Subject: Regarding Sues
Author:
Posted on: 2008-07-31 16:23:00 UTC
Everyone has written Sues. It's the nature of the beast. The fact that you know and have admitted that several of your creations are Sues means you are way further along than any Suethor.
I would like to offer my help to along with all the wonderful people who have already done so. And I don't think you're a wangsty little brat.
to spork awful crap.
I'm not a Permission Giver, but I'd just like to put out my opinion here. If anyone vehemently disagrees, they're more than welcome to beat me over the head with a Clue By Four.
I really don't think you should be given Permission.
For one, a lot of the stuff you've posted here for the last several months really isn't in the spirit of the PPC, and a lot of the time it's like you're trying to showboat how hardcore you are, that you can stand shock images and you go on /b/ and stuff.
Secondly, you don't even turn up very often. You post possibly half a dozen times a month. That's nowhere near enough for people to get to know you. The fact that your posts, when they show up, are normally just one liners that give us nothing doesn't help either. And when people call you out on things, you often ignore it for days and then when, if you reply at all, you pretty much brush off everything they say.
Another thing, the Agent you made, Janus, is pretty much a total Stu. I know you gave him more 'flaws', but honestly, he still is a Stu. Anyone reading the Agent page (stick link to page here for everyone's eyes) can see that. Even now, a bunch of edits later, your 'Agent' still is a sorry specimen for the PPC.
Also, finally, you tend to make a lot of people feel uncomfortable when you post, due to the content (shock images from /b/ and so forth) and you don't seem to post in any thread unless someone that seems especially prominent in the PPC, like Huinesoron, Trojanhorse, or pretty much any remaining oldbie, Permission Giver, or midbie that posts often enough posts there, which quite frankly, is disgusting sycophantic behavior. Everyone here is an equal, regardless of how long they've been here or how much they post. Stuff like that leaves poor impressions and a bad taste in everyone's mouth.
In short, just no.
But, for anyone who cares, this is my reason why I haven't asked for Permission yet, nor will I any time in the near future.
Basically, I'm terrified someone will one day call me out and say 'Hey! This writing's crap!' (only far more eloquently here). It's all to do with a couple of writing experiences I had when I was younger, plus terrible insecurity that is also a relic from my primary school days.
One other thing before I start, please don't think I'm a wangsty little brat. Rereading this post, while it's the best I can get it, I'm still worried I'll paint a picture of myself as a typical emo teenager - someone who thinks their life sucks, even when it doesn't. Thank you.
In year 7 (age 11-12), I aspired to be a writer. I had a 'Sue from when I was far younger, and I idolised her. She was everything I wanted to be - i.e. Speshul. Primary school, and year seven, were both a rough time for me, so I was feeling pretty hard-done-by. So I wrote this 'Sue in private, just in notebooks or whatever, until I found out about Mary-Sues.
When I first heard of them, I laughed off the fact that my character might be one. 'She's not that special,' I'd say to convince myself. 'She hasn't got "milk-like skin", or wings, or chocolate eyes. I'm fine.' But this was all denial. Eventually, I saw sense, and dumped the 'Sue, promising myself I wouldn't write anything like that again. Unfortunately, however, I did.
When I started writing my second 'Sue, I checked litmus tests over and over again. I wanted to make her as believable as possible, and that meant no 'speshulness'. It didn't work. The 'Sue turned out a travesty - she was Voldemort's daughter, with bright red eyes, Luna Lovegood was her BFF, etc. And again, I stopped denying ehat I'd written, and woke up.
I think at that point, I stopped trusting my writing abilities. Whenever I think, 'Oh, such-and-such character might be interesting to try and write', I imagine bad reviews, being despised as a Suethor, any story of mine being featured on Pottersues. And when it's originalfic, I keep thinking, 'What if I run out of inspiration part-way through? What if no-one wants to publish it? What if I become another Christopher Paolini?'
So, in short, I'm not going to ask for Permission because I think I suck, and because I'm stupidly insecure. The end.
I'm sorry for the TL;DR post, and if anyone takes this as aimed at them, because it's not. You people are some of the nicest I've met on the internet, and I have nothing but respect for you - apologies if I come across as bitter and angry. Thank you for your time.
-Lynxihez, who is now wondering whether this is even the right place to post her bucketload of BAWWWWW.
And now I'm going to completely go back on myself, because after lying awake most of last night, I had plenty of opportunities to think things over.
So, I've decided to apply for Permission. Your responses had quite a big part to do with it - after convincing myself you weren't just saying all this to be kind (and it sounded as if you were sincere; I'm just really paranoid sometimes), I decided that first thing tomorrow morning I'd ask a couple of questions about applying for Permission. If I can post something that isn't fiction per se as my writing sample, I'm good to go. Watch out for the top of the board, I'm gonna be inundating the board with questions.
Also, thanks for those who have said 'Writing 'Sues is a natural stage of writing'. I accpet that, it was more that I misinterpreted it when I wrote my second 'Sue - I figured that good writers only ever wrote one. I was wrong. My bad. :P
Everyone has written Sues. It's the nature of the beast. The fact that you know and have admitted that several of your creations are Sues means you are way further along than any Suethor.
I would like to offer my help to along with all the wonderful people who have already done so. And I don't think you're a wangsty little brat.
Lynxihez, all our Agents have a flavour of Sue or Stu about them somewhere. It's hard to kick butt in fandom without some special skills :P Hell, half of them ARE ex-Sues and Stus who retain their Suvian abilities.
If you have worried that much about your writing, and analysed it that much, I'm willing to bet it isn't half as bad as you think it is. My advice would be to ask someone else for an impartial readthrough. You don't have to ask for Permission if you don't want to, but I'm sure anyone here would be cool with just going over your work with you if you have worries about it. I'll do it myself if you want. I'd be pleased to.
Pep talk over, now here's the explanation.
The main objection with Fichunter is not his Agent Janus, who, admittedly, is quite Stuish, but who COULD, with work, become a workable Agent. No, the objection, at least as far as I see it and as far as I can glean from other posters, is that he just seems not to understand the point of the PPC and to not be getting into the spirit of the thing, which is the WRITING. Not the blowing shit up, or the steeling ourselves to read bad squick (if that's your idea of fun). It all boils down to quality of writing. We really are like vigilante transdimensional copy editors.
And it seems to me that you have a deep concern for the quality of writing, which tells me that you belong here with us, whether or not you choose to actively spork badfic.
- Trojie
Oooh, look, I'm only jumping in when Trojie did, same as other people were accused of. Bad me.
I've been watching this thread since July decided to say something, and it's been a couple of days, and we've heard nothing from Fichunter. There has been no response to this entire thread from her/him. That in itself says a lot. The entire thread seems to contain references to "senior" Board members, and that's not the way it's meant to work here, which means, in effect, anyone can object, but few dare to. So kudos to July for being the one who dared to.
And I will also volunteer to look at your stuff, Lynxihez, and quibble with you over any Sueish aspects and how to make them non-Sueish. Glod knows, as other Boarders could tell you, I've been critical enough of late when it comes to potential Sueishness; it'd be a fine thing to see a Sue whose author actually wants to fix her, and be able to help with that. Even if you're not planning to publish anywhere (even online), we're still happy to talk over how and why you're writing, and happy to try to help you improve.
Lynx, I think the fact that you're so concerned with getting it right is what makes the major difference. I know of very, very few Sue writers who are willing to admit that their stories might need work - the willingness to accept criticism makes a huge difference.
I won't offer to help, as there are already quite enough people doing so (and I'm rather swamped with work just now...), but I really suggest you try; even if you're never going to be the best writer around, I completely believe that anyone who tries hard enough can produce something decent.
And if not - fine. Everyone understands. And you can still create agents to join with the role-playing here on the Board.
Actually, I was deathly afraid of that, too. I am, sort of.
But I think what's important is to go through with the idea. Go on and charge with it. See where you end up. Everyone can improve; it's admitting and accepting help that seperates people.
If you don't want to ask for permission, Lynx, don't; it's not like people will throw things at you for not doing so. But I, along with the others, volunteer to look at some of your stuff if you need it. (Not that I'll be much of a help... -_-;;)
And... yeah. That's all. :)
It can't be as bad as that. Sure, we've all got a Mary-Sue or two in our closet *Ignores the fifty or so in his* but that doesn't mean anything.
But, while we're on the topic, maybe a new thread could have been used...
Anyway... The most interesting thing about Mary-Sues is that they can happen anywhere, anytime. Harry Potter, for example, is a prime example of a well-written Gary-Stu. Yes, he is a Gary-Stu, but he's written in a way that make sit forgivable.
Eragon, on the other hand... We just won't go there.
But in the end mate, it's all with you. If you have issues with writing, then just ask. If you post an Agent who seems Stuish / Suish, that's fine. We'll let you know, and if you're open to it, give you help to knock 'em down a little. When creating characters, I tend to follow the balance rule, my character might be good at sports, but only sports that require speed, or flexibility. It's all about limitations.
And that would be your self-doubt talking. I find the best way to deal with that is to shrug and ignore it. You're just being hard on yourself. at the very most, you're saying you could be better, and writing gives you the opportunity to be better, at worst, you stop doing the thing you love doing. Not a good option.
But again, this is a site for the PPC. Protectors of the Plot Continuum. We spork the occasional badfic, sure, but mostly, we're here to help guide new writers into what they could be, which could be the next J.k Rowling, or the next Tolkein (Blasphemy!). We don't go out of our way to hurt people, we just drive the point home when we get ignored. We're here to help you, and there's a bunch of people on here who would be willing to Beta anything you do, all you need is ask.
Well, to sum up, I'd encourage you to ask permission. We wanna help, and we do enjoy new blood. We just might seem a little harsh right now because someone doesn't fulfil all the guidelines we expect, which were mostly social. If you're willing to work on writing, even if you're a far better writer than J.k Rowling, then we're always gonna be willing to help you.
You really need to sit and think about what we're here for, and realise it's not a contest of Who's the Hardest. It's about having fun, being snarky and above all being ACCURATE in our writing, which your Janus page suggests you need to work on; the grammar is spacked.
However a) you haven't posted a writing sample yet so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt til then, and b)like the others, I'm not any kind of Permission Giver or Responsible Person here, so your official Yea or Nay will have to wait for them.
July, I know well how hard it is to turn someone down kindly, particularly if you aren't directly charged with the duty. I applaud your tact and honesty.
And Fichunter? I hope there's no hard feelings. It's nothing personal; that's why anyone can always ask again later.
July and Sedri, there's "turning someone down kindly" and there's insulting their writing style, them, their agents and everything they stand for.
I acknowledge your tact and honesty, July, but I do not applaud it. By the way I know I may seem rather insolent talking like this to several senior members of the board, and yes I know I've probaly made half a dozen spelling and grammatical errors in this post. But, quiet honestly, I think someone had to say something.
cga
ps. can I get kicked from the board for being rude to senior members?
It's just that I, being overcautious about offending people (and admittedly not having an excellent memory for who has done what), would find it very hard to do what July did, and say what needed to be said. Thus, I admire the fact that she did it, and wanted to say so. It was meant as a careful compliment.
Everything else I might say in response here has already been said - thanks, July. Le Jai, I really appreciate you sticking up for us.
And cga? Just to make a personal note, I don't think you were being insolent (not that I'm even close to being a senior member); you were being honest. Inaccurate, in my opinion, but honest. Not rude. Sharp, perhaps, but not rude, and sharp isn't necessarily a bad thing. In any case, I'm glad you said what you think instead of keeping quiet.
Ah, just sorta interrupting here, but... I've seen some of the shock /b/ material July is talking about. It's not really PPC fare. At all. Considering, most especially, that there are members that aren't even fifteen yet. People shouldn't have to look at that if they don't want to, especially if it's something like /b/-stuff. And I'm a lurker/Noob myself, so, just saying and all. And if you're here, you should know that an Agent has to be good to get into the PPC; you can't just throw a Stu together and expect to get in. It's just not the way things work. I'm almost positive my possible-agent-idea isn't going to be good enough, and I am always thinking of how to make it better. You can't simply just assume yours is good enough.
Also, out of curiosity, do you know Fichunter at all? Have you seen his posts, etc? Because if you haven't, I think it's kind of rude for you to be jumping down Sedri and July's throats for telling him the truth about his likelihood of getting in. If they think he's not got a good chance, he's probably not got a good chance.
And I really probably oughtn't be sticking my nose in, but as someone who respects July, Sedri and the other Mid- and Old-bies.
So, apologies for jumping in where my opinion likely isn't wanted, but I felt I had to say something.
And while my response isn't nearly as well thought out or as definitive as July's, I still feel the need to put it out there.
And now, I return to my lurking, and enjoying everyone else's interesting-ness on the board.
I don't actually know fichunter and no I handn't seen any of his links to /b/ stuff.
In response to "Considering, most especially, that there are members that aren't even fifteen yet" Yes, I am well aware that there are members that aren't even fifteen yet- I'm not even fifteen....well not untill August (but I'm still taller than Fynn)
Taking swipes at me in RL is bad enough, but online....? *smites*
I have an Agent with a cut-throat razor - you really want me to go and borrow it? (Hmm..s'pose I could cut you down to size...)
Being 'kind' was not the first concern when I wrote that post. It wasn't even a main concern. I'm not going to be kind when stating my opinion, and the truth is, that's my opinion. I typed all of that because I believe that's the case. I even said that at the very first. "I'm not a Permission Giver, but I'd just like to put out my opinion here. "
And I said nothing, nothing at all about Fichunter's writing style. What I said regarding his posts here is that he posts rarely, and whenever he posts something that other people call him out for, he ignores it for a few days and then maybe replies. One of the things that is asked that a person do before they ask for Permission is to be active on the board. A half dozen posts a month that are mostly one-liners is hardly active.
As to Fichunter himself, I don't think saying that it seems like someone is showboating themselves, making people uncomfortable due to posting a link (on two different occasions) to a website full of things like bestiality, bad porn, and grotesque death images, or sticking to posting in threads where 'prominent' people have posted is being insulting. When you're only posting in a thread because people like that have posted in it, that's more of an insult. All I was doing was stating what the situation looked like.
And when the point of the PPC is to be a fun thing that kills Stus and Sues and other badfic things, having an Agent that is a Stu is against the point. When at one point your Agent is described as reading "...the entirety of Celebrian out loud without bleep-products or showing any disgust, (perhaps the sadistic grin was enough) and won the use of their bleepsinthe for 'whenever'" "In an act of true insanity, and a bet between him and the bad slashers" alongside "He also enjoys sadisticly [sic] "enlightening" the newbies about the many kinds of sex fetishes that suethors love to thinkup [sic] and why glue is not lube." this is less an Agent and more a Stu that's copying the characters of other Agents. He only changed all of that after several people read his article for Janus and commented on the talk page thinking he was a troll.
Also, I'm not sure where I'm insulting 'insulting... everything they stand for' but if I managed that, I'm definitely impressed with myself. I never even managed to do that when I was a flamer and was trying to do that!
And everyone is entitled to an opinion, cga. Even if it's wrong, crass, insolent, rude, stupid, over egotistical, silly, or insulting to someone else. After all, I'm not sure about you, but I don't live under a totalitarian dictatorship where having an opinion is wrong. Plus, there's nothing wrong with what you said, you're definitely not being insolent. Maybe cheeky.
And no, you can't get kicked from the board for being rude, and definitely not for being rude to me. Besides, you weren't even rude here. If you thought you were being rude, you need to stop being so nice. Fynn could probably do something about it though, I imagine.
Also, long post is long. o.o;
In explanation, I hadn't infact seen any of the /b/ sites.
But I did take take a personal interest on this occasion simply because soon I will probably be asking for permission and I wouldn't be that happy if all I got for my troubles were half a dozen people telling me bluntly exactly why I would never get into the PPC.
I mean, I'm going on Holiday, does the amount of time spent not commenting mean that I will be branded a Troll and refused permission?
cga, I can assure you, not posting for a few weeks or months isn't going to get you refused permission - I would hope that you'd post fairly frequently for a week or two once you got back, and then ask, just so everyone remembers who you are.
Secondly, there's a huge difference between denying someone permission and branding them as Trolls - we've dealt with trolls here before a couple of times, it is very, very, ugly. I, and I suspect anyone who was around here for the last one (anybody else remember that?), will be very careful about branding people trolls.
Finally, given the... extreme nature of /b/ (protect your innocence, don't look for it), I think July's response was fairly well justified. The thing I really want to see, aside from decent writing ability, is maturity - linking hardcore porn/fetish pictures definitely doesn't display that.
You're very lucky you've never seen anything from /b/. It's nothing that anyone should see when they don't expect it, a lot of it is truly disgusting.
Also, cga, you haven't done anything that'd cause anyone to say no.
It's not the act of not posting that would get a person called a troll, it's the act of posting a link to a very NSFW/NSFB site where kids can see it that'd get a person called a troll. Not posting just means no one really knows you and everyone would rather know the people who're asking for Permission so they would know what they'd do with it.
... that he didn't really seem all that interested in what we actually do.
Thanks, hopefully by posting (and making a tit of myself) I've let you all get to know me- argumentative, short-sighted, quick to jump to conclusions..........but, you haven't seen any of my writing, which may be my saving grace. *prays for writing talent*
Oh, incidenddentally, can I ask a couple of questions about newbie status, what we require permission for and the etiquette of both gifts and minis. (sorry to use you as resident oldbie but you happen to be the only person who replies to my comments on a regular basis)
For one, I'm definitely not an oldbie. XD
And yeah, definitely.
Newbie status just means you're new, stretching back a couple months.
Most people give gifts to newbies and for birthdays, something they picked out as their thing. Like for instance, Sara does the egg whisk thing. I do a link to the wiki if I don't get beat to it by a million other people. It used to be pokes, but people went outwards from the letter P, like Tawaki's plovers, and then from there even further.
Minis are misspellings of canon names and locations in a fanfic or such. You can't just grab one if you see one and say it's your's, because people tend to adopt them and so that doesn't work. Occasionally there'll be a post by Tawaki showing the latest minis he has found, and Cassie does the Mini-Balrogs now.
You need permission to write official spinoffs, mainly because the PPC is a group written canon, and you don't really want someone to wreck it at random. Missions and interludes usually require permission, but occasionally, using Pads for an example, they'll cowrite with someone who already has permission and go around through that loophole, which no one especially minds from what I've seen.
When it comes to PPC RPs, which have popped up time to time, you don't need permission, but you do need Agents to do those, for obvious reasons.
Also, as to spelling issues, I suggest looking your posts over before replying, or use a internet browser that provides a spellcheck feature or install one yourself. I use Firefox and it comes with one.
And yes I am open to questions.
OK, my questions are as follows:
1. As a newbie am I allowed to give gifts
2. As a newbie can I adopt mini's where I spot them?
3. Do I need permission to post some non-PPC stuff up for Beta reading?
1: Yes. People do this.
2. You can adopt them if you're sure they haven't been adopted by someone else. Going to the people who do the 'adoption centers' can ensure you're not accidentally snagging a mini that's already been claimed.
3. No, you can ask for a beta. No permission is needed.
That should have been Incidentally not inciddentaly
Though due to my horrible memory for names, I hadn't made the connection between you and the "shock images" so it's really got nothing to do with that. However, Janus really is rather Stuish and not really what the PPC is looking for. Work on him a bit more and post around the board a bit more and maybe then.
Of course, I'm not even remotely close to a Permission Giver but hey! Neither is July or Sara. *looks around for PGs* I'm sure they'll be here any second, with their snazzy hat.
...this humble midbie has to agree. I don't know you very well at all, mate, and mainly it's because I barely ever see you post. I also took a look at Janus...and...he needs some work. Lastly, I haven't seen much of your writing style, so...if I were a PG (which I'm definitely not--though the Hat is oh-so-snazzy) I'd probably tell you no.
But, hey, you're off to a good start. Some work on Janus would make him a good addition to the PPC, and we'd like to get to know you better. So post! Tell us what you feel about things. You don't have to show us that you're unsquickable, just comment on things that interest you or make you cringe or make you snerk. If you disagree about something, then let us know! Talk to us, mate--even the midbies and the newbies, as silly as we may seem.
*gets off soapbox and sets some Clue By Fours by the door, just in case*
the Permission Givers need a description of your Agent(s) and a link to a writing sample before they'll give you permission.
You need to provide details of what your Agents're like, the Department/Division/fandoms they're going to work in, and a link to a writing sample, so the PGs can get a feel for your style.