The logs. If you're creeped out by Zerg or similar things, you might not want to click, since they show up at one point. I've included plenty of context (possibly a bit too much).

Sorry about not posting screenshots, but my machine wasn't cooperating. You can search the chat for phrases from this to check me if you want. Also, the formatting's a bit wonky because I'm preserving the text as it appeared in the chat.

(And if you don't want to read all that, the fic in question. Rated T, but warns for gore. RWBY/Starcraft)

[Stamps with the Virtual Stamp of Approval]

Article 11, question 2: That's a tough one, yeah. While lots of apologies builds goodwill, which is nice, if the person being accused really hasn't done anything wrong it seems rather twisted to expect them to apologize. Well, perhaps an "I'm sorry for the misunderstanding" would be courteous, but it seems like a bit more than basic politeness. Something like Level Two politeness, or maybe even Level Three. And advanced levels of politeness are hard, especially if you've just been arguing (and if you're a teenage nerd with still-developing social skills, as I believe many of us are), and seem like a lot to require within Da Rules. Maybe we should put together an article on Politeness (like the article I suggested on Apologies), or something.

Minor quibbles:

Article 9: Does "sooner" really mean "with a clear head"? Don't people often say things they regret in the heat of the moment? I think this section would be clearer without the references to "sooner" and "later," just referring to the person's level of upset-ness, or else clarify. . . or am I being silly?

Article 11: In case of rule breaking, what should be invoked? Did you leave out a word? Or did you mean that this article may be invoked in case of rule-breaking. . . Yeah, you did, didn't you. Maybe put this sentence first, or tweak the phrasing.

Article 15: I like the idea of introducing some levity, but this shows a serious lack of knowledge as regards the Hamlet fandom (maybe fandom isn't the right word. Body of tradition? Anyway). The idea of a recording of a mime performing Hamlet isn't that funny, because the play has an intrinsic association with mime. It started in Shakespeare's time, when plays sometimes began with a "dumb show" -- a shortened, mimed version of the whole play. Hamlet's play-within-a-play has one, so the play itself tends to get given one too, spawning many school projects. . . of varying quality (student productions are the Shakespeare fandom's version of fanfic; most of them are terrible)(Not that we don't have fanfic, also of varying quality). Basically, there's nothing unusual about a mime interpretation of Hamlet, and there are altogether too many recordings in this genre.

--Key protects her fandoms, even when the canon's probably taken near-irreparable damage

P.S. Speaking of Hamlet, this is a thing of joy.

Regarding 11/2. If I understand this properly it seems to suggest that a person who is accused of wrongdoing, but did not actually engage in wrongdoing they should apologize?

I'll go into this a bit later to offer my full opinion, I just don't have the time to fully dig into it yet.

And kind of important, since no changes can be made without people saying they want them.

It's also really great if people say they DON'T want changes, and if not, why.

BTW, have we said anywhere that you implicitly agree to abide by the Constitution by participating in PPC spaces? I may've brought this up before, but I forget what happened.

~Neshomeh

I think it's much more clear and progresses easily from one point to the next. The bases seem to be pretty well covered.

On your questions:

1. I think there's a difference between "I disagree with you and my opinion hasn't changed, but I'm sorry for offending you anyway [because I care about your feelings]" and "I'm sorry you were offended even though I'm totally still in the right [therefore you're stupid for feeling that way]." The former should be acceptable while the latter is not. But yeah, it is a fairly tricky matter of word order and tone, which has also given us no end of trouble. I think I said something at some point to the effect that a decent apology should be for the hurt/offense given, because the point is to show that you respect the other person and didn't actually want to hurt them. It also helps to say that you'll try to avoid doing/saying whatever it was in the future, 'cuz it shows you understand the problem and do want to get along. Maybe something like that could go in as a sub-clause of Proposed Article 11? Though I don't think it would be wise to dictate "All apologies must take this exact form or else," so... hrm. Maybe someone else can solve this one.

2. I don't think there's anything wrong with both parties apologizing for a misunderstanding. It takes two, after all, and if everybody cares enough about everybody else's feelings to say they're sorry for hurting them even if it was an accident, that's great. {= )

I think what we're looking for here is humility enough to accept that we can always be wrong and kindness enough to put the other person's feelings over our own. It's embarrassing to make a mistake, and being challenged or called on it can make us defensive and angry, but our feelings are not more important than everyone else's. We should help each other realize that making a mistake is not necessarily the end of the world, so we can let it go. This gets proportionally more difficult the more important the thing you're wrong about is to your identity, but there are only a few things that really ought to be that big a deal, I think, and they're pretty well covered in Proposed Articles 2 and 3.

I think I've strayed from the point of the question, though. My sense is that if someone has honestly done nothing wrong and someone else is jumping on them, that sort of thing usually gets nipped in the bud pretty quickly. It may not need clarification. But others may have other ideas.

~Neshomeh

I don't think we can fit in pestering up there, either, then. It's quite a different concept, and might needs its own article if we feel it's not covered enough by the various iterations of "be respectful" and "if you're told you're doing something wrong, knock it off."

I do think we could do with "how to tell someone off politely and constructively" and "what to do if you're being told off." It is necessary to be clear when a behavior is unwanted. We don't always like to be direct about it, but it should always be okay to say "Look, I don't want this attention. It makes me uncomfortable. Please stop." So, let's see...

New Article 7. If someone is doing something wrong, it is important to tell them clearly and calmly what the unwanted behavior is, why it is unwanted (i.e. how it violates the Constitution and/or is offensive), and that they are being asked to stop. Shouting or snapping at people does not usually help, so it is generally best to address the issue sooner, with a clear head, rather than later, with lots of built-up frustration and anger.

New Article 8. Everyone deserves an honest second chance – which means, initially, a chance to stop, explain, and/or apologise. This means that, if you believe that someone is engaged in any violation of the Constitution, but particularly Articles 1-3, it is critical to make sure they understand what they are doing wrong, so that they can make amends. Explain it to them yourself, or ask a third party to do so – but the key word is explain. Telling someone to shut up because their opinion is unwanted does not constitute a chance.

New Article 9. If someone or multiple someones have asked you to stop what you're doing, especially on the basis of the Constitution, you are expected to stop and apologize for giving offense. This also applies if you are told that your behavior is making someone uncomfortable: as per Article 3, you are expected to exercise respect for others, and this includes personal boundaries. It is always acceptable to explain yourself if you've made an honest mistake – we all do sometimes! – but please make sure that explaining why it happened once or twice doesn't turn into making excuses for why it keeps happening. In cases of persistent rule-breaking, [Current Article 10.5] may be invoked.

New Article 10. =Current Article 8.

New Article 11. =Current Article 9.

Etc.

How do those sound?

Possibly some of the other articles in Section 2 may need tweaking to avoid redundancy, but then again, a little redundancy may not be a bad thing.

~Neshomeh

P.S. Yes, I think so. {= D

For me, it evokes phrases like, "Do not pester people. We know, it's exciting that your favorite author is right there in the chat with you, but if they say you're creeping them out, back off," which I believe is exactly what we're aiming for.

--Key

The term "ducklinging" works in this regard (in which Lacksidacksical is following Oaken around like a duckling), and I think it's sufficiently whimsical for use in the Constitution.