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I think what you're referring to is in Neshome's email chain.

Bramandin wasn't just a sock, but a mental state as well. While not perfect, I was in the mode of "the past doesn't exist."

I didn't have to have problems with the permission prompts as Bramandin. I could have changed a character who wouldn't do something into one that would.

When I refer to zdimensia as a myth, I am talking about the deliberate jerk that you believed her to be.

On rereading, I don't see what I thought I saw - I was reading this post and this post to suggest that they were doing something different with zdimensia, to specifically test the waters around Permission. But I'm not seeing that now, and I don't think it's there to be found.

I still don't think Article 14 is applicable here, at least in spirit - I'd always thought of that one as specifically to be thrown at sockpuppets, and that ban-dodging with a new name was just Understood To Be Bad.

I also don't think it's a terribly important technicality to get caught up in - it's not the point that your posts or mine hinge on.

What makes you think zdimensia existed as an attempt to prove a point? I was under the impression that zdimensia was just their normal screen name so, if I missed something, I'd like to know.

-Phobos

Spoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler blockSpoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler block

Did something happen to Hagrid's hand?

...are very divided. I shall present these as a dialogue with myself:

Delta: I think Tomash has a point. I don't think Bram is acting maliciously, and... this smells a bit witch-hunt-y.

Juliette: But on the other hand, I agree with Phobos, from a constitutional analysis, some pretty fundamental behavioral guidelines for the community have been solidly broken.

Delta: To pick a specific point, I think that Phobos's charge of sockpuppeting, though technically true, is both past the statute of limitations and wasn't done maliciously - zdimensia existed as an attempt to prove a point, if I'm reading Bram correctly. And... that's been a thing that's been done before, IIRC. hS has done so, I have done so, a couple Veteran Members of the Community have created sockpuppets for the specific purpose of stepping completely outside of oldbie privilege and throwing their voice into the milieu to see what happened.

Juliette: Sure... but that was done for specific purposes, and when the experiment ended (days later, rather than years!), the experiment was explained and data was discussed.

Delta: To expand back out to a more general argument, I don't think that Bram has done anything out of active malice - the heat of the moment seems to be a longer-lived concept for her, and she lacks communication skills that those of us who are closer to neurotypicality have, but... that's not being malicious. Should we really ban someone for Not Getting It?

Juliette: But that's it. She Doesn't Get It, or so it seems, and that includes not working with the many people who have offered to help. And that's not something we can fix - I deeply appreciate the PPC's utility over the years as a space where we have helped people become more mature, understand themselves, and so on, but that process is voluntary and I don't see Bram accepting that help.

Both: Bottom line, I don't think that her being here, in her current state, is good for her or for the community. It's not an at-fault situation, it's a fundamental mismatch of communication skills and technologies.

Ideally, I would like Bram to work with a mentor/advisor on communication skills. It could be one of us. It could be me! I've volunteered, she knows how to poke me on Discord. I would like her to acknowledge that she needs some guardrails, that this chunk of road is twistier for her than it is for other people. I would like to see her learn, and grow, and become an awesome member of this community.

But I don't think we're in an ideal situation. I really, really dislike swinging the banhammer in this case, it's not at all as clear-cut as ypurs were. But I believe that the current situation should not be allowed to continue. I believe we have given enough offers of help, given enough additional chances, had enough of this sort of conversation.

Ultimately, I believe that a banning may be necessary, in the interest of cutting off an interaction that is clearly hurting Bram as well as the rest of us.

You were right when you said Charlotte would not be accepted.

(My bad, I missed a tag in the copy-paste)

Subject: I don't like where this is going

A lot of people are seeing Bram as someone who's manipulating the community (see, for example, in the post I'm replying to, Miah's description of Bram's recent posts as trying to bait people into letting her get away with her behavior). I, in what might be a fit of unfounded optimism, don't see it.

I see that Bramadin has a very poor understanding of the typical social protocols we, as a community, expect people to generally follow. This lack of understanding is severe enough that I don't think Bram can have many healthy interactions with the community at this time. Bram, I think it would be best for you to take some time off from here, go get the help with social interaction that we aren't equipped to provide, and then return here if you still want to. Heck, it might even be useful to talk to someone more equipped to help you about all this.

I was going to call for Bram to retract (or at least stop pressing) her claims that we were intentionally being abusive during the Permission process, but she's already done that. (Incidentally, I think the second post I linked there is evidence for very confused!Bram).

I think an apology, or at least an admission of wrongdoing, is is order for the manipulation of the Permission process. However, I'm retracting my call for a Permission revocation, since, having thought it over, the broader category of "fraud upon the Permission Givers" (for example, putting together a Permission Request intending to write a pair of very Suvian/grimdark/... agents instead of the more reasonable characters described in the request) I was thinking of is very slippery and either leads to revocations for "bad writing" or is impossible to prosecute unless someone admits to doing it. Either way, it's bad (or, at best, useless) precedent, so let's not go there.

Back to the main point, I don't think that Bram's conduct is banworthy (even though it isn't good). Banning someone is, from what I can tell, for when their behavior significantly harms the continued proper functioning of the community. For example, unapologetic bigotry is banworthy because it makes large swaths of people (either who are here or who might be here) feel sufficiently unwelcome that it freezes them out of the community.

From this perspective, the question is whether Bramadin's profound lack of understanding of the norms of neurotypical social interaction, which is an effect of her mental illness and which (from what I can see) she is attempting to remedy, has enough of a negative impact on other people's use of the community to justify hurling her out the door forever. (The word "use" in the previous sentence is meant to draw an analogy to the "use" of a real-life bulletin board or park). I don't think it is, and so I'm still voting against a ban. (To be clear, I think the recent harassment situation has been resolved, partly by hanging that temporary ban over Bram's head, so I don't think there's still something banworthy there.)

I also don't like how this ban vote would generalize. For example, I think charges like this could be leveled against Scapegrace, and I don't think she's earned a ban either.

- Tomash

A lot of people are seeing Bram as someone who's manipulating the community (see, for example, in the post I'm replying to, Miah's description of Bram's recent posts as trying to bait people into letting her get away with her behavior). I, in what might be a fit of unfounded optimism, don't see it.

I see that Bramadin has a very poor understanding of the typical social protocols we, as a community, expect people to generally follow. This lack of understanding is severe enough that I don't think Bram can have many healthy interactions with the community at this time. Bram, I think it would be best for you to take some time off from here, go get the help with social interaction that we aren't equipped to provide, and then return here if you still want to. Heck, it might even be useful to talk to someone more equipped to help you about all this.

I was going to call for Bram to retract (or at least stop pressing) her claims that we were intentionally being abusive during the Permission process, but she's
Back to the main point, I don't think that Bram's conduct is banworthy (even though it isn't good). Banning someone is, from what I can tell, for when their behavior significantly harms the continued proper functioning of the community. For example, unapologetic bigotry is banworthy because it makes large swaths of people (either who are here or who might be here) feel sufficiently unwelcome that it freezes them out of the community.

From this perspective, the question is whether Bramadin's profound lack of understanding of the norms of neurotypical social interaction, which is an effect of her mental illness and which (from what I can see) she is attempting to remedy, has enough of a negative impact on other people's use of the community to justify hurling her out the door forever. (The word "use" in the previous sentence is meant to draw an analogy to the "use" of a real-life bulletin board or park). I don't think it is, and so I'm still voting against a ban. (To be clear, I think the recent harassment situation has been resolved, partly by hanging that temporary ban over Bram's head, so I don't think there's still something banworthy there.)

I also don't like how this ban vote would generalize. For example, I think charges like this could be leveled against Scapegrace, and I don't think she's earned a ban either.

- Tomash

(Delta's note: Expect a reply from me in the near future!)

Charlotte is a Meyerpire. However, I don't think she'd end up being accepted.

My theory is that you are inviting people who are 'hybrids', with a 'robot-X' being an accepted variant. With that in mind, I put forth Percy Jackson.

Sorry! People who are on the denied list are:

Ken Kaneki
Lelouch
Rick Jones
Mary Poppins
Yang Xiao Lang
Aradia Medigo

Again, sorry about that!

Accepted:

Sendak (New Voltron)
Cyborg (Teen Titans)
Vriska Serket (Homestuck)
Edward Elric
Rainbow Dash (Alternate Timeline- War with Sombra)
Hagrid
Meta-Crisis Doctor (Doctor Who)
Magnus Bane (Shadowhunters)
Ken Kaneki (Tokyo Ghoul)
Lelouch (Code Geass)
Mister Silver (Treasure Planet)
Junkrat and Torbjörn (Overwatch)
Donald Pierce (Logan)
Gazelle (Kingsman)


Denied:

Rick Jones
Mary Poppins (movie version)
Yang Xiao Lang
Aradia Megido

However, Shiro (New Voltron) can!

Spoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler blockSpoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler block

---

Relevant link. http://marvelanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Episode:Innocent_Blood

I think the clue is motorcycle ownership.

I am sorry that there is a disconnect between my taking-in of the opinions of others, and showing the respect. I do care, for what it's worth. That's probably why I'm so bothered by this.

I am confused at how I wasn't wronged and I wronged others. Is it intention, because I hadn't meant harm.

I am sorry for lying. I am sorry for breaking an unjust sentence.

I have apologized before for being brusque with Neshome.

I apologize for how it seems I'm using autism as a shield. I take criticism and do my best to follow it even when I make new mistakes.

I am listening. I am sorry that it doesn't come through.

I am making an effort to improve myself. I am growing past the injustice even as we speak. I apologize for how it appears.

I disagree that the community would be harmed by letting me stay. I am forgiving everyone. It would be worse to discard a person because of mistakes.

Have a sparkly urple ink pen. Your agents aren't allowed to use it to fill out mission reports.

What is your favorite spinoff? I'm a fan of Trojie and Paddlebrains.

Alright then, so:
Halloween is not a continuum, it has no OFU, and we don't know who came up with the idea. So if I want to add it to the "Minis" wiki page, what should I do?

Magnus Bane could come, I'm on the fence about Ken Kaneki, but I think I'm going to say no, I don't think Lelouche could come, and you'd need to tell me more about Agent Charlotte.

Here have this replica of the One Ring that allows you to speak with cats, as your newbie gift!

I hope you're enjoying them so far!

And sorry, but that wasn't me and I don't know who did come up with the idea. I've actually contributed very little original stuff to the PPC. ^^;

In that case, pardon as I steal from Matt Cipher and ask, could Magnus Bane (The Mortal Instruments/The Shadowhunter Chronicles) come? How about... mmm... Ken Kaneki (Tokyo Ghoul, potential gore warning)? Or... let's see... Lelouch vi Britannia (Code Geass)? Or Iximaz's Agent Charlotte?

I like Minecraft and most mods related to it, and I also enjoy the Warriors books.