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I've been around the PPC since August of 2014, so perhaps that makes me a "Middlebie" of sorts too. In that time I've seen a number of debates, but most of the once I participated in involved newbies not yet understanding how to ingratiate themselves into our community as well as the rest of us do. A few have gone off the deep end and either left on their own volition or, in one or two rare cases, gotten themselves outright banned. This may have clouded my perception and skewed it somewhat in the favor of newbies, because speaking as someone who's caused trouble with online groups before due to both lack of familiarity and a massively inflated teenage ego, I can sympathize more with being new than being old, as it were.

With this in mind, it took me a while to start realizing that being an "oldbie" does not automatically make you a voice of authority. Nor does it guarantee that you'll be welcome - look what happened with JulyFlame and Desdendelle. In fact, it was the massive flock-fest this past March that led me to realize that the people who've been around for as long as these two, or hS, or Nesh, or others whom we regard as "oldbies" have burdens of their own. I'm awful at pointing fingers at anyone and certainly won't do so here - we all make mistakes after all - but I can now say that these burdens have been ignored for too long simply because nobody considered speaking up against what we all thought were "voices of authority" - I'm pretty sure anyone who considered it worried that such an action would lead to the community turning against them for opposing a well-respected community member. This same mentality may explain why people are too scared to stand up to oppressive leaders in politics, challenge the views of eminent thinkers, or openly call out celebrities on their poor behavior.

This has to stop. Right now.

I've lived under the roof of a family who's been controlling myself and my brother for over two decades now. I obviously owe it to my parents for shaping me into the person that I am today, and if it weren't for their love and guidance I wouldn't have gotten my graduate degrees, or managed to get myself employed in the first place. That doesn't change the fact that both of them aren't that good at parenting, though - a doting mother who struggles to address our problems effectively, and a father who, as he himself has apologetically lampshaded, has been known to put too much "tough" into "tough love". I've tried to speak up and try to get them both to improve, but for the gods' sake, they're my parents. Talking back to your parents is a societal no-no, even if it's for their good and your own. And so the struggles continue. Perhaps my analogy for the whole "Oldbies vs. Newbies" interaction is not a good one - though our community is very much like family, every PPC boarder is still an independent thinker. But for my taste, I'm very much seeing a sort of an extended family dynamic among all of us on the Board, and while I can't speak for anyone else, I can't help but think that it's become so dysfunctional in light of the events this past March, a feeling which is both depressing and downright cringeworthy.

I still feel I should've spoken up sooner, and I'm pretty sure most if not all of the "Middlebies" feel the same way. But if the Newbies don't know enough to point out things that long-running members need to improve upon, let alone problems that have plagued the community as a whole for so long, then that leaves us and us alone as the ones to speak up. And speak up we should - as soon as we possibly can. If there's one thing this community needs, it's damage control, and perhaps us "Middlebies" may be exactly that - the mediating forces that can help restore the PPC community's collective sense of being one big, happy Internet family.

On top of what I previously mentioned, I'm now on my way to accepting the job invite I received a while ago and need to spend my time preparing for the moving. I don't have the time to participate much in these discussions, and I feel that a lot of what I've wanted to say has been said already. Perhaps I should try to rectify that once I get the time, though.

This is, by the way, directed at the group, not just Scapegrace (though Scape's points brought this to mind).

We seem to be talking about an interplay between "Oldbies" and "Newbies". I can't argue that "Oldbies" don't speak with the authority of experience. I also can't argue that "Newbies" don't quickly pick up on and follow that. These are things that I don't think are fixable.

My question, and possible way to a solution, is this: Where's everyone who isn't an "Oldbie" or a "Newbie"? What part do they play in this? We've forgotten the middle half of the community, and I think they are important. They bridge the gap between the other two groups.

Think about it. They remember what it is like to be new and in awe, but they've been around long enough to realize that "Oldbies" are just people. It makes sense that they should be the fulcrum upon which the scales balance.

The reason I think we've forgotten this group, despite half the community falling into it, is that we never had it before. Do you know what we used to call people who'd been around for a couple of years? Oldbies. Now, what an "Oldbie" is has shifted and the gap between "Oldbie" and "Newbie" has grown, but we've forgotten that the gap isn't empty. It's full of Scapegraces and Allebs and Hieronymus Graubarts and KittyEdens.

I think the "Middlebies" are the solution, but it is going to require them to take more ownership of the community. Be more invested. Answer "Newbie" questions. Question "Oldbies" when they say something you disagree with.

This is your community, too. You have a voice. It will help fix problems if you use it.

-Phobos

... yeah, so what sort of times are you around?

hS

Also, I like both options, but since everybody is so eager to submit stories, it will probably be Proposal One, so I'll try to come up with another interlude. I like the random assignment, but I don't believe that everything can be kept anonymous until the end; the author of an interlude with Agents Androia and Hieronymus is not difficult to guess. Also, there is some uncertainty about technicalities.

Unlike some others here, I'm mostly available now, but may not be around after the end of this month (having some surgery to be done).

HG

I realize tone doesn't carry well, but it was more of an expression of exasperation. Followed up by saying I don't actually want to do it. But if it makes anyone take this situation a bit more seriously, I'll be pleased.

~Neshomeh

Secret Boardversary message!

The drawback to proposal is that we couldn't use our own characters, as that would give away the writers' identities. I don't really have any plotbunnies/interest in non-PPC writing right now. So I guess proposal two sounds best to me.

—doctorlit

I mean, if the purpose of this is to show what good betaing looks like, we would assume that all participants are already good at betaing, and we would just get a more diverse version of Option Two.

I'm under the impression that this, rather than being a demonstration, is an exercise (open to newbies who never beta read before) in doing the full beta process, which in my understanding and to my experience is not done by reading it once and putting up some comments. But I may be wrong. It's up to PC to clarify the details.

HG

I mean, at first, anyhow. It serves to show the betaing process so it can get seen and commented on by everyone else, and also keeps the context of what's actually being beta'd. Which will certainly be a whole lot smoother, I imagine!

Perhaps it could have two stages - the first stage, in which the stories, unedited and commented on, are posted, are seen, get concrit, et al. And then, a bit later on, there'd be the second stage, where the fics are all finished and polished and fancy, with no comments and all the advice having been accounted for, and just get sort've posted. For funsies.

The first stage is, obviously, the one that's more relevant to the whole 'learning to beta' thing, but it's nice to see the finished products, too, innit? Like, Iunno, Masterchef, when they do a close-up dolly shot of the single nugget of beef with leaf on the side, after it's been made and judged. Or some such. I don't watch MasterChef much.

I mean, if the purpose of this is to show what good betaing looks like, then I'd think it was better to show the original, un-beta'd story and the comments, rather than the edited version. Maybe?

I guess this is where Option Two came in, since it would let people watch the whole process rther than just the first stage...

hS

I beta-read several Gdocs not being loged in before I finally got an account to put my own stories up for beta-reading.

PoorCynic just needs to set the Gdoc's properties to "everybody can comment" (supposed that they can even see the document) and "everybody who has the link can read", where the assigned beta is the only person to whom PC sends the link. If you got the link and want to stay anonymous, just be careful to not login (or to deliberately logout) before you open the document, and you will be assigned a random name like "anonymous goldfish".

The bigger problem is keeping the authors anonymous while they edit the document in response to the comments. This may actually involve copying the commented document so that the author can edit without the beta watching, and then copying the revised document back into the copy on PC's account that the beta can see (or making a new copy and sending a new link to the beta) for another read-through.

Setting the properties to "everybody can edit" (supposed that they can even see the document), where only the author and the beta get links to the copy owned by PC might spare PC a lot of tedious work, but would set up an unrealistic situation, because betas usually should only make suggestions, but should not be able to edit directly.

(Note that I don't know the exact wording of the properties, because Google talks German to me.)

HG

I'm busy with exams until the 18th though.

Although I'm going to be very busy with exams until the 17th so I don't know how much I'll be able to write until after then.

I think Proposal One sounds better - it actually achieves exactly the same thing as Proposal Two, but with more versions to look at!

I'm sure I can knock something together. I assume you don't want fanfic - ie, you don't want stories which require canon knowledge to beta?

hS

... PoorCynic would copy the stories into new docs on his account, and then copy the commented versions to new new docs. I know there's a way of doing that that strips the names from comments.

hS

I think Proposal One sounds the most constructive, although not sure if I'd have time to participate myself.

Elcalion

Have a celebratory mongoose!

Elcalion, festive

HAPPY BOARDIVERSARY

I AM USING ALL CAPS

YOU CAN THUS TELL THAT I AM VERY HAPPY ABOUT THIS SITUATION AS A GENERAL WHOLE

HUZZAH!

HAPPY THINGY!

So, er, yay! Boardversary! Have some cake, all.



-Alleb

Like most people have said already, Proposal One sounds like the best. Also like most people, I'm not sure if I could write something in time (exam week, you know). But I'll definitely be down for beta-ing!