J'vais me la fermer maintenant.

Would you also defend an inverted position (like I've described in my previous post)?

-If you don't, you imply that discriminating against gays is OK, but discriminating against religious people isn't, and that's a) selfish, b) hypocritical and c) silly, because it basically says "discrimination is OK as long as it is not against me or my group".

-If you do, there's little reason for you to be horrified specifically by gay marriage; rather, it means you're horrified by discriminated groups being a bit less discriminated against, and that's... I don't even know what to call that.

Ie., the son of David who thought the rape of his sister was wrong was punished, not the one who committed it.

... so I'm relying on others scholarship here rather than my own, but if I recall correctly, the particular words that Paul uses in his various lists of sins are used nowhere else in the Bible and are not the 'usual' words used at the time to describe men having sex with men. (I deliberately don't use the term 'homosexuality' because it's really a modern-ish concept of orientation as opposed to behaviour).

One possible interpretation of them is as a catch-all reference to all same-sex behavior, however it's also possible that the reference is to more specific situations. Because of the unusual choice of language and lack of context elsewhere, it's hard to say what he intended.

I mean, people must only use "Judaeo-Christian" to refer to the two belief systems to annoy you, right? They're like chalk and cheese, if cheese was made of a slightly different colour of chalk.

Christians today still use Leviticus to decry homosexuality, while ignoring the other laws written there.

What is your religious basis for homophobia?

And remember: Jesus wanted us to love everyone, no matter who they were.

I don't mean any offense to you personally, but people using religion as an excuse to be outright hateful... that's one of my real-life berserk buttons.

*deep breaths*

I... I think I need to calm down a bit...

In many pre-Roman cultures in the Western world, (including several mythic figures mentioned in the Old Testament), one man married to multiple wives was pretty much the standard.

The American Indian* concept of marriage varies from culture group to culture group, but I can't recall a single group that saw marriage the way you're defining it here. Many groups (especially those with a strong agricultural tradition) had the concept of matrilineal descent - in marriages that were heterosexual, the children did not go to the father's clan, but to the mother's - they were raised mainly by their mother's family, brothers, sisters, and grandparents. Gender was not seen as a binary, mutually exclusive concept; there are several cases of women who were warriors and hunters taking wives.

What's really frustrating about the idea that marriage hasn't changed in centuries is that historically, it hasn't even stayed the same in America. The 17th and 18th century were notorious for marriage being a fairly fluid concept (as in, lots of divorce and moving in/out, lots of different marriages was kind of the norm), and in some of the communes that came out of the First and Second Great Awakenings, marriage was a community sort of affair - or abolished outright. Marriage has changed over and over and over again in the course of human history - even a cursory look at history will demonstrate that.

You are correct that marriage predates the American state. We see it as a religious institution that is recognized by the state. Therefore, the state absolutely gets to decide what kind of marriage to recognize. Just like churches get to decide what kind of marriages to recognize.

Was there such thing as marriage before the Christian Church? I would say that it clearly was. Lets look at Rome or Japan or any other civilization before Christianity. There was still marriage, again predominately for political, economic, and other very secular means.

Or put another way, is a non-Christian Marriage a marriage? And if it is, why should the religious (mind you a Christian Definition) apply? What makes it any more valid than say the Hopi Definition or any other Native Group? Or over say the Hindi Definition or some other definition from any other Non-Christian Group?

It is important to distinguish between incestuous relationships prior to God commanding against them (Leviticus 18:6-18) and incest that occurred after God’s commands had been revealed. Until God commanded against it, it was not incest. It was just marrying a close relative. It is undeniable that God allowed incest in the early centuries of humanity. If Adam and Eve were indeed the only two human beings God created, their sons and daughters would have had no other choice but to marry and reproduce with their siblings and close relatives. The second generation would have had to marry their cousins, just as after the flood the grandchildren of Noah would have had to intermarry amongst their cousins. The reason incest is so strongly discouraged in the world today is the understanding that reproduction between closely related individuals has a much higher risk of causing genetic abnormalities. In the early days of humanity, though, this was not a risk due to the fact that the human genetic code was relatively free of defects.

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/incest-in-the-Bible.html#ixzz3eJDTziIu

To be honest, I thought my response was fairly clear in... well, literally everything I've said in this thread. But sure, let's talk.

I'm going to skip over first to your apology.

I honestly did not know that it was a sore spot: I thought that you were just being unclear in some kind of an attempt to put the spotlight on homosexuality without any reference to the person that I am talking to. I acted in ignorance, and I apologize.

I'm truly not trying to be ungracious, but I feel uncomfortable accepting this. The fact is, you start off "Finally, a clear answer," to which my response is: I gave you a clear answer from the very start. I'm not going to go hunt down the emails we exchanged, but "I don't want to answer that," or "I'm neither male nor female" WAS a clear answer. It was a clear, definite answer that you refused to accept.

Second - God, I hate to do this, as it undermines the assumption of trust we tend to make in this community, but my point stands. "My gender is neither" is an adequate answer, and the fact is, you still have no idea if I'm telling the truth or not. I am, as it happens, but again, what does that actually mean? No one I meet in person knows what my biological sex is unless I tell them, either. My sex - and literally everyone's sex - is their own business and nobody else's. So in that respect, I WAS trying to make a point. Not a point about homosexuality, but a point about gender. The point was "My sex doesn't matter, any more for me than anybody, lay off." I could've told you right away, and again, in a way I did, but really, my point stands: it's none of your business whether anyone's sex matches their gender.

I'm aware this is going to sound rude, but let me be perfectly clear: is it any more rude than a politely-worded request for someone to inform you what their genitals look like? It doesn't matter that I'm intersex: if I'd come out and said I was biologically male or female, or trans and didn't want to disclose, it would still be none of your business.

Now. Your other two points.

I am not saying "you don't have the right to celerate the ruling"; it's just that I personally do not see the ruling as something to celebrate. So we're just putting it out there: not everyone is in accord that Obergefell v. Hodges is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

See, I might really dislike one of the faculty in my department, right? I'm still not going to show up to their retirement or tenure party and remind them that I'm not happy about the celebration. When the College Republicans on campus are having a party to celebrate something that went their way, I don't show up and tell them I disagree; I choose a time and place that's appropriate, rather than walking in and telling them "Hey, I'm just putting it out there, but I really wish the open-carry law hadn't passed."

I think Huinesoron answered your other point very well, but I'll throw in my two cents as well.

And anyone at the front lines of this knows that the assertion "It won't affect you" is false. Even you hint at the real issue in your first paragraph: "it's just one more step towards acceptance." That's the core issue here: whether we, as a society, are going to say that homosexuality is as equally valid, morally, as heterosexuality.

And... again, how does that affect you? Yes. We are one more step towards full acceptance. I'll say it again: how does this affect you? You are presumably not gay. You are perfectly welcome to continue being not gay, and attending a church, and voting for politicians, who agree with you. You can wear a shirt every day that says "Love the sinner, hate the sin," or "I'm Straight and the rest of you are going to hell," or whatever you like. You can go to non-gay bars. You can stand in front of gay bars with signs that say "I wish this place didn't exist" or, again, whatever you please. Yes, you're going to have to deal with the fact that the majority of society disagrees with you. So? The majority of society disagrees with me on a lot of issues; for example, the fact that non-gender-binary people exist. As a general rule, I sort of continue existing, and it does not effect me in the slightest*. Another example: my religious beliefs fall into a sort of weird place between religions. I disagree with the majority of society about things like the nature of God, etc. It doesn't effect me.

And when placed in those terms, the reason we Christian conservatives are fighting tooth and nail is as clear as crystal. And I am not speaking in hypotheticals here, it is clear from Europe and even here in the United States as well that wherever gay marriage goes, forced acceptance thereof follows. We are all but told the words of the Borg: "Resistance is futile." Either assent to the prevailing orthodoxy, or the will of the state will force you to, religion be damned.

No. It really isn't clear as crystal. What are you fighting? That people who aren't you and don't agree with your beliefs will... uh, continue to not be you and not agree with your beliefs? You're fighting for the laws and moral codes of your specific sect of your specific religion to apply to everyone. Including, I might add, the people who lived here for tens of thousands of years before any Christian set foot on these shores - gender and marriage and sex and sexuality are seen from a completely different worldview by the Plains, Coast Salish, Plateau, Basin, Southwest, Southeast, and Northeast tribes. (The Arctic are the only place I know where marriage... kinda sorta resembles European tradition.)

"Either assent to the prevailing orthodoxy, or the will of the state will force you to,"

I'll say it again - force you to WHAT? Not throw people who are gay in jail? Not stone women who get divorces? Not stone men who lie with men as with women? What are you worried about being forced to do? The majority of the population still identifies as straight, dude. Nobody's going to force you to do a single thing.



*that's actually a blatant lie - it effing sucks, getting a dirty look no matter what bathroom you use, having to explain to people every other day when they ask what you are, like, biologically, though, getting passed up by the bus because the driver didn't like what he saw, wondering whether that guy who's been giving you dirty looks in the bar all night is going to follow you out and go after you, etc.

"Gender" is mental, "sex" is physical.

People can have a biological sex that doesn't match their mental gender identity. That's what a transgender person is: Someone who is physically one sex, but mentally another gender.

I don't make claims to understand it all fully. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but, for instance, I think genderfluid means someone who can mentally identify as male or female at different times, or as neither.

"I realise I really upset you when I bullied you into revealing something deeply personal, but you haven't responded to the other things I said!" That's... really what you're going with?

Anyway, if you really want a response: I think this is an appalling statement.

And anyone at the front lines of this knows that the assertion "It won't affect you" is false. Even you hint at the real issue in your first paragraph: "it's just one more step towards acceptance." That's the core issue here: whether we, as a society, are going to say that homosexuality is as equally valid, morally, as heterosexuality.

'Anyone at the front lines'? What, like... the people who were fighting 'tooth and nail' to be allowed to marry the people they love? No? You mean the people who were fighting to control other people's lives?

As to the rest of your premise: yes, that's the core issue. Whether you can accept that an attribute or stance you don't share is just as valid as your own, or whether you will continue to claim that 'anything I don't do is inherently evil'. And you are on the wrong side of that.

And I am not speaking in hypotheticals here, it is clear from Europe and even here in the United States as well that wherever gay marriage goes, forced acceptance thereof follows.

Hi! I live in Europe! I have never been forced to go to a gay wedding; I have never been forced to have gay sex; I have never been forced to observe gay sex; I have never been forced to write articles in favour of gay people; I have never been forced to do literally anything except for not try to impose my own view of the world on people who don't share it.

In my view, you are dangerously close, if you haven't already done so, to violating Article One of the PPC Constitution, which states:

The PPC community will not tolerate any individual or group who intentionally discriminates against, abuses, persecutes, or otherwise attacks others in any way, shape, or form, for any reason. This includes, but is not limited to discrimination on the basis of sex, race, ability, national origin, sexual orientation, gender identity, and religion.

You are not only saying that gay people should be legally discriminated against - you are also saying that they are morally inferior to you. That's an attack, in my book.

hS

But the right not to be discriminated against is much more important than your right to discriminate against someone on a religious basis.
In all such matters you must ask yourself "what would I do if the boot was on the other foot?" which, in this case, means "would I be horrified if SCOTUS decided to finally legalise religious marriage after years of discrimination against religious people?"
Because, frankly, if you don't want to be discriminated against when you're the minority, you mustn't discriminate against other groups that are now minorities; otherwise, you're a selfish hypocrite and no more.

The interpretation of those words has been a mess. Particularly with establishment and free exercise, the Court has been inconsistent with what they mean.

Lemon is the test, but when it gets applied you get things like, prayer at the start of a public school day violates the establishment clause, but prayer before a legislative session does not.

it's interesting you bring that up. As long as what they ask doesn't directly contradict Scripture, then I'm to obey. I'd go to the lion's den. Whatever the penalty was for not performing the sacrifice, I'd suffer it. No law in the Bible says I can't not prepare food on Saturday. As for the last one, they'd probably just kill me, or force me to pay extortion money.

But, in regards to America, the Founding Fathers were all either Christian or had a deep respect for Christianity, and intended America to be a Christian nation. Free enterprise and Christianity together makes a rich, happy, and giving society. As long as the Christians are doing what they should, that is.

That oppression is morally wrong. What would lead you to say that?

On the whole, I think you and I are in accord. *shrugs* That was why I asked what July thought.

okay, but I really wanted to know why July thought that. But it's fine.

I think some (perhaps many) will be against the ruling, but I don't know if anyone will actually do anything. Eventually, it's quite probable that such officiatons will be forced upon them, following in the footsteps of private businesses. In fact, some churches that host weddings have already been forced to either accommodate same-sex weddings or stop offering their building to the public. All of this, of course, is unconstitutional-- we do not have a right to goods and services.