Subject: Dragons.
Author:
Posted on: 2015-06-16 09:04:00 UTC
Do any of you have access to The Last Hero? I'm pretty sure there's a double-page spread of dragon breeds in there somewhere. It's surely more interesting to you (the writers) and to your readers to use and build on something that already exists, rather than inventing your own breed (not species) of dragon, right? And I'm pretty sure there's a couple of non-explosive types in there.
hS
Hi, I'm Rustic94.
Me and my three friends: LoverofGames, artark, Master of the Blood Wolves would like it if anyone could give us feedback on our work here
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/10755982/1/The-Games-of-Gods
You can PM the boss, MOTBW or post a comment in one of the forum threads
https://www.fanfiction.net/forum/The-World-Table/160732/
We gladly await any feedback.
Hi. Welcome to the PPC Posting Board. We're a society of rather critical fans who like to poke fun at the flaws in other people's writing for entertainment. We're not exactly most people's first choice for seeking out reviews. Either you're actually looking for critical feedback, or you're very, very confident of the quality of your writing. Which is it, I wonder?
~Neshomeh
Mostly column A little bit of column B.
I've skimmed over the first few chapters; I haven't had time for a full reading. Unfortunately, I can't comment much on the Alagaesia portions, because I'm not very familiar with the novels. I CAN remark on the Discworld portions, though. What I notice is this:
1. As hS noted, there are some spelling and grammar issues. Are some or all of you non-native English speakers? Do you have a beta checking over the fic to catch mistakes and make sure the style is consistent throughout?
2. The authors are clearly attempting a Pratchett-esque style, but I'm not sure they quite understand how it works. It's more than just saying things in a round-about manner. There's always a reason; a point or a punchline.
3. A lot of things about the characters seem to be Just Because. The Watchman has a dragon that isn't a swamp dragon... because he just does, and because it just is. The witch has pointy ears and dislikes nudity... because she just does. The dwarf has a horse and cart... because he just does. The Golem eats cake... actually, can Golems even eat? I don't recall if this features in the books.
Again, Terry Pratchett rarely does anything Just Because. There is no randomness for randomness' sake; there's always a reason that makes sense within the narrative and the fictional universe.
4. The elf's name is Narsil. Really? Just because Paolini stole his concept of the elves from Tolkien doesn't mean you should steal MORE things.
5. Another unique dragon species, huh? You've got two universe with different types of dragons to play with, but you needed more different dragons? Why?
6. Huh, Alice really throws her magic around, doesn't she? She's not much like any of the other Discworld witches at all. So... why is she a Discworld witch, again?
7. The characters seem to accept the bizarre situation of meeting people from another universe very easily. They just kinda chat about it and get on with things. This makes me disbelieve in them as people, and therefore I'm not terribly interested to read more about them.
I'd recommend getting a beta and focusing a lot more on WHO your characters are rather than WHAT they are. Right now, they seem to be collections of labels rather than actual people with inner convictions that drive them. Note that Pratchett's best characters all have a certain something inside them that forces them to be who they are even when it gets them into trouble. Vimes believes in the law; Granny Weatherwax is intensely moral and self-critical because she's terrified of going bad; Rincewind runs (literally) on self-preservation; Carrot knows that people are basically good if given the chance; Vetinari knows that people are selfish, stupid animals. It's those inner things and how they express them that are the most important to a good character, not what they look like or what shiny things they possess or what quirky little habits they might have.
~Neshomeh
Okay, that's quite the list of points to address.
Some of them are quite valid, some of them we've thought through and haven't addressed yet, and some of them are mostly having a bit of fun, which was the whole number one point of the story.
So:
1. There're four of us and at least three of us are native English speakers, so any spelling\grammar mistakes that made it through are a collective failure on our parts that we'll see about correcting.
2. That's a fair point and something I try to keep in mind when I'm writing and something we're all practicing. Clearly we haven't quite got the style yet, so that's something we'll keep working on.
3. Before we even started writing the chapters, we drew up the characters. A lot of the things you put as 'Just Because' there we have thought through.
We might not have explained them right then and there, but that's because we have an endgame we're working towards or it's just something to work with in terms of character development.
Also, you might have noticed the story has a certain vibe of a pen-and-paper RPG in the scenes dealing with the Gods, which is intentional and also accounts for the density of eyebrow raising characters. It's a subtle joke on our part, though.
The witch we definitely have an endgame for her appearance, the dwarf is supposed to be a travelling merchant and something of a misfit and the Golem...Well, we're's the harm in having a bit of fun with a minor detail like that?
4. Something of an ironic jab at the source material, glad someone finally decided to mention it.
5. Patientia is a Fae dragon from the Flight Rising pet game. Hardly unique. She was included as a set up for a joke regarding the comparative size difference and Faes are really fun to write, given their monotone speech and expressing emotion purely through body language.
6. This was a concern of ours we asked clarification on in that chapter, so that's good to have that cleared up, so thank you for that.
7. This is a problem not unique to our story and something that can probably do with a closer look at on the edit, though one of the principle reasons it occurred that way so far as I can see is having multiple authors and this is our first time working together on a project.
We talk a lot, but this was a project I asked Rustic94, artark and LoverofGames to help me with because I wanted to write this story but wasn't certain of my skills to do it by myself.
A beta would probably help, true and character development is something we're trying to do as we go on.
The core principle we're writing this on is to have fun and hopefully our audience will as well.
Thanks for taking the time to look through, there were definitely points there we can pay heed to and a few points are explainable as this not quite being a 100% serious story and having some aspect of parody to it and some parts are set ups for things we plan to address in later chapters.
This is a work in progress, after all.
I think that's the vast majority of what you raised covered, so once again: Thank you for having a look, thank you giving some honest critical feedback and I hope you enjoy reading on if we haven't offended your sensibilities too badly. ;)
Just wanna respond to this one point, since it's sort of what the PPC is all about:
Well, we're's the harm in having a bit of fun with a minor detail like that?
The harm is that the minor details are what make up the big, complex worlds we know and love. Changing just one little thing may not be a big deal, especially if you have a reason that is properly explained and justified in the narrative of your story, but start changing a bunch of minor details, and the world starts to look less and less like the one I want to read about. Your story claims to have something to do with the Discworld, but if the dragons aren't swamp dragons and the witches don't act like witches and the golems don't act like golems and it's all just because y'all were entertaining yourselves, then it ain't the Discworld, and I ain't interested.
Don't get me wrong, it's fine to write a crack story with your friends for snorts and chuckles, but if that's what it is, then maybe consider keeping it just between your friends?
~Neshomeh
I can see where you're coming from. While I'm slightly annoyed (a past experience or two of dealing with people that shut down beta reading for a AU I had planned without giving it much chance, that left me a bit cynical and sour about some criticisms (one of used the term 'true fan'), I've to admit your criticisms is helping improve the re-edits that I'm currently doing for characters like Thumper, Alice and Alfie. Which makes me all the more happier.
And trust me, I know where you're coming from. There's been several adaptations or fanfics of my favourite stories that it feels like people put little thought and effort despite having sources through the internet to help out. Though my excuse for the handling of canon is to see how far I can bend the rules without breaking them (sometimes it works, sometimes I accident snapped them due to lack of information or forgetfulness). Unfortunately feedback is rare and on fanfiction.net they might not be quite helpful.
It also contains shots at some of the more common conceits and noisome plots that the Inheritance Cycle fandom write fanfic about:
Surviving Dragon Riders, Galbatorix having a daughter, Murtagh being portrayed as an emo who thoroughly hates his situation.
That and some of the bigger eyebrow raisers in the actual canon, like Nasuada being highly undiplomatic and using siege weapons on an open battlefield against a force of infantry and cavalry.
Alice's (over) use of magic is something we felt out of character and intend to adjust.
Thumper's love of cake we have a punchline for. We just haven't gotten to it yet.
This is good concrit by the way, so keep it up.
I took a quick look over the first chapter/prologue (in my capacity as Administrator of OFUDisc), and the story seems... relatively solid. Specifically, the feel of the Discworld was pretty good: I didn't stare at things and yell 'that's not right!'. Equally, the canon characters who showed up were... decently in-character. I disagree with the characterisation of Fate, but it's been a long time since I read TCoM.
I have some problems with their punctuation - missing commas, and some very weird dashphen use. I also... how to put this? The OCs, from what little I saw in the prologue, feel like RP characters; they have some pretty exaggerated traits. One sees people sunbathing (in Ankh? Yeah, but then again, Ankh has a railway system these days), and immediately freaks out about 'nudity' (y'know, underclothes), and thinks about how she has to take baths with her eyes closed. Another has a pet swamp dragon (which doesn't seem at risk of exploding).
Put together, this feels like people who've put a lot of effort into their story - but aren't sure how well their characters (and plot) hold up. So, both confidence and concrit.
hS
You would be correct Mister Huinesoron. Most of us - myself as an exception - feel confident about the fanfic and do wish to improve upon it anyway possible.
Admitly I made an OC dragon with the thought in mind that it is not a common dragon and from a undocumented species that lives underground. I'm hoping it isn't a major issue. The witch on the other hand I had in mind having gymnophobia, not sure if it is the accurate depiction of it but I'm hoping it is okay enough.
And thank you Neshomeh for the welcome. We're for the most part looking for critical feedback and I imagine most of us are both confident of our work and enjoy writing the fanfic for the fun. That and writing anything I imagine is a gamble as to rather people like it or not, we don't get enough feedback to tell if we're hitting the marks right or not. Therefore we welcome any that helps out.
Do any of you have access to The Last Hero? I'm pretty sure there's a double-page spread of dragon breeds in there somewhere. It's surely more interesting to you (the writers) and to your readers to use and build on something that already exists, rather than inventing your own breed (not species) of dragon, right? And I'm pretty sure there's a couple of non-explosive types in there.
hS
I'm afraid I might have slipped up in that regard (along with the golem's speech which is suppose to capital first letter at the start of each word).
Not sure if I can correct Alfie's appearance now... I could state later in the story that it is more of a subterranean lizard than a dragon which can make a chemical reaction in its mouth that's similar to breathing fire but more like a brief few sounds of fire that one would think it was a firecracker.
It would get rid of the dragon issue but create a new problem as well I guess.
Stories can still be edited after posting on FF.net. Unless the specific appearance of the dragon is a major plot point, there's no real reason not to change it.
That's one of the key points about constructive criticism: it isn't worth much unless you act on it.
hS
I have to ask Blood to allow me to edit past chapters, six of them.
That and there no other dragons in Discworld apart from the summoned one and the moon dragons that are not at the risk of going boom.
I might correct it.
My friend told me that you put up link images of different dragon breeds.
I'll look through them and then re-edit the parts with Alfie in them or mentioning her.
My hesitation for editing comes from overdoing it too much on previous self to the point I couldn't move on to another chapter.
Let it never be said I don't do things for, um, random people on the internet I've never heard of before.
All images below are photographed from my copy of The Last Hero, and are copyright the late Sir Terry and Paul Kidby.
37 breeds of swamp dragon, with their key (37 and 38 are the same breed). Since I guess you want a non-explosive variety, you could look at Ramkin's Optimist (#2, 'Good natured, seldom explodes') or the Quirmian Long-ear (#8, 'Mild-natured, but needs daily exercise'). A watchman might also find the Golden Deceiver (#11, 'Makes a good watch-dragon; should not be allowed near children') of interest. But really, look through it yourself and choose something.
A comparison of the anatomies of the swamp dragon (Draco vulgaris) and Moon dragon. So's you know what you're talking about.
A picture that is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand, but genuinely moving (I think); it's the first time I've gotten an idea of the sheer scale of the Discworld. Basically, buy this book. ^_^hS Doctor Huinesoron, Administrator of the Official Fanfiction University of Discworld
Okay first off, those are some gorgeous illustrations and thank you for going out of your way to photograph and post those, the gesture is much appreciated.
The funny thing is, I actually found a PDF version of The Last Hero yesterday and went through it with Rustic94 to see if we could find a breed that fit the given description of 'a dragon the size of a man's leg.'
The thing is working on just a headshot is kind of a pain, especially given the fact that only a couple of them are given definite sizes. (Read: on the small side.)
We could potentially work with either of those breeds if we had a size comparison, but without that, all we have to go with is plausible invention and a skit later in the piece to tie that loose end up.
They're about this big. You shouldn't see more variation in swamp dragon breeds than in, say, dog breeds - which is admittedly quite a lot, but they're not going to be building-sized (say).
Much like dinosaur fossils, the best way to interpret partial information is to read across from similar specimens. Barring any other information, all the swamp dragons on that page should be interpreted as similar to the Common Smut - basically 'medium-sized dog' scale. They should also probably be assumed to have four legs, except when specifically seen to only have two.
(And from a classification perspective: how, exactly, does breeding cause the elimination of the original wings, and the transformation of the forelimbs into a new set? It seems a bit farfetched OH WAIT DISCWORLD ^_^)
hS
Okay, just went and reread the original description Rustic had for Alphie and given the rule 'don't introduce something unless you intend to use it' and the skit we have in mind, this would be a case where going with what we have would work better.
Without giving too much away, it involves a Wish.
Here's the full description Rust had originally, which in retrospect we probably should've worked in to begin with:
"Richard’s dragon is a highly debated issue among his fellow watchmen and even among people who’ve met him and his ‘supposed dragon’. All can agree is that it looks nothing like your usual swamp dragon. Too sleek looking and nimble moving to be a dragon, no wings and looks more like a scaly mink the size of a man’s leg."
That ought to narrow it down in case we actually can come to a compromise with canon, which given this is a relatively minor point, it might be best to just let lie, considering how early on this story is at present.
We do have plans for everything we've added so far, it's just a matter of seeing them all through and getting back to posting on a semi-regular basis.
The OCs were developed using somewhat of a RP character sheet, so there's a reason for the RP vibe you are getting.
Hopefully we can iron out the kinks as we go along in writing the story. We probably might break some rules but we're avoiding as many pitfalls as we can and cushion the blow of breaking the said rules.
And I know that looking to the PPC is probably not a wise decision for confidence but Blood made this comment:
"Sooo...
Do you think GoG would come under fire from the PPC?
Because I'd be cool with it getting Sporked, if only because of the entertainment value."
Sorry for repeating some stuff over again, this like talking to the SCP Foundation all over again.
My personal rule of OCs is 'one coincidence per main character'. In this case, all your characters have been selected to play in the Game. They should then have no more than one plot-relevant attribute that's independent from that selection. It's a bit tricky in this case, given that they could well have been selected for their attributes, but it's still a good starting place.
And... hrm. Tell you what. If you give me a few days, I can send Agents Kaitlyn and Selene on an information-gathering run through the Prologue, see what they think. Interested?
hS
Sure, constructive criticism was what we were hoping for with soliciting reviews here.
Can't say for sure whether all our OCs follow it, but most do off the top of my head.
We've currently got two chapter sitting ninety percent finished with a third in progress as well and regarding The Last Hero, no, I don't think any of us have a copy.
The closest I got was a digital copy someone linked once, but the thread is long gone by now.
And Anonymous reviews are allowed, so feel free to give the bullet points version down the bottom when you're done.
Not for research purposes - just because it's a really pretty book. ^_^ The image I'm talking about looks like this, and has a key; unfortunately I can't find a large version online. (If you're desperately interested, I can probably grab my copy and scan it for you - but I'm guessing you're not.)
Mmkay, I'll take a run through the prologue and see what comes out, then drop you a review when it's done.
hS
I intend to, given I'm actually doing a read through of Discworld and buying the books as I go.
I don't know why I put the series off as long as I did.
That's not to say we're not doing our research, the wiki is our friend in this endeavour when one of the four of us doesn't have one of the books.
Currently stuck on Moving Pictures though, mostly because I don't really find Hollywood that funny. More depressing than anything.
Welcome! Here's a miniature of the Luggage as your newbie gift.
I'm unable to review your fanfic as the Inheritance Cycle is not one of my fandoms, but I like the sound of the summary!
Thank you Alleb.
I'll set up a google doc link and post links here and in the forum in case you wish to chat but don't have an account in fanfiction.net
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1zPKea7naRyjN__F742dHau42i6x24k6OIhlbX3ll0Js/edit
I don't randomly chat much, but perhaps someone else would like to.
Alright. The door is always open if you change your mind.
I've one question to ask before you go. Has PPC ever dealt with an internal problems like the SCP Foundation had to once or twice before?
Than here.
Anyway, to answer's Rustic's question: I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly, but Emergencies were a Thing in the past.
Ah so ye went through a few conflict of interest like SCP Foundation did at several points.
http://www.scp-wiki.net/history-of-the-universe-part-two
Through what I meant by the question was there any meta events like users disagreeing with one another that it cause problems for the PPC site, an example I can give is something like this (might be using the SCP Foundation as too much of an example but it's the only other web original work group that I know of).
http://www.scp-wiki.net/history-of-the-universe-part-three
Well - there were a couple... things? But I think that's for the older PGs to talk about, if so they wish - I wasn't around for most of them.
I imagine it is a rather sensitive and touchy subject, if so I won't pry any further.
Kind of half surprised as I guessed ye would've had some issues amongst one another though from how you're talking about them, they sound like that they were quite bad ones.
*rubs his neck*
No community is perfect. Thankfully, the Bad Stuff is few and far between, here.
It seems like the argument above this section is evident that things are not exactly honkey dory among PPC users. I'd say, 'Well speak of the devil.' but that's pretty cliché line to use if not true one.
To be fair, the sorts of arguments like the one I expect you're referencing (the return of zdimensia) are very much not the norm around here. Yes, we have disagreements, some of which go farther than others; but just about everything tends to be resolved quickly, people can generally figure out when to take a step back on their own or at others' urging, and--I stress this--it practically never goes as far as that particular argument. We do get some ugliness, but generally that's, I don't know, once every few years? Maybe hS has the figures; I certainly don't, beyond what I've seen and bits of what I've heard.
Essentially, in my experience, most of the people we attract as a community are people who can either function well as part of the community or, occasionally, who decide on their own to take a step back (sometimes in the form of a break) until they can. I can't tell you exactly how rare a case like zdimensia's is; but I can tell you that, in a little over two years, that's the only official ban I've ever seen handed down (and thus, the only one I've ever seen broken.) As for blocking, I think the only other blocks I've seen have been for things like spambots.
So, hunky-dory? No, not always, but that's people for you. Fortunately, however, we tend to be able to handle the non-hunky-dory moments in a relatively mature manner, on the Board and hopefully off of it as well.
~DF
PS: Although, you may have a slight point: 'speak of the drama, and it shall appear'? :D
...well, great. Now I'm hoping that wasn't on purpose. Maybe I'll check the timing...
But I do have a document-in-progress which describes in detail all the major events I remember. The list of headers is instructive:
The Thalia Weaver Incident
red wolf the weird
Lia
AIP/Moving the Board
The Philadelphia Fallout
Bast v. Artemis: Godstorm
Winkie
Union Jack
The Fall of Makes-Things
Tropewar
#PPC2
Jacergate
Plagiarising the Wiki
Invasion from Dimension Z
Ammo Guy
Of those, 'Plagiarising the Wiki' and 'Tropewar' were PPC-versus-someone-else, not internal conflict. And everything down to 'Winkie' took place in 2005 or earlier. There's a couple of things I should probably add (Ypurmageddon, More Than Just Killing Sues, and Boosette), but still: that's a really short list of drama for a dozen years of operation.
(If anyone has anything else they think should be on the list, let me know! My memory isn't exactly perfect.)
hS
Because I've only been around long enough for the last two (assuming Ammo Guy was the same person as SHEEEEEP and 7.65Xwhatever), and I'm curious to know what happened in the past.
I've filled it up with a lot of quotes, which means chunks of it are pretty personal to the people involved (which includes me, at times!). Not as in 'personal details', but... direct quotes, yes.
It'll probably go under 'available on request', to be honest.
hS
I'd be lying utterly if I tried to say the events surrounding #PPC2 et al still didn't sting, but if people really pushed for wanting to know details I wouldn't say no.
I just ask because I'd have to rely on stumbling across past incidents in the archives more than anything.
And the quotes were taken directly from the Board, and can still be seen in the Archives, right? Which means they're still available for public viewing should they find the right records?
The Board archives go back to, what, 2008? So anything before that might be in there (by way of the Wayback machine), but mostly isn't. The details I have of pre-08 events are taken from (public) Livejournal posts, pieced together by me. Unless you know where to look, you're very unlikely to stumble across them.
hS
I've read the article on Thalia Weaver Incident and Red Wolf the Weird. Never heard of the others, except possibly the Tropewar which I assume that was about the incident where TV tropes Admins accursed some PPC members of whitewashing details on the PPC page. Or was the Tropewar something entirely else?
Most of the others are... pretty minor, in the grand scheme of things. Winkie the Troll was fun, though. ^_^
hS
What did that one do?
Also, was there a big misunderstanding between ye and TV tropes? Because I doubt ye would do whitewashing and that Tv tropes would accurse members of a group, especially the PPC, of deliberate form of lying.
But Tungsten_Monk's responses to it were amazing.
The comebacks are very amusing ones. Not always sure if replying to a troll is worth it but this looks like the case of a good way to rip a troll to shreds.
Also, are some bits of canon from Discworld that rubbed you the wrong way? Personally I've found any for myself when reading a few bits here and there, my little sister on the other hand doesn't like the exploding dragons since she cares about cute animals in stories.
Laburnum and Twaki were the ones doing most of the editing of the TVT page with examples from their own spin-offs, which are a bit on the fringe when it comes to PPC stories (Laburnum's being squicky and Tawaki... well, he was a Ninja Pirate Zombie Robot werepenguin Borg Time Lord by the end of his run.
And when other PPCers tried to edit the page to show examples from more typical spinoffs, then the admins accused them of whitewashing.
Looks like a misunderstanding. First time impressions, despite the fact they shouldn't be solely used as final judgement, end up being a major factor. A rather innocent mistakes on both sides in opinion.
From the looks of the trope page of PCC, TV tropes does not want to ever mention that incident again. I only found out about the incident on fanlore... I think.
You (Rustic94) posted a question about if we'd ever had to deal with internal problems (in a similar way to the SCP Foundation)* on June 15th. 'Anonymous' began her thread on June 16th.
Not exactly conclusive, but it means the possibility's there.
.../sigh/ Fantastic. Now we'll never know.
~DF
--
*Speaking of which, did you mean in-universe, or in the community that writes the stories/SCPs? I didn't quite get that.
I meant the community that writes SCPs. I pretty much on hiatus with them as my imagination, writing skills and knowledge isn't up to the standard yet.
To be honest I've been through a somewhat of an conflict with another person on a different project. I accursed him of making a Mary sue, he accursed me of making a anti-sue. Turns out it was somewhat true on both sides.
Which makes me curious, have ye ever dealt with anti-sues?
I've taken both yours and some of Neshomeh's criticisms into consideration and started re-edit of my parts in the chapters of the fanfic me,MOTBW, Artark and LOG are doing.
I meant to put that on the chain of comments with Huinesoron. Sorry.
From what I've seen of PPC's work, the bad stuff is very much minimal.
There's been a few times where I worry that ye might end up making Mary Sues of your agents or sink low as some bad fanfic writers but for 995 of the time ye haven't so I'd say give yourselves a pat on the back.
Still wonder why ye don't do a mission or two in that yours agents show how the fanfic can be done for the better and how to turn a Mary Sue into a well made character... but I imagine there wouldn't be much humour in that, and some fanfic writers can hit beyond reasoning when criticism - even helpful ones in any form - comes their way.
...offered constructive criticism at the end of each mission. Is that the sort of thing you had in mind?
(Also, hi there! Have a plate of fresh SPaGhetti!)
Never heard of it until now.
As to rather you that being an a event that probably caused a few issues for other members that I'm curious about, maybe. If you mean by is that the type of feedback me and my friends would like for our collaboration fanfic, definitely.
... over here.
hS
Thanks.
I'll have a look through it.
