Man, do I ever try to stay out of this mess, but I'm curious.

Subject: Man, do I ever try to stay out of this mess, but I'm curious.
Author: Zingenmir
Posted on: 2020-03-16 17:26:24 UTC

"We discussed my trying for permission under the same conditions that you imposed on them, which you yourself complained were unfair. But they feel that it is impossible and would only serve to anger people who won't understand what you asked of them."

Would you mind explaining what you mean by that? Specifically, this bit: "We discussed my trying for permission under the same conditions that you imposed on them." IIRC, there have been revisions to the Permission process since Zdimensia first put up a request, and possibly also since she did so as Bramandin (under which name she (they?) did actually get Permission after a couple tries, so...between that and the Boarders who've gotten Permission since, it's clearly not impossible to get Permission with the current or previous processes, assuming that's what's meant by the next sentence).

Also, while miscommunication can happen (and I vaguely remember there being some in Zdimensia's case--I think around different ideas for or uses of Permission prompts?) we're generally pretty open to answering questions about the Permission process and what exactly the PGs are looking for, given that we do want people to succeed. We've also had something like...five or more (I'm starting to think more, or else fiveish main ones with offshoots) lengthy conversations about whether and how the Permission process should be changed/adapted/simplified/standardized/made more accessible over the past seven years. While I'm sure there's more that could be done, and that there will eventually be even more discussions about it, the current version is a good few revisions away from being the first. There's been a lot of thought put into it, and I'm sure there will be more in the future. Heck, I've seen the topic surface as smaller discussions, such as the idea someone raised last year regarding Boarders without Permission potentially writing Intelligence reports. It's a more or less ongoing discussion, and has been one for years. I doubt it'll stop anytime soon, and I do expect it will eventually result in more revisions. The Permission process is not immutable.

PS: Just about all of the rest of what you've said has already been addressed many, many times by other people, and I have no interest in joining their ranks. I'm just curious to know what you meant in the bit I quoted, particularly the first sentence.

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A start to my Dragon Prince fanfiction. by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-14 19:56:32 UTC Writing Reply

I'd like a second opinion on if it's any good. The person who helped me says that it has potential.

On a boat on the river, the two princes rowed while Rayla sulked in the bow.

"Wow, I can't believe that worked," Callum said.

"I can't believe you're such a jerk," Rayla spat from beneath her hood.

"What?" Callum asked. "What's wrong?"

"You called me a bloodthirsty monster," Rayla said. "You have no idea how that feels."

"But I don't actually believe any of that," Callum said. "I was just trying to scare her. I thought she'd back down."

"Oh that went well" Ray.la turned to face him. "They tried to kill me."

Callum sighed. "I'm sorry. That's not what I meant to happen."

Rayla's retort was cut off by a screech coming from the sky. An angry flurry of brown feathers tried to claw at her face.

"No," Ezran shouted. "Leave her alone!"

The bird continued to attack Rayla as she huddled on the bottom of the boat to protect her face.

Ezran pulled a cape out of his satchel and threw it over the bird. "Stop that. Rayla's our friend. Why do you think she wants to hurt us?"

Once Ezran had adjusted the cape so the bird's head was free, it screeched.

Ezran frowned. "He says that he's dad, and that Viren used dark magic to switch his soul with Pip. He says that the elves killed his body."

"Ezran, this is no time for games," Callum said.

"It's not a game," Ezran insisted. I really can talk to animals and he says that he's dad."

"Don't listen to him, Rayla," Callum said. "I once asked him to prove it and he couldn't."

"I didn't know then that raccoons lie," Ezran said. "Ask me a question that only dad would know."

Callum shook his head.

Rayla had been quietly toying with the ribbon around her wrist. "The others got to the king. When assassins bind themselves to a mission, the ribbon won't come off until it's complete. I had two, but now I only have one."

Ezran listened to the bird making random notes. "He says that when he gave you the sketchbook, he hoped that you would see how good you are."

Callum's eyes widened. "That's what he said."

Give me back my hawk by SomeRandomPersonAccount on 2020-03-17 01:22:13 UTC Reply

I gave you the hawk as a welcome gift to this community, and I am very angry that you are one of Toopurple’s “friends”. And now here we are again. Just like how I took Squishy Squirrel’s walnut, I’m taking back my hawk. You do not deserve it after posing as a newbie, while your true intention was to work for Bram.

~SomeRandomPersonAccount
As someone who doesn't know the canon... by Cicada on 2020-03-16 04:59:17 UTC Reply

I'm finding the character interactions really compelling so far, there's a lot of quick-fire emotion that tells you a lot about how the characters generally behave- Reyza and Callum's first few lines tell me a lot about how they feel about their place in the world. However, after that I feel like you get a bit bogged down in exposition- the explanation of what the bird is telling the characters comes off as a bit mechanical, as does the information that the assassins have reached their target. I feel like you're moving quickly through the scene in order to get to an event you think will be compelling, but that detracts from the scene you're writing right now. Focusing more on the characters' reactions to what they're learning could help- not only what they're feeling, but what they want to do. Do they ponder spiriting the bird-king away, living in hiding to keep him safe, because they care about him? Do they immediately and impulsively start pelting the king with spells to try and restore his body? Do they despair of their mission, since the bird-king can no longer rule? Not knowing the characters, I don't have the answers to this, but you might, and that sort of thinking will give the scene more weight than just exposition. Adding the second bit of information could be really interesting because it throws the plans the characters might have been making into question. If the assassins have reached their target, do they believe what the bird is telling them? Do they pull a sword on the bird and demand that it stop lying, calmly note that the magic of the assassins has clearly been subverted through a loophole, eye the bird warily? I like all these ideas because they drive conflict, and conflict is interesting! The main thing I'd note is that I think this scene just needs more emotion put into it. Remember that there are no transitional or unimportant scenes- every scene is fun, and potentially full of conflict! I definitely think there's some potential here- the earlier parts of the scene are a good demonstration of character conflict that reveals the personalities of both characters and gives us information about what just happened without resorting to dry exposition. I look forward to reading more from you!

reply by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 12:43:14 UTC Reply

The first few lines are from the cartoon itself. My helper suggested that it was a good way to start a canon divergence.

I was told that people here have a problem with third person objective, but I don't want to pick a point-of-view character. I especially don't want to pick Ezran because then having him translate for the bird doesn't make sense. So how do I show more emotion without announcing how the characters feel?

Out of curiosity... by Neshomeh on 2020-03-16 14:56:42 UTC Reply

Who told you that we have a problem with third person objective, and why do they think that? 'Cause I've been thinking for a while that you remind me of someone, and now I'm wondering if it's due to association with that person.

~Neshomeh

Actually... by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 15:24:00 UTC Reply

They also told me that you were a bully who wouldn't listen. I don't want you talking to me unless you've mended your ways.
reply by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 15:06:19 UTC Reply

Their email is bramandintook@gmail.com and they emailed me on Friday offering to help. I took them up on the offer because Tomash hadn't responded.

I see. by Neshomeh on 2020-03-16 15:37:31 UTC Reply

Welp, that's exactly as I suspected, unfortunately. Bramandin (who has also gone by numerous other aliases at this point) is banned from this community, and bears a serious grudge against us, and has admitted to enjoying any opportunity to mess with us. On the off-chance you're not yet another sock-puppet or meat-puppet of hers, please take some time to review her history with us so you understand why we don't want to associate with her in any way, and then do us all (yourself included) a huge favor and cut ties, please. If you're going to serve as a way for Bramandin to force us to interact with her yet again, even indirectly, I expect that we will ban you, too, in accordance with our policy regarding sock-puppets and meat-puppets of Bramandin.

This constitutes a good-faith warning. Please take it seriously, but not personally.

~Neshomeh

I am aware of the highlights by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 15:49:07 UTC Reply

If you want to take it up over email, it is Erynn.Harrowhawk@gmail.com

But I believe that threats of banning is just to silence anyone who calls the administrators out for bullying. Banning someone for mentioning that the people who scowled at them were black? Not only is that being a wokescold, which in itself is a form of bigotry, but it is extremely petty. This is also taking into account how the group treated someone with learning differences.

We discussed my trying for permission under the same conditions that you imposed on them, which you yourself complained were unfair. But they feel that it is impossible and would only serve to anger people who won't understand what you asked of them.

Man, do I ever try to stay out of this mess, but I'm curious. by Zingenmir on 2020-03-16 17:26:24 UTC Reply

"We discussed my trying for permission under the same conditions that you imposed on them, which you yourself complained were unfair. But they feel that it is impossible and would only serve to anger people who won't understand what you asked of them."

Would you mind explaining what you mean by that? Specifically, this bit: "We discussed my trying for permission under the same conditions that you imposed on them." IIRC, there have been revisions to the Permission process since Zdimensia first put up a request, and possibly also since she did so as Bramandin (under which name she (they?) did actually get Permission after a couple tries, so...between that and the Boarders who've gotten Permission since, it's clearly not impossible to get Permission with the current or previous processes, assuming that's what's meant by the next sentence).

Also, while miscommunication can happen (and I vaguely remember there being some in Zdimensia's case--I think around different ideas for or uses of Permission prompts?) we're generally pretty open to answering questions about the Permission process and what exactly the PGs are looking for, given that we do want people to succeed. We've also had something like...five or more (I'm starting to think more, or else fiveish main ones with offshoots) lengthy conversations about whether and how the Permission process should be changed/adapted/simplified/standardized/made more accessible over the past seven years. While I'm sure there's more that could be done, and that there will eventually be even more discussions about it, the current version is a good few revisions away from being the first. There's been a lot of thought put into it, and I'm sure there will be more in the future. Heck, I've seen the topic surface as smaller discussions, such as the idea someone raised last year regarding Boarders without Permission potentially writing Intelligence reports. It's a more or less ongoing discussion, and has been one for years. I doubt it'll stop anytime soon, and I do expect it will eventually result in more revisions. The Permission process is not immutable.

~Z

PS: Just about all of the rest of what you've said has already been addressed many, many times by other people, and I have no interest in joining their ranks. I'm just curious to know what you meant in the bit I quoted, particularly the first sentence.

This is rushed. by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 17:56:29 UTC Reply

I am incredibly angry right now, so I'm just going to focus on this part. I think you addressed some of the problems by revising the permission process. I also lost the chat with Bram, so it would take time to dig out the actual links.

"Would you mind explaining what you mean by that? Specifically, this bit: "We discussed my trying for permission under the same conditions that you imposed on them." IIRC, there have been revisions to the Permission process since Zdimensia first put up a request, and possibly also since she did so as Bramandin (under which name she (they?) did actually get Permission after a couple tries, so...between that and the Boarders who've gotten Permission since, it's clearly not impossible to get Permission with the current or previous processes, assuming that's what's meant by the next sentence)."

The way I understand it, Bram had two teams. The first team, and the second team. Bram would eventually discover that the second team wouldn't work and they would break that into two teams, while also completely reworking the concept for one agent. Neshomeh's feedback was "You didn't use your mains" or something, which I would like an interpretation of what was actually meant. Bram tried many times to explain that they wanted to use their first team for the prompt, which was seemingly ignored, and behind their back Neshomeh actually wondered why Bram didn't disregard their instructions.

Another problem was that writing agents in the PPC setting was not allowed at all at the time. Neshomeh's advice to write the agents before they got to the PPC was rejected for good reason. Neshomeh's insistence that personalities don't change was not only wrong, but incredibly insulting.

Thanks for your response. by Zingenmir on 2020-03-16 19:03:30 UTC Reply

Unfortunately, it looks like pretty much every response I could give to yours would now necessitate going back to find exact posts and wording and so on if I want to be sure I have it right, and that sounds like a fairly stressful few hours, so I'm going to leave it at "there are nuances to all this (that I can't confidently state correctly without going back) and IIRC the bit about personalities was to do with that it should be possible to write and develop PPC characters to some extent outside of the PPC setting, because a well-rounded character is a well-rounded character."

This does leave me with one more question, though, which is actually more or less the same question with added context: you say you two were discussing your trying for Permission under the same conditions as Bramandin. This initially sounded strange because the process has changed; since it turns out you know it has, did you mean it was a hypothetical discussion? More like, "if you had to try for Permission under the same conditions I did, it would be impossible/you would fail because it's impossible" than "if you want Permission, you'll be going for it under the same conditions I did (and you'll fail because it's impossible)"?

~Z

PS: One reason why pretty much no one is eager to to reopen all this to any form of serious or less serious discussion is that it's already been gone over and gone over and gone over for years. This is why the wiki page gets linked as a fairly complete record of what's gone on; if you think the headings are biased, you can ignore them, but just about every major incident is linked. Zdimensia was banned; she came back as Bramandin, unbeknownst to most of us, got Permission, participated in the community, and when it eventually came out that she was a previously banned member, there was a discussion about how to proceed. As far as I remember, she was eventually banned a second time (I remember it taking ~half a year or more, but could be wrong) for new reasons, rather than purely because she'd been banned in the past. That's the ban being upheld at this point. She's come back under other new names since, several of which sparked still more discussions, attempts to hear her out (I'm pretty sure the gdoc where she was writing out her side of the story, or something similar, is linked either directly on the wiki page or in a relevant post which is itself linked there), and on and on. This is not a case of "there was one little misunderstanding, we banned her over it, and that's that, no one at the PPC is open to hearing her side and never has been." It's "she was banned once, perhaps partially due to misunderstandings, came back, got a second chance, was banned again, continued to return and sparked/participated in multiple discussions, and it eventually reached the point where it's become clear discussions/attempts at resolution of multiple sorts have not worked and are not working, and thus the ban is now upheld without response for everyone's sake." Believe me when I say we've been over this again and again for years. It's not healthy for anyone involved at this point; heck, this is probably the most personally involved I've ever gotten (2014-15 were busy times for me, and so I more or less missed Zdimensia, hadn't had much reason to interact with Bramandin before her identity as Zdimensia came out, and henceforth stayed pretty well out of the whole thing because I wasn't already involved and really didn't need more stress), and I've got a nice little bit of adrenaline going as I type. Other people have expressed worse feelings, including some who were more involved initially and some who have only been around a couple years. Bramandin herself has expressed some pretty bad reactions to interacting with this community. The general feeling here by now is that we've had all the discussions already, and done pretty much everything reasonable to attempt to resolve the situation, and even taken a few lessons from what happened. It's become clear that more discussions or attempts won't help at this point. Please, for everyone's sake, let's all move forward properly already.

And I think that's me done on any topic apart from the Permission bit. I don't mean any of the above as an attack on you or Bramandin, either, if it somehow comes across that way; I'm just trying to explain more of what's in play here, because I want you to understand that this is not a simple situation or one that was never really addressed/addressed only halfheartedly, and also just why the community is reacting the way it is.

Since you asked me not to talk to you, this is my last response and I won't email you. (nm) by Neshomeh on 2020-03-16 15:56:23 UTC Reply

You may respond to this. by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 16:05:20 UTC Reply

Does this mean that you are still a bully who won't listen? I'm appalled that Bramandintook's call for banning you was immediately dismissed. I gave you a chance to defend yourself.

Gods, Valar and all higher beings, here we go again... by Mirage Fontane on 2020-03-16 17:12:42 UTC Reply

I'm not going to interfere with this thread in any capacity (frankly, I myself would be reaching for the banhammer, but I know this is not my choice to make).

I just wanted to say that I'm sorry you had to deal with this bullfuvg again, Nesh. Many hugs to you.

Why... by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 17:28:28 UTC Reply

Why are you sheltering them from the consequences of their actions? That's probably why they never learned how to deal with people calling them out. They either didn't listen to my conditions or they admitted that they haven't changed.

And we have the admission! This is Bram, please ban. (nm) by Silv on 2020-03-16 17:30:46 UTC Reply

That's what it seems like to me too. I do believe it's Hammer Time. by Mirage Fontane on 2020-03-16 18:30:27 UTC Reply

(Lame joke, sorry - couldn't resist.)

Depends what's being referred to as "conditions". by Zingenmir on 2020-03-16 18:43:24 UTC Edited Reply

Bram's set a lot of them in the past, yes, but there's at least one thing in this thread that could be referred to as such, and is probably what was being referred to (this post about responding by email).

For now, I'm inclined to think this isn't Bram herself (slightly different writing style), though I could be wrong. Either way, this doesn't look like an admission to me.

~Z

Close. by Neshomeh on 2020-03-16 20:02:09 UTC Reply

I'm pretty sure she's referring to the condition that I not talk to her "unless [I've] mended [my] ways," which I am in fact choosing to disregard. The thing is, I've had zero interest in talking to ZBram or anyone associated with her for years now, and I'm confident that the record of my conduct otherwise speaks for itself. The suggestion that I'm admitting guilt to ZBram's accusations by choosing not to talk to "Erynn" is an incredibly transparent logical fallacy.

~Neshomeh

Whoops. by Zingenmir on 2020-03-16 20:54:55 UTC Reply

That's what I meant (and linked), but it looks like I forgot to change the description once I'd found the right link (I posted with that description and a note that I would link the post I was thinking of, and then apparently didn't think to describe it differently when I edited in the link).

~Z

And so far that "condition" has been met. by Silv on 2020-03-16 18:55:12 UTC Reply

As far as I can tell, Neshomeh has not responded since the reply where she said she wouldn't anymore. There was no need to bring it up again, much less specifically say "conditions" in the plural.

Didn't mean it hadn't been! by Zingenmir on 2020-03-16 19:09:21 UTC Reply

Just that the reference seemed to be to something in this thread, rather than a past post or other communication from definitely!Bram.

(As to why it was brought up, it looks like a possible dig? I don't know. It looks like I got my stressful hour after all. So much for that intention.)

~Z

I did no such thing. by Erynn.HarrowHawk on 2020-03-16 17:36:42 UTC Reply

If it is against the rules to call out people who have simply been here longer, add it to the constitution.

Probably going to regret this, but... by Cicada on 2020-03-16 19:14:26 UTC Reply

In case you're not Bram, allow me to clarify. It has nothing to do with calling out oldbies- since joining, I've seen multiple instances of much newer people disagreeing with the oldbies. The thing is that people have no interest in rehashing the ancient feud with Bram, specifically. Her behavior is unacceptable, and no amount of nitpicking the decisions of Boarders will make that okay. Especially since we've been deluged with people who claim to "just want to talk" for literally years now, who inevitably turn out to be Bram again.
And banned. by Delta Juliette on 2020-03-16 18:57:36 UTC Reply

I'm probably going to regret doing this, but: Erynn, if you want to be unbanned, you can email me at deltajuliette9@gmail.com with a brief summary of what Bram has done that has hurt this community since being banned. On the off chance you aren't Bram, I'm sorry to be throwing barriers in your way, but what you're doing right now looks an awful lot like things Bram has done before.

For convenience's sake, here's the wiki page where we've collected sources.