Semantical arguments

Subject: Semantical arguments
Author: Neshomeh
Posted on: 2012-04-04 17:16:00 UTC

There's an argument that any fanfiction written by a fangirl is a Fangirl Fanfiction, and therefore subject to translation by the FFT. Since that's entirely beside the point, though, you could always have them try it in desperation and see what happens just for the heck of it. *g*

Regarding concrit, perhaps we disagree on what concrit is. I do agree that gentle grammar suggestions would be useless here, but "The readability of your story would be vastly improved if you learned and followed the rules of the language in which you're trying to write it" is concrit in my book, and is something they might benefit from being told. If no one ever points out that nobody can understand their story like this, or that Google Translate is not a reliable or acceptable alternative to actual learning, how should they know?

If they do know and don't care, of course . . .

~Neshomeh

Reply Return to messages

Jump to this post's position in the thread ↴

The "legolas by laura" of Pirates of the Caribbean! by Araeph on 2012-04-02 04:59:00 UTC Reply

Hello, PPCers! My agents are...somehow...going to take on this fic, which is so bad that they're not quite sure yet how they're going to do it. The fic is called "Pirates of the Caribbean: The Shadow Islands part 1" (yes, there is unfortunately a part two, every bit as incomprehensible as its predecessor).

Here's the deal: I can't understand it.

I'm not talking about a plot that makes me go, "WTF?" It's not that the grammar is horrendous (well, okay, the grammar is horrendous, too). No, it is simply that I cannot understand what this story is trying to tell me. And yes, it is in English. I think.

Don't believe me? The first paragraph is excerpted below.

________________

Jack Sparrow is on his own all over the island. Gibs on his own since the night it was satisfied galumphed off. Jack was walking around by himself. He hoped that a small town on the island Sat Because the boat is the same night in the waves had disappeared. It took a while, but Jack found a small village in the middle of the island. Jack looked around a bit. When he came to a boat shop. He went inside. He gently a very small boat well enough to get rid of this island. He walked over to a man in the shop and asked what the boat cost. 20 gold coins. This is a bargain for such boats. Jack gave him the coins and took the boat. When he had turned the shop, the gentle man that Jack was a pirate. A little later, when Jack had left the city almost he heard horses hooves. He turned with a jerk back. He gently a storm of horses coming towards him. They do not already irritated Jack. And a half minutes later, Jack was in his boat back in prison. Suddenly he gently lie the keys in front of him. He looked at him and his fingers began to go there. But it failed when he tried with his foot. That did not work. So he looked good to him. The cleaner was lucky forget the broom. Jack grabbed the broom. He threaded the key to the broom. Moments later he opened the cage. When he was almost out suddenly stood before him a man with a sword right at him. Jack took his sword and pointed it at him. They fought with swords then jumped on a coach Jack. The man ran after him. Jack jumped on a horse and rode by. The man let him go. When Jack came to the sea took his boat into the water. Jack gently to him that the men already attracted storms. Jack jumped into the boat and sailed away just optijd. The man looked at him a moment with a familiar look and walked away. Jack converted ferry sailed one day at sea. All he did was look at the Black Pearl look into the bottle. A few hours later it started to rain. Jack said: Could it get worse? Then it started to thunderstorm hit Aruba again. Worse than it really can not be said Jack. Suddenly a wave reasachtige. Yes you can do it so Jack said. There goes my boat of 20 gold coins. The wave fell on Jack. The next day, Jack woke up on an island. He looked around and knew that he knew the island. He got up and walked on the beach. He thought the Black Pearl. And he looked over the beach. Suddenly he gently washed with something on a shelf. He ran there. He gently with the bottle in the Black Pearl. He was glad the Black Pearl was not perish! He picked it up. That board was fast a piece of his small boat. He looked around. There was nothing to do on this island. Jack gently that there is only a little green on this island. He went to it. Since he was a while docked at the island. He decided to build a hut alseerst and then a boat or the Black Pearl from the bottle to get. He walked through a small forest. He felt that someone was watching him. Suddenly there is someone jumped from the bushes. Jack shouted. He was kicked to the ground. The woman sat on him. Her eyes jumped fire. Jack recognized that blick. It was Angelica.
________________

So! My request is twofold. First...suggestions on how to deal with this monstrosity?

Second...anyone open to a dramatic reading of this badfic a la "legolas by laura"? I think it has potential.

Update! The author has messaged me. by Araeph on 2012-04-05 22:40:00 UTC Reply

Well, this is an interesting development.

The author contacted me via PM, and let me know the following:

-She acknowledges that the story is bad
-She has since stopped writing it
-She did use a translator for it
-She was 9 years old at the time of writing it*
-She has since taken much more English, and is writing better stories recently, which she hopes can now stay up
-She is now of an appropriate age to be on fanfiction.net

Well, that explains it. I'm going to ask her to take this particular story off, as it is not appropriate for fic written by a grade-schooler to be published on fanfiction.net. This will probably affect the idea of a dramatic reading, but I'm at least glad that she was receptive to feedback and is now improving her writing. (Her two recent stories are much better in quality, so even if they're still badfic, I'm willing to go easy on her because she's demonstrated a willingness and ability to improve her writing.)

* = which just proves that she didn't know enough English to read fanfiction.net's TOS. Note to authors: don't post fic to a place if you can't even read the rules! But I digress.

Ah... by HimochiIsAwesome on 2012-04-05 23:18:00 UTC Reply

It's good to see a badfic author who tries to get better at writing.
It's not good that they're a badfic writer, obviously, but the willingness to try harder is nice to see.

Seeing as this seems to be the current badfic!thread... by AnnaBee on 2012-04-03 19:45:00 UTC Reply

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7606959/1/SkyelockHolmesandtheCaseoftheBlueDiamond

...I think this is the most unpleasant crossover I have ever had the misfortune to read... at least, that doesn't include a Mary Sue or uncanonical relationships.

o.e
I think I get it... sorta. by Neshomeh on 2012-04-03 18:57:00 UTC Reply

It is possibly to divine roughly what's happening. Some of the syntax is bass-ackwards from standard English ("then jumped on a coach Jack"), but if you turn it around it works.

That doesn't explain "gently," though, or why the Black Pearl is in a bottle on a shelf. O.o

You might revive AW's Fangirl Fanfiction Translator™, perhaps?

~Neshomeh

The problem with that... by Araeph on 2012-04-04 04:58:00 UTC Reply

Is that the Fangirl Fanfiction Translator is meant to translate fangirlisms, e.g., squee, "OMGs", l33tspeak, multiple exclamation points in a row, etc. This fic isn't the result of a fangirl mentality...it's just plain bad.

You're right that I can get a rough idea of what's happening. Somewhat. The trouble is that around DTE agents, words tend to do exactly what they say, rather than what they roughly mean. (Should be fun for them, muahahahaha.)

On an unrelated note...this is one of those fics that I would point to as an example of where constructive criticism would be totally useless. The author clearly doesn't have enough of an understanding of the English language to be posting in that section in the first place. No amount of gentle grammar suggestions will fix the fact that she had to run her fic through a computer translator in order to post it.

Semantical arguments by Neshomeh on 2012-04-04 17:16:00 UTC Reply

There's an argument that any fanfiction written by a fangirl is a Fangirl Fanfiction, and therefore subject to translation by the FFT. Since that's entirely beside the point, though, you could always have them try it in desperation and see what happens just for the heck of it. *g*

Regarding concrit, perhaps we disagree on what concrit is. I do agree that gentle grammar suggestions would be useless here, but "The readability of your story would be vastly improved if you learned and followed the rules of the language in which you're trying to write it" is concrit in my book, and is something they might benefit from being told. If no one ever points out that nobody can understand their story like this, or that Google Translate is not a reliable or acceptable alternative to actual learning, how should they know?

If they do know and don't care, of course . . .

~Neshomeh

Oh no. You're giving me ideas. by Huinesoron on 2012-04-05 23:52:00 UTC Reply

I shall use my powers for evil, not good...

TOS1: Rambling Band... via German.

"It's happening again." Jay sat back on their console, which on a red flashing light. "Someone has to muck out the action continuum."

Acacia sighed. "Just what is so wrong with the canon that anyone who wants to break it?" she asked rhetorically. "What kind of world?"

"Lord of the Rings." Jay winced. "The massacre of Tolkien goes on. ... We have a Mary Sue."

Acacia sighed. "As a rule the case. What kind is it this time, and what she did to break it?"

"Human. Magically transported from the earth, together with her band. Of course she is joining the Fellowship ... and you will love this. She has enjoyed stringing along Boromir and Legolas with you." Jay looked sideways at her partner, in the hope that this message would not be too distracting.

Acacia sparkled. "Let me see it," she insisted, Jay pushed out of their seat without waiting for an answer. She began pressing buttons seemingly at random, staring at the screen, as if hoping to burn the words out of it by sheer force of the eye, then stood up. "Well, then let's go!"

Jay typed something on the console, so that an odd sums. A rather inconspicuous fibrillation appeared in the air, where they elongate the look of a door. "Come on, Acy," she said, with her friend dreaded nickname. "Let us hunt some of Sue."

'Someone has to muck out the action continuum! Let us hunt some of Sue!'

Can I make a motion that all PPC fics be translated before posting? Because that's hilarious.

hS

"Acacia sparkled." by Neshomeh on 2012-04-06 02:05:00 UTC Reply

That's...

Oh dear. {X D

Most of it seems to hold up pretty well, actually, but the things it gets wrong are special. ^_^

Hmm, I encounter a fair number of Nguyens and Trahns and so forth in my job. Let's try the same passage by way of Vietnamese:

"It has happened again." Jay returned from his console, showing a flashing red light. "Some people are mucking with the ongoing conspiracy."

Acacia sighed. "Exactly what is wrong with teaching that all people want to break it?" she asks rhetorically. "The world?"

"The Lord of the Rings." Jay frowned. "The massacre continued ....... Tolkein a Mary Sue."

Acacia sighed. "Normally, what species is the case this time she, and she is doing to break it?"

"People magically transported from the earth, along with her band she joined STUDY scholarships ......... and you will love this. She Boromir strung together while enjoying their with Legolas. "Jay looked to the side of his partner, hoping that this information will not be too worrisome.

Acacia glared. "Let me see this," she said, pushing Jay out of his seat without waiting for an answer. She began pressing buttons seemingly at random, staring at the screen as the hope to write it off by force from an absolute perspective, then stand up. "Well, let's go then!"

Jay exploit something on the console, causing a strange cry. Flicker rather unimpressive appearance in the air, participating in the emergence of a rectangular doorway. "Come on, Acy," she said, using her nickname frightened friend. "Let's hunt some Sue".

Jay is a guy, apparently. I like the bit about the "ongoing conspiracy," though!

~Neshomeh, who will probably now spend hours playing with Google Translate.

"Tolkien a Mary Sue"? Bwahaha! by Araeph on 2012-04-06 04:44:00 UTC Reply

Okay, that settles it. I'll have to explore this question some more.

Hehehe... by AnnaBee on 2012-04-06 15:26:00 UTC Reply

I can see it now... someone writes a sparkling Tolkien-Sue. The PPC is thrown into CHAOS. CHAOS, I tell you. Because everyone wants to KILL IT.

Or maybe the Tolkien-Sue has been acting as all these Suethor's muses?

Well... by Neshomeh on 2012-04-06 15:40:00 UTC Reply

Tolkien did create the elves as ideal beings, so you might have something there. {X D

~Neshomeh, a little terrified now.

O3O by AnnaBee on 2012-04-06 16:24:00 UTC Reply

Oh, dear...

Maybe THAT'S how the PPC was formed! It started as the Inklings, and then Tolkien schismed off, forming the EPC or whatever it's called! O.O

You think that's bad... by Araeph on 2012-04-06 00:58:00 UTC Reply

Trying doing it with poetry.

I remember translating "The Midnight Ride of Paul Revere" from Spanish and back. Oh, it was thing of beauty. Or at least, a thing of hilarity.

You are a cruel person. by Huinesoron on 2012-04-06 01:20:00 UTC Reply

To the west of the sun
Flowers in spring
Perhaps the sight of trees, and the hidden spiral
Finch and funny song
Or maybe the night is clear
And swaying beeches bear in mind
White spirit in all parts of
Branches of the hair.

Tolkien at his finest?

hS

Look like another sub-genre for the PPC Songbook! by Araeph on 2012-04-06 01:28:00 UTC Reply

Seriously, we should have a Bad Translation Songfic Contest and put the winners in...the PPC anti-Songbook? Or something.

Hey, if we need more community threads...

Sounds like fun! by Huinesoron on 2012-04-06 02:32:00 UTC Reply

If you can think of a way to write the rules, I say you should do it.

And yes, I did say 'you'. :P

hS

Ooh, I love a good semantics debate! by Araeph on 2012-04-04 18:24:00 UTC Reply

There's an argument that any fanfiction written by a fangirl is a Fangirl Fanfiction, and therefore subject to translation by the FFT. Since that's entirely beside the point, though, you could always have them try it in desperation and see what happens just for the heck of it. *g*

Hmm, you might be on to something, there.

You're right; I think we do disagree on definitions of concrit. For me, concrit is only possible when I can make a suggestion that would improve the story as written. In other words, at the moment of my writing the concrit, the author must actually have the power to make her story more readable. In this case, I would argue that she does not.

If I took your example and told the author to learn and follow the rules of the language in which she's trying to write, could she do anything to apply that suggestion to this story in the next, say, two weeks or so? Not really. She would need a few more years of English classes and much more practice writing stories at home before even attempting to publish something online in English. And even if she were to do so, the delay and development in her own writing would mean that Attempt #2 would be a completely different story from Attempt #1. The other option, posting the fic in her own language, would have a different story ID, a different syntactical structure...again, it would be a different story altogether. (I'm in favor of the latter.)

Concrit, in my opinion, has to do with addressing the contents and merit of a story, not questioning whether it belongs in this section of fanfiction.net in the first place. I would apply the same line of thought to, say, an RPF that showed up on the Pit, or a piece of original fiction "inspired" by Pirates of the Caribbean, however well written it was. With this fic, my trying to give constructive criticism would go something like this: "Your first sentence is wrong, and here's why. Your second sentence is wrong, and here's why. Your third sentence...is this even a sentence?!" Not helpful to either us or the author, since she wouldn't know how to make an improvement.

If no one ever points out that nobody can understand their story like this, or that Google Translate is not a reliable or acceptable alternative to actual learning, how should they know?

...Common sense? :P

I can, of course, review her story, asking her to remove the fic or post it in her own language. I can also point out the pitfalls of using a translator. To me, though, that's not constructive criticism; it's just housework for the fandom and fanfiction.net.

Hope that makes sense!

~Araeph

Yeah, that makes sense. by Neshomeh on 2012-04-04 20:01:00 UTC Reply

Maybe it's an issue of defining concrit in terms of its potential usefulness in and of itself, rather than in terms of how likely a given author is to use it.

When I think of concrit, I tend to include both suggestions for how to improve the current story and how the author can improve their writing in general for the future; I tend to think the two are inextricably linked. Improvement right now could be impossible for a variety of reasons, though—there are cases like this, where the author doesn't (currently) have the skill required, but also cases of the piece in question being an old and/or completed work that the author has no intention of revising again simply because they've moved on. Concrit of a finished or abandoned piece can still guide the author to greater success in a future work, so even though improvement right now is impossible, it's still constructive to provide recommendations for improvement later.

Whether it's worth the time to do this for a given fanwriter is a personal decision, but I still think it counts as concrit regardless of their ability or inclination to use it.

Re. common sense: If only it were!

~Neshomeh

I can understand that. by Araeph on 2012-04-06 01:18:00 UTC Reply

For myself, an author's receptivity and/or the ability to improve the story in question are inextricably linked to my giving constructive criticism. If I feel that it is next to impossible for a story to improve because of anything I say about it, it makes me think I'm wasting my time critiquing it, instead of having fun with a PPC/MST of it.

But in this case, my reviewing the story was a very good thing! I won't call it constructive criticism (at least, it might be by your definition, but not by mine), but there's a good chance that the story will be taken off, and I can say with confidence that the author's writing has improved. That's not something you can say about every writer, especially on the Pit.

On another note...

Have you ever noticed that the people who seem to turn to writing goodfic (or at least, less awful badfic) have always been the younger writers? It seems, at least to me, that despite pro-Sue groups harping on the fact that we criticize works by younger fans, the younger writers are the ones who benefit the most from our criticism. Conversely, the longest, most painful Suethor diatribes I have seen have usually been from the writers in their late twenties or early thirties (I know there are several in the "insanity" memories of Deleterius). My guess? It's much more galling to be a 33-year-old who's just discovered she writes dreck than to be a 13-year-old who's discovered the same thing.

In fact, the only other author who responded to my concrit favorably was the you-Sue author who's Sue stole Jack's ship. She was 13, and she reformed her OC! So, to sum up, thanks for reminding me to send the review, and I see no reason why we can't have Constructive Criticism: Definitions One and Two.

~Araeph

Another one with read-out-loud potential by Aeidhryn on 2012-04-03 15:49:00 UTC Reply

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7434545/1/ASadSadDayofEndlessEternal_Angst

So angsty. So much potential. Somebody read it?

xD by AnnaBee on 2012-04-03 16:03:00 UTC Reply

'It is dark. Like tea.

And your suit.

And your soul.'

...Fortunately, it seems that this one is that bad on PURPOSE. If someone wrote that in cold blood as a serious fic... XDDDD

Those three lines by Aeidhryn on 2012-04-03 19:14:00 UTC Reply

get /everybody/, I swear. XD

I started laughing uncontrollably. by AnnaBee on 2012-04-03 19:34:00 UTC Reply

In the middle of my college library. Everyone gave me the weirdest looks.

Nice. by Aeidhryn on 2012-04-03 22:42:00 UTC Reply

But if it's translated... by Huinesoron on 2012-04-03 08:24:00 UTC Reply

... how the heck did 'galumphed' make it in there? That's a Jabberwocky word, no translator should just throw it in there.

(Which makes me wonder: when they translated Looking Glass into other languages, what did they do with Jabberwocky?)

The question for you is, are you going to try and recreate the story as the author intended it and kill it that way, or (possibly more interesting, but very surreal) rewrite it as literally as possible? Which would lead to something like:

Jack Sparrow is on his own, spread across the island. Gibs is also on his own, since the night It-Was-Satisfied galumphed off.

---That Night---

Jack was walking around by himself. He hoped there was a small town in the island of Sat Because, since the boat Is-The-Same-Night had disappeared into the waves.

It took a while, but Jack found a small village in the middle of the island. He looked around a bit. When he came to a boat shop, a man with the unlikely name of He went inside. Mr. He gently touched a small boat - but the simple touch was well-nigh enough to get rid of the island, for it was a magic boat.

As the remains of the shop floated on the water, Mr. He walked over to a gentle bystander and asked what the boat cost. '20 gold coins,' the bystander said, which Mr. He realised was a bargain for magic boats of this kind. Mr He., noticing Jack clinging to the doorframe, told him all about the boat.

Jack handed the bystander the 20 gold coins, and climbed into the boat. He pushed off from the shop so hard that it began to turn, and the gentle bystander realised that Jack was... a pirate!

... which is kind of an awesome story, really. But would probably require a lot of explanation on your part - and a lot of work.

I agree that it totally needs a dramatic reading. I might even do some or all of one - provided I don't have to understand what it means.

hS
Yeah... by Matthew72 on 2012-04-02 15:30:00 UTC Reply

This is definitely translated from Dutch. There are a few mispelled words left untranslated.

As for the story...
I can understand the majority of it. Though the constant (mis)use of the word "gently" as a verb makes me think it was mistranslated.
If you really need it, by melancholicPoet on 2012-04-02 06:18:00 UTC Reply

I can translate it for you. Not from dutch I mean. I speak google translate. As far as what your agents will do however, I have no idea.
Somehow, I think this was translated. by Pretzel on 2012-04-02 06:09:00 UTC Reply

Though from what language, I couldn't even begin to tell you, though judging from the fact that the author is from the Netherlands, I'd say it's most likely Dutch.

As for suggestions, I have two: One, you could have a DoSAT gadget to help try to untangle this mess, or two, just try to battle through it the best you can.