Subject: Yup. :D
Author:
Posted on: 2013-12-31 02:11:00 UTC
"From a rec.arts.books.tolkien posting by David Salo, dated 15 September 1997."
I think that's him. Either that, or some other guy writing under the pseudonym "David Salo".
~Autumn
I saw it last night at the midnight premiere, and well...
Wow. Worth the ticket price.
Okay, so as we know, Tauriel is a bit... uh, let's say fickle. We have a scene of her mooning about over Legolas, followed nearly instantly by her falling for Kili. That's one of her personality traits. The other? A violent hatred of orcs, to the point where she'll disobey direct orders so she can kill some more.
Oh, wait, one more: she doesn't think locking the gates and letting the world go hang is a good idea.
Thranduil, now... is a raging xenophobe. He kind of was one in the book, but he's dialled it up to 27 here. He's actually nicer towards Thorin, but refuses to even consider fighting outside his borders - and is racist towards Silvan elves. Which is weird, what with his kingdom being made entirely of them.
So where'd that come from? Well, let's take a look at Thranduil's history:
-Born and/or lived a long time in Doriath. Doriath was populated almost exclusively by Sindarin elves. It was defended by a magical barrier which kept evil entirely out, but left the rest of Beleriand to get utterly wrecked. Sound familiar? Movie!Thranduil's strategy is Thingol and Melian's strategy.
-Driven out of Doriath by the combined violence of dwarves (who killed Thingol) and Noldor (who killed everyone else). Gosh, I wonder why he hates dwarves so much? The death of Thingol, by the way, is the origin of the elf-dwarf feud. And a very shiny rock was involved...
-Moved with his father to Mirkwood Greenwood, where they spent a couple of thousand years ruling a bunch of Silvan elves before they...
-Went to the War of the Last Alliance, where Thranduil's father was killed. That war, by the way, is the one that was caused by the Noldor and the Numenoreans feuding with a renegade Maia who the Valar failed to properly deal with. Literally everyone is to blame for Thranduil's father getting killed.
-So now he's stuck in a woodland realm which is slowly going to pot, in rather grotty halls (compared to the grandeur of Menegroth in Doriath - or of Erebor, for that matter; this is why he wants Thorin's gold and gems, to make his home into something he can think of as worth having. It may also be why he drinks so much ;)).
-He's also surrounded by his social inferiors. Now, Thingol was quite good at dealing with Silvan folk - some of them saved him in the First Battle of Beleriand, after all - but they were the ones who kept heading west, even if they took a while to do it. The elves of Mirkwood (and Lorien, for that matter) are the ones who gave up completely. Compared to the Sindar, they're layabouts. And the Sindar are the only elves in Middle-earth who never compromised. The Noldor got kill-happy in Aman. The Silvan elves, and the Avari if any of them ever show up, wussed out of the Great March. The Sindar? They're the ones who stayed in Middle-earth to search for their king - and found both him and his Maia bride. Even if he wasn't born then, that's a decent amount of cultural pride.
Does Thranduil have a reason to be racist against Silvan elves? No - but given that he's busy hating literally everyone else, I rather suspect he's narrowed his 'acceptable people' definition down to 'Sindar'. He does, at least, seem not to be too angry at Elrond (at least, he was willing to send his son off to visit a few decades later), and Elrond is the last non-mortal descendant of Thingol and Melian.
But what about Tauriel? We know why she hates orcs so much - her parents were killed by them. We don't need a reason for her to think ignoring the world is a bad idea - it is a bad idea, and anyone other than the brainwashed-by-his-racist-dad prince would agree (and, actually, Legolas does agree - or at least go along with it). But the bizarre romance angle?
Well, let's look at her role model. For 600 years (possibly her entire life, but a long time at any rate), Tauriel has been raised by Thranduil... who is racist against her and has no qualms about saying so. Her emotional contact with the person who shapes her worldview consists of him saying 'You are worthless'.
So I figure, she's a bit messed up. She doesn't know what affection feels like. She has four emotional responses in her repertoire:
-Hatred. She hates orcs. Hate hate hate.
-Nothing. She's a captain of the guard - but we never hear anything about the people she serves with, or commands. They seem to be little more than tools in her quest to wipe the orcs off the face of the planet. Look at how she treats... is it Bofur she grabs the athelas from? He's a tool, useful for her goal, then ignored.
-Sorrow. She is sad at... well, Thranduil. Probably she doesn't like people being racist about her when she can't hate them.
-????. There's a fourth emotion she hasn't felt very often. She feels it about Legolas (her pseudo-brother), and about Kili (because he's young and she first met him by saving his life - he's almost like a younger brother, really). Most people would just call this 'affection', or even just 'liking someone'. Tauriel? She's got zero emotional baseline. She calls it love.
hS
Messed up Silvan elleth with no clue what love really is because all she's known is serving under a racist party dad and her pseudo-brother who happens to be the son of said racist party dad.
Sounds like a more interesting OC than most of the stuff that's in the Hobbit section on the Pit anyway.
... are worth telling if you spin them the right way.
(I know, it's off the Front Page - but I'm still replying! OH WHAT A WORLD)
I think I may need to make my own Tolkien Crackpot Theories list - 'Tolkien theories that make just enough sense...'
hS
"Ickle, unhinged Tauriel who has never seen the world outside, falls in love a speshul, Dwarf-Stepping elf prince and a dwarf somehow made hott by PJ's casting choices. (I have no problem with Aiden Turner being Kili, really. He did a great job acting, and I liked what his character did in AUJ.) Who will she choose?"
But honestly, I would really like to see you make your own Tolkien Crackpot Theories list. It would be great fun to read about how the Istari are actually various regenerations of the Doctor, etc.
Incidentally, I'd be the first in line for a ticket if that "LotR made for Hollywood" movie gets made. "Frodo, I am your father." XD
(Not-so-coincidentally, David Salo, the creator of that crackpot theory, later became the chief linguist working on the LotR films. Wondered if he suggested that idea to Peter Jackson.)
~Autumn
I don't know all that much about him - did the languages for the films, and literally wrote the book on Sindarin - but the fact that he's connected to the Crackpot Theories is pretty awesome.
hS
When Bilbo kills the trapdoor spider, the only thought going through my head was "My peanut."
My time is coming. Be afraid.
Visually pretty awesome, they did succeed in not reducing Tauriel to a romance plot (if you're going to add someone, make it worth it,) Bard and Beorn were awesome, but
a) Convection? What convection? It makes some sense that Smaug shook off being laminated in gold, but nobody else should be able to shrug off all the fire.
b) Daylight Orcs again, you can imagine how I feel about those.
c) They made mirkwood about the size of a city park. I understand that they wanted to get to the action, but they made the walk to Dol Gildur so short that they had to lock up Gandalf for his absence when the dragon was woken to be credible.
d) Reusing scenes. Tauriel shining through and Gandalf being imprisoned reminded me a bit too much of similar scenes from Lord of The Rings.
E) If they were going for vermissilitude, they could have made the mirkwood spiders closer to Shelob's design, given that there's one species of great big giant spider in Arda, and they come from Ungoliant.
f) I dunno how Jackson can know all about the birth of the sun and moon and why the elves love stars, but not get that we don't get daylight-walking orcs, and that there's a good reason for that.
The acting and the setmaking and the music was magnificent, though.
Quick! Someone catch Dol Gildur before it's too late!
Oh, and Sevenswans? Do remember to capitalise "m" in Mirkwood.
Er, about Jackson's knowledge about the birth of the Sun and Moon, I think that's because at least 1 of his team have read the Silmarillion and the Unfinished Tales. Which means they know that the Sun is actually the fruit of Laurelin and the Moon is actually the flower of Telperion. Oh, and that the elves first awoke beside Lake Cuivienen, staring up at the stars in the sky.
But I do agree with d). Gandalf imprisoned in Dol Guldur reminds me of Gandalf staring down at industrialised!Isenguard from the pinnacle of Orthanc all over again.
~Autumn
*Nets Dol Gildur* I truly hope that you're not a new one, because you're either going back where you came from or in for a long wait at the adoption center.
Mirkwood. Mirkwood. Much merriment in Mirkwood.
--- But only when I manage to find my Shift key.
There were plenty of things that didn't make a lot of sense, in some cases because it felt like some scenes were cut, but in others just because something strange or silly just decided to happen. Like [SPOILERS TO FOLLOW] that bit at the end, where the dwarves make a giant dwarf out of molten gold, and then it explodes all over Smaug? What were they expecting to gain out of that? Did they want to sear off his scales with the metal? If so, why make the molten metal into the shape of a giant dwarf? Plus, Smaug's heatproof, isn't he? He's a fire-dragon! On a related note, when the big metal dwarf first showed up, the camera held so long on a shot of its face that I halfway expected its eyes to open and it to swing its giant axe at Smaug. It would've been incredibly silly, of course, but come on, a giant golden dwarf fighting a dragon in an underground castle, even if it's only for the few seconds it takes for the dragon to melt it into a pile of slag? It would've been pretty awesome, in my opinion, even though it would've completely gone against the tone of the rest of the movie.
As for Tauriel, she didn't seem like too much of a Sue. I mean, she had her speshul moments, but she's a Tolkien Elf. She's going to have those. Legolas had loads during the original three movies. My main problem regarding her was the shoehorned-in romance between her and Kíli. It felt like the writers realized "Wait! We haven't given the dwarves anything individually to do for the whole movie yet! Let's make one of them and the new elf we just created hit on each other!" And then at the end, where she saves his life with "elvish medicine", which essentially consisted of "doing what the dwarves were going to do, but while chanting and backlit with a Light of Glowing Significance", the romantic subtext came across as so forced that I half-expected Kíli to say that dreaded "it must be an angel" line that comes up whenever the writers can't think of how to make romance go. Granted, there are no angels in Arda, but there aren't any angels in Star Wars either, and Young Anakin said a variation the line in Phantom Menace.
But all in all, Tauriel had plenty of cool things to do that didn't forcibly upstage or sideline others(unlike Legolas, who sidelines the dwarves so hard during one scene that he uses their heads as stepping-stone to shoot arrows at the orcs and the dwarves don't so much as complain), didn't make the plot serve her, and didn't really drive anyone aside from Kíli too out-of-character, aside from one odd moment of stalker!Legolas, so I say she's passable.
But Smaug was awesome, the spiders were awesome(and I liked the change they made so that instead of the spiders being able to talk all the time, Bilbo could only hear and understand their speech while he's touching the Ring, because it makes a bit more sense that way), I liked how some of the dwarves split off from the crowd in the Lake Town section so that there could be two groups doing two things, rather than one group with half a dozen redundant members, and all in all, I'm glad I watched it.
Oh, and a proposition for this movie's exclamation, in the vein of the "Flaming Denethor!" and "Radagast on a Bunny Sled!" Creative Curses from the previous two: Barrel-Busting Bombur! It's named for the scene where Bombur's barrel rolls out of the river, smashing up several orcs as it passes, immediately followed by Bombur busting his arms and legs out of the barrel, grabbing two axes that were tossed to him, and whaling on several more orcs that were unfortunate enough to be standing nearby. It's been a while since I read The Hobbit, but I think I'd remember if something like that was in there.
Honestly, though, it was one of my favorite scenes in the movie. It was just so over-the-top silly, and gave one of the dwarves something unique to do that didn't revolve around ascribed roles like "the old guy who knows things", "the stalwart leader", "the comic relief", or "the fanservice". At the same time, though, it's memorable and canon-incompatible enough to be given expression status, and it's alliterative, too, for an added bonus.
Alternatively, it could be something on how Smaug and Thranduil were constantly monologuing. I'm pretty sure that breaks canon, too, but it's not nearly as memorable.
I'd like to submit 'Pirouetting Legolas' for consideration.
Remember that bit? When he was standing on the dwarves' heads shooting Orcs, and then he takes his foot off one of them and legitimately does some sort of pirouette (aided by the barrel turning around, I think) while still standing on the other's head? That bit had me gaping at the screen and then laughing hysterically.
Pirouetting Legolas!
...I don't know...I think it could work...
Barrel-Busting Bombur sounds pretty awesome, by the way. Especially the alliteration. Although, something that's been puzzling me about that...if they're suddenly one barrel short, why doesn't that actually come up? If I remember correctly, Bombur just jumped back into an empty barrel, but I don't think I saw any of the others doubling up...
...the barrels respawn. That's the only explanation.
~DF
Y'know, I always thought Legolas did a lot of stuff to name a new Creative Curse. For example, I always thought why "Shield-Boarding Legolas!" wasn't considered.
'Pirouetting Legolas' sounds great. It actually works.
Respawning barrels? My glod, this reminds me so much of Minecraft. XD
"Feed each barrel with an apple. Each barrel which is fed its food will enter "love mode", preparing to breed with another barrel that is in "love mode". Barrels that are "in love mode" emit hearts constantly and will path towards nearby barrels that are also "in love mode." The two barrels will bob side by side for about two and a half seconds, and then a baby barrel of the same species spawns either in between the parents or on the same blocks as the parent that was spawned first, which ends love mode for the parents."~Adapted from the Minecraft Wiki
~Autumn
And you all may have a point about the sound of 'Pirouetting Legolas'. It did really catch my eye--because he was already stepping on the dwarves, and then he goes and *pirouettes*?! Well, I've been a dancer for a while (hobby more than something I want to do as a profession, but I've got about a decade's worth of lessons under my belt), and, well, the pirouette cracked me up. However, it is a bit more difficult to say...
How about 'Legolas on a dwarf!'? Or 'Dwarves as stepping stones!'?
I just really think that scene should be commemorated, because it was both hilarious and rather misplaced...and definitely one of the main 'are you *kidding me*?' moments of the film.
~DF
If you stuff things in them, they create more barrels.
This is what happens when I don't scroll down to the bottom of the Board on a regular basis. People start writing ficlets about the reproductive processes of barrels. I can only imagine the tales of ribaldry that spontaneously generate once a thread passes onto the second, or gods help us, the third page.
I don't know about "Pirouetting Legolas", actually. The word "pirouetting" sounds too soft in the mouth to be shouted out as a sudden, shocked response. At least "Barrel-Busting" has the same sort of harsh feel that words like "Glaurung" do. Plus, the pirouette wasn't all that distinctive, at least as a separate action from the rest Legolas's other hopping-around-on-dwarves sequence, and wouldn't likely be noticed in the same way one would notice Denethor on fire leaping from Minas Tirith or Radagast riding a toboggan pulled by unconvincing CGI giant rabbits. Bombur's barrel-busting, on the other hand, was much more noticeable.
But the scene it came from? Yeah. That scene was weird. The whole river scene was just unfiltered crazy compared to the rest of the movie, in fact. What I picked out from the Legolas sequence wasn't the pirouette, though, because as I said before, I didn't really even notice it. What I picked out was that the dwarves weren't even complaining or anything as he jumped off of them. I saw one make a distressed face as Legolas leg-stretched between his head and that of another dwarf, but that was it. It was as though they were deliberately suppressing their reactions so Legolas could have another "perfect" moment like his flawless scaling and execution of an oliphaunt in the Return of the King movie. It just bugged me. I mean, I know that about about half of those dwarves could be written out of the story and the audience would barely notice, since most of the viewing public will probably only remember the names of the dwarves that have speaking lines, but it's not good form to treat them in-universe as featureless lumps only existing to occupy space.
It was the product of sugar-rush, a sudden impulse to write something weird, and boredom.
Yeah, I agree. On hindsight, "pirouetting" seems too soft when spoken in harsh, loud tones. "Legolas Using Dwarves' Heads As Stepping Stones!" could've been considered, if only it weren't such a mouthful...unless it could be cut down further?
The Barrels Out of Bond scene was really crazy. We had the elves knowing the dwarves escaped (I'm actually quite alright with this; it's the next few points that bothers me), orcs in daylight, Legolas being speshul, Tauriel being speshul (although considerably less than Legolas), Kili being wounded by...by...a "Morgul-bladed arrow"? What, Peter Jackson.
That particular "Legolas Using Dwarves' Heads As Stepping Stones" bothered me more than all of his "perfect" moments. Yes, even more than that time in TTT when he "shield-boarded" down the stairs, reminding us of Captain America. At least when Legolas did the shield stunt in TTT and that slaying of the Oliphaunt (seriously, Legolas, you've got a bow, just shoot it in the eye!), I get the vague idea that a character was rolling their eyes off-camera. Plus, "That still only counts as one!". But for this...? It's like everyone's making way for him to be perfect. Because he can. Ugh.
~Autumn
What would have happened to them if they went out in daylight? It's not as though they would have turned to stone or anything; that would have made them absolutely terrible soldiers. If a battle went on until morning, and the orcs all melted or were petrified or otherwise became incapacitated, the forces of Sauron would have handed their enemies an easy victory. After that, all battles against the orcs would just be trying to keep them occupied as long as possible until the sun came up and they all keeled over, and that's definitely not the case. Heck, most of the battles in the Silmarillion and the big final showdown in Return of the King were fought in the daylight, and we didn't see the orcs having any problems then. Are orcs just pathologically afraid of bright lights?
Heh. It's funny; one of the main ways that I determined Tauriel wasn't a Sue despite her forced-in presence in the plot was "Well, she's not nearly as speshul as Legolas." Legolas, or at least movie Legolas, seems to have some sort of compulsion to show off how unnaturally skilled he is at every opportunity he gets. If Sauron could be killed by an arrow in the Eye, I'm willing to bet that Legolas would have tried to scale his tower just to find the single spot on the flaming spirit-eyeball that would bring down the Dark Lord, just so that he could look insufferably smug for about five seconds.
I agree with you on the morgul arrow thing. I'm not exactly a Tolkien scholar, but doesn't a morgul weapon turn its victim into a wraith, instead of poisoning them in a way that can only be healed by cramming some medicinal plants into the wound? How did cramming those plants into the leg wound even help Kíli at all? If the result of Frodo's stabbing in Fellowship is any indication, which it should be since it worked this way in both the book and the movie, a morgul weapon's curse is capable of affecting the victim's entire body. Frodo could hardly move after he'd been stabbed, but one might just be able to chalk down Kíli's continued activity to differences in biology. Regardless, if a poison that's been shown to behave like that has been running rampant in a victim's system for several days, it should be dealt with in a way that will affect more of the body than just the entry wound. It's basic toxicology.
Another "shield-boarding moment" I noticed in Desolation of Smaug was near the end, with Thorin. When the dwarves were making that titanic gold dwarf for ill-defined reasons, he finds a wheelbarrow, just somewhere, and then drives it into the molten metal, leaps into it, and rides it along the stream of liquid gold like it's a toboggan. If the metal was a high enough temperature to stay molten, wouldn't it melt holes in the bottom of the wheelbarrow and subsequently in Thorin's body? Who even keeps wheelbarrows in a forge? Why did Thorin feel that wheelbarrow-riding was even necessary? What did it accomplish?
Yes.
When Morgoth created the Orcs (however he did that), he did it in darkness - before the sun was created or even conceived. They were literally designed for unending night - and the rising of the sun terrified them.
It's significant that, in fact, almost none of the battles in the various books take place in full sunlight. In order:
-The First Battle of Beleriand: took place at Morgoth's return, decades before the sun rose.
-The Battle-under-Stars: as the name says, took place before the sun appeared.
-The Glorious Battle: heralded by Thangorodrim 'vomiting flame'; both Dark Lords really liked having pet volcanoes. It's not said how effective this was at darkening the sky, but this is one battle the Noldor won handily.
-The Sudden Flame: Morgoth learnt his lesson. Listen to this:
There came a time of winter, when night was dark and without moon... suddenly Morgoth sent forth great rivers of flame that ran down swifter than Balrogs from Thangorodrim, and poured over all the flame; and the Mountains of Iron belched forth fires of many poisonous hues, and the fume of them stank upon the air, and was deadly. Thus Ard-galen perished...
-Unnumbered Tears: The one battle where Morgoth didn't actually set the time, but he still prepared. Fingon looked towards Thangorodrim, and there was a dark cloud about it, and a black smoke went up... Furthermore, it's only when the Noldor are winning (Turgon rides to Fingon's side) that we hear about the sun. And this is the only battle not decided by force of arms - Morgoth won by treachery.
-The War of Wrath: there's so little detail here, but Morgoth threw everything at the Host of Valinor. If he didn't blot out the sun, he missed a trick.
Skipping ahead, there are three encounters with Orcs in The Hobbit (the book):
-In Goblin Town: When Bilbo escapes, the goblins close the door - they don't immediately follow. That's because the sun is out. When night falls...
-Fifteen Birds in Five Fir Trees: The goblins wait for night to fall before following. I believe the dwarves actually discuss this.
-The Battle of the Five Armies: pass. ;) I believe the bats are described as a very thick cloud, but I don't think they blotted out the sun.
And in Lord of the Rings:
-Moria: again, the Orcs don't follow the Fellowship out (indeed, they stop for a while a couple of bowshots from the wall to discuss Frodo's injury). The Fellowship have to run to Lorien, though, because when night falls - it's orcing time.
-The Three Hunters: here the Orcs do run in full daylight - because Ugluk is whipping them to force them to do so. 'We are the fighting Uruk-Hai!'
-The Hornburg: Night-time.
-The Pelennor and Dagorlad: Both of the final battles take place under Sauron's shadow. 'Tomorrow, there will be no dawn'. What exactly this shadow is isn't defined.
As regards the Hobbit movie: regardless of what the cinematography shows, it's worth noting that the 'murk' in Mirkwood isn't just metaphorical. The place is dark. So that running battle could easily have taken place.
In summary: yes, Orcs are pathologically afraid of sunlight. That's mythology for you.
hS
I dunno about that one, really. When orcs appear there always seem to be a certain darkness, a rain-cloud following them. Or at least that's how it feels. And there was still the "there will be no dawn" thing in RotK...yes, yes, I think you're absolutely right. But I dunno about why I said "orcs in daylight", really. Could be that they all look fancy and CGI-ed as a cartoon.
Yeah, Evangeline Lilly actually shows less compulsion to be "perfect" than Orlando Bloom. As far as I could tell from the production videos and behind-the-scenes look, and book-to-script explanations, most of the stunts were improvised by none other than Mr. Bloom himself. Mr. Bloom, may I just remind you Legolas was an extremely humble elf in the book, not the "look-at-me-I'm-an-elf!" person you portray.
Ha ha. They did something like that in a LotR parody video. Well, the way they suggested it should've ended is that Legolas, during the Council of Elrond, suggests he tie the Ring to an arrow and shoot it seven hundred miles to Mordor. Because Glaurung walking to Mordor, he's Legolas.
Yes, and if Frodo surviving the Morgul poison without being turned into a wraith for two weeks was already an amazing feat for Men, shouldn't Kili succumb to the poison much earlier? I know that dwarves are hardy and stubborn and all, but honestly, Mr. Jackson. Just so Athelas can save the day and Tauriel can do that "shining" thing like Arwen?
My theory about Thorin: Other than moose-races and wild parties, another national sport of Mirkwood is shield-boarding, popularised by its very own Prince Legolas. Thorin, apparently, saw this sport during the "Feast of Starlight" or Whatever-it-is-called-in-Sindarin Festival (does it even exist? I haven't read the Silm in such a long time...), and set out to prove that not all dwarves are incapable of shield-boarding. ;D
~Autumn
and thought,"OMG! THE HOBBIT WAS AWESOME!" Well, she's not into the Tolkien fandom, but she is a fangirl anyway. So...apparently she thought Tauriel was awesome, "not a Sue", because she [SPOILER ALERT!] healed Kili when he was "mortally wounded" (oh, of course the "hot dwarf" must be wounded, Jackson. And healed with Athelas.) and defied Thranduil's orders to go kill orcs in Laketown with Legolas. [END SPOILER] But then, my friends actually wouldn't recognise a Sue even if it's dancing naked in front of them.
She also thought Legolas has the most swag in the world. Er...
I'm still apprehensive, with the number of spoilers and reviews I read about the Movie "dividing the Movie fans and the purists more than ever", and the Movie would "cause heated debates among fans for years". Plus, my friend enjoyed the movie as another movie, without having read the books.
~Autumn
I'm going to give my full thoughts a few days, a) for them to gather better and b) so people have a reasonable chance at catching the film before I go all critic-y, but while I liked a fair bit of it it felt somehow underwhelming. A lot of moments where I went "Really, Jackson?" or "That's it?"