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...but I can tell that your writing is looking good! Can't wait to see your first mission!

And that is such a mundanely wonderful reason to move a mountain!

Or several. ;)

... is that I seem to be turning up a bunch of things that aren't on the Complete List. Just now I hit upon Agent Jasper (https://web.archive.org/web/20040929022637/http://www.fanfiction.net:80/s/739705/1/), who was on the Wiki at one point but has been removed; she's got a publish date in April 2002, which puts her right in among those who Jay mentioned in TOS13.

I'm tagging anything not on the list with a big ADDED; there's probably at least a couple in need of archiving.

hS

I've only gotten through round one of adding what's still on Fanfiction.net to the Year pages up to 2005. After that it looks like a whole lot of IndeMaat with just a few others scattered throughout; less fun.

But, I'll go through this round, which is everything that comes up with the search term Protectors of the Plot Continuum, and then go on to round two, search term PPC.

... Or, well, that WAS the plan. Now I reckon I'll just gank everything with a confirmed date from your awesome spreadsheet! {= D

But, what I was thinking of particularly with trickiness is everything hosted on Google Docs and nowhere else. It's likely possible to find a publish date for most of them by looking through the Board archives and Wiki edit histories, but I still wish more of us were in the habit of including stuff like that in the document itself.

~Neshomeh

But I've got nothing to add. You said it all. :-)

From one angle, at least, it seems like they are trying, but aren't thinking it through and are generally being hopelessly clueless.

Of course, there's the other option as well... we may only hope.

I'm already 80 entries in. There's only 350-odd items on the Complete List, so yeah, it's quick work.

All right, you can't pin down a precise date for most things, but you can hit pretty close. If something shows up on one version of an archived list but not a previous version, it was probably made in that timeframe.

The biggest boon to this research is the Era of Livejournal, when all stories were helpfully posted with dates on... :)

hS

I never ended up giving it a full watch back in the day.

(I am, unfortunately, sitting on a long to-watch list, including Good Omens)

Hope you have a good time with the thing!

- Tomash

A bit earlier, Delta started off some RP in Rudi's with a machien that would print out relevant pride flags for characters that looked at it (but without outing people).

My tangential reaction to this was imagining some sort of plural entity (maybe one of those hiveminds that are made up of people who voluntarily decided to join brains for some reason - come to think it, have those come up in the thread yet?) coming by the machine and having it just hurl out all the flags.

And then I got encouraged to post the thought here, so ... yeah.

For being so short, it feels like it's part of a fully fledged world that would be cool to visit, and that's awesome. Amazing work if you wrote it with a migraine, too.

Happy Pride!



"I am Grey. I stand between the candle and the star. We are Grey. We stand between the darkness and the light." —Delenn, Babylon 5

I'm rewatching B5 with a friend, and I like the quote, even if it only sorta works here. {= )

~Neshomeh

I had a whole rambly post written about what Pride means, but y'all know it already. I'm not straight, I'm not cis, and I'm proud to be part of a community that has overcome so much resistance just to be who we are. I hope everyone who participated in festivities this weekend had a wonderful time!

Sadly, I lost today to a migraine - no marching here, but I did write a little gay fic, in honor of the occasion.

Happy Pride!

That's absolutely horrible. And I don't mean to detract from your very legitimate points about transphobia, but I also think there are plenty of points about ableism, as others in the thread have mentioned, that stand out to me even more. Like, prosthetic limbs exist, and they don't detract from "the sacredness of the body"??? Did the designers just forget about that?
I remember hearing some stuff about how they're trying to enable designing trans player characters (https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/344732/CyberpunkdesignersaysCDPRisworkingontransgendercharacter_options.php), but... ok cool, that doesn't make what they said any less inexcusable.
I had only heard the "design trans characters" buzz, which made me think they'd be at least well-meaning. It's a shame. I'm sorry you had to hear that garbage.

Because I have a potato of a laptop.

Second verse, same as the first...

https://docs.google.com/document/d/10zpjlcCU9x9VSO5LDVr0n2EomeSjiqke1r67S2wctSw/edit?usp=sharing

I bought Quantum Conundrum on Steam, but haven't really had time to play it.

Faust enjoyed the sensation of a job well done for a moment, smiling to himself, and set off the same direction.
Shouldn’t this be "set off in the same direction"?

HG

To echo Larf, I'm not calling transhumanism inherently transphobic. It is a theme, nothing more, and only one of several themes that are central to cyberpunk. However, themes don't exist in vacuums - they have similarities to things in the real world, which is what gives them their emotional impact. Even when they aren't deliberately, explicitly used as metaphors, you can't play with concepts like "people using technology to change their bodies" without touching on the people in the real world, right now, who are doing the same.

And in those spaces, creators need to be a little bit careful, because the un-nuanced message of "(fictional) people who use (fictional) technology to change their bodies are unclean" sounds an awful lot like "(real) people who use (real) technology to change their bodies are unclean," especially when there are already real groups of people, who use real technology to change their bodies, who are already seen as unclean. Sure, it's maybe not intentional, but they're amplifying a message that gets people killed.

Thank you for bringing up Deus Ex! It's a great example, because it uses augmentation as a theme to talk about discrimination. We see systematic, structural discrimination against augs in Mankind Divided, from the very first trailer, as well as violent responses to it. In contrast, in the heavily-analyzed scene in 2077, the creator invites us to sit in judgement on an augmented body. Here is a defenseless person, the game says, all their secrets exposed to the universe. Are they clean or unclean? Does this person's existence have value, or have they modified their body too much? Are they too far from normal human?

To make it as clear as I can: "is this person human enough?" is a terrifying question to ask.

Because. Hi. Only twenty-one states of the United States agree that I'm human enough that an assault on my person motivated by the changes I've made to my body is a hate crime. Only twenty-two agree that I'm human enough that I can't be fired for no other reason than the changes I've made to my body.

This isn't about "an intrusion of identity politics into popular entertainment." This is about people like me saying "the creators of this game are using a massive platform to blast messages that reinforce biases that kill us." And if you find my speaking up about it "disgusting and abhorrent", well - I'm sorry if you're offended or triggered by it.

I do have a couple questions and concerns on earlier posts:

I really don't see how you're reading "in the eyes of people opposed to the singularity" into that quote. Before explaining the scene (the paragraphs before the quote in question), the article introduces the team's perspective with "Badowski said that in the final game, his team intends to have full nudity [...] because it supports one of the most important themes in the cyberpunk genre: transhumanism". That's called back to after the scene is introduced, with a direct quote, "“Nudity is important for us because of one reason,” Badowski said. “This is cyberpunk, so people augment their body. So the body is no longer sacrum [sacred]; it’s profanum [profane].”" And after another few sentences, quoted directly from Badowski, we get to the line I spent time on previously: "She is not clean." The entire section of the article is written discussing the team's, and Badowski's, perspectives on transhumanism, there's no introduction of any other perspective. (Also, there's no discussion of the Singularity in the articles I linked - I'm assuming I can just substitute "people opposed to transhumans" in to your reading?) Can you clarify how you're getting to "in the eyes of people opposed to the singularity," please?

In your self-reply, the only explanation I can see for your entire fourth sentence is that you're reading a couple big logical leaps into my position: First, going from "Cyberpunk 2077 is using transhuman themes in ways that hurt trans people" to "transhuman themes in cyberpunk as a genre hurt trans people," and secondly, that my call to arms from that is "clearly, we can and should have cyberpunk without transhuman themes," to which the obvious response is, as you said, "it really wouldn't be recognizably cyberpunk if you start ripping out core themes." Is that a reasonable summary of how you got from "staple concept of the genre as attack" to "it's like saying you can have [genre] without [theme]?"

And third: The title of the book has always been Neuromancer, no definite article. If you're going to name-drop one of the foundational works of a genre with a lead in like "dating back to [author's] excellent novel [title]", please do try to get the title correct? It kinda makes it look like you don't really know what you're talking about otherwise.

Fourth and finally: "I can't be transphobic, I have trans friends!" is just about the least persuasive argument ever.

I do hope you enjoy your game. I'm not asking you to not play it, or even to not spend money on it. What I do ask of you is this:

As you're playing, ask yourself: What are the messages this game is sending about people who aren't like you?

As you're playing, ask yourself: What are the messages this game is sending about humanity?

As you're playing, ask yourself: What are the messages this game is sending about people who have redefined their humanity?

As you're playing, ask yourself: What are the messages this game is sending about corporations, and how they interact with people who aren't like you?

In less words: Please consume it, and please consume all media, critically. Think about the messages that are there. Think about how they sound in the real world. And especially think about what they imply about people who are already viewed as "abnormal", on any spectrum - be it neurodivergence, race, ability, gender, and so on.

I'm sure you aren't. You aren't transphobic for playing Cyberpunk 2077, either. You don't need to demonstrate how progressive you personally are--it's fine. We aren't really gonna judge you on that, either way. That simply isn't relevant.

I'll just say this:

Popular entertainment has always had identity politics. Everything is inherently political because everything inherently deals with what is good versus what is bad, what is normal versus what is abnormal.

The only thing that's changing is people are getting sick of being erased in media, and corporations are realising they can make money off this.
I know a whole lot more mixed race people in real life than I've ever seen in media, and we're a pretty damn privileged bunch compared to most, at least where I am.

I consider it pretty disgusting and abhorrent, myself, that there's a whole lot of people whose mere existence is considered a bold, revolutionary political act. Rather than, you know, just people existing, and their existence being acknowledged in media. Because these people exist, you know.

The fact of the matter is that anything that you think isn't political, or doesn't have 'intrusive identity politics', is just political stuff that doesn't challenge your worldview.
The claim that something 'isn't political' isn't anything more than propaganda.


I dunno man. I'm sorry if this seems harsh. You're not a bad person or anything, and I don't want you to think I'm calling you a bad person. But, uh, there you go.

I'm sorry guys. Look, I wasn't trying to trigger or offend anyone, or even be insensitive. I do get the perspective from which you are coming from: the cyberpunk genre is kinda outdated in terms of the political scale from which it comes from. I do get that Delta was making some valid points, and I do get that it wasn't so much the subject of the words 'unclean' or 'impure' that was the issue, but the fact they were being used.

Here's the thing though: I really don't give a crap about this stuff, at least when I'm playing a game. Sure, I'm politically progressive. I'm not progressive to the level of the crazies on Tumblr (and before anyone interjects, let me remind you these are the people who tried to attack 4chan- the metaphorical cesspit of the entire internet- and failed miserably), and I've been accused before of being slightly authoritarian in my views. I've also been told that's because of my Aspergers, and the tendency of people with the condition to obsessively categorise and control things, including the views of other people. I digress.

Getting back on track, I am a supporter of gender equality, and of pretty much every other leftist agenda, with the exception of militarised feminism. Without getting into specific examples (because I have been told to stop by members of this board), I find the constant intrusion of identity politics into popular entertainment to be disgusting and abhorrent. Again, I digress.

My ultimate point is that I may have gotten a little too heated over the criticism of the game. When it is finally released, and when I get my hands on a copy (depending on the amount of launch bugs or glitches, and depending on the initial reaction, I may take some time to buy the game following release); I'm not going to be playing it to propagate transphobia or whatever. I'll be playing because I genuinely love science-fiction as a whole (to the point of obsession: remind me to post some photos of my model starship collection at some point, if I ever drag them out of storage), and I love cyberpunk as a niche subgenre even more. There are too few games, movies, TV shows and books of decent quality within the genre, and Cyberpunk is looking to be a genuinely awesome addition to the franchise.

Again, I digress. My point is, I'm sorry for any offence I may have caused, and any triggers I might have pulled. I apologise.

One last thing before I post this. I would like to remind (or inform) anyone who has unwarranted suspicions that I'm transphobic- whatever the reasoning for that suspicion- that I regularly post on the Whateley Academy forums; and while I'm not exactly the most well-received community member (the forum has karma ratings, and last I checked, I had the lowest rating of the ~2000 registered members), I do get along- or so I hope- with the people on that forum; despite there being a large number of trans individuals posting there. Despite the situation here being somewhat different, I would hope I can get along with everyone here as well.

Regards

Crazy Minh.

It's why in my opinion the genre is utter rubbish unless it somehow finds a way to update itself for modern times. Cyberpunk had its basis in the political landscape of the 80s and 90s, hence the constant obsession with Japan--because people at the time were terrified of Japanese corporations taking them over.
This isn't an issue anymore, and yet, every modern cyberpunk setting seems obligated to feature it. Cyberpunk as a genre is stuck in the 90s, and that includes its politics in regards to human bodies and identities. Which is a damn big problem, because where Japanese corporations haven't been an issue in years, body policing is relevant as hell!

Nobody is calling the existence of cyborgs in cyperpunk an inherent attack on trans people. Chill out. Actually read what Delta said. What's transphobic and ableist is the suggestion that there is a normal human body and that diverging from it is somehow 'dangerous and unclean'.

This is an absolutely dangerous idea. Consider that the 'normal' body will invariably be able, presumably white, generally cis. This is a plain fact in our current political landscape--these people are the ones mostly in power. The idea of a normal human body came around during about the same time as Darwinism, determined statistically, observing traits across a population, so on. These ideas formed the basis of Eugenics, famous for all that Nazi business, but don't get confused--pretty much everyone believed this crap in those days. A fun fact is that criminals and the mentally ill were actually classified pretty much as the same thing, at this point. It's an idea that is basically poison.

And yet it lasts to this day, forms the backbone of practically all systems of oppression nowadays--racism, transphobia, ableism, good grief I don't doubt I'm forgetting plenty more.
People like to forget the eugenics stuff.

Obviously cybernetics is a staple inherent in cyberpunk--I certainly hope transphobia, racism and ableism aren't. It's a broken genre nowadays but I do hope it can be salvaged--it's just that Cyberpunk 2077 clearly won't be the one that does it. You're making a really false comparison.

Cyberpunk could very easily be an incredibly progressive and emancipatory genre, especially considering how deeply political it likes to pretend it is. It could make a point about the inherent humanity everyone has, no matter how 'abnormal' their body might be. It could make a critique on media and corporations and how they are constantly policing people's bodies and disregarding their inherent humanity for their own benefit. It could make a point about the power of technology, both as a form of oppression, but also as a form of freedom. You know, cyberpunky stuff.

But it never does!


Not to mention, you act like something being a genre staple makes it somehow inherently immune to criticism. If transphobia, ableism, and racism were inherent to cyberpunk (and to be clear, I think, they aren't, and don't need to be), burn the genre. If the life of a genre is dependent on oppression and bullying and other garbage, screw the genre.

It does look interesting with how the environment looks and the gameplay mechanics (like shooting through walls, ricocheting bullets, etc.), but personally, I'm not interested enough in it to buy it.

Largely within the real of the Point 'n' Click, which is altogether a friendly genre to this sort of game.

Sierra is probably the company that has created the closes analogue to your idea, with their relatively obscure edutainment title Pepper's Adventure in Time (currently Abandonware, hunt it down for use with ScummVM if you like). Which does feature a kid in a time machine who has to fix horrible problems created by a Big Bad (her evil uncle Fred) while learning about history.

Sierra did a similar, albeit less educational, idea far, far earlier, with the game Timezone, but that game stands out as a uniquely horrifying mess of a game even by Sierra's much-maligned standards of playability, solubility, and... well, sanity.

There are other games that have done this idea, I swear, but the closest that comes to mind right now is Day of the Tentacle, which has three kids (one in the past, one in the present, one in the future) all trying to fix a time machine to get back to the present and stop and evil tentacle from taking over the world by preventing him from drinking the toxic sludge that turned him evil. No, it's not quite what you had in mind, but it is very funny, and it's one of Lucasarts' best, which means it's de-facto in the running for Very Greatest Adventure Game Ever Made Ever. So at the very least I can suggest that you play it if you're into that sort of thing.

Because that's a pretty hair-thin distinction you're drawing. If the concept of transhumanism (defined, as I understand it, as humans being augmented in any way by any technology) is being portrayed as "unclean," that assumes that there is such a thing as a "pure human" to begin with, which is plenty messed up with or without explicitly bringing sex and gender into it. Who decides what's a "pure human," eh? Based on what criteria? This is how we get that one episode of Babylon 5 where we learn an organic AI (not even a wholly mechanical one!) slaughtered an entire species because no one 100% fit the impossible standard of purity it was programmed to protect.

Or, more likely, such a thing would take its standards from the privileged elite with the power and resources to create it, and any part of society with less privilege would be wiped out because the designers just didn't consider the existence of lives much different from their own. Privilege is myopic like that.

The point is, if you're arguing that it's perfectly harmless and innocent for the director and audience of this game to take the stance that transhumanism is bad, and anything that isn't "pure human" by some unknown definition is unclean, I'm here to tell you that is still incredibly worrisome, and I'd advise you to rethink your position.

I'm not even addressing your next post; there are others better suited to do that (and hey, Ix is one of them, and they have). I'll just say it was unwise, and advise you to choose your battles or at least your words with more care and consideration for the people you're talking to.

~Neshomeh