Subject: That's what I /assumed/.
Author:
Posted on: 2013-08-09 06:53:00 UTC
Which means the 'fic got it wrong (or at least, didn't state it, which totally counts). Thank you!
hS
Subject: That's what I /assumed/.
Author:
Posted on: 2013-08-09 06:53:00 UTC
Which means the 'fic got it wrong (or at least, didn't state it, which totally counts). Thank you!
hS
I've mentioned that I've been working on rewriting the Mary Sue article on the wiki again, because the current version has some flaws and doesn't quite say what it needs to say. It's taken a while, because I'm wrestling with concepts more abstract and yet more objective, definitive, and useful than ever before, but I finally have a partial draft that I'm not too hideously embarrassed to put up for feedback.
And I need your feedback. I'm writing this for the benefit of the PPC at large, not my own entertainment. I need this definition challenged with specific examples to see how well it holds up—further, I'm expecting this to rule out some enjoyable, well-constructed characters that might have been considered Sues under previous definitions, so I need to see how well that works. I need suggestions for how to make the writing more clear. I need questions if you have no idea what the heck I'm talking about. I could definitely stand suggestions for how to trim it down, because I've thrown an awful lot of words at this one, and I don't know how many of them are strictly warranted. So, let me have it. Hit me with your best shot.
~Neshomeh
I like it. But, honestly, if I had come to this article trying to find out why the PPC killed my wonderful original character calling him a Mary Sue, I would have stopped reading after “We of the PPC are attempting a fairly unique thing in that we're seeking to define "Mary Sue" not in terms of what it does...” For Eru’s sake, I just came from the mission report, where the agents rant about what my OC did to the poor canon. I would never see the sixth paragraph of your chapter “Flat vs. Dynamic”.
Maybe it would help to say, somewhere near the top, where everybody can see it, something like “For most practical purposes of the PPC's agents, Mary Sues and Gary Stus are original characters in fan fiction, who, rather than fitting into the world where their story is assumed to happen, warp this world until it fulfills their needs”, and then give the more detailed explanations.
I seconde what Huinesoron said concerning Primary and Secondary Traits, specifically “What I think we need is a section that specifically debunks the idea that these traits are anything other than common characteristics of Sues.”
Your use of the word “Stus” (already pointed out by doctorlit) stood out to me because you never mentioned that a male “Mary Sue” is sometimes called “Gary Stu”, so readers may not understand what you are talking about.
May speaking about “Sues and Stus” in plural help to avoid the he/she/it-problem?
I spotted a mistake: we're only shown that the she is more powerful than weaklings and fools. “The” shouldn’t be there.
We definitely need to mention the name Gary-Stu, and probably the other variants (I'm pretty sure Jay and Acacia used 'Marty-Sam' back in the day). We might actually need a full 'Terminology' section, for when (if?) non-English-human terms get used more often (there's a few around, but mostly only used once or twice).
As regards your main point: there's not a lot of fun to be had of writing 'this character is so flat!' over and over again ;). A mission is about (well, mostly having fun, but) breaking down exactly why a character or story is badly-written. And having fun. As an example from a mission I'm working on at the moment: the scene I'm playing with was a very boring sequence of Anneliese opening some presents... stupid presents:
after reading lots of them. I also understand why all these details must be there. I just tried to imagine the reaction of a fourteen-year-old who knows nothing but:
“Some (un-)friendly person linked me to this sporking of my first fanfic, and rather than being a complete jerk and just flaming it, I try to understand what’s going on. I want a short explanation of what they mean by “Mary Sue” (because I have heard that Mary Sue is a beautiful girl loved by everybody, but my OC is a dude), and why being a “Mary Sue” is a death-worthy crime. What I find is a highbrowed essay which doesn’t seem to relate to my recent experience, and it’s no fun to read all these sophisticated and super-scientific sentences, but I do understand that Mary Sue can be male, but then I feel mocked again when it says that it doesn’t matter what Mary Sue does, it’s all about how he’s written, but they just killed my OC for what he did, like joining the fellowship, inventing an un-canonical spell, putting (totally imaginary) antlers on Capt’n Jack Sparrows head and causing an even more imaginary punctuation storm. So they’re all nuts and I don’t need to read further – ”
and it is really difficult for me to rant on in this alien language, but I hope you see what I mean.
Maybe this imaginary fourteen-year-old just looks in the wrong place, it’s all covered in the “FAQ: for Other People”?
Nyx Nightingale in an actual mission and her partner seems to be a Noldor? How long will we have to wait for this?
"Highbrowed," "sophisticated," and "super-scientific"? I'm flattered. ^_^
But I definitely agree that doesn't make it very approachable to the average young fanfic writer, and that could be problematic. I don't know if it's possible to tone it down and maintain the level of precision I think we need in this section, but the good news is that there's a section in the complete article called "Why Hate Mary Sue?" that could address that angle of approach. The current version doesn't quite cut it, though, so I'll be taking a crack at that once I've got the definition down.
Thanks for the feedback!
~Neshomeh
(Well, I don't know, but I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and now I do know, so yes) I just really like giving examples.
I think the key is that the Wiki is primarily for us to use, as a reference guide. If I were a new PPC writer who wanted to do a mission in the DMS, I'd want to know how we define 'Mary-Sue' so I didn't get it messed up. It's also very useful next time someone starts telling us how we hate women (not recently, thank the stars, but it's happened a few times).
All of which means that the answer to 'why did my awesome character get a PiPiSee story written about it?' should be in the FAQ For Other People. And, indeed, it may well be buried in there somewhere - but that FAQ is, er, raaaaather confrontational. I'm not sure it really serves its intended purpose. That should probably be worked on...
On the other leaf (er, hand - sorry, writing about Flowers right now), we probably need to discuss exactly that point in the 'Mary-Sue' article: that missions will probably talk (and charge) about physical traits and actions, rather than fundamental flaws... I think it'd be good to encourage doing both, so I'm trying to do so myself:
I just finished re-watching the extended editions so it's pretty fresh in my memory. When they enter the Chamber you can see clearly the shaft of light coming down to illuminate Balin's tomb from the far wall. After the battle (as Gandalf says "To the Bridge of Khazad-Dûm"), the next scene shows the Fellowship entering another pillared hall with the light beam shining above them across the hall.
Ergo either they exit the Chamber via the rear wall or else PJ made a continuity error and had a suddenly-appearing beam of light.
Elcalion
Which means the 'fic got it wrong (or at least, didn't state it, which totally counts). Thank you!
hS
I realized too late that putting this half sentence into the subject sounds rude, I should have said something like “Just trying to help” there.
Also I should have remebered that you obviously couldn’t know me. I intended to watch the board for some time, to decide whether I want to join. Since you still wouldn’t know me from just saying “Hello”, I want to do an introductory post which really tells something meaningfull about me. But I never find the time to do it, and then I see something interesting and can not resist the urge to talk out of order before I introduced myself.
I’m sorry. Thank you for listening.
Hieronymus (on an old PC, where spell check only works for German)
I understood what you meant. (Also, I really had to fight the urge to make the subject line of this 'No worries, I just assume you're a', with the post starting 'person I don't know').
Your introductory post doesn't have to be a work of genius, you know. People will ask endless questions anyway, so there's no need to overwork yourself.
hS
It emphasises the main points of Sue and really hammers out why we see them as anti-feminist, amongst other things. Also, will the final be using the meme drawing I posted months ago? Or shall I draw you something else?
I was thinking instead of saying "characters serve the plot but Sues have the plot serve them" you could potentially say that "Instead of changing and developing to suit the plot, the Sue makes the plot change to suit them". I can see some people getting confused about serving the plot versus plot serving them, so this might... explain it a bit better? And it also shows how Sues like to bend Canon for their own whims a bit better.
Instead of changing and developing as a consequence of the plot, the Sue makes the plot change to suit them.
Other terms might be 'as dictated by the plot', or 'in accordance with the plot', or 'due to the events of the plot'.
I agree with 'makes the plot change to suit them' - it's a good expansion of the phrase.
hS
Noted—expanding that line to make it more clear makes sense.
As for the drawing, I think we should wait and see the final shape of the article before making a decision about that. As it stands now, I'm not sure where we'd actually put that picture. Maybe in the section about why we don't like Sues... but we'll see. {= )
~Neshomeh
I very much like this. I think it's comprehensive enough to alleviate outside readers' concerns about us specifically hating on female characters.
That said, in the sentence: "Other Sues, and Stus in particular, may be described as being unnaturally buff . . ." I think maybe "Stus" should be changed to "male Sues" to match up with the use of "female Sues" in the previous sentence. As it is, it feels a bit contradictory of the earlier statement that the PPC uses "Mary Sue" as a blanket term for all Suvians.
Also, the reference link to "A Trekkie's Tale" is broken. Which is unfortunate, because I totally wanted to read that. (Looks to me like the whole domain got sold.)
Shoot, I forgot about the link. I noticed that somewhere else and found a replacement a while ago, so I'll track it down again and get that fixed.
I'm... not sure what to do about Gary Stu, to be honest. While it's true that "Mary Sue" is used as a blanket term, it's also true that we talk about Sues and Stus separately, and in most cases it's "Stu" when we're dealing with individual male characters. Maybe I should note that in the lede instead of leaving it until the Related Terms section...?
~Neshomeh
First of all, I think it's really, really good. I like all the examples, because they really do the show, not tell. That, I think, is where the "awful lot of words" come from. I don't think it needs to be trimmed, because more explanation helps to cover more complexities.
A few things, though:
It's bugging me to keep seeing "it". I know there's no good gender-neutral pronoun, but well, "it" is dehumanizing. While Mary Sues can be labeled as "it", I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I think of good characters as if they are humans (or whatever living species), not as objects. Maybe "they"? Or, since it's specified at the beginning that female pronouns are used as blanket nouns, maybe use those?
In conclusion, the English language needs a gender-neutral pronoun.
2. About the "I'm expecting this to rule out some enjoyable, well-constructed characters that might have been considered Sues under previous definitions", I think overall this succeeded. I love the sentence "The traits discussed here are symptoms, though, not the disease, and any individual one can be written in a way that works." However, that sentence is on top of primary traits. I'm a bit confused - how can writing characters OOC be done well, except in parody? (And I don't count, for example, a situation where Spock shows his emotions as OOC unless it's badly explained, which it usually is.) Perhaps that sentence should be moved to the top of secondary traits.
Also, I feel like labeling good characters as Sues for superficial traits is something very common, so it might be good to make the sentence more forceful. Something like "It's very important to remember that the traits discussed here are symptoms, not the disease, and any individual one can be written in a way that works." Possibly bolded.
Then again, that could be just me hating that Seven of Nine gets called a Mary Sue because she's hot and has a tragic past (written well).
So yeah, those are my thoughts for now.
I agree that the article needs pronoun consistency. Despite the fact that we say that 'she' is used generically (which it is), I don't think we should use it that way in the article - it makes too many implicit statements. Equally, 'he' shouldn't be used generically here (also, using 'he' to talk about 'Mary-Sue' would be kind of weird).
When it comes to 'it' and 'they'... well:
When a Mary Sue faces a problem, either it overcomes the obstacle easily with the powers or abilities it already possesses...
When a Mary Sue faces a problem, either they overcome the obstacle easily with the powers or abilities they already possess...
There's nothing wrong with the second version - it's grammatically correct these days - but I don't like it. ;) That said, it's not as awkward as I was afraid it was going to be. Given that this article is about distinguishing 'Sues from good characters, 'it' wouldn't be appropriate in the case of a character who could go either way (and it would be jarring to change halfway through a sentence: 'Either it is flat, or they are dynamic').
With all that in mind, I think I'd vote for singular 'they' throughout (despite my objections), shifting to 'he' and 'she' where it is specific to one or the other, and never using 'it' of a character.
hS
Actually, I think that the one solution that you overlooked is the best solution in this case: the plural "they". Since the article talks about Mary-Sues in general, I think that using a plural "they" unless a singular subject is absolutely necessary resolves all problems: there are no gender issues, and it is not as grammatically awkward as a singular "they," thus:
When Mary Sues face a problem, either they overcome the obstacle easily with the powers or abilities they already possess...
BUT
In Sue stories, instead of [gender bias] being something that forces the character to struggle and work extra-hard to achieve her goals, a Sue will instantly remove the obstacle by humiliating a token biased man...
So I'd go for plural "they", switching to the requisite singular pronoun whenever needed.
First off, I definitely prefer plural-"they" over singular-"they," and I can switch over to that if people feel really strongly about it. However, there are some reasons I used "it" in the first place:
1. I don't have a problem with dehumanizing Mary Sues, which are neither real people nor even good characters. They aren't treated as real people/characters anywhere in the PPC—which is one reason assassinating them is not considered murder—and I don't think there's any reason they should be.
2. "It" is forcefully a-gendered, which I think is really important here. A fictional character doesn't have a gender until it's assigned one by its author, so while we're talking about the abstract concept of a Mary Sue, I don't want to give anyone the slightest chance of assuming we mean all girls all the time just because the concept happens to have a girl's name. I think using "it" is a very efficient way to force the brain to discard gender assumptions.
3. This doesn't directly have anything to do with the article, but it's healthy to be able to look at your own characters objectively, as the role they play in the story rather than the emotional connection you have with them. It's a lesson a lot of authors, including Suethors, have to learn in order to accept criticism and use it to improve their writing. If there's a chance that using this language can snap anyone's mind out of the notion that Mary Sues are precious little darlings that shouldn't be criticized because of the emotional damage to their authors who love them so, I think we should do it.
To sum up, I'm deliberately trying to mess with people's heads in order to create new understanding. If it doesn't work, I'll discard it, but that's why I did it this way.
~Neshomeh
It's not just you hating that Seven of Nine gets called a Mary Sue. Sometimes I feel that people label every character that is in any way not generic a Mary Sue. But I could go on a rant here.
Also, singular they.
I would move the two bits in Expanding the Definition down to Primary Traits, the bits that are currently in Primary Traits down to Secondary Traits, and get rid of the current Secondary Traits entirely.
Here is my reasoning. I think the current Primary Traits are a symptom, not the disease. The disease is flat characters that are not what we keep being told they are (see: Expanding the Definition). The current Primary Traits are, in reality, secondary to that.
The current Secondary traits need to go away, and there is a simple reason for this. How many times has someone come to us and said "I found this character with all of these Secondary Traits. It is such a Sue." Listing these superficial traits on the page causes some people to see them as kind of a checklist. It doesn't even seem matter that they are labeled as being secondary.
So, for the sake of making our definition clearer, I think the Secondary Traits should be axed and everything else should move down a space.
-Phobos
Disagreement first: I don't think 'Expanding the Definition' should be 'Primary Traits'. It is what it says - an expansion, with specific contrasts and discussion. It's a 'this is what we mean by that', not a set of traits per se.
However, I do agree that 'primary' should be moved to 'secondary'. To answer hermione's question about when OOC characters can be well-written - most of the current primary traits are very much workable in an AU setting. How would the Ring War have been different if Aragorn had been more like Boromir - ie, somewhat arrogant, and very susceptible to the Ring? Heck, what would have happened if the hereditary leader of the Rangers of the North had been a cruel, cold character (let's call him 'Aragorn', since that's his name) - and then happened on four hobbits and a magic Ring in Bree?
But they are, usually, bad things. That doesn't mean there's a Mary-Sue involved. A perfectly good character can still be in a story where the rules of the world are ignored.
Actually, the way they are explained on the page, the 'Primary' traits pretty much are inexcusable. A little tweaking to add a few 'without explanation's and the like would make them purely indicative of bad writing - without, of course, necessarily making for a Suefic.
I would suggest, then, retitling 'Primary Traits' to something like 'Other bad writing' (only better phrased ;)) and letting it stand as a 'This sort of bad writing doesn't necessarily make for a Mary-Sue, but it does mark a badly-written story of the sort in which they often appear'.
As to the 'Secondary Traits'... I don't think removing them is the right answer. Like it or not (and I don't, particularly), people in and out of the PPC will see things like 'a flowing waterfall of gold-and-violet curls' and think 'Mary-Sue'. If we don't mention that fact, people are going to be rather confused as to why we're using the word.
What I think we need is a section that specifically debunks the idea that these traits are anything other than common characteristics of Sues. That is, something that points out firmly that a) a non-flat character cannot be a Mary-Sue, b) Mary-Sues can only be identified by the quality (or lack thereof) of their writing, c) but that many people will assume that any character with the following traits is a 'Sue, even though any of them - or all of them together - can be written well.
hS
My conception is that the traits are the various ways the flatness and "tell"iness of Mary Sues tend to express in practice. The Primary Traits are things that almost always happen to allow Sues to get through their stories without developing. The Secondary Traits are a selection of things we're often told about Sues to trick us into thinking they're interesting. I can definitely spell that out more clearly. Also, I agree that adding some "without explanation"s and some debunking is needed.
~Neshomeh
It seems like you got the traits of a Sue mainly correct over the course of the article. However, I disagree somewhat with the definition: "an unintentionally flat fictional character."
I think that your usage of "unintentionally" is in order to separate Sues from trollfic characters. If so, my opinion is that that distinction needs to be fleshed out in the article, but not necessarily mentioned in the definition.
Also, since you distinguished between Sues and bits ("It's perfectly fine to intentionally design a one-note character to enter, play their part, and exit, but if the main character—the one who has to engage the readers and carry them through the story—never develops, that's a sign of poor characterization and story-telling.") then maybe your definition should say "an unintentionally flat fictional main character."
However, I have been quite a fan of the formulation that you made quite a while ago: a Sue "A. does not behave like a believable-for-the-context person, B. does not get believable-for-the-context treatment from others, and C. is successful just because the plot says so." So let me suggest this to the Board: perhaps that should be the definition, since I believe we all agree that that is the essence of what a Sue is and does.
The fact that Sues are usually main characters is expressed in the line "It is almost always the central focus of its story." I'm not sure why I wrote it that way instead of saying "It is almost always the main character of its story," so that's something I can change.
As for the definition, the ABCs there are only half the picture. I think they don't quite cover the "show vs tell" problem that results in what we call speshulness.
That's part of why "unintentionally" is in the definition, actually. Sues tend to be loaded down with attributes that are supposed to make them interesting, but it doesn't work, because interest comes from actions and growth, not attributes. They are flat despite the fact that they are emphatically meant to be the most interesting, coolest, bestest characters ever, so "unintentionally" is an important word. The fact that it also distinguishes Sues from bit characters, trolls, parodies, etc. is incidental.
I hope that makes sense. Thanks for the feedback!
~Neshomeh