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Dunno how possible that is! I know there are people who, assuming we're using GDocs, I'd recognise their accounts in a second, and people who'd recognise mine. Not even to mention distinctive sorts of things in writing styles, or whatnot.

There's a lot of people whose accounts I wouldn't recognise, of course, and I'd argue that the distinctive writing style stuff makes up for that, but I very specifically remember getting fooled by that one anonymous vampire-guy story you wrote a bit back. Got me good. To be fair, I am pretty dumb. But, still, I wonder if that's really possible, or entirely needed? The randomising of betas for stories seems to fulfil a lot of the unbiased-ness stuff, anyhow.

I mean, it probably is possible and I'm completely blind to it. Changing accounts or whatnot.

Your statement that 'nor is it entirely your problem' suggests to me that it's at least partly my (/our) problem, and that means I should take some part in dealing with it. Do you have any suggestions as to how I might do that?

For the record: I was very new to the PPC when Thalia Weaver's actions sparked a massive row. As it happens, Kaitlyn has preserved the fact that not only did I enter into the debate, I did so with a position which I felt was at odds with the Board as a whole, and which would likely lead to me being attacked. So yeah... you don't have to be an oldbie to stand up when you think something's wrong.

hS

He indicates that he is willing to accept the proposal of the two of them completely ignoring each other.

This post should not be interpreted as me supporting or rejecting any proposals, including the one mentioned, nor as indicating that the PPC community is not entitled to continue to discuss and make decisions concerning this matter.

hS

Finals, job hunting, bills, uuuuuuuuuugh.

Well, you know what I mean. I was referring to people like Doclit who have called me such right to my face, but also saying that literally by definition that was what people were calling me by calling me disingenous and manipulative. Key word was, of course.

Re: "manipulative liar", I was saying the accusations of disingenuousness and manipulative behaviour were themselves, in effect, people calling me a manipulative liar.

Doclit is one of the people who has outright called me a liar in the past. Primarily, with people who are obviously insincere, I meant Scapegrace. Literally all she does in this community is attack people, get told "don't do that", give some half-hearted apology, then go right back to it the next time she decides to join in a discussion. This has been a pattern for years, and all that's ever done the latest time she decides to up and insult or go after people for no reason is she's told "please cut it out". She doesn't apologise for how she acts or treats people, she dismisses it out of hand and goes right back to it as soon as people are done tut-tutting about it. Her "oh I'm a hypocrite" spiel is far less sincere than any apology I have made.

As for the rest, it seems pretty well covered.

First, what you've said here isn't "mostly useless". Among other things, the middlebie perspective hasn't been brought up in this thread much at all, and it's a useful perspective that needs to be more exposed. Thank you for making this comment.

On Granz, I also agree that he wasn't doing anything malicious. I do have to admit that it set off more or less all the alarm bells (it was, after all, a second chat with implications of it being an anti-July thing, given why the initial ban list had been posted).

On oldbie posts being seen as pronouncements instead of invitations for discussion, I agree that this is a thing and that we need to keep in mind that it happens. In fact, it's been a thing for about as long as I've been in the PPC (if not longer). I know because I did when I was newer. For example, about seven months after I joined, there was a big blow-up about #PPC2 and bad behavior in the IRC generally. I stayed way away from the discussion (the only comment I made was a vote of support for Delta's proposed IRC rules). I can't for the life of my remember why I didn't contribute. If i had to guess, I'd say I it was a combination of the problem you identified and feeling that everyone had already said what needed saying.

I can't think of anything we can do about this other than try to keep in mind (newbies and oldbies both) that it happens with an eye towards minimizing it.

I'm not entirely sure what you meant when you talked about "wishful thinking saying that [the PPC] already is [a garden]". Did you mean that we have a problem with optimistically thinking everyone's friends here and that there's no need to change anything? Is there anything in particular you think we've seeing through collective rose-tinted glasses?

Scape, recognizing that you were liable to say something you might regret and then taking some time out until that became less true is, I claim, a good and reasonable thing to do.

I also understand wanting to stay out of the drama and politics. It's not fun (for me, at least. Apparently there are people who like this sort of thing?). However, as I've realized after way too long, this stuff is important to keeping this place from going up in flames, so someone has to be doing it. So, if you'd like to become one of the Involved (as it were), I expect we'd be glad to have you. (Obviously, this is your choice etc.)

- Tomash

As always, Da Rules.

As things stand right now, Novastorme is waiting patiently in the finalists' bracket for his opponent to claw their way through the ranks to meet him. The next battle we are currently waiting on is Huinesoron vs. [EvilAI]UBEROverlord. Scapegrace will fight the winner of that match, and the winner there will go on to fight Novastorme for the gold cup.

see, this is what I get for saying 'This is a small tournament so things should move quickly', it ends up going halfway into the next month...

In no particular order:

- Plagiarism
- Stalking
- Harassment/inciting others to harassment
- Verbal/emotional abuse
- Angry, violent outbursts
- Threats of death or bodily harm to others
- Brushing off expressions of wanting to hurt others as "just a joke"
- Using [whatever] as an excuse for not playing by the rules in an opt-in community
- Disrespecting people's boundaries and privacy on sensitive issues
- Insisting that someone else has to admit they're more wrong than you before you'll take responsibility for your own bad behavior.

I think that about covers the most serious stuff. For the record, I do not mean to imply that any of these things are, or are not, on the same level as any of the other things. This is just more or less the order in which I thought of them.

As far as I can tell, both parties have done things that are wrong, and both are refusing to back down at this point. I have no idea what either of them expects of the other, nor what they expect us, the community, to do about it.

I mean, what, should we kick them both out? I don't want to do that, and I doubt it would help anything, but if neither one can put aside their anger (and dare I say pride?) enough to move on, and both insist on continuing to hate each other, what other choice is there if we don't want this to keep bubbling up into drama in our community?

Somebody please come up with something. I'm tapped out of ideas.

~Neshomeh

... and I won’t do it now. I’ll just let the king and queen (and the chancellor?) have their ways, reserving the right to rebel and take down the monarchy whenever I feel like it’s the right thing to do :-)

Seriously, thanks for what you three are doing here.

To most of who’ve been named, I’d say, "I’m satisfied with what I’ve seen here and elsewhere; no further action necessary". This includes Ekyl, assuming that he considers the advice he got.

Concerning Nord Ronnoc and Herr Wozzek, I feel biased. I don’t remember to have seen Nord on the Board ever, or to have read anything written by him, so that’s a case where I would instinctively take the side of the person I know and like, but we obviously shouldn’t do that.

HG

I mean, I probably won't be taking part, but I'm in favour of the general concept.

Not sure I can crank out even a 2-4 page story by next Tuesday for Prop One, but if I can use this as an excuse to garner feedback on a story I've already written, I'm game. ^_^; In fact, I have two of the right length, if somebody else needs a pass on writing something new! I would actually really love some insight into why one has gotten more attention than the other. It's been baffling me.

... Except it might be obvious they're mine, though. Would that be a problem? Since the betas will be anonymous, they won't have to worry about offending me.

Failing that, I will try to actually write something. There's got to be some little scene I can draw out of my brain...

~Neshomeh

Ekyl: I refuse to comment on this behaviour, as it has been adequately covered elsewhere. There is also a simple conflict of interest in that I don't actually like him.

Nord Ronnoc: I don't know about the other two charges here, but I can definitely by the harassment charge. I distinctly remember Nord badgering people heavily on the Discord to look through his milsci Mass Effect fic and offer concrit; indeed, I offered some of my own over voice chat, even though I was at pains to point out that that sort of fiction is very definitely not my wheelhouse. I don't think it was entirely malicious, instead merely an overzealous approach to acquiring concrit from disinterested parties.

Granz: This was a stupid idea, as anyone who remembers PPC2 can tell you about. This was really, really dumb to anyone who remembers that part of history. Granz didn't. He wasn't around for any of that, and neither was I, and all I had to go on was various cryptic messages from people like JulyFlame and Desdendelle and VixenMage and other oldbies. This isn't to defend his actions; however, again, I don't think this was actively malicious. If memory serves, and it may well not, Granz was trying to prove a point to counter Desdendelle's little "ban everyone who has said the word Discord since last August" temper tantrum, that being that a mass ban would simply cause the community of those banned to reform their own discord and associate with each other like that. This was a stupid thing to do, but I think longstanding Boarders with long memories of the various drama outbreaks that happened here let their alarm bells ring a little too hard.

NeshomehS: "[T]he reason it looks like Neshomeh and I always get our way is because we're actually willing to speak up." A reason. Not the only one. Newbies see oldbie posts less as invitations to dialogue and more as pronouncements from on high; by way of evidence, I ask you to think about the awe you felt when a PPC BNF was talking to you eeeee back when you both first joined. This isn't your fault, nor is it entirely your problem, but it's something we all need to bear in mind.

The Discord Hive: Witch-hunting was and remains deeply wrong. We are not in the business of conducting ideological purges. That said, I don't think this was anything other than an angry mob. Outrage happens in fits and starts, it burns brighter than the stars... but then it fades away, leaving ashen resentment in its stead, and all those involved saw that it was wrong and wanted to return to how things had normally been. Therein lies the biggest problem with the PPC community; it is not our willingness to make the place a garden, but wishful thinking saying that it already is. This is something that we need to combat, far more than any Culture Of Bullying.

And Finally, Me: I get frustrated very easily; as I have often pointed out to myself and to others, that is a reason for my actions, not an excuse. Between the stupid drama on the Board and my paranoia flaring up like a dying sun (it is triggered by, of all the stupid things, my parents' house), I have not been in a charitable mood. Recusing myself from this discussion was mostly based on not wanting to say anything I regretted; this was an act of cowardice and one totally at odds with my goals of giving this all a positive outcome. The simple fact of it is I didn't want to engage with this side of the community. I'm more comfortable on the fringes and in the peanut gallery. This is cowardice. This has to stop. But it probably won't, because behaviours have inertia just like masses do.

I like talking about this stuff. Especially when I get to talk about my own characters.

I think your other questions have been covered, though. Elcalion said what I was going to about why recruiting canons is frowned upon, and you'd already gotten that idea yourself anyway, so that's all good. {= )

I will say attempting to adopt out characters you create to other writers is probably doomed to fail, though. I think we all tend to like our own creations best, and the chances of you happening to create a character someone else happens to be looking for at that time are pretty slim. If you make PPC characters, keep them. Even if you don't write missions, you can still use them in RPs and other games.

~Neshomeh

... that in 2012 Herr Wozzeck threatened violence against him. His specific statement is:

...told others he wants to beat me half to death with a dictionary when I called him an entitled brat...

This action was dismissed by Herr Wozzeck as a joke which got out of hand, with an apology "if anything I did alienated you".

I have no knowledge and venture no opinion on the truth or relevance of this complaint. I continue to recuse myself from this discussion. If Nord Ronnoc, Herr Wozzeck, or anyone else wish me to post accusations they have made I will do so, insofar as those accusations do not contain private information about others.

hS

Looks to be a pretty solid idea, in general. Proposal Two looks like it'll be a bit awkward, y'know? Dunno in what way we'll be able to contact the veteran, but I imagine it might be a touch awkward, whether it's vocal chat or just the GDocs chat window thingy. Lots've people asking questions to one fellow, who's got to divide lots of attention about. Also Proposal One looks more fun, which is my middle name. The 'J' is silent, and also invisible.

I suppose you'll need emails, or some such? I assume there will be PMing involved, if we're keeping the randomised betafellows secret.

This was done at Nord Ronnoc's request. He now feels that sufficient information has been redacted from all current posts to protect his privacy.

-Nord Ronnoc has stated that there is zero chance of him offering an apology to Herr Wozzeck, and has blocked him on Discord.

-Herr Wozzeck feels that he has been singled out for unfair treatment in this thread, and that his concerns against Nord Ronnoc have been brushed under the rug.

I feel that it is appropriate to expand this discussion to include the following question:

Have Huinesoron, Neshomeh, and Tomash behaved unfairly towards Herr Wozzeck, and if so, what action should be taken towards or required of them?

I do not feel I have behaved inappropriately. As with the Bramandin thread above, it doesn't seem that I have explicitly stated that I think the charges against Nord Ronnoc are serious, or that the verified parts of them are. Consider it stated here.

However, I did say "I can say for sure that they each have at least one very valid complaint against the other." I stand by that, and feel that it makes my opinion quite clear. I also stand by my very strong protest against Herr Wozzeck being allowed to post Nord Ronnoc's private information; it is my understanding that he feels that is unfair, and that he should be permitted to share it.

hS

I'm not asking you to become a constitutional scholar. All I'm asking anyone to do is look at the issues raised about specific people - myself and Nesh, you, Granz, Ekyl, Nord and Herr, and Multiple Discord Users - and say whether you think that, with what they've said at the time and in this thread, what they did needs further action taken.

That's all.

hS

PS: And on a personal note, I don't feel I can accept an apology that comes off as 'I'm sorry I was just as badly-behaved as you'. Characterising a post where I directly call all of you out as /passive/-aggressive is... fairly ridiculous. As for patronising: if you can point to something that isn't the literal, baldly-stated truth, I'll take that. But saying 'you don't care and I do' when I have tried to respond to every one of these huge issues that are supposedly tearing us apart, and you - meaning, here, literally everyone who isn't named Huinesoron, Neshomeh, or Tomash - didn't bother to talk about any of them? I said it angrily, yes, but it's absolutely, 100% true.

Iximaz has made it untrue. Join in. ~hS

I think character replacements can be recruited, but only should be considered in certain situations. Such as: They aren't just a Sue masquerading. They really aren't the canon. They are interesting. You have a plan for them.

I have one. I think he is the only agent that I've posted stories with that was a fic recruit. Agent Kelok was supposed to be Todd the Wraith in the fic he is from. The author got absolutely everything about Todd wrong from basic biology to personality to speech patterns. The best I could figure the author wrote an original story and then tried to wrap a canon, any canon would do apparently, around it to get readers. I recruited him, because he was clearly not the character he was named and he was interesting as himself. The way he was described in the fic, he doesn't even look or sound all that much like the canon character. He only existed to give the Sue what she wanted, and wasn't a Stu himself. The real canon had been shoved into a plot hole.

I never tried writing him as Todd the Wraith. He just wasn't Todd and never had been. Any memories he has that should belong to Todd are hazy at best, like remembering something someone told you about that you then imagined yourself doing. He had a basic personality from the fic (one that was diametrically opposed to the canon's), but not much actual experience. Most of his real memories are as a PPC agent.