The PPC Posting Board - Latest posts

Okay, so the main thing is that this situation with Bramandrin is actually very much reminding me of someone I used to know in the FBA (who I won't name here: if you want to find out more, you can DM me on Discord for more specific details). I actually mentioned this to Tomash on Discord a couple days back, but I'd actually describe this person as "Bramandrin, with a much better grasp of social norms and a huge anger management problem". The other main difference I can think of was that the person in question was also allowed to get into a position of authority there, and I will say, that wreaked havoc on everything: when this person finally left the FBA, they did so in an outburst of drama fueled by something that I won't talk about here (mostly because it is an incredibly long story that's not relevant to this, and partly because this person had also quit the position of authority in question twice in a row over much less anyhow).

So you might be wondering what the common thread here is. Well... for me, judging from things Bramandrin said in a previous thread related to this, these two people both suffer from untreated mental illness of some variety, and it is mental illness that, to be honest, does require professional psychiatric help. Anyone who tells Bram she doesn't need the psychiatric help is willfully deceiving either her or themselves at this point.

So my suggestion is this: regardless of whether or not Bram gets banned, my previous experiences make me feel it will be to both her and the PPC community's benefit if she seeks out psychiatric help. And Bram, if you read this, I know you may think you may not need the help, but trust me: you need the help. Your behavior is not normal, and psychiatric help can give you a better idea of how to excise your present unacceptable behaviors. This was something the former FBAer in question really should have gotten years ago, and I'm going to mention it here before we get too far down the rabbit hole of banning folks.

The issue is, I don't know if this is something we can necessarily enforce. But no matter the case, I really honestly think this is the only way forward in this case. If that doesn't work, who knows, but I know from past experience that if she doesn't get help, it could be a bigger thorn in the PPC's side than I really think you guys want.

-Herr

Why do you call your ban from when you were posting as zdimensia unjust?

I just want to hear exactly why it was unjust from your point of view. I don't want to hear "zdimensia is this, but Bramandin is that". I just want to hear a truthful answer to my question. If you don't feel comfortable answering this on the board then you can email it to me, my email is clickable.

Novastorme

Yep, we're back again. This is the thread for you - whether you be the newest member (that'd be laggycat) or the oldest oldbie (hi, Kaitlyn!) to talk about the week we've just had. Discuss anything and everything, and remember to have fun!

Please remember that, when it comes to the state of the world, not everyone will agree with you. You're free to state, discuss, and defend your viewpoint (provided it does not violate the Constitution), but please don't use that fact to attack others.

Fandom News


(Link)

This week is the 40th anniversary of the release of Star Wars: A New Hope. In honour of that, Vanity Fair released an anniversary edition, complete with four gorgeous covers featuring the cast of The Last Jedi. We have one with Rey and Luke on their island, one of helmetless!Phasma, scarred!Kylo, and slimy!Hux, one of Poe, Finn, BB-8, and new character Rose Tico... and one of General Leia Organa. Dangit, now I'm sad again. :(

Silly News


(Old books & old phones)

Eight years ago, someone borrowed a book by Roderick Bailey from Dudley library, in England. This week, they finally returned it... to Boone County library, Kentucky, USA.

Nobody knows how or why this happened, it's really surreal. Dudley library's theory is that they were worried about the overdue fine - but as they point out, that's actually capped at £4 anyway. ^_^ (You'll be pleased to know they've said Boone County can keep the book.)

Meanwhile, Nokia are even more out of date - they've just made a new version of a phone they phased out in 2005. Yes, the 3310 is back, complete with rubber buttons, no touchscreen, and... Snake! Well, I'm sold. :D

Serious News


(Link)

On Monday evening, a concert in Manchester, England, was attacked by a suicide bomber. 22 people died, mostly young people, including one eight-year-old.

The UK terror threat level has been raised to critical, and the police have made at least eight arrests connected with the attack. Meanwhile, there's been controversy: the bomber's name was shared with the US government, and leaked to the US media despite the police not being ready for it to be made public yet. Photos of evidence from the crime scene have also been leaked in the same way; coming on the back of Trump's provision of highly classified intelligence to Russia (which is widely accepted as having burned a key intel source), it's no surprise that we've now chosen to stop sharing any information on the attack with America.

The (suspected) bomber, Salman Abedi, was 22 years old, British-born and of Libyan descent. I have absolutely no idea what has to be going through your mind to lead you to blow yourself up to kill children, and frankly, I'm glad I don't understand it. I don't want to.

In some ways, this is worse than the 7/7 attack back in '05. That had a higher death toll, but at least it felt like an attack on infrastructure - it struck at the trains, the buses, trying to paralyse the capital. This... is just horrific.

Not News



Just one of the many moments from the party I threw, inspired by this conversation with Iximaz. :)

hS

It had been quite some time since Selene Windflower had last needed to take a shower - it wasn't like she could sweat, after all. But the Mysterious Case of the Exploding Wraith (as Kaitlyn insisted on calling their last mission) had covered both agents in glitter, which Kaitlyn flatly refused to get all over the feeble shower in their RC. It had taken a fair amount of badgering, but eventually Selene had agreed to accompany her over to the washrooms.

Which didn't mean Kaitlyn was entirely satisfied. "You're going to shower wearing that?" she demanded as the vampire stepped out of her changing booth.

Selene looked down at her bathing suit. "What's wrong with it?"

"It's… you… compare and contrast, okay?" Kaitlyn waved a hand down her own front. "Bikini. Lots of skin. Easy to clean. Whereas you… sweet Nessa, would it kill you to show your knees?"

"It's all I've got," Selene said with a shrug, plucking at the neck-to-calf costume. "I've not really needed swimming clothes for… a long time." She reached up and brushed her fingers over the brass mechanisms on the side of her face. "I'm still not convinced this is a good idea."

"You'll be fine. C'mon." Kaitlyn grabbed her partner by the elbow and dragged her towards the glass door into the shower room. "I've checked, and they definitely don't use holy water."

"Oh, joy, something else to worry about. You do know how to make me feel bucksome." Selene pushed the door open and peered into the steam, her hand creeping up to the brass Key again. "Are you sure…?"

"Quit being such a wet blanket." Kaitlyn planted her hands on her partner's back and shoved, sending the vampire stumbling into the showers. "Pun intended."

Selene tensed as the hot water splashed over her, but when nothing seemed to happen she allowed herself to relax a little. "I suppose it isn't too bad," she allowed, stepping gingerly into the flow. "And it will be easier than rinsing my hair in the sink."

"That's the spirit." Kaitlyn gave her a thumbs up. "Maybe we'll even get to introduce you to soap."

"You are a very cheeky young whippy." Selene tipped her head back, letting the water run down her face. "Now hush and let me enjoy-"

"Seleeene." The word drifted through the steam, its origin invisible. "Seleeeeeene…"

The vampire peered into the fog at the vague figure across the room. "Yes?" she asked. "Do I know you?"

"Of cooourse you know me." The figure advanced through the swirling heat, coming into focus: tall and pale, her long dark hair covering one side of her face, a strange light in her eyes. "I'm youuu, Selene," she said, and grinned, baring a pair of sharp fangs.

Selene's hand whipped up to the Key. "No," she whispered, staring at the advancing apparition. "You can't be." Her shoulders trembled, the red glow of her eyes flaring up. "You can't be," she repeated, raising one shaking hand. A dull boom rattled the shower heads, as of distant thunder. "Go away," Selene ground out, "go away, go away-!"

"Selene!" Kaitlyn lunged across the room and grabbed her partner's outstretched arm. "Selene! Calm down! What's wrong?"

Selene stared unseeing over her shoulder. "They were gone," she mumbled, "I escaped them, but she's back, I'm back, I can't-"

Kaitlyn glanced back at the figure, which had come to a stop a few paces away. "Oh, take those things out, Hypatia," she snapped. "Can't you see you're freaking her out?"

The apparition cocked its head, then reached up and removed the set of cheap plastic fake fangs from her mouth. "Well, that's just silly," she said. "Like, a vampire scared of vampires? What's even with that?"

"That's clearly not what this is." Kaitlyn stepped in front of Selene and took hold of both her shoulders. "Hey," she said, shaking her gently, "snap out of it. It's Hypatia. You remember, the Arwen clone?"

Selene looked from Kaitlyn to Hypatia, then back again. The fire faded from her eyes. "You can see her?" she asked in a quavering voice. "She's not me?"

"Of course not." Kaitlyn patted her shoulder. "She just had silly costume teeth in, that's all." She shot a glare at the other woman. "Why she felt the need to follow us here to try and frighten you, I don't even want to guess."

"Hey, no fair!" Hypatia pouted at her. "I was here first. I just thought, when the vampire walked in, it'd be, like, funny. And I had the teeth in already, so…"

Kaitlyn blinked. "Why did you have vampire teeth in the shower? No, actually, forge-"

"There was this party," Hypatia interrupted, "out in New Cal, and I had like the best costume. Only I spilled the punchbowl when I tried to drink it, so I had to come and have a shower. That's called logic," she finished, fixing the shorter woman with a defiant look.

Kaitlyn sighed and shook her head. "It's called something," she muttered. "See, Selene? It was a joke. Just a silly joke."

The vampire finally tore her gaze away from Hypatia and met her partner's eyes. "It wasn't funny."

"Never said it was." Kaitlyn patted her shoulder vaguely and stepped back. "But can you stop looking so worried? It's making me want to hug you, and that's doing weird things to my head."

Selene managed a slight smile, and stepped back under the flow of the shower. "Okay," she whispered, pressing her hand over the gleaming clockwork Key. "Okay okay okay. I'm in control. I'm me. There is no other. Okay. Yes. Okay."

She closed her eyes, and for about twenty seconds stood absolutely still as the hot water tumbled over her shoulders. Then she nodded, looked at her partner, and smiled.

"Did you say something about soap? I think I'm ready to learn."

---

I deliberately made this 'prank' one that would push Selene's buttons (see here for the details on why), because it seems like you think vampires have to be inhuman monsters who are on a hair-trigger. I wanted to show something different. (And frankly, if you don't think you can write a vampire who doesn't straight-up murder anyone who looks sideways at her, I don't know why you'd want to write her at all.)

Selene's Victorian swimsuit was born as a counter to the fact that I'd just written the pair of them going into the shower; I didn't think nudity was particularly appropriate. I may have slightly overcompensated by covering her up so much, but it made for some interesting dialogue. I can also come up with at least three reasons for Selene to prefer that kind of swimwear, based on her personality and history; you can probably think up some of your own. One hallmark of a good writer is knowing when you don't have to say something.

Hypatia was perfect for this job; she's a ditz. If I hadn't had her to hand, I might have used Tia Hyrax; she's thirteen, so would be more playful about it, but could still have done the same thing.

I'm mostly happy with this fic. The main bit I have issue with is the very end - it's intended as Selene playfully (as much as she can) calling back to Kaitlyn's comments to let her know that she's okay, but I think it comes over as too serious. I'm nearly certain Selene used to shower all the time before she went loopy and wound up with the Key.

The one thing I didn't manage to squeeze in was Kaitlyn's comment on Selene's costume: "At least it's not black." Because it's not - it's red with little pastel-pink flowers all over it. It's a nice moment, and I have various scraps of writing which mention Sel's love for red-and-pink-flowered underclothes, but ultimately it didn't fit the story. Not everything has to go in every time.

As before, concrit is always welcome. :)

hS

I mean, first off: I'm not going to vote against a ban. I just don't think I could vote for it.

I think the problem I have with your post is that you're stretching the definitions of all the Articles you point at. I flat-out disagree with characterising accusing people of mistreating you as flaming; the others (apart from Article 8, which I will readily allow) really do feel like you're stretching for a reason to ban somebody you want gone. It doesn't feel like "wow, that's a constitutional violation, we need to get this person out because they're messing up the community"; it feels like "wow, this person's irritating, let's boot them".

I'm not saying that's what you're thinking. And like I said, I think it would be best all round if she just left. But that's how it feels.

Remember that, as zdimensia, she was far more aggressive in her accusations, much less coherent, and far less willing to even attempt apologies. But she was banned for racism.

hS

Have a pile of pens

I really appreciate your contribution, actually.

I think what you're referring to is in Neshome's email chain.

Bramandin wasn't just a sock, but a mental state as well. While not perfect, I was in the mode of "the past doesn't exist."

I didn't have to have problems with the permission prompts as Bramandin. I could have changed a character who wouldn't do something into one that would.

When I refer to zdimensia as a myth, I am talking about the deliberate jerk that you believed her to be.

On rereading, I don't see what I thought I saw - I was reading this post and this post to suggest that they were doing something different with zdimensia, to specifically test the waters around Permission. But I'm not seeing that now, and I don't think it's there to be found.

I still don't think Article 14 is applicable here, at least in spirit - I'd always thought of that one as specifically to be thrown at sockpuppets, and that ban-dodging with a new name was just Understood To Be Bad.

I also don't think it's a terribly important technicality to get caught up in - it's not the point that your posts or mine hinge on.

What makes you think zdimensia existed as an attempt to prove a point? I was under the impression that zdimensia was just their normal screen name so, if I missed something, I'd like to know.

-Phobos

Spoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler blockSpoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler block

Did something happen to Hagrid's hand?

...are very divided. I shall present these as a dialogue with myself:

Delta: I think Tomash has a point. I don't think Bram is acting maliciously, and... this smells a bit witch-hunt-y.

Juliette: But on the other hand, I agree with Phobos, from a constitutional analysis, some pretty fundamental behavioral guidelines for the community have been solidly broken.

Delta: To pick a specific point, I think that Phobos's charge of sockpuppeting, though technically true, is both past the statute of limitations and wasn't done maliciously - zdimensia existed as an attempt to prove a point, if I'm reading Bram correctly. And... that's been a thing that's been done before, IIRC. hS has done so, I have done so, a couple Veteran Members of the Community have created sockpuppets for the specific purpose of stepping completely outside of oldbie privilege and throwing their voice into the milieu to see what happened.

Juliette: Sure... but that was done for specific purposes, and when the experiment ended (days later, rather than years!), the experiment was explained and data was discussed.

Delta: To expand back out to a more general argument, I don't think that Bram has done anything out of active malice - the heat of the moment seems to be a longer-lived concept for her, and she lacks communication skills that those of us who are closer to neurotypicality have, but... that's not being malicious. Should we really ban someone for Not Getting It?

Juliette: But that's it. She Doesn't Get It, or so it seems, and that includes not working with the many people who have offered to help. And that's not something we can fix - I deeply appreciate the PPC's utility over the years as a space where we have helped people become more mature, understand themselves, and so on, but that process is voluntary and I don't see Bram accepting that help.

Both: Bottom line, I don't think that her being here, in her current state, is good for her or for the community. It's not an at-fault situation, it's a fundamental mismatch of communication skills and technologies.

Ideally, I would like Bram to work with a mentor/advisor on communication skills. It could be one of us. It could be me! I've volunteered, she knows how to poke me on Discord. I would like her to acknowledge that she needs some guardrails, that this chunk of road is twistier for her than it is for other people. I would like to see her learn, and grow, and become an awesome member of this community.

But I don't think we're in an ideal situation. I really, really dislike swinging the banhammer in this case, it's not at all as clear-cut as ypurs were. But I believe that the current situation should not be allowed to continue. I believe we have given enough offers of help, given enough additional chances, had enough of this sort of conversation.

Ultimately, I believe that a banning may be necessary, in the interest of cutting off an interaction that is clearly hurting Bram as well as the rest of us.

You were right when you said Charlotte would not be accepted.

(My bad, I missed a tag in the copy-paste)

Subject: I don't like where this is going

A lot of people are seeing Bram as someone who's manipulating the community (see, for example, in the post I'm replying to, Miah's description of Bram's recent posts as trying to bait people into letting her get away with her behavior). I, in what might be a fit of unfounded optimism, don't see it.

I see that Bramadin has a very poor understanding of the typical social protocols we, as a community, expect people to generally follow. This lack of understanding is severe enough that I don't think Bram can have many healthy interactions with the community at this time. Bram, I think it would be best for you to take some time off from here, go get the help with social interaction that we aren't equipped to provide, and then return here if you still want to. Heck, it might even be useful to talk to someone more equipped to help you about all this.

I was going to call for Bram to retract (or at least stop pressing) her claims that we were intentionally being abusive during the Permission process, but she's already done that. (Incidentally, I think the second post I linked there is evidence for very confused!Bram).

I think an apology, or at least an admission of wrongdoing, is is order for the manipulation of the Permission process. However, I'm retracting my call for a Permission revocation, since, having thought it over, the broader category of "fraud upon the Permission Givers" (for example, putting together a Permission Request intending to write a pair of very Suvian/grimdark/... agents instead of the more reasonable characters described in the request) I was thinking of is very slippery and either leads to revocations for "bad writing" or is impossible to prosecute unless someone admits to doing it. Either way, it's bad (or, at best, useless) precedent, so let's not go there.

Back to the main point, I don't think that Bram's conduct is banworthy (even though it isn't good). Banning someone is, from what I can tell, for when their behavior significantly harms the continued proper functioning of the community. For example, unapologetic bigotry is banworthy because it makes large swaths of people (either who are here or who might be here) feel sufficiently unwelcome that it freezes them out of the community.

From this perspective, the question is whether Bramadin's profound lack of understanding of the norms of neurotypical social interaction, which is an effect of her mental illness and which (from what I can see) she is attempting to remedy, has enough of a negative impact on other people's use of the community to justify hurling her out the door forever. (The word "use" in the previous sentence is meant to draw an analogy to the "use" of a real-life bulletin board or park). I don't think it is, and so I'm still voting against a ban. (To be clear, I think the recent harassment situation has been resolved, partly by hanging that temporary ban over Bram's head, so I don't think there's still something banworthy there.)

I also don't like how this ban vote would generalize. For example, I think charges like this could be leveled against Scapegrace, and I don't think she's earned a ban either.

- Tomash

A lot of people are seeing Bram as someone who's manipulating the community (see, for example, in the post I'm replying to, Miah's description of Bram's recent posts as trying to bait people into letting her get away with her behavior). I, in what might be a fit of unfounded optimism, don't see it.

I see that Bramadin has a very poor understanding of the typical social protocols we, as a community, expect people to generally follow. This lack of understanding is severe enough that I don't think Bram can have many healthy interactions with the community at this time. Bram, I think it would be best for you to take some time off from here, go get the help with social interaction that we aren't equipped to provide, and then return here if you still want to. Heck, it might even be useful to talk to someone more equipped to help you about all this.

I was going to call for Bram to retract (or at least stop pressing) her claims that we were intentionally being abusive during the Permission process, but she's
Back to the main point, I don't think that Bram's conduct is banworthy (even though it isn't good). Banning someone is, from what I can tell, for when their behavior significantly harms the continued proper functioning of the community. For example, unapologetic bigotry is banworthy because it makes large swaths of people (either who are here or who might be here) feel sufficiently unwelcome that it freezes them out of the community.

From this perspective, the question is whether Bramadin's profound lack of understanding of the norms of neurotypical social interaction, which is an effect of her mental illness and which (from what I can see) she is attempting to remedy, has enough of a negative impact on other people's use of the community to justify hurling her out the door forever. (The word "use" in the previous sentence is meant to draw an analogy to the "use" of a real-life bulletin board or park). I don't think it is, and so I'm still voting against a ban. (To be clear, I think the recent harassment situation has been resolved, partly by hanging that temporary ban over Bram's head, so I don't think there's still something banworthy there.)

I also don't like how this ban vote would generalize. For example, I think charges like this could be leveled against Scapegrace, and I don't think she's earned a ban either.

- Tomash

(Delta's note: Expect a reply from me in the near future!)

Charlotte is a Meyerpire. However, I don't think she'd end up being accepted.

My theory is that you are inviting people who are 'hybrids', with a 'robot-X' being an accepted variant. With that in mind, I put forth Percy Jackson.

Sorry! People who are on the denied list are:

Ken Kaneki
Lelouch
Rick Jones
Mary Poppins
Yang Xiao Lang
Aradia Medigo

Again, sorry about that!

Accepted:

Sendak (New Voltron)
Cyborg (Teen Titans)
Vriska Serket (Homestuck)
Edward Elric
Rainbow Dash (Alternate Timeline- War with Sombra)
Hagrid
Meta-Crisis Doctor (Doctor Who)
Magnus Bane (Shadowhunters)
Ken Kaneki (Tokyo Ghoul)
Lelouch (Code Geass)
Mister Silver (Treasure Planet)
Junkrat and Torbjörn (Overwatch)
Donald Pierce (Logan)
Gazelle (Kingsman)


Denied:

Rick Jones
Mary Poppins (movie version)
Yang Xiao Lang
Aradia Megido

However, Shiro (New Voltron) can!

Spoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler blockSpoiler SPOILER spoiler spoilER SPOILer sPoIlEr SpOiLeR spOILer Spoilerman Does Whatever A Spoiler Can don't spoil my er How do you solve a problem like a spoiler? Spoi spoi spoi spoi spoiler SPAAAAAAAACE! Sorry about him. ~spoiler block

---

Relevant link. http://marvelanimated.wikia.com/wiki/Episode:Innocent_Blood

I think the clue is motorcycle ownership.

I am sorry that there is a disconnect between my taking-in of the opinions of others, and showing the respect. I do care, for what it's worth. That's probably why I'm so bothered by this.

I am confused at how I wasn't wronged and I wronged others. Is it intention, because I hadn't meant harm.

I am sorry for lying. I am sorry for breaking an unjust sentence.

I have apologized before for being brusque with Neshome.

I apologize for how it seems I'm using autism as a shield. I take criticism and do my best to follow it even when I make new mistakes.

I am listening. I am sorry that it doesn't come through.

I am making an effort to improve myself. I am growing past the injustice even as we speak. I apologize for how it appears.

I disagree that the community would be harmed by letting me stay. I am forgiving everyone. It would be worse to discard a person because of mistakes.