Subject: Ekyl, I'm sorry. I won't flame again, ever. (nm)
Author:
Posted on: 2014-11-04 00:32:00 UTC
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Now that all that nastiness is over, I need a beta (again) by
on 2014-11-01 14:46:00 UTC
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Yep, you guessed it, Iv'e started to work on starhunter again. For those of you who don't know, starhunter is a game Idea that I've been working on for.... about half a year now. Here are some basic details:
GENRE: first-person roleplay-shooter, but it contains massive amounts of dialogue and a relationship mechanic (similar to persona's social links).
SETTING: an alternate dimension that exists in the minds of those "Taken" to it (technologically, the shared mind-world is highly reminiscent of Halo, Starship troopers, and Killzone.)
TARGET AUDIENCE: 10-14, but starhunter's emphasis on world-building, deep customization, fleshed-out story and characters, and some darker themes than most other media targeted to that age group will most likely draw in an older periphery demographic.
STORY: the amnesiac main character learns about (and fights for) the main empire of the mental world, but soon finds himself embroiled in a conflict that affects both the mental world and earth.
OTHER: customization is a large part of the game. armor, weapons and ships can be modded, and even mods have slots for components.
Anyone find that interesting? well, Since my last beta request for this game didn't exactly work out the way I planned, I would like to Email anyone who is willing to beta this (The last person to beta was James Shields.) -
Hold on. by
on 2014-11-01 15:10:00 UTC
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I need to point out a few things.
One, the aforementioned "nastiness" isn't really over. You owe Huinesoron at the very least an apology. Maybe a few others. That wasn't optional when I brought that up the other day.
For two, this us am interesting idea, but the PPC isn't really the right audience for this- while there's plenty of writing involved, there's a heck of a lot more.
Who's doing the coding for this? Graphics? How are you going to make this happen? You need more than just an idea for a game to make it happen. -
RE: Hold On by
on 2014-11-01 15:17:00 UTC
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hs, everyone else I may have insulted, I'm sorry. I'm just immature.
Well, If not the PPC, then who? and besides, with JS gone, I have no-one to review the story elements except for my dad's cousin, who is way too busy at the moment and prefers tabletop games to videogames.
And I plan to sell the concept to a company. If you're going to tell me it's not going to happen, save it. I've heard both sides of that story, and it's kind of impossible to tell which side is true. -
There's a deeper root you're missing here. by
on 2014-11-01 18:49:00 UTC
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First off, hS didn't just magically "disappear," you flipped out and swore at him for giving you constructive criticism - then, with that thread not even halfway down the page, you went looking for a beta. Second, you seem to have gone after him specifically in your requests because, and I quote, "...you seem to have graded hundreds of characters in the last decade, but everyone that grades my other characters are inexperienced."
I don't know if you're referring to the thee PGs (in which case you're wrong - all of us, or at least the ones you've dealt with, have been doing this for years, some of us professionally on occasion), people outside the PPC, or just the people who have commented on your repeated beta request threads. I obviously can't speak to the people outside the PPC, but I've seen several experienced writers and critics give you feedback.
Know what else I've seen? You have not treated any of them well. You have gotten defensive when people ask you for more information, you have snapped at people who point out flaws in your characters and writing, and I don't believe I have ever seen you thank anyone, regardless of the nature of their feedback, for taking the time to help you. This is, as you have repeatedly pointed out, immature. It's also a really great way to ensure that absolutely no one wants to beta for you. Beta-ing an idea requires trust on both parties: trust that the writer will be respected, and trust that the beta will be as well. Nobody wants to get involved with a writer who only takes praise, and rejects or gets angry so quickly... and who never acknowledges that the beta is doing a job for them.
So - yes, your response to hS was immature, uncalled for, and most of all verbally abusive, which goes against the Constitution (and standards of behavior in most communities). More than that, though, your behavior on the whole has been immature, and it is not okay. Saying "I'm just immature" is not an excuse, nor an apology. To move past this, you need to make a conscious effort to stop this behavior. Until you do, I predict that you are going to have the same problems over and over finding a beta, not just here, but anywhere.
Unbidden, I keep thinking about how I would've responded to one of my reporters doing this, when I was editing the campus newspaper. Or what my adviser would have done, if I had gotten hurt and angry when he pointed out the major flaws in my scholarship application. My priest has a saying about getting your ego out of your writing, which he has thrown at me several times, and which I think may be useful: make sure that your self-image is not reliant on the work that you do, because you will never be satisfied with it (and you will always have trouble taking criticism). -
The PPC Constitution by
on 2014-11-02 21:51:00 UTC
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Article 2. Do Not Flame. There is a distinct difference between 'I don't agree with your opinion and I think that your theory is factually wrong' and 'You're an idiot and your opinion is built on lies and stupidity'. If you find that you're hurling insults around, just stop.
--I consider what has been said about Ekyl to be in violation of this. It could be open for debate, but that's where I am seeing it.
Article 3. Jokes about subjects such as rape, murder, abuse, bigotry and mental health issues will not be tolerated. These topics are considered to be Unfunny and 'it was just a joke!' will not be an accepted argument or excuse under any circumstances.
There have been so many violations of this one. He was warned multiple times in IRC for this type thing before being banned for it. (He used the name Sheeep on IRC). He's been warned repeatedly in threads on the Board for this one. He has never, to my knowledge, said he'd actually stop doing it or expressed any understanding of why there is disapproval for it. If I'm wrong and he has actually shown this, I'd like to see a link to it posted.
Article 4. People engaged in any violation of the Constitution, particularly Articles 1 & 2 will be given at least one actual chance to stop and apologise. Telling someone to shut up because their opinion is unwanted does not constitute a chance. Giving someone a chance means informing them their behavior is wrong or unwanted according to our Constitution and why, as per Article 9.
Iximaz was very blunt here with this. Others (VM, hS, July, Neshomeh, doctorlit, Desdenelle, and Phobos) have all been rather polite and used more words, but basically said he should stop and change direction. The best that has been given is a "Sorry, I'm immature." Followed by a great deal more of the same behavior.
Article 7. If someone says something that seems offensive, but you’re not sure exactly what they meant, ASK them first, before jumping down their throats. Astonishingly enough, most people aren’t out to offend anyone. (If they are being deliberately insulting, believe me, you’ll have a lot of backup.) Don't be afraid to ask what someone meant- it isn't silly to want the full facts.
I'm fairly sure that it has been stated pretty clearly by 7.65x54R that insult is exactly what he did mean.
Article 12. The PPC community is kid-, family- and work-friendly — make sure it stays that way. That means no cursing, no graphic violence, sex or whatever. If you feel you have to break this rule, please give a specific warning (and remember, just because you don’t have a problem with something, doesn’t mean others won’t). The PPC shared universe is also kid-, family- and work-friendly, but in this case the rule is to warn for anything that raises your rating, rather than necessarily cutting it out.
This has been a repeated, repeated issue, and even after the large thread just a couple of days ago, he said this:
You want to see my flamer side too? hint: If I can think of disturbing acts of sexual violence on a whim when perfectly calm, do you really want to see what I think of when angry?
It seems like a lot of people have been very kind and put in a lot of effort toward helping 7.65x54R fit in with the community and grow as a person and writer, but that he may not ready for growth at this point in time. -
Having reviewed the thread... by
on 2014-11-03 14:36:00 UTC
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I'm inclined to agree, especially if Ammo Guy has already gotten himself banned from the chat for inappropriate behavior. It might be good to see some documentation of that, if it still exists, but I think it was agreed that bans should apply equally across PPC spaces, so that coupled with what we've seen in this thread seems like more than enough justification for us saying "enough is enough."
I did see today's "fine, I'll stop" in response to KittyEden stating outright that banning might be appropriate, but I think it's too little too late. He was given plenty of warnings and time before now, and I've seen zero indication that Ammo Guy intends to change his ways anytime soon.
As to the matter of Ekyl allegedly flaming Ammo Guy, even if it's true, this was not an appropriate way to handle it, and "that other guy did a bad thing, too!" never has been and never will be an excuse for your own bad behavior. Anyway, I seriously doubt Ekyl was anything other than his admittedly blunt self, since the description of the "flaming" is basically "he used a lot of words to say he thinks my story is unfocused because the genres don't work together"—hardly a dire insult—and I'd bet money that Ekyl never used the words "sax ballz" or any variation thereof. I'm underwhelmed by the accusations, and I don't think Ammo Guy actually understands what concrit and flaming are.
~Neshomeh -
On behalf of the IRC... by
on 2014-11-04 02:55:00 UTC
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Ammo Guy (Known as SHEEEP on the IRC, for reasons only clear to him) got in the habit of posting very out-of-context things when he arrived on the IRC:
Jul 22 19:48:52 * SHEEEP (Mibbit@6ca5ed36.6ca5eca2.119.67.imsk) has joined #PPC
Jul 22 19:49:25 <SHEEEP> VILLAIN SUE DOES.....THINGS TO BABY!!111One!!!1one
And then this one started showing up:
Jul 23 19:05:07 * SHEEEP (Mibbit@6ca5ed36.6ca5eca2.119.67.imsk) has joined #PPC
Jul 23 19:05:21 >SHEEEP< dood....man on pig
There was also assorted bravado:
Jul 27 18:09:53 * SHEEEP (Mibbit@6ca5ed36.6ca5eca2.119.67.imsk) has joined #PPC
Jul 27 18:10:45 <SHEEEP> does anyone remember the baby-talk rape sentence from "for your eyes only"?
Jul 27 18:11:08 <Piebook> we already know your views on it
Jul 27 18:12:23 <SHEEEP> I read "subjugation" 2 days ago. it wasn't disgusting(or funny)at all.
And then things got worse:
Aug 01 21:45:25 * SHEEEP (Mibbit@6ca5ed36.6ca5eca2.119.67.imsk) has joined #PPC
Aug 01 21:45:40 <SHEEEP> dood....man on pig
Aug 01 21:45:50 <Nord> No.
Aug 01 21:46:00 <Nord> You know my answer. Get out.
Aug 01 21:46:28 <SHEEEP> sorry.
Aug 01 21:47:08 <SHEEEP> did TooPurple tell you what it means?
Aug 01 21:47:24 <Dann> ...should I know what it means?
Aug 01 21:47:54 <SHEEEP> not unless you want to laugh.
Aug 01 21:48:32 <Nord> NSFW?
Aug 01 21:48:53 <Nord> Because I don't want /that/ image stuck in my mind.
Aug 01 21:51:03 <SHEEEP> what about MAN BANGS HIS OWN BABY!!!!!!11one!!!!!! or INSANE VILLAIN SUE DOES.....THINGS TO BABY!!1!!!!111one
Aug 01 21:51:26 * Dann sighs and reaches for the kicking boots
Aug 01 21:51:35 <Nord> Get out.
Aug 01 21:51:43 <SHEEEP> why?
Aug 01 21:51:59 <Nord> You ever pay attention to the things you said? It's called tact.
Aug 01 21:52:04 <Dann> (Things that do not amuse me: Joking about breaking the rules.)
Aug 01 21:52:16 <Dann> (You are leaning close to the line on that one)
Aug 01 21:52:38 <SHEEEP> fine. let's switch topics then.
And then we found out what "Man on Pig" meant:
Aug 02 21:29:46 * SHEEEP (Mibbit@6ca5ed36.6ca5eca2.119.67.imsk) has joined #PPC
Aug 02 21:33:46 <SHEEEP> dood....man on pig
Aug 02 21:35:05 <Lily-Sinful> ?
Aug 02 21:35:38 <Miah> You really don't want to know Lily. He is being purposefully offensive
Aug 02 21:39:04 <Dann> Hey, SHEEEP - Can you explain that reference without violating the PG-13 guideline for the channel?
[...]
Aug 02 22:16:18 <SHEEEP> it comes from a British comedy called black mirror. the reference is from the first episode.
Aug 02 22:16:19 <SHEEEP> the prime minister of the UK must do things to a pig in order to save the princess.
Aug 02 22:16:23 <Miah> He was joking
Aug 02 22:20:51 <Dann> How about... you don't open with that every time you join the channel, mm?
Aug 02 22:23:34 * SHEEEP has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
Things got more heated the next day:
Aug 03 20:49:06 <SHEEEP> you have a cow?
Aug 03 21:04:46 <SHEEEP> dood....man on pig
Aug 03 21:05:05 <Nord> Get the hell out.
Aug 03 21:05:30 <Dann> I'm inclined to agree with Nord on this one. Knock it off, SHEEEP.
Aug 03 21:05:33 <SHEEEP> how do you know what that means?
Aug 03 21:05:37 <Nord> I told you repeatingly. You never listened.
Aug 03 21:05:43 <SHEEEP> fine.
Aug 03 21:08:38 <SHEEEP> INSANE VILLAIN SUE DOES.....THINGS TO BABY,DECAPITATES IT,AND CONTINUES TO DO THINGS TO IT FOR 4 MORE PAGES!!!!!!one1111111!!!
Aug 03 21:08:51 <Nord> Dann?
Aug 03 21:09:02 <SHEEEP> HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!
Aug 03 21:10:06 * Dann has kicked SHEEEP from #PPC (SHEEEP)
Aug 03 21:10:55 * IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO (Mibbit@6ca5ed36.6ca5eca2.119.67.imsk) has joined #PPC
Aug 03 21:11:29 <Dann> ...Word of advice, person-formerly-known-as-SHEEEP.
Aug 03 21:11:35 <Dann> That was just a kick.
Aug 03 21:11:44 <Dann> It's a friendly reminder that I'm not a fan of what you're doing.
Aug 03 21:11:54 <Dann> I advise shutting up and trying to avoid continuing.
Aug 03 21:12:07 <IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO> fine. I really can't help it.
Aug 03 21:12:23 <Maslab> Then leave.
Aug 03 21:12:45 <Maslab> If you can't keep yourself from talking about sexual assault and gross amounts of violence
Aug 03 21:12:46 <Maslab> Then get out
Aug 03 21:14:11 <IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO> what's your problem?
Aug 03 21:14:27 <Dann> At the moment, you are.
Aug 03 21:15:23 <IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO> well,everyone ignores me until I say stuff like that.
Aug 03 21:15:46 <Maslab> Well it's not exactly endearing
Aug 03 21:15:49 <IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO> so how else will I get your attention?
Aug 03 21:15:58 <Maslab> And it is so much easier to ignore someone when they're banned from a channel, let me tell you.
Aug 03 21:16:45 <Maslab> ... And if that's your case for why you say it, you are not helping yourself out at the moment.
Aug 03 21:17:50 <IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO> Iv'e tried every other method.
Aug 03 21:18:07 <Dann> I'm not sure how to put this to you: This channel isn't a machine for giving attention to anyone who asks for it.
Aug 03 21:18:32 <IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO> fine.
Aug 03 21:18:40 * IHAVENOTYETBEGUNTO has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
He was quite quiet for a while, and then this happened:
Aug 23 18:54:43 * SHEEEP (Mibbit@6ca5ed36.6ca5eca2.119.67.imsk) has joined #PPC
Aug 23 18:56:22 * HOURAISAN has quit (Quit: /me makes bunny sounds)
Aug 23 19:09:13 * Ozzielot has quit (Quit: http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client)
Aug 23 19:50:27 <SHEEEP> ------- Censored-by-Dann baby-talk rape scene ------------
Aug 23 19:50:48 * Piebook has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
Aug 23 19:50:55 <SHEEEP> courtesy of "for your eyes only'
Aug 23 19:51:59 <Miah> Wasn't there a discussion about how stuff like that is not appropriate to post in here?
Aug 23 19:52:16 <Miah> Maslab?
Aug 23 19:52:50 <Maslab> ... Yeah
Aug 23 19:54:42 <SHEEEP> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! the baby-talk rape sentence is funny.
Aug 23 19:54:57 * Maslab sets ban on SHEEEP!*@*
Aug 23 19:55:09 * Maslab has kicked SHEEEP from #PPC (And you're done.)
And that's how SHEEEP / Ammo Guy got himself banned. -
Wow. That's appalling. by
on 2014-11-04 09:18:00 UTC
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I support that ban, and support extending it to the Board, Wiki, and any other PPC spaces that do or will exist. That's just... appalling. Someone who thinks that's acceptable behaviour, after being repeatedly told to stop, has no place in this community.
hS -
I'm leaving for 10 years. saves you the trouble (nm) by
on 2014-11-04 09:20:00 UTC
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You want to ban me? fine. by
on 2014-11-04 03:11:00 UTC
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I was never good enough for you guys anyway, right?
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This has nothing to do with goodness... by
on 2014-11-04 04:19:00 UTC
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...and everything to do with the part where you posted NSFW stuff on the IRC repeatedly after being asked to knock it off. And maybe something to do with the level of immaturity you've shown here in dealing with people who have tried to help you.
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You could always leave voluntarily. by
on 2014-11-04 03:31:00 UTC
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Preferably with the explicit acknowledgement that your behavior has been unacceptable and the intent to do some growing up and learn that the world neither revolves around you nor owes you anything just for existing.
Or you can keep up the woe-is-me act, and I for one will absolutely advocate banning you for being persistently creepy and breaking the rules after being told to stop multiple times. Either way.
~Neshomeh -
Calling for a vote, here. by
on 2014-11-04 09:20:00 UTC
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Or rather, a counter-vote: is there anyone who does not think 7.65x54R should be required to immediately either leave the PPC community voluntarily, or banned outright?
hS -
Going to have to agree with a ban. by
on 2014-11-05 02:23:00 UTC
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Quite frankly, I can't believe we're on the second one this year after never really requiring an outright IP one before this for years.
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We're not. by
on 2014-11-05 09:10:00 UTC
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zdimensia didn't get IP banned; she was told to leave, and did so. In fact, to all appearances, so has Ammo Guy.
IP bans have, historically, been almost exclusively used for spambots and explicit trolls - the ones who are being disruptive as their sole motivation for being here (and thus won't leave when they're told to), rather than the ones who are making at least some effort to join in (even if that effort is solely because they want to write their canon-rending story). The main exception to that is Jacer, who actually claimed they wouldn't post any more either - the IP Mallet was thrown at them purely for effect.
If Ammo Guy posts again, after all this discussion, I'll consider this thread to constitute a unanimous vote for Immediate Malletting For Effect. It works better if people can see it working, n'est pas?
hS -
Immediately after saying he would leave, Sheep posted. by
on 2014-11-05 14:07:00 UTC
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In the "share your works" thread a bit up the page he started hawking his Persona fic again. I think that counts for certain.
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Huh? by
on 2014-11-05 14:57:00 UTC
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Surely he posted in that thread on the 3rd, and made his four 'decade' posts on the 4th. Was there an earlier statement that he was leaving?
hS -
Hm. So he did. by
on 2014-11-05 15:23:00 UTC
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That said, he still can't be trusted to abide by that - several times now he has said he would leave, only to show himself again in short order and cause the same problems. The only way to be rid of him is to give him the mallet.
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I think we can wait and see. by
on 2014-11-05 16:11:00 UTC
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I'm with hS that we shouldn't be too eager to resort to IP banning. It's always possible that it might affect someone besides the person we're targeting, and it's difficult to tell if we've actually taught someone a lesson if they can't prove it. If/when he actually does pop up again, we can whack him just as easily then. We're still rid of him in the meantime, which is what we want.
~Neshomeh -
Also... by
on 2014-11-05 16:43:00 UTC
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Ten years is a long time. Longer than some of us have been around the PPC at all. An IP ban seems more symbolic than effective at that stretch. Do we think everyone's IP is going to stay the same for that long? Who's going to volunteer to remind us in ten years to unban?
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That's assuming we even take the decade seriously. by
on 2014-11-05 18:25:00 UTC
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I mean, if someone stays away for ten years, they're probably staying away forever. After that long, you're basically a different person, especially if Ammo Guy is as young as I think he is. If he makes it one year, I'll be suitably impressed.
~Neshomeh -
He's almost certainly lying, though. (nm) by
on 2014-11-05 18:24:00 UTC
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But there's no way to know that. by
on 2014-11-05 18:37:00 UTC
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Until he proves that we can't trust him to stay gone, we should assume good faith. If he does prove untrustworthy, then we can, and should, bring down the hammer with force sufficient to get our point across.
-Phobos -
What about the past times he's said he'd leave or improve? by
on 2014-11-05 18:58:00 UTC
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Every time before this he said he'd leave the community or change his behaviour, he has almost immediately gone right back to causing trouble around here. I'll go with what you guys say, I'm not authority, I just have my concerns.
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The community is the authority. by
on 2014-11-05 19:04:00 UTC
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And the community has banned him. That's done, as far as I'm concerned. He's banned. He's not allowed to come back. Ye PPC Has Spoken. He has received the highest sanction.
Using a technical means to enforce that ban is unnecessary until... well, until it becomes necessary. At that point, since he is, in fact, banned, he will be IP blocked and deleted.
'IP ban' isn't a higher level of ban than 'community ban'. It's a way of ensuring the latter takes place. It's only used when actually required - which, until Ammo Guy shows up again, it currently isn't.
hS explaining the technical stuff -
This is a good point. (nm) by
on 2014-11-05 18:00:00 UTC
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My thoughts... by
on 2014-11-04 14:26:00 UTC
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Well, more like thought. As much as Sheep is going "oh, I'll leave for a decade," I don't trust that he actually will leave voluntarily. Might as well put through the ban.
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Seconded. by
on 2014-11-04 14:34:00 UTC
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Considering that he said he'd leave thrice and continued posting despite that...? He needs a hammer.
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To clarify: by
on 2014-11-04 14:59:00 UTC
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A 'ban' simply constitutes the community demanding that he leave. It's not a technical anything. IP blocking is a technical measure which is used to support a ban, in the event that a banned person refuses to stay gone. As an example: Jacer was IP banned because they just kept coming back. zdimensia wasn't, because she left when she was told to.
I would consider stating that you're leaving and then coming straight back as being the same as violating a ban; in that case, I guess the thing to do would be to outright state that he's banned, and do the 'reply one time to say that you understand this, and then never post again' thing. If that gets ignored, it's onto IP block and delete the messages.
hS -
IP ban the guy. by
on 2014-11-04 16:05:00 UTC
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Fourth time he said he'll leave, then posted. He's either really, really oblivious or, you know, trolling.
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After seeing the IRC logs... by
on 2014-11-04 16:12:00 UTC
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I definitely support the motion to ban. Repeated infractions after multiple warnings would not bode well for a voluntary abscence.
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I'm of the opinion we should move straight to the IP block. (nm) by
on 2014-11-04 15:00:00 UTC
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Seconded by
on 2014-11-04 15:42:00 UTC
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I'm not sure I have the right to weigh in when I haven't really been participating in the board for months.
However, It seems like he isn't going to leave willingly, regardless of what he says. It seems, to me at least, that he is repeating the problems he was having on the irc chat. Since it took an enforced ban to get him to stop there, it stands to reason that he would need one here as well. -
I am leaving voluntarily (and for a decade at that) (nm) by
on 2014-11-04 09:21:00 UTC
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My two cents. by
on 2014-11-04 11:11:00 UTC
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This might be foolish of me to reply to this fracas but I think this needs to be said. First, using ones immaturity is not really an excuse for ones actions. I know that younger people, and older for that matter, can be rather foolish but there is a cut-off point and from what I saw you passed it. Second, time does not cure immaturity if it did we wouldn't have some of the problems that are around today. Now, I know many people have many definitions of maturity but in my eyes to truly mature one has to constantly reflect on ones actions past, present and future. All things considered in ten years time this whole thing might repeat itself leading us nowhere. Basically what I am saying is examine your actions and think whether you were in the right or wrong.
I am going to apologize in advance if this just causes more problems and if I come off as insulting since it is not my intent. I just felt I needed to chime in since I rather strongly dislike when something like immaturity is used as an excuse for terrible actions. -
Ekyl, I'm sorry. I won't flame again, ever. (nm) by
on 2014-11-04 00:32:00 UTC
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Even if I believed you, it's too little too late. (nm) by
on 2014-11-04 01:40:00 UTC
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Do you want me to leave? that can be arranged by
on 2014-11-02 02:06:00 UTC
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Look, the last time I asked someone to beta anything for me, they said the entire thing sucked when it clearly did not. Ekyl was NOT doing a job for me while complaining that starhunter was "Unfocussed". that was borderline flaming.
You should know how I respond to that kind of stuff. back off or face the suethor rage.
No, I was not looking for hS to beta my work. (not after THAT thread)
Look, I acknowledge the beta is doing a job for me, but most of the time, it's been a bad job. you would get angry at a painter who painted your house the wrong color, would you? same applies to betas.
Also, I DID NOT rage against my dad's cousin or the people who beta'd my persona fic. -
7.65 is lying about me in this post. (nm) by
on 2014-11-02 13:26:00 UTC
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Are you going to stop flaming me? by
on 2014-11-02 14:05:00 UTC
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Cause seriously, you're being just as immature as I was with hS, so stop. really.
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Nope! by
on 2014-11-02 06:02:00 UTC
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I want you to acknowledge that your behavior towards several people has been wrong, and make some sign that you're planning on changing this behavior in the future, rather than just handwaving it as though immaturity was some immutable character trait, like blood type or eye color.
A beta telling you that a story or 'verse is "unfocused" is not borderline flaming. It's actually exactly what a beta should be telling you, and I have to admit I have no sympathy here; that is literally the exact same word that was used, in person, about a piece of writing I asked a professor to look at yesterday. Like... word for word. It's a very, very helpful criticism, if blunt - it tells you "I need to be more clear about the central plot of this story."
Now: You should know how I respond to that kind of stuff. back off or face the suethor rage.
This reads like a threat, and on top of that, it is the exact thing we tend to cite as reasons to PPC a fanfic. The difference between a chronic badfic author and a growing author is their response to concrit: "That's a borderline flame, how dare you," versus "I think I see what you mean, but can you be more specific?"
I'm glad you haven't raged against people who have beta'd your persona fic. Please take that attitude and apply it here, as well. -
To note: by
on 2014-11-02 06:02:00 UTC
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Ekyl does not even know how to read a GDD (yeah, stupid, but I was desperate), but his game designer friend (obviously) does, and did not say it was unfocused. besides, to make it focused in Ekyl's eyes would have turned the game into a boring, one-trick, CoD-in-space slog.
And no, it had nothing to do with the plot. it had more to do with a combination of genres that he said was unfocused. A: how can genre combinations be unfocused? and B: other games have done the exact same type of genre combinations and were not unfocused by their very design.
JS highly praised the characters though, but that's beyond the point.
Plus the people who beta'd my persona fic did not say "This essential part of your story sax ballz and needs to change or else the whole thing will sux ballz" or some embellished variation. they all target an essential part of the concept and want it changed because whatever. I got criticism, but the helpful kind that did not do any of the above. he just bluntly told me "It's too fast." and I fixed it, no problem. -
YOU are flaming, not the betas. by
on 2014-11-03 07:02:00 UTC
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First of all, the beta appears to be telling you about the PLOT, not the gameplay, coding, etc. Therefore, bringing stuff like this into the conversation is not good, and essentially amounts to saying "look at stupid Ekyl. If I had a choice, I wouldn't have let him beta me." Also, why are bringing a persona fic into this, as well as JS' opinion. Look, please let go of your ego, apologise to everyone. You are flagrantly violating the Constitution.
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It was not about the plot by
on 2014-11-03 09:39:00 UTC
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He Doesn't even know the first thing about game genres or gameplay in general. All he did was complain and he stopped after I destroyed his argument. now, I suppose, he just wants to get back at me.
I'll stop when he stops. -
As I said, you are flaming, not him. (nm) by
on 2014-11-03 14:33:00 UTC
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I probably find that last statement a little too amusing. by
on 2014-11-03 12:03:00 UTC
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Especially when you take into account that you're the one who started insulting Ekyl.
7.65, you need to stop your insults and apologize. You've violated the Constitution on multiple instances and in multiple ways as Miah so kindly pointed out, and everyone is getting sick of it.
Remember zdimensia back in September? If you keep up this behavior, the same thing's going to happen to you.
Knock. It. Off. -
How many times do I have to say that he insulted me? by
on 2014-11-03 12:28:00 UTC
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Off the board, he started it. I just used him as an example of how not to be a beta reader. THEN, he started insulting ME.
Ekyl is a bully. how will I know he will stop insulting me if I stop, because last time, he hit me while I was down. -
I'm finding this whole thing slightly horrifying. by
on 2014-11-03 12:41:00 UTC
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Imagine if a newbie came to the Board and saw these two giant threads that basically amount to 7.65x54R insulting us, borderline flaming us, and logical Boarders making arguments. Then the cycle repeats again.
I'm sorry, 7.65x54R, but I'm really not on your side here. You're not following the Constitution, and you've downright ignored all the people who tried to tell you what you did wrong. I don't even think an apology would do much good here. It's spiralling downwards into a flame war. No one wants that.
I know it's not my place to decide this, but I think a ban would be appropriate.
~Kitty -
Fine. I'll stop (nm) by
on 2014-11-03 13:00:00 UTC
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And this one. by
on 2014-11-02 13:32:00 UTC
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Beta for 7.65x54R and in return for your efforts you will receive nothing but insults, verbal abuse, belligerence and attempts to guilt trip you into not giving him even the tiniest hint of criticism. I declined further services to him, I will admit, and did admit I knew someone more qualified to speak on the matter of game design, but only after I was very patient with him and attempted to help to the best of my ability, especially with sharpening up his writing. Apparently he will also attempt to publicly tarnish your name. I do not feel this is something any member of this community should be made to deal with, so after he's twice lied about me in posts I felt compelled to warn the rest of the Board about what betaing for him is like. Do not agree to look at his work.
"You should know how I respond to that kind of stuff. back off or face the suethor rage."
That is exactly what he's saying. -
Last time I remember, flaming was against the rules. by
on 2014-11-02 13:52:00 UTC
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That's out of your experience. I did not insult James shields or the person who beta'd my persona fic (And yes, they did give me criticism, but not in the "rant for hours on end about how stupid this is" way)
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It is. And this is very much within my experience. by
on 2014-11-02 13:53:00 UTC
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When someone gives you criticism, you either ignore or insult them. It's hard to be someone's beta when they won't let you do your job.
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I let them do their job by
on 2014-11-02 13:56:00 UTC
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I did NOT ignore the criticism that the beta for my persona fic offered me. you insulted me by ranting on how you thought starhunter was stupid, right back at you.
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Not only are you insulting me, you are lying. by
on 2014-11-02 14:17:00 UTC
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You are deliberately misrepresenting what I say to make me look worse, and I agree with SeaTurtle that your rudeness towards members of this community is almost mind-boggling. Do you want to see what it looks like when I do decide to flame? Because I'm tired enough of this I'd be glad to arrange it.
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Uhh..no by
on 2014-11-02 14:28:00 UTC
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Who's the rude one here? all you did was complain about how you thought starhunter was unfocused when I asked you to beta, and then, now, you're insulting me because all I did was tell other people about how rude you were.
You want to see my flamer side too? hint: If I can think of disturbing acts of sexual violence on a whim when perfectly calm, do you really want to see what I think of when angry? -
Keep this PG-13! (nm) by
on 2014-11-03 07:05:00 UTC
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Halt. by
on 2014-11-02 14:32:00 UTC
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I have a huge problem with your last sentence. We do not want to see your "flamer side". This is not a "I'm more badass than you" competition.
Furthermore, the Board is not the place for this kind of drame. If you wish to continue this, please take it up with Ekyl privately instead of staging an internet fight on this Board. -
Then you should also have a problem with... by
on 2014-11-02 14:35:00 UTC
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His threat to flame me
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He was making a point. by
on 2014-11-02 14:40:00 UTC
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Not a threat. Basically saying he's so fed up he's willing to start flaming because courtesy isn't getting him anywhere.
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That's enough. by
on 2014-11-02 14:31:00 UTC
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7.65, you need to knock it off. Your behavior has been totally unacceptable and nobody needs to tolerate it. What you're doing is basically pointing fingers and whining because you didn't get glowing praise.
It needs to stop. Now. -
tell Ekyl that by
on 2014-11-02 14:32:00 UTC
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His behavior is also intolerable.
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Ehem. by
on 2014-11-02 20:20:00 UTC
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(we know we're probably wasting our breath or this post or whatever, but in the interest of good faith, we will try.)
Rifle Calibre Guy - "he's also bad" is not an excuse for bad behaviour, which you've shown here in spades. You've accused Ekyl of bad behaviour while - as far as we've seen - they haven't shown anything of that sort, flipped multiple people off and threw a hissy fit unbecoming of a mature person. That's the sort of behaviour that gets you detention in school, fired from your job or a harsh reprimand in the army (at the very least; at worse, you could get a disciplinary hearing for insubordination). Basically - not the sort of behaviour people tend to tolerate.
If you have a problem with Ekyl, bring it up in a polite, cultured manner. Otherwise people will tell you to mind your manners and/or ignore you. -
There is a huge difference... by
on 2014-11-02 14:11:00 UTC
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...between thinking that an idea doesn't work and thinking that the person who drafted said idea is terrible for bringing it up.
From what I have seen, everyone's comments to you definitely fall under the first category, which is concrit.
The second category-- well, that's flaming. -
How is ranting for multiple posts and paragraphs not flaming by
on 2014-11-02 14:15:00 UTC
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seriously, all Ekyl did during that email was complain. "This is unfocussed, that sucks, etc. etc. etc."
Plus, he could have just told me in a civil manner that "x does not work" like my dad's cousin. -
Because it's not by
on 2014-11-02 15:24:00 UTC
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Giving feedback on a piece of writing, even if it's hard, even if it stings, does not constitute flaming and never have. Flaming is when somebody go after the author and say that THEY are awful and that THEY should never write again.
If you can't tell the difference, then I honestly can't see what you're even doing in the PPC, unless you consider us a society of flamers and want to join for that reason. -
Also my dad's cousin went on for several paragraphs... by
on 2014-11-02 14:09:00 UTC
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But did not insult me. That was actual concrit, not the flames-barely-disguised-as-concrit that Ekyl and Farla used to insult my work.
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Cool your jets. by
on 2014-11-02 14:15:00 UTC
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Ekyl offered you assistance for which you have been extremely ungrateful. You said in the other thread that you take any criticism to be flames, and yet here you go, saying that Ekyl was outright being rude. Concrit is not flaming. You need to learn the difference or nobody's going to want to beta for you.
Seriously, you're being so rude it makes my head spin. -
He was being rude. Very rude. by
on 2014-11-02 14:20:00 UTC
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Would you be grateful for someone who told you your entire story sucked for no reason other than he's never seen this kind of genre combination before? yeah, I thought so, especially if it was not in a civil manner. cause seriously, Ekyl was NOT being civil. he was ranting about how some aspect of the concept was horrible by it's very design and I couldn't find any way to change those because A: I did not see those as bad, even in retrospect, and B: that would completely change an essential part of the concept for no other reason than "Some rude anonymous person off the internet said so"
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And oh yeah by
on 2014-11-02 15:26:00 UTC
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The thing is, a beta's concrit constitutes advice, not a binding arbitration. You don't have to do anything they suggest, but you do have to acknowledged that YOU asked for suggestions. Ekyl was using their own time helping you without asking for anything in return. Even if you thought everything they said was complete and other nonsense, the right thing to do would have been to thank them for their time and effort and find another beta. Not to complain about them on the board.
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I just used his rant as an example by
on 2014-11-03 10:01:00 UTC
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I meant no ill will to him until he started insulting me.
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Ekyl, your side, please. by
on 2014-11-02 14:23:00 UTC
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Is there a copy of what both sides said, like emailed documents or in GDocs comments?
Because I'm sorry, 7.65, but considering your blowup at hS earlier, I'm inclined to believe Ekyl. Still, might as well get both sides to the story. -
Is there an email address of yours I can contact? (nm) by
on 2014-11-02 14:29:00 UTC
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Yeah. by
on 2014-11-02 14:32:00 UTC
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It's artemis.hunt@att.net.
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Thanks, I'll send you stuff soon! by
on 2014-11-02 14:35:00 UTC
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While it was probably inevitable once I started talking in this thread, carrying the drama into the Board wasn't my intent per se - however, I felt I needed to address falsehoods attributed to me in this thread, as well as to warn Board members about my experience.
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I also feel the need to say Ekyl is a bully by
on 2014-11-03 09:51:00 UTC
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Let me get this straight:
I used your ranting as an example of bad beta'ing, and you try to defend it?! for what reason? do you hate the concept that much? or do you want to get back at me for invalidating your argument as to how my game was unfocused?
You know what?! none of this would have happened if you were at least civil to me. Seriously, all you did was complain when you first saw the GDD and the concept in general. how am I being rude here when you hated on my game for no reason or you claim I'm flaming you while YOU'RE the one slinging false accusations (I did not get angry at the betas at FF, James Shields, or my dad's cousin, who, by the way, WAS civil when he pointed out the problems with that particular idea).
You are a complete, utter bully, so stop, and I will. -
The problem is... by
on 2014-11-03 16:48:00 UTC
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We haven't seen any examples of this behavior you claim. If you had copies of the comments in question, then we would be more inclined to believe you. From what I have seen in this thread, Ekyl has been perfectly reasonable. Although I don't tend to post much, I do lurk quite a bit, and this situation shouldn't have happened in the first place. It just seems so... sudden. It's not quite as bad as the issue with zdimensia, but it's starting to get close. Don't let this spill over.
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You want comments? by
on 2014-11-04 03:24:00 UTC
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So my first thought is that this project might be a bit overambitious. I'm not sure this is something the kinds of studios that make XBOX One or PS4 games would pick up - but then, Hotline Miami is going to be on at least the PS3, so anything can happen I suppose. This isn't just about distribution, though, but the fact that your game feels like it's trying to do far too many things at once - you're familiar with the idea of too many cooks working on a soup? An open world FPS RPG dating sim that tries to be Halo and Higurashi at the same time is going to lack any real focus and at best confuse your player - at worst it'll be an unplayable mess; I wouldn't call Halo low-tech either, all things considered. These are not all necessarily good tastes that go well together. And when you say "space you can explore", that's kind of a nothing field unless you mean the ability to go into outer space - which again, show me some damn focus in this thing. Also, TV Tropes has no idea what the hell deconstruction is, so don't use their definition of it in a professional game design document (and really, nobody's going to care about 1990s shonen anime - not everything has to be anime!). Lastly, I'm not sure you should be talking about art style, music, etc. in the present tense when the game does not currently exist.
Second: For the love of God, learn how to use capital letters! Tomorrow I'm going to go over this with a finer comb and point out to you where you need to sharpen up the grammar - I'm not saying this to be mean, vindictive, anything like that, but it looks unprofessional and if you give this to a studio or an agent with this presentation they'll laugh you out the of the room.
Third: Stop all the references to Stargazer unless you plan to submit both simultaneously or something. Nobody is going to have any clue what you're talking about - and none of them will care. Also, when you get to describing the gameplay it really comes off as Halo meets Skyrim meets Mass Effect - this is not something new, no matter how you try to spin it. I'm also not sure how you intend the branching paths to go re: choices, few games manage to do this right so you might want to tread carefully. You might want to be careful about throwing around terms only mentioned later in the document, too - either move your setting info up or rephrase. Magnums and pistols seem unnecessary as different weapon classes, as well - pick one.
Fourthly: The PC waking up to start the game is cliché, do something else. Your game design document probably doesn't need a whole lot of info on plot, either, though I should stress that's the gut feeling of someone who's never built a game from scratch before. I'd have to talk to my game designer friend to get into much more detail than these initial feelings of mine.
OR:
We're not talking about the plot here, that is in how you describe the gameplay (in fact, it's questionable how relevant plot is at all at this stage, because your audience right now isn't the player - it's the studio and the tired programmer who will be having to put this thing together at 3 AM). Those are very different types of game and thus won't necessarily work as well all mashed together. You specifically asked me to read this over and give you my honest opinion, going "well my brain works differently from yours so whatever" is defeating the entire purpose of the exercise.
As for how it's unfocussed, I thought I was quite clear about that. Action RPGs (think Skyrim or Mass Effect), first person shooters and visual novels all play very differently, it's inherent to the design of each type of game. Even within the same genre you need to have some kind of concrete idea of what the player can do - while they are both action RPGs, Mass Effect and Skyrim are both different in how play unfolds and what situations they're designed around handling, and just because you can go from first to third person and back in Skyrim doesn't mean it would be a good FPS (compare shooting a bow in Skyrim to say, firing your rifle in one of the eight billion military FPSes out there already - they feel and operate quite differently due to the design philosophy behind both games). To be fair I'm almost certain there are some FPSes where you can switch from first to second person (ARMA lets you do that, I know), but you still need to be careful not to load the player down with too much stuff, or to make switches in gameplay too jarring. A shooter/RPG suddenly turning into a dating sim or visual novel is not a smooth transition, and those types of games are trying to do very different things in the end.
(Also, on the note of clutter, you have too many weapon types all taking up the same space. No player is going to want to waste time micromanaging whether they're using a submachine gun or a PDW, or a sniper rifle or marksman rifle. Streamline it.)
or finally:
Quite frankly, if you're going to argue so much with everybody who offers even the slightest bit of criticism, nobody is going to want to work with you long enough to buy your concept, no matter how polished. I'm trying to help you but remember that you came to me asking for me to look this over and critique it - for free, I must add. I think the issue in re: dating sims is the examples you give are too widespread to illustrate a clear design, and also imply elements that don't mix well together. I should also caution you that Bioware kind of has the "action RPG with dialogue trees and branching plots" market covered, though they're by no means the only people doing it. There is more between "bizarre flop" and "soulless cash grab" than you seem to think, but keep in mind that "Mass Effect with a few other bits stuck on" won't exactly knock people's socks off.
(Also, keep in mind that a good melee engine and a good shooting one are fairly different animals - I'd think about which aspect of combat you want to prioritise, and keep in mind a lot of shooters have some melee mechanics already. Not in a "this has been done" sense but in a "you probably don't need to do the sudden switch in perspectives".)
Sorry if you did not find these insulting, but he was basically complaining about how the game wouldn't work the way I envisioned it. I would have to completely butcher the concept to make it work in his eyes, so why should I do what he says if all he's saying is "Do as I say or fail miserably" -
ThatÂ’s not flaming by
on 2014-11-04 09:26:00 UTC
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I mostly don’t know what Ekyl is talking about, not being a gamer at all, but I’m quite certain I couldn’t be much more polite if I talked about something I know.
In a previous post you said “Ekyl does not even know how to read a GDD ”. This may or may not be true, I can’t judge. If it is true, he spent a lot of time and effort on an attempt to help you in a field where he lacks the necessary expertise. Since it didn’t help, this may have been wasting your time, but it certainly wasn’t an attempt to flame and bully you.
To answer your question: If you, after sincerely considering the response, feel certain that your beta readers are wrong, you should not do what they are saying. The appropriate reaction would be to say “Thanks for your time, I appreciate the effort, although it didn’t help because our brains work too differently”, and then asked for other opinions. A still acceptable, although not polite reaction would be to ignore your betas and ask for other opinions. Complaining on the board about “flaming” and “bullying” when evidently none of these really happened was really inappropriate.
HG -
Dude, this is concrit. by
on 2014-11-04 09:08:00 UTC
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As a videogame enthusiast who tried making some stuff (I toyed around with RPGMaker 2000 and FPS Creator, but in the end I didn't manage to make a playable gane) and playing around with in-game editors like FarCry's Sandbox myself, this sounds good advice (And I don't see anything that can be considered an insult). While I don't agree with all that Ekyl said (for example, SMGs and PDWs taking the same slot is fine to me, as they're both compact rapid fire weapons), I don't see any flaming here and... well, most games that try to achieve too much like yours seems to be end up being outright terrible.
DOn't get me wrong here, I would love to play a game with all the things you mentioned inside, I'm not against multigenre games - I would love, for example, a anime-style modern day MMORPG in which you can do anything from going to battle with any weapon you like, be it guns or swords or magic, go car racing, manage a home, even be a farmer if you want. (And it to be an huge crossover between all the series I like, obviously)
But the point is, there's no way a game engine is going to be able to do all that stuff needed for either game idea properly today. It's more or less the reason why in FPS or TPS action games the driving is usually subpar or even terrible.
As impossible as it may seem, Ekyl was actually trying to make your game more appealing to developers. You can have the best game idea of the world in you mind, but if it's so complex that it would cost billions to make it... I don't think many developers would be interested.
That said, your attack on Ekyl was completely unjustified, and your behaviour on the IRC just inacceptable. You were given several chances to understand and apologize, but now I'm leaning towards a ban. -
OK, fine, I'm sorry by
on 2014-11-04 09:19:00 UTC
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I'm leaning towards just plain leaving. saves you the trouble.
see you in 10 years, unless you don't want me back. -
Yeah, this is concrit. by
on 2014-11-04 04:33:00 UTC
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Sometimes people will tell you things you don't want to hear. That does not make them bullies or flamers.
~Neshomeh -
This kind of blunt honesty is what I like. by
on 2014-11-04 04:20:00 UTC
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When Hieronymus Graubart beta'd the first draft of my next mission, he pointed out all the bits that didn't work. There was no tiptoeing around it- he told me what did and didn't fit and I listened. It's why said mission isn't out yet. I want to make it better, and I needed that blunt honesty to see that the mission, written out of sheer frustration at a badfic, was definitely not the best I could have done.
The Beta is there for a reason, you know. The ones who just shower you with praise don't give you ideas as to how you can make your work go from 'good' to 'excellent'.
Quite frankly, I'd kill for more Betas like him and Ekyl. -
I am amazed and astounded by
on 2014-11-04 03:41:00 UTC
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Amazed and astounded that you believe this is flaming, that is. Ekyl gave you some really good insight here. Everything that I can see falls squarely under the heading of concrit and was pretty detailed.
This is the kind of feedback that many of us dream of getting from someone who is looking at our work. I honestly have no idea what you are complaining about.
-Phobos -
From you, that's a heck of a compliment. My thanks. (nm) by
on 2014-11-04 03:46:00 UTC
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How soon is 'soon'? by
on 2014-11-02 23:33:00 UTC
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Because I keep checking my email and haven't got anything yet. I'm just making sure something isn't not getting through.
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Just letting you know I sent it a bit ago. (nm) by
on 2014-11-03 05:44:00 UTC
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Been a bit busy, sorry! It'll be in before the night's done. (nm by
on 2014-11-03 00:02:00 UTC
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Whoops, I quoted the wrong thing. by
on 2014-11-02 13:38:00 UTC
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I meant to quote SeaTurtle's responses, here:
"Are you saying that you only accept positive comments on your work?"
[...]
"Are you saying we should tiptoe around each and every of your sensibilities when giving you feedback on something? Please clarify." -
Please forgive my impertinence. by
on 2014-11-02 02:52:00 UTC
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Are you saying that you only accept positive comments on your work?
That outlook just defeats the entire point of a beta. These people provide an outsider's look on your piece. Their point of view might show you something you've overlooked or got wrong. They are giving some of their free time to provide a free service for you. Dismissing all of their less-than-positive comments as "flaming" is, in my eyes, the height of disrespect.
"you would get angry at a painter who painted your house the wrong color, would you?"
Hey. A beta is like if you're designing something (let's say a building, for example) and an architect takes a look at your blueprints and says "I like this, this, and this, but there's a problem here, here, and here. You should fix these things to make your building stable". Your painter analogy implies that the only thing you want from a beta reader is praise for your work.
"You should know how I respond to that kind of stuff. back off or face the suethor rage."
Are you saying we should tiptoe around each and every of your sensibilities when giving you feedback on something? Please clarify.