's not just wrong because it's wrong; there has to be a reason. That's what I'm trying to get at it.
I truly am. So I forgive you for your opening comment, and I ask for you to forgive me too.
And while I stand by the thought process behind my opening assault, it could and should have been worded better. I apologise.
"Nonbinary," especially. I had a sort of dim idea as to what several of the terms used were, but I wasn't certain at all.
Yeah, I'm still working on not offending people. The surly conservative within me who likes to jump on nearby objects and scream "FREE SPEEEEECH!!" just 'cause she can doesn't help matters. I'll check out that gender portal thing-- knowledge is power, after all. Power corrupts. Study hard, be evil. >:) Mwahaha.
Tone it down, please.
*indicates PPC Constitution*
Did you actually read my post? There's nothing to tone down, aside from my attacking the concept of societal inequality. Unless you mean the title, which was derogatory, but only because Alleb's use of rhetoric struck me as a bit on the specious side.
And of all the responses being given to Alleb, with or without the title, yours was indeed the most heated for little reason- you jumped in where you had not been prior with wording and phrasing that is intended to smack down.
We don't need to actively turn this into a pile-on.
I wasn't here for it. I was in an arcade trying to stop screeching children and the dot-eyed incompetents that spawned them from smashing irreplaceable glassware for the entire afternoon and evening. I know it's not quite military service, but nobody expects you mob to smile while you shoot people.
And just so you know? The people who were my tormentors were Christian. So I don't believe religion is any kind of morality chain.
But basically, I don't ever want another person to hurt the way I was hurt. That is why I try to be kind. That is why I try to do the right thing. Because nobody deserves that kind of pain.
It's kind of funny that you'd make that last remark, though, because it always feels like the opposite to me. That's probably just because I need to learn more about law though.
Anyway, I don't know if you saw (I should have placed it here, rather than in my response to hS) I rescinded my question. Your response, however, is frankly awesome. Thank you.
The law can be incredibly squishy too depending on the field.
Because... it's morally wrong to harm people, and oppression does so? Bwah?
...if a moral system does not see oppression as morally wrong, I do not see how it could be called moral.
Who says it's morally wrong to hurt people? I believe it is wrong because God says so.
Since you asked before I posted my answer to hS, I think it'll be okay to reply to this...
And it's kinda *really creepy* when someone tells me that they only find hurting people wrong because an ethereal being says so. Uh, good to know, I guess? O_o
I can't change your mind on that, and I won't try. However, I will say that the "ethereal being" isn't ethereal at all. Ethereal means "Too delicate and light in a way that seems too perfect for this world." God is perfect, but He is anything but delicate. I will also say that, yeah, I have a conscience, and it tells me that it's wrong when people get hurt. Conscience comes from God; that's the law written on the heart.
I have already told you it is disrespectful (and kinda creepy) to evangelize at me. Do you want a detailed run-down of *my* spiritual beliefs? How about I talk about the ghost cats in my house! I could do that too! >:(
I would super love to hear that story!
I honestly apologize, I really wasn't trying to. Evangelize means to try and convert you, and I wasn't. So, um... I'm sorry.
And when someone starts talking about their God as if their interpretation of Xir is the only reasonable one and insisting on God-as-morality, I don't see what else that can be. Sorry if I'm a bit snappish, but... I can't really discuss this if you insist that there is no secular morality. :/
It's fine, religion makes everyone touchy. ^_^
Debating in general also makes me very stressed, and when I'm stressed, I don't think about others.
That's the sort of question which really feels like you're trolling. If you are, I'd really advise you to stop. If you're not, then explaining your position rather than just throwing questions like that at people is a good idea.
In other words: are you taking the position that oppression is not morally wrong? What would lead you to say that?
hS
But my base is on law not morality. As I say above, morality is too squishy.
...is seeing people as people, basically entitled to the same freedoms as you have unless they show they would use them to remove the agency of others.
Religion does that, in some ways. But we *do not want* you to evangelize at us. It's disrespectful in many ways. Please don't.
The basis of the Christian morality is God, the basis of the Muslim morality is Allah, or the Old Testament God.
I'm saying that whatever you believe gives people morality, the core of it is the personness of others. I'm not saying that "oh no, there is no God to give morality" but that it's always empathy, no matter what. One cannot be a moral person while denying that others are as person as you are, and that doesn't change with belief or deity.
Yeah, you're right, I didn't get it. I apologize! I see what you mean now, and, honestly, I agree. At the center of my morality is love, and that's its whole cause and end. And you worded it very well.
because he was divinely inspired. But that is a can of worms that's caused a lot of argument, and I'd really like to leave it untouched.
Well, yeah. That's it, really; love God with everything you have, and love people because you love God. I believe the Ten Commandments are also binding, but they follow logically. Why steal from someone when you're supposed to be loving them?
On the whole, I think you and I are in accord. *shrugs* That was why I asked what July thought.
Since it will be quite long, I ask patience while I type up the reply.
okay, but I really wanted to know why July thought that. But it's fine.
It's your prejudice to have, I guess, but don't expect everyone else not to cheer for progress.
Unless you mean that it'll encourage bad slash? ;)
Continue your work to drag the United States kicking and screaming into the present. =]
Now sort out your bloody healthcare system so it isn't predicated on letting poor people die slow and horrible deaths.
May it be that we will have something like that here - not to mention secular marriage.
Finally, they managed to agree on something. Has anyone spotted the flying pigs yet? I'm pretty sure I saw one earlier.
It was a 5-4 decision, so the Court did not fully agree. A slim majority won out, like most of the other large decisions recently. I am concerned that it was not a 6-3 decision. 5-4 makes it very easy to attack. I see no reason why it would be overturned, but it may well be very similar to Roe v. Wade, highly unlikely to be overturned, but far from immune from attack.
...but we've come so, so far. Drop the Bleepka -- this is a day to *remember.*
One big step forward for equality. I hope that other countries around the world follow suit.
It was the first news story I saw when I woke up today. I think I might have teared up a little when I read Anthony Kennedy's decision. The wording was definitely not your typical legal fare.
I'm glad to know that my future will not be unduly restricted based on my partner's gender or sexual identity. It's by no means the end of the road regarding LGBT equality, to be sure, but it's a much-needed step.
PC
Now for Australia to stop dragging our sorry butts and achieve marriage equality here.
Elcalion, wishing his country wasn't so darned backwards sometimes
*punches the air* About time!
Hopefully I'll be able to read a real article about it soon.
That said, this is fantastic news.
What scares me a little, though, is that the vote was SO CLOSE to a draw... I mean, it was 5-4. Just one vote's difference from a country which would handle LBGT rights a little, uh... okay, a LOT worse.
As it is, though, this is an amazing step forward! Great job, America! :D
I'm very happy for you people, and I hope the anti-gay marriage crowd won't get as huge/bad as it did in France. (Well, I kinda doubt it, but hey, one can hope.)
There are going to be weddings. Weddings everywhere. You won't be able to swing a cat without hitting giddy newlyweds!
Although it does not apply to me, I'm happy for you guys out there (or here, doesn't matter).
Also - SUCK IT, TEXAS! :D
I don't feel comfortable seeing one of the dumbest moments of my life here on the Board still present. Is there a way for this to disappear?
If it makes you feel better, at the rate the Board's moving, it'll be off the front page in two days or so.
hS
I'm sorry. Honestly. To be fair, I have no idea why Texas was the first thing that popped into my mind.
I admit, it was a stereotypical and wrong way of thinking, and (as with many things in the past) I typed something, without thinking.
No need to insult a State, especially considering (regardless of your opinions on some/all of its policies) it is one of the most important States in the US. Seeing as it is the 14 Largest Economy World Wide with GDP. As of 2012 it was comparable to Spain's entire National Economy.
OTOH, I don't think economic importance is a valid reason not to insult something. I'm sure people more up on their history than I am can easily trot out a dozen examples of bodies with a huge economic impact that definitely deserve to be insulted.
Say rather that there are plenty of Texans who DO support civil rights, such as our most excellent JulyFlame, and there's no call to tar them all with one brush.
~Neshomeh
My point was that it was deserving of some degree of respect. It was also the first thing that came to mind.
So roughly half of my relatives, all of whom are celebrating the new ruling.
Made me hurt myself double with my own joke... I guess, when it comes to the Board, I need to reduce my humour borders immensly.
Anyway, let's pretend my comment never was posted. Moving on!
We're one step closer to being a civilized nation!
Rainbow wedding cake for everyone!!
Several friends who've recently gotten married in my state have been cheerfully celebrating the fact they are now legal in the rest of the country as well. I'm pretty psyched. :D
I was heartened when I heard they ruled to uphold Obamacare subsidies, and I'm pleased not to be disappointed. Yay for civil rights!
~Neshomeh
Though I'm surprised it isn't by popular vote, like how Ireland did it but I guess things work differently in America.
Anyway, now to sit back and observe the religious fanatics get all up in arms about it.
I am plenty religious, and many of us religious types are just as happy about it as the non-religious people are. Just saying. :)
Perhaps I should have added in the 'crazy' as well. Sorry if I offended you.
Provided this does not require churches to officiate same-sex marriage ceremonies, which if it does then there is a real big First Amendment Issue, I think the only real opposition this is going to get is going to be from groups like the Westboro Baptist Church.
Most religious people I know are going to be fine with this ruling provided it does not force them to officiate the marriages. And even then a fair few would not really care.
I think some (perhaps many) will be against the ruling, but I don't know if anyone will actually do anything. Eventually, it's quite probable that such officiatons will be forced upon them, following in the footsteps of private businesses. In fact, some churches that host weddings have already been forced to either accommodate same-sex weddings or stop offering their building to the public. All of this, of course, is unconstitutional-- we do not have a right to goods and services.
Right. I didn't think about that angle. :(
In some faiths, finding someone willing to conduct a wedding might take some looking.
Maybe the Pope will make a statement and encourage people not to exclude same-sex couples from the sacrament of marriage... is that asking too much? It would be awfully nice if he did.
With Catholicism, the sacrament of marriage is still defined as being between one man and one woman. It's very unlikely that that will change any time in the near (or not so near) future, especially since we don't yet have any women priests and even that is unlikely to change anytime soon.
It has, in fact, been the opposite. Even churches who do allow same-sex marriages have not been able to perform them in states where they are not legally recognized.
but I wouldn't say it's an impossibility. I certainly hope it won't happen, though.
On my statement, you're right, I was over-board. I think of things in strict construction, and, come to think of it, I really need to do some research on rights and how they've been expanded or limited.
I was mostly thinking of the infamous wedding cake affair-thingy-deal. Forcing a bakery to pay a fine because they won't bake a cake is, to the extent of my knowledge, unconstitutional.
at the moment, it is unconstitutional to force a bakery to make a cake for a same-sex wedding.
Yeah, I really need to hone my knowledge on this... What I should have said is, "I think that forcing someone to bake a cake should be unconstitutional." I'd attempt an argument for strict construction, but as I have (more than thoroughly) shown, government is not my forte. *sheepishly rubs neck* Thanks for setting me straight.
that Freedom of Association doesn't apply to businesses? If I work hard, save money, and build myself a shop, why do I suddenly lose my rights?
It's not a clear-cut and simple matter - of course, it never is. Personally, I'm hoping Citizen's United gets turned over eventually, I found that case to be horrifying for many reasons.
So - out of curiosity, are you a constitutional lawyer, or a legal historian?
your knowledge of the government, laws, and how they work is awesome. I really need to increase my own understanding of it.
No offense taken. It was really more of a pre-emptive statement; making sure to note that the allies in the religious community are, well, still allies. :)
Since I know it's going to come up over there: how overturnable is this? Presumably the Supreme Court is allowed to overrule itself (though I'd assume that won't happen until they get a change of membership), but is anyone else able to do that?
hS, legally curious (and hoping for a 'no')
I think it takes a constitutional amendment or something like that--like with civil rights, where when we declared that black people were equal with white people it overturned a bunch of court rulings.
The point is to make sure that the Supreme Court can't have the last word, to balance the power between legislative, executive, and judicial branches. They can all override each other. But it would take an override at the highest level.
Happy with that.
:)
