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I still do not feel it is reasonable to say that "overcome her unspecified mental health issue and function as a member of this community" should by default be read as "[giving] off a vibe of sweeping stuff under the rug". It can be read that way, yes, which is why I acknowledged that I should have made it clearer. But the PPC Constitution requires people to not assume the worst, but ask first.

I would like to see a copy of the Discord logs for the past hour, please. I am intellectually aware that you (plural) won't have been discussing me behind my back, but I am also feeling emotionally paranoid and would appreciate having the proof to enable me to calm down.

hS

Which now makes my message even more of an attack... Once again, I'm sorry.

In addition, I call on everyone involved to go carefully re-read the chat long. What you did may be worse than what you remember doing or what you thought you did at the time. I know that applies to my case.

Unless I am wrong - unless there is something that does fit that description - I feel the appropriate response is to make it clear what the problem is (which has been done by this thread), make it clear that any further incidents may result in a ban, and give Bramandin one last chance to prove that she can overcome her unspecified mental health issue and function as a member of this community.

And he mentioned that you give off that vibe, not that you actually said it. In fact, it's possible that he posted before he saw that made it clear that you did expect her to apologize when you said:

I see that I did not explicitly state that functioning as a member of this community would include making amends for this incident. I should have.

The problem is that second chances stop being as valuable after they've been given a fourth time, especially in the absence of an apology or a sign of remorse.

Someone brought up Scapegrace, a situation I'm ridiculously far from expert in, but know something about. I don't think that Scape should be thrown out for having done similar, but that's because I've seen her admit she was wrong, apologize, stick around for the criticism, and work to better herself.

It's not worth it, and it was never my intention to provoke or attack you in any sort, mate. Apologies for phrasing my response in a way that made you feel that way.

If someone says something that seems offensive, but you’re not sure exactly what they meant, ASK them first, before jumping down their throats.

Either point at where I clearly said Bramandin should be allowed to get away without apologising, or stop placing the worst possible interpretation on my words.

hS

Once again, I should clarify I know almost nothing about what happened originally between Bram and Ixi, back when the latter and Des agreed to be the former's Permission (I think) betas. From all the info I have, whatever happened made Iximaz dislike Bram greatly, to a point that she didn't want to interact with her. That's my view on the past.

I will agree with you, hS, that this is de facto Bram's first major offence. Yes, not taking concrit well shouldn't be considered a reason behind banishment. At the very best, it would result in a 'social ban' - people would simply deny Bram's request, knowing how she deals with critique.

However, I believe this incident shouldn't be resolved without punishment. Yes, second chance could probably be involved, but during the course of this thread Bram remained unapologetic, made a mockery out of every helpful and not violent response, and failed to understand Iximaz's wishes and personal space, continuously pushing her into conversation, then - when it became obvious nobody will take her side in this - she tried to spark the conflict in Discord. Bram doesn't feel in the slightest that she's done something wrong (and I'm not talking about the past incident with Des & Ix, but the current one). Instead, she feels like the victim. The only reason I'm not calling for Bram's ban is because I've done the exact same thing.

So here's my solution to the whole matter:

1. Somebody with full info behind the past incident talks it over to Bram, in private, making sure she understands why she did what she did.

2. Lecture Bram about respecting other people's wishes, and that even if she wants to make amends, they shouldn't cross with those wishes.

3. Have Bram apologize to Iximaz, in the exact form the latter requested.

4. Implement some form of punishment for Bram, but also give her the second chance to be the PPCer after her punishment ends.

And I have to admit, hS, - and forgive me for saying this - but your reasoning here does give off a vibe of sweeping stuff under the rug.

Apologies for looking like I was ignoring what you said, I never saw it to begin with. :l

I'm going to maybe be around until tomorrow evening, but I'm going to try to stay off the Board in general until I get admitted. So. Iximaz out.

... did anyone ever put back the temporarily-removed open invite? I can't see it on the Wiki page, so I think it might have slipped your minds.

hS

"I agree that we should be considerate of Bram's mental illness, just as we have been considerate of so many others over the years.

However, continuing to harass someone after being clearly informed that the specific things you were doing were unacceptable and needed to stop is not something that should be completely swept under the rug.

Therefore, I propose as follows:

Bramandin may not attempt to speak to or otherwise interact with Iximaz again. In other words, Bramandin shall act as if Iximaz doesn't exist. (This goes both ways. Ix, if Bram keeps trying to talk to you, ignore her and let us know. I know that's probably what you were going to do anyway in that scenario, but it needs to be said for clarity's sake.)

If this prohibition is violated, Bramandin will be subject to an indefinite ban from the PPC that will last at least 3 months."

I see that I did not explicitly state that functioning as a member of this community would include making amends for this incident. I should have.

I did make that same point in an email to Iximaz (in response to one I received), where I said:

I feel that the first thing to do is give her that day I offered. It's possible she's having a mentally messed-up day, and will apologise or step it back tomorrow. As you said recently, we extended that courtesy to you, so in fairness we shouls give newer people the same chance.

In the event that she either carries on or tries to ignore it, I thibk it would be appropriate to consider discipliniary actions. Whether that would be a warning or a straight-up ban would be up to the Board; so far as I recall she hasn't been warned for this kind of behavoir before, so the principle of second chances suggests thst option.

But I really do thinj that waiting for her to respond after a day or so - or not respond and prove she's ignoring it - would be the fair way to do things.

Apologies for typos and incoherence; it's eleven at night and my phone-fu is weak.

At this point, I don't feel up to being involved in this discussion any more; I feel like I will just be attacked if I do so. I've got one post Tomash has asked me to relay, but after that, I'm out.

hS

She did not continue further and Maslab issued a warning.

Can I please get someone from the Discord to corroborate Iximaz's claim that Bramandin went back to the chat to continue this conversation after she had been told, on both Discord and the board, to stop and apologize? I believe Ix, I just want to make sure we're doing this right.

Some time-stamped logs would also be helpful.

-Phobos, taking charge of this situation

I've already been dealing with other crap to begin with, so I'm not intending to point fingers at Bram and say "See? She's making me go back to the hospital bad bad bad!" This has been a long time coming, I think, it's just that this incident plus how the PPC is shaping up to handle it became the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

I'll be fine, but I need to leave for a few days until I'm in a better place.

And you are right. There were apologies in all those cases, and Bram has not apologized. What hS is saying is that we need to give Bram a chance to calm down and apologize. He is attempting to keep us from rushing to judgement again.

You can believe me when I tell you that we are not brushing this under the rug. We are doing what the constitution demands, giving the person who is breaking the rules a chance to stop.

That said, those of us who are only on the Board were not aware that Bram had gone back to the chat after falling silent here. We thought she had stopped and might calm down and apologize. It seems we were incorrect, and that likely means we need to talk about other measures.



Iximaz, I know that this is incredibly hard on you. I know that you are stressed out beyond what I can fathom. You may need to take some time off and, if you do, know that we will handle this situation. We are not letting this get forgotten, but we cannot move at lightning speed. We need time to ensure due process.

Please, trust me when I say that we are on top of this. I am on top of this and not letting it get forgotten.

-Phobos

In all of those examples you listed, you know what the difference was? An apology. Not continued escalation after repeated tellings to step back and attempted anonymous trolling. After meeting resistance on the Board, Bram went to the Discord where she attempted to continue this 'discussion'. She was shut down soon after, but all that I'm seeing is a general consensus that if she goes away on her own an apology isn't necessary.

I have spent the last two days shaking and throwing up from the stress of the situation and now that it looks like the PPC is going to go back to what it loves to do—brush incidents under the rug—I am going back to the hospital and considering calling off the Gathering.

So much for the discussion thread below.

Thank you for all the help you've been able to give in the Discord. I hope everything eventually pulls together for you.

As the title says. I'm going to start dividing these up into sections, as I have more concrete thoughts on these subjects going forward.

Coordinating in Private

Obviously, any sort of private collective action taken against one or a few members of the community should be discouraged. Like I said in my response to category four, if you have a problem with someone in the community then you should present it publicly and with evidence. Private coordination in general, however, isn't necessarily a massive ill. The Board is not necessarily the best place to hold a conversation, especially if you're trying to get your thoughts in order. Hashing out your thoughts with your friends can be especially useful. Like Phobos and Nesh said, intent is important.

Assuming Authority and Argument from Oldbie

I feel like these two can blend together in a strange sort of way. Let's be frank here: oldbies do have at least a small amount of unspoken authority. Not because of their length of membership, but because of their relevant experience. Experience should be used as a torch to lead the way, not as a club to pound a lesson into someone's head. Coming from the other side, newbies are not required to follow every word that spills forth from the mouth of an oldbie. They can chart their own path, make their own decisions, and find what works and what doesn't on their own.

As for the other aspects of these two points, I'll make things quick. Laying claims to parts of the PPC canon is obviously not great, but at the same time I agree with hS saying that anyone looking to make massive changes should coordinate with people who like to use that particular aspect of the PPC. Goodness knows I would like at least a little say if someone wanted to come in and make alterations to Bad Slash.

I don't think disciplinary action disparity between newbies and oldbies is much of a problem, if only because we barely get any disciplinary action done at all. Snideness aside, I would hope that in situations where some sort of measure must be taken, that the members of this community will put aside their concerns about length of membership or friendship and focus on the incident in question. Like Nesh said, it's about avoiding the battlefield mentality.

Splitting the PPC Community

I don't like the idea of someone creating a private PPC space, but at the same time our ability to control that is limited. I fail to see how the threat of a ban would convince someone who already wants to sort of split away. Perhaps activities to reemphasize community ties? I'm not sure.

As for the second part of the question, I agree with Nesh and Phobos: there are decisions and then there are decisions. As the admin of the PPC Discord, much of the things I have to determine are either little things (someone wants a special color-coding for their RP group, someone wants a new emoji, etc.) or they are things that require an immediate response (the threat of bots posting CP, the wave of trolls that popped in about a month ago). Things that affect the entire community (or most of it, anyway) should be and would be taken to the Board.

((I will post my thoughts on the final two categories either late tonight or tomorrow.))

First off, let me apologize for not saying anything in this thread in a more timely manner. RL has a way of making me feel tired and demotivated as of late. But that's beside the point.

Most of the issues in this particular category, to my eye, are not ones with easy solutions. It is not as if adding more rules to the Constitution will finally change how people react to major events. It's all very well and good to say "don't hold grudges," but trying to get people to actually do that is another thing altogether. As Tomash said, changing someone's thought process is not a quick and easy thing to do.

The recommendations I do have are ones that have already been brought up. If you have a complaint, bring it up to the community immediately. The entire community, and not just your immediate circle. Be specific. Provide evidence. Get involved with discussions. If someone gives an apology, take it as sincere in the moment. If that apology later proves to be hollow, however, then some sort of action should be taken.

Searching for "Hieronymus" finds some posts made by me, but only posts where I mentioned either Agent Hieronymus or Hieronymus the hermit. That’s one of the reasons why some of us sign our posts in a specific way: while we cannot search for posts we made, we can search for posts we signed (or where others mentioned our signature).

HG

There's a new Google Docs hack going around where you recive a email with a link to a document. Opening the document directs you to a page where you are asked to sign in when Google dosen't ask for a password if you're already signed in.

"Throw Missile 4 into the center of T2's wedge! Point 2 and 3 at T3's general direction! If we can get the Decoy up after all of that do it!"

... can basically be summed up as: "Be better."

The Discord attacked July. It did so because it likes Iximaz and saw her hurting, and because it was already primed to dislike July over incidents many years in the past. It collectively succumbed to confirmation bias and "there's no smoke without fire". Even those who weren't actively pushing the 'something must be done about July' message - and I accept after some fairly miserable rerereads of the chat log that several people were angling for 'this must be investigated', instead - need to think long and hard about why they let this happen in their presence.

When Desdendelle attacked Iximaz for having a mental illness, I (and others) stepped in and said that was not acceptable. But when people were saying things like 'It would be easier to just let the banhammers swing and get JF completely out of the picture before any more damage can be done', or '[we need to take action against] JF, I think'... people accepted it as part of the conversation.

Even those who didn't say it themselves accepted it as part of the discussion, accepted that targetting someone for banning without checking both sides of the story was a valid viewpoint. Which it isn't, and wasn't, and neither voicing it nor accepting it is acceptable behaviour.

I don't feel that any bans are appropriate. So far as I know, there haven't been any similar incidents before or since.

But if this sort of thing happens again, then yeah, I think anyone who was actively present and didn't speak up in either incident will need to be considered individually.

hS