The PPC Posting Board - Latest posts

1. Handle disputes promptly, as calmly as possible, and always on the Board.
   
   2. Make it clear in writing, and as part of newbie orientation, that disputes are never discussed on the chat. Also, no one who is not present is discussed, even in a positive light (such as discussion of liking a mission when the writer is not present). And to be aware of what you are saying in other forms of private conversations, along the lines of what Phobos said way down thread.
   
   *Would there need to be an exception for discussing missions by people who are no longer here, or very old missions in context of PPC history, especially as it pertains to a person's current agents?
   
   3. Make the chat logs publicly accessible (somewhere, somehow I'm not a computer person, so I have no idea on how to accomplish this).
   
   I think folks who never go to chat and have been talked about on chat behind their backs need to have easy access to the logs, to regain their trust in that section of the PPC, but it will also help anyone who chats who says there is a pattern of problems happening, since not everyone archives the chat logs for themselves. This bleeds into:
   
   4. Make sure everyone knows that what happens in chat is entirely as public as this Board.
   
   
   I don't know. Maybe not directly commenting on culture, but I think it'll be a lot harder to get things into a state if these rules are in place, even if most of what gets archived is links to cat pictures and general silliness.
   
   

I'd be very much game for participating in that. Good idea all around, PC!

-Alleb

I've been going through the various posts in the Grand Concilliary, and I've seen multiple suggestions regarding somehow teaching people how to be better betas. I think this is an excellent idea, and I'm more than willing to head up a little activity for all willing participants.

I have two ideas in mind (based on the main thread). I'll put them both below for comment and feedback. Whichever one appears to be more popular by next Tuesday, I'll launch as the actual activity.

Proposal One: The Blind Beta Exchange

Every participant writes a two to four page story. It can be PPC-related, but it doesn't have to be. Want to make it about your unrelated original universe? Sure, I'm game! The Organizer (that is, me) will then take the stories and assign them randomly to all participants for betaing so as to avoid any bias. Once everything's been done, the beta'd stories are returned to me, and I will post them—without names—in a specific thread. Then, everyone can publicly comment on the beta notes. Once that's done, everyone reveals who they were. We learn a little bit about betaing, and maybe a little bit about ourselves.

Proposal Two: Watch and Learn

This one has a little less participation, but could potentially be more instructive. In this case, an experienced beta would volunteer to go through an example piece. Everyone can watch, read, and ask questions/give feedback. Perhaps multiple veterans can be called in, so as to demonstrate different methods and approaches.

On a slight tangent, I'm also going to be posting an example of what I feel is very good beta work (not mine, although it was of something I did) either tonight or tomorrow. Perhaps that might help some people come to a decision.

If you have questions, comments, or suggestions for other activities, I'm happy to hear them.

PoorCynic

Disrespecting Your Betas

Like so many others in this thread have said, this is simple courtesy. Your betas not your employees; they are doing you a favor. It is therefore on you, as the author, to listen to their thoughts with an open mind. And if you disagree with their suggestions? Then discuss it with them! Explain your position and why you think something should be done in a specific way. Have a conversation with them. Who knows? Maybe one of you will change your mind. Maybe you'll both come away with a greater understanding of how the other person thinks.

Bad Conduct as a Beta

Once again: simple courtesy and communication. If you feel the beta is trying to overwrite your entire story or step outside what you asked them to do, tell them.

I also agree with Ix and Nesh here regarding weak betas. Volunteering to be a editor should be like how beta-testing a video game used to be. If you're going into it thinking 'Ooh, I'm getting to look at this cool thing first!' then you're doing it wrong. Being a beta is a responsibility. You have to find the parts that work and the parts that don't, then tell the creator about everything that you found.

Not Taking Concrit

Both of these are extreme reactions, and both are bad. If someone has legitimate points about your story, then ignoring them is arrogance. Plus, "it's published now" is ultimately meaningless when we're talking about the medium we work in. You can literally edit your stories at any time! Goodness knows I've gone back and made a few corrections and additions post-publishing.

That being said, don't go the other route and just take the story down. Obviously you should make sure that your work is as polished as possible before you publish it, but once it is? Defend its merits. Get into a conversation. Exchange views with the person providing criticism. If you come away from that still convinced that you erred, only then should you take the story down.

I'm going end this section by being completely blunt. Like Nesh said, if you can't take constructive criticism, then Don't. Write. Being a writer is hard. It's something you have to work at, to improve at, every time you put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard. If you're unwilling to improve yourself, or you don't think there's anything left to improve, then you need to reconsider what you are doing. There's always another lesson to learn. Concrit is often a vector for those lessons.

Falling Short of PPC Standards Elsewhere

I don't we as a community can stop our members from writing badfic. Obviously they shouldn't, because (as many have said) it's rather hypocritical for them to do so while sporking the badfics of others. I feel like if you join this community if you like good writing and want to make good writing, not just because you want to be a snarky wiseacre on the Internet. There are plenty of places you can do that which aren't here.

As for RPs? Whatever. RPs are goofy and ephemeral things. Go nuts! But not literally.

Battlefield Mentality/Lashing Out/Jumping to Conclusions

Obviously, these are all bad things. But they are bad things that are technically already addressed by the Constitution. Addressing this is ultimately a two way street. The community at large must do better about immediately responding to incidents, and the people involved must do a better job of trying to keep feelings from getting the better of them.

Personal Issues Elsewhere

I… am very much torn on this. On the one hand, there are compelling arguments that what happens outside the community is meant to stay there, and vice versa. That being said, I'm not comfortable with the idea of a member of the PPC acting reprehensibly elsewhere before slinking back here and pretending that all was well. If it's in the past, I'm a little more okay with it. People can change. But otherwise… I don't know. I think a case-by-case approach would be for the best.

Whether the canon is a clone or not, recruiting a canon is generally frowned upon. I think the main reason is a sense that if our mission is to defend canon, twisting it by forcibly recruiting characters for the PPC is a bit hypocritical; even ignoring that the burden of characterisation for writing a canon character has the bar set very high.

As with all 'rules' of writing, yes there are exceptions. But I would not recommend recruiting a canon. If you do so, it has to be done exceptionally well, and that makes it a more difficult option.
Suicide worked because Tungsten Monk was an excellent writer, but could have easily have become a travesty.

I think the same warning also applies to recruiting Sue'd /alternate / character replacement versions of canon, albeit to a lesser extent. There's still that high standard of writing required. While it does unlock some opportunities for great writing when you have the opportunity to explore the conflict between the canon's natural personality and the Suvian influences, it can get out of hand. A great example is Agent Dafydd: well-written, and him being an alternate version of Maglor led to some great conflict when the Fëanorian side was aided and abetted by Suvian jewellery, but I can't imagine Dafydd being an easy character to write well!

TLDR version: yes, while it's been done in the past, as Nesh has said, it's a fairly shaky precedent. Definitely not something we'd recommend as your first agent. The bar will be set very high.

Elcalion

I will be putting up analyses of the various points made by hS over the course of the next couple of days. Please don't expect anything immediately; I need the required grounding in the PPC Constitution, which will take me a little while to properly process. I realise now that the solution isn't found in turtling up, but to actually learn about it and do something.

Also, I think an apology regarding my post is in order. I admit to finding hS's post (when I got around to reading it) extremely passive-aggressive and patronising, but that isn't an excuse for responding in kind. I'm sorry for what I said.

He is furious (his word) that Herr Wozzeck decided to share his personal information without consent. He feels that the minimum required for him to even consider apologising would be for Herr Wozzeck to cease all attempts to do so.

Unless a clear consensus requests that the information be allowed to be posted, any attempts to violate Nord Ronnoc's privacy will be met with the same measures that have previously been used to protect multiple PPCers' personal information: redaction of the minimal amount of text required to restore privacy.

I am consulting with Nord Ronnoc whether he believes any further text in any posts needs redacting.

hS

I don't trust my judgement. I am incapable of separating fact from opinion, of being logical, of doing things in any way other than by gut instinct. That is not the kind of thing anyone needs in the decision-making process. Therefore, I have attempted to stay out of this thread.

What makes a good fanfic is not equal to what makes a good PPC mission. Writing a canon character well in a mission generally entails them remaining in the canon and writing their reactions to the Sues or other bad influences in the badfic, whether they are overcome or try to resist the Sue-influence. Bringing canons into the PPC would go against what they stand for- leaving canon intact.

You write that any characters your create or recruit will immediately become adoptable or free-to-use, so more experienced writers could attempt it. But how do you know that a more experienced writer will want to? hS wrote above that the second rule of recruiting characters is to have a plan for them- that means you would be writing them.

Besides, creating good OCs is also a difficult skill, like writing canons, but it's much closer to what the PPC is focused on.

-A. Lurker

...although I do have another half-cat character in a sci-fi story who (at the very least) subverts the appearance tropes of a neko. Meaning that she's got whiskers, has teeth that are actually feline in nature (instead of little fangs and the rest just being human teeth), and is covered in a thin coat of fuzz, which is all the better for cuddling, if you ask me. :3

Heh, maybe I should make her even more cat-like. Make her feet into hind paws, give her somewhat of a feline facial structure (but not too much, this isn't meant to be anthro/furry-esque), etc. She also subverts some neko behavior tropes as well - she is benevolent and friendly, but not necessarily "kawaii" (see the behaviors associated with cuteness in the Springhole.net article below.) She's less like a housecat (as your Red Dwarf guy is, and more like a wild or feral cat with a more human level of intellect. A couple other details of her behavior are that she's carnivorous and hunts for food, and does the standard cat stretch thing when waking up. So yeah, I'm pretty sure I've done it. Yay!

-Twistey

"Notes and Musings on Writing Cute Characters":
http://www.springhole.net/writing/cute-characters.htm

He would like:

1. For Nord to leave him alone (not talk to him, not talk at him, etc.) This request has been made before (though not necessarily here). Those previous requests have, at times, been ignored, most recently in the Discord about a month ago.

2. For Nord to apologize for, or at least genuinely acknowledge the unacceptability of, his previous behavior towards Herr

3. To introduce evidence of said behavior

However, said evidence was apparently removed by the Nameless Admin for containing personal information about Nord. What would be a good way to proceed?

There's a fun series of role-plays that I've started with my friends, called "Victims of the Plot," in which one friend and I are in a specific continuum and we gradually get hit by more and more fanfic tropes, so we have to escape the continuum or something before we turn into flat-out Mary Sues and lose our common sense. It's a lot of fun.

And for the Red Dwarf thing... I'm pretty sure that unless one is wearing perfume, one cannot tell what one smells like. Also, the "like really good things" part is out for me. I've got several guilty pleasures, oh man. Argh.

-Twistey

(Sort of a reply to everyone at once. Wow, huge bunch of replies I got.)

Isn't being able to write a character well part of writing fanfic that involves canons in general? I mean, there's even a bit of a stigma against fanfic that has an entirely OC cast or that focuses on OCs instead of canons, so you could say that if on knows the canons well enough to write them in a regular fanfic, then recruiting them might not be such a problem. Although I do kind of get that there is a sort of an in-universe reason for it (leaving canons where they belong, interfering as little as possible.) I see from the links that all the canons mentioned are either dead or clones.

...Hmm. Wait. Are these messages specifically for me as a newbie, or for anyone in general? Because I'm pretty sure that although I'm technically a PPCer, I won't be writing any officially PPC missions (again with my parents), and any characters I create/recruit will immediately be deemed adoptable or free-to-use. That (hypothetically only) includes the canon that I suggested earlier, or supposedly a clone thereof. Therefore, the writing of these characters, apart from initial bios, would not rest on me, but more experienced writers could give it a try.

My common sense is telling me that I should probably do some sort of OC instead, but if I did not at least somewhat consider the original thought, I would 1) have nothing to say in this post, 2) therefore be letting no one know that I read the posts and 3) miss the chance to go look for people who could be up to the challenge.

Other than the stuff in Elcalion's post and a bunch of "no, just no" (which I am not the biggest fan of, as I believe that concrit/discouragement/encouragement should have reasons why), nobody's given me any other reasons not to do this before y'all started jumping into the discussion about examples of canons used. Sidetracked, have we? :P So I would like to hear more about it. Explain further, please. I will listen, despite how I probably sound right now.

-Twistey

I mean REALLY close.

hS

It was posted to FIMFiction in 2012 (and that's a repost of the original story), so I'd say it's old enough.

Watch it here

I'm not even going to try and excuse that. You guys both put so much work into trying to make the PPC run smoothly because nobody else will. And I'm recognizing that, and recognizing I am very good at making a bad situation worse, so I'll step away from it to let the more experienced ones do their thing and not complain.

As for Ekyl, whatever. His PMed apology seemed sincere.

All of us. Including me, including you, including everyone back to Jay herself (who, per her Author's Note, broke down and flamed an author). The important thing is how we deal with those mistakes, and how we move on past them.

I'm gonna stop there before I start sounding like Gandalf, but I think it would be helpful for you to at least say whether you feel that your interactions with Ekyl still present an outstanding problem - or, in fact, your view of Neshomeh and me with respect to being overly controlling.

I'm not saying you have to - it is up to you. But I do feel it would be helpful. I'm happy for you to email me if you don't want to say anything here.

This goes to anyone who feels that one of these issues is or was a problem to them. If any of them would come up in your hypothetical "Why I Am Leaving the PPC" post, then please, say so - either here, or by email to me (huinesoron@hotmail.com), or by emailling anyone you want to act as a neutral party. And if they would have, but you think the suggestions in this thread have put the issue to bed (until/unless it recurs), then please, again, say so. It only takes a couple of words.

Please. Nothing will ever be sorted if no-one ever says anything.

hS

This entire discussion came about because of my actions, which is why I neglected to participate to start with, and then when I did, I made the horrible mistake of sharing information that was not mine to give.

So I'm staying out of the rest.

Let's take a look at the criteria:

- It's definitely over 5 years old, the original fic was apparently published in 2011.
- A Google search for the last year brings up lots of search results... But they're all spin-offs. I'm not sure those qualify as search results about the original fic itself.
- Does it really count as being "famous in its own right" when most of the recent hits are from spin-offs? Everyone knows of the original fic but what most of the fans think when they hear of TCB is the genre it created. As an example, I always assumed the Barrier thing was in the original fic, but apparently it's not? But I'm not exactly active in the fandom anymore so I might just be out of the loop.
- Last one requires a vote of PPCers, let's see what happens.