The PPC Posting Board - Latest posts

Not sure I can crank out even a 2-4 page story by next Tuesday for Prop One, but if I can use this as an excuse to garner feedback on a story I've already written, I'm game. ^_^; In fact, I have two of the right length, if somebody else needs a pass on writing something new! I would actually really love some insight into why one has gotten more attention than the other. It's been baffling me.

... Except it might be obvious they're mine, though. Would that be a problem? Since the betas will be anonymous, they won't have to worry about offending me.

Failing that, I will try to actually write something. There's got to be some little scene I can draw out of my brain...

~Neshomeh

Ekyl: I refuse to comment on this behaviour, as it has been adequately covered elsewhere. There is also a simple conflict of interest in that I don't actually like him.

Nord Ronnoc: I don't know about the other two charges here, but I can definitely by the harassment charge. I distinctly remember Nord badgering people heavily on the Discord to look through his milsci Mass Effect fic and offer concrit; indeed, I offered some of my own over voice chat, even though I was at pains to point out that that sort of fiction is very definitely not my wheelhouse. I don't think it was entirely malicious, instead merely an overzealous approach to acquiring concrit from disinterested parties.

Granz: This was a stupid idea, as anyone who remembers PPC2 can tell you about. This was really, really dumb to anyone who remembers that part of history. Granz didn't. He wasn't around for any of that, and neither was I, and all I had to go on was various cryptic messages from people like JulyFlame and Desdendelle and VixenMage and other oldbies. This isn't to defend his actions; however, again, I don't think this was actively malicious. If memory serves, and it may well not, Granz was trying to prove a point to counter Desdendelle's little "ban everyone who has said the word Discord since last August" temper tantrum, that being that a mass ban would simply cause the community of those banned to reform their own discord and associate with each other like that. This was a stupid thing to do, but I think longstanding Boarders with long memories of the various drama outbreaks that happened here let their alarm bells ring a little too hard.

NeshomehS: "[T]he reason it looks like Neshomeh and I always get our way is because we're actually willing to speak up." A reason. Not the only one. Newbies see oldbie posts less as invitations to dialogue and more as pronouncements from on high; by way of evidence, I ask you to think about the awe you felt when a PPC BNF was talking to you eeeee back when you both first joined. This isn't your fault, nor is it entirely your problem, but it's something we all need to bear in mind.

The Discord Hive: Witch-hunting was and remains deeply wrong. We are not in the business of conducting ideological purges. That said, I don't think this was anything other than an angry mob. Outrage happens in fits and starts, it burns brighter than the stars... but then it fades away, leaving ashen resentment in its stead, and all those involved saw that it was wrong and wanted to return to how things had normally been. Therein lies the biggest problem with the PPC community; it is not our willingness to make the place a garden, but wishful thinking saying that it already is. This is something that we need to combat, far more than any Culture Of Bullying.

And Finally, Me: I get frustrated very easily; as I have often pointed out to myself and to others, that is a reason for my actions, not an excuse. Between the stupid drama on the Board and my paranoia flaring up like a dying sun (it is triggered by, of all the stupid things, my parents' house), I have not been in a charitable mood. Recusing myself from this discussion was mostly based on not wanting to say anything I regretted; this was an act of cowardice and one totally at odds with my goals of giving this all a positive outcome. The simple fact of it is I didn't want to engage with this side of the community. I'm more comfortable on the fringes and in the peanut gallery. This is cowardice. This has to stop. But it probably won't, because behaviours have inertia just like masses do.

I like talking about this stuff. Especially when I get to talk about my own characters.

I think your other questions have been covered, though. Elcalion said what I was going to about why recruiting canons is frowned upon, and you'd already gotten that idea yourself anyway, so that's all good. {= )

I will say attempting to adopt out characters you create to other writers is probably doomed to fail, though. I think we all tend to like our own creations best, and the chances of you happening to create a character someone else happens to be looking for at that time are pretty slim. If you make PPC characters, keep them. Even if you don't write missions, you can still use them in RPs and other games.

~Neshomeh

... that in 2012 Herr Wozzeck threatened violence against him. His specific statement is:

...told others he wants to beat me half to death with a dictionary when I called him an entitled brat...

This action was dismissed by Herr Wozzeck as a joke which got out of hand, with an apology "if anything I did alienated you".

I have no knowledge and venture no opinion on the truth or relevance of this complaint. I continue to recuse myself from this discussion. If Nord Ronnoc, Herr Wozzeck, or anyone else wish me to post accusations they have made I will do so, insofar as those accusations do not contain private information about others.

hS

Looks to be a pretty solid idea, in general. Proposal Two looks like it'll be a bit awkward, y'know? Dunno in what way we'll be able to contact the veteran, but I imagine it might be a touch awkward, whether it's vocal chat or just the GDocs chat window thingy. Lots've people asking questions to one fellow, who's got to divide lots of attention about. Also Proposal One looks more fun, which is my middle name. The 'J' is silent, and also invisible.

I suppose you'll need emails, or some such? I assume there will be PMing involved, if we're keeping the randomised betafellows secret.

This was done at Nord Ronnoc's request. He now feels that sufficient information has been redacted from all current posts to protect his privacy.

-Nord Ronnoc has stated that there is zero chance of him offering an apology to Herr Wozzeck, and has blocked him on Discord.

-Herr Wozzeck feels that he has been singled out for unfair treatment in this thread, and that his concerns against Nord Ronnoc have been brushed under the rug.

I feel that it is appropriate to expand this discussion to include the following question:

Have Huinesoron, Neshomeh, and Tomash behaved unfairly towards Herr Wozzeck, and if so, what action should be taken towards or required of them?

I do not feel I have behaved inappropriately. As with the Bramandin thread above, it doesn't seem that I have explicitly stated that I think the charges against Nord Ronnoc are serious, or that the verified parts of them are. Consider it stated here.

However, I did say "I can say for sure that they each have at least one very valid complaint against the other." I stand by that, and feel that it makes my opinion quite clear. I also stand by my very strong protest against Herr Wozzeck being allowed to post Nord Ronnoc's private information; it is my understanding that he feels that is unfair, and that he should be permitted to share it.

hS

I'm not asking you to become a constitutional scholar. All I'm asking anyone to do is look at the issues raised about specific people - myself and Nesh, you, Granz, Ekyl, Nord and Herr, and Multiple Discord Users - and say whether you think that, with what they've said at the time and in this thread, what they did needs further action taken.

That's all.

hS

PS: And on a personal note, I don't feel I can accept an apology that comes off as 'I'm sorry I was just as badly-behaved as you'. Characterising a post where I directly call all of you out as /passive/-aggressive is... fairly ridiculous. As for patronising: if you can point to something that isn't the literal, baldly-stated truth, I'll take that. But saying 'you don't care and I do' when I have tried to respond to every one of these huge issues that are supposedly tearing us apart, and you - meaning, here, literally everyone who isn't named Huinesoron, Neshomeh, or Tomash - didn't bother to talk about any of them? I said it angrily, yes, but it's absolutely, 100% true.

Iximaz has made it untrue. Join in. ~hS

I think character replacements can be recruited, but only should be considered in certain situations. Such as: They aren't just a Sue masquerading. They really aren't the canon. They are interesting. You have a plan for them.

I have one. I think he is the only agent that I've posted stories with that was a fic recruit. Agent Kelok was supposed to be Todd the Wraith in the fic he is from. The author got absolutely everything about Todd wrong from basic biology to personality to speech patterns. The best I could figure the author wrote an original story and then tried to wrap a canon, any canon would do apparently, around it to get readers. I recruited him, because he was clearly not the character he was named and he was interesting as himself. The way he was described in the fic, he doesn't even look or sound all that much like the canon character. He only existed to give the Sue what she wanted, and wasn't a Stu himself. The real canon had been shoved into a plot hole.

I never tried writing him as Todd the Wraith. He just wasn't Todd and never had been. Any memories he has that should belong to Todd are hazy at best, like remembering something someone told you about that you then imagined yourself doing. He had a basic personality from the fic (one that was diametrically opposed to the canon's), but not much actual experience. Most of his real memories are as a PPC agent.

1. Handle disputes promptly, as calmly as possible, and always on the Board.
   
   2. Make it clear in writing, and as part of newbie orientation, that disputes are never discussed on the chat. Also, no one who is not present is discussed, even in a positive light (such as discussion of liking a mission when the writer is not present). And to be aware of what you are saying in other forms of private conversations, along the lines of what Phobos said way down thread.
   
   *Would there need to be an exception for discussing missions by people who are no longer here, or very old missions in context of PPC history, especially as it pertains to a person's current agents?
   
   3. Make the chat logs publicly accessible (somewhere, somehow I'm not a computer person, so I have no idea on how to accomplish this).
   
   I think folks who never go to chat and have been talked about on chat behind their backs need to have easy access to the logs, to regain their trust in that section of the PPC, but it will also help anyone who chats who says there is a pattern of problems happening, since not everyone archives the chat logs for themselves. This bleeds into:
   
   4. Make sure everyone knows that what happens in chat is entirely as public as this Board.
   
   
   I don't know. Maybe not directly commenting on culture, but I think it'll be a lot harder to get things into a state if these rules are in place, even if most of what gets archived is links to cat pictures and general silliness.
   
   

I'd be very much game for participating in that. Good idea all around, PC!

-Alleb

I've been going through the various posts in the Grand Concilliary, and I've seen multiple suggestions regarding somehow teaching people how to be better betas. I think this is an excellent idea, and I'm more than willing to head up a little activity for all willing participants.

I have two ideas in mind (based on the main thread). I'll put them both below for comment and feedback. Whichever one appears to be more popular by next Tuesday, I'll launch as the actual activity.

Proposal One: The Blind Beta Exchange

Every participant writes a two to four page story. It can be PPC-related, but it doesn't have to be. Want to make it about your unrelated original universe? Sure, I'm game! The Organizer (that is, me) will then take the stories and assign them randomly to all participants for betaing so as to avoid any bias. Once everything's been done, the beta'd stories are returned to me, and I will post them—without names—in a specific thread. Then, everyone can publicly comment on the beta notes. Once that's done, everyone reveals who they were. We learn a little bit about betaing, and maybe a little bit about ourselves.

Proposal Two: Watch and Learn

This one has a little less participation, but could potentially be more instructive. In this case, an experienced beta would volunteer to go through an example piece. Everyone can watch, read, and ask questions/give feedback. Perhaps multiple veterans can be called in, so as to demonstrate different methods and approaches.

On a slight tangent, I'm also going to be posting an example of what I feel is very good beta work (not mine, although it was of something I did) either tonight or tomorrow. Perhaps that might help some people come to a decision.

If you have questions, comments, or suggestions for other activities, I'm happy to hear them.

PoorCynic

Disrespecting Your Betas

Like so many others in this thread have said, this is simple courtesy. Your betas not your employees; they are doing you a favor. It is therefore on you, as the author, to listen to their thoughts with an open mind. And if you disagree with their suggestions? Then discuss it with them! Explain your position and why you think something should be done in a specific way. Have a conversation with them. Who knows? Maybe one of you will change your mind. Maybe you'll both come away with a greater understanding of how the other person thinks.

Bad Conduct as a Beta

Once again: simple courtesy and communication. If you feel the beta is trying to overwrite your entire story or step outside what you asked them to do, tell them.

I also agree with Ix and Nesh here regarding weak betas. Volunteering to be a editor should be like how beta-testing a video game used to be. If you're going into it thinking 'Ooh, I'm getting to look at this cool thing first!' then you're doing it wrong. Being a beta is a responsibility. You have to find the parts that work and the parts that don't, then tell the creator about everything that you found.

Not Taking Concrit

Both of these are extreme reactions, and both are bad. If someone has legitimate points about your story, then ignoring them is arrogance. Plus, "it's published now" is ultimately meaningless when we're talking about the medium we work in. You can literally edit your stories at any time! Goodness knows I've gone back and made a few corrections and additions post-publishing.

That being said, don't go the other route and just take the story down. Obviously you should make sure that your work is as polished as possible before you publish it, but once it is? Defend its merits. Get into a conversation. Exchange views with the person providing criticism. If you come away from that still convinced that you erred, only then should you take the story down.

I'm going end this section by being completely blunt. Like Nesh said, if you can't take constructive criticism, then Don't. Write. Being a writer is hard. It's something you have to work at, to improve at, every time you put pen to paper or fingers to keyboard. If you're unwilling to improve yourself, or you don't think there's anything left to improve, then you need to reconsider what you are doing. There's always another lesson to learn. Concrit is often a vector for those lessons.

Falling Short of PPC Standards Elsewhere

I don't we as a community can stop our members from writing badfic. Obviously they shouldn't, because (as many have said) it's rather hypocritical for them to do so while sporking the badfics of others. I feel like if you join this community if you like good writing and want to make good writing, not just because you want to be a snarky wiseacre on the Internet. There are plenty of places you can do that which aren't here.

As for RPs? Whatever. RPs are goofy and ephemeral things. Go nuts! But not literally.

Battlefield Mentality/Lashing Out/Jumping to Conclusions

Obviously, these are all bad things. But they are bad things that are technically already addressed by the Constitution. Addressing this is ultimately a two way street. The community at large must do better about immediately responding to incidents, and the people involved must do a better job of trying to keep feelings from getting the better of them.

Personal Issues Elsewhere

I… am very much torn on this. On the one hand, there are compelling arguments that what happens outside the community is meant to stay there, and vice versa. That being said, I'm not comfortable with the idea of a member of the PPC acting reprehensibly elsewhere before slinking back here and pretending that all was well. If it's in the past, I'm a little more okay with it. People can change. But otherwise… I don't know. I think a case-by-case approach would be for the best.

Whether the canon is a clone or not, recruiting a canon is generally frowned upon. I think the main reason is a sense that if our mission is to defend canon, twisting it by forcibly recruiting characters for the PPC is a bit hypocritical; even ignoring that the burden of characterisation for writing a canon character has the bar set very high.

As with all 'rules' of writing, yes there are exceptions. But I would not recommend recruiting a canon. If you do so, it has to be done exceptionally well, and that makes it a more difficult option.
Suicide worked because Tungsten Monk was an excellent writer, but could have easily have become a travesty.

I think the same warning also applies to recruiting Sue'd /alternate / character replacement versions of canon, albeit to a lesser extent. There's still that high standard of writing required. While it does unlock some opportunities for great writing when you have the opportunity to explore the conflict between the canon's natural personality and the Suvian influences, it can get out of hand. A great example is Agent Dafydd: well-written, and him being an alternate version of Maglor led to some great conflict when the Fëanorian side was aided and abetted by Suvian jewellery, but I can't imagine Dafydd being an easy character to write well!

TLDR version: yes, while it's been done in the past, as Nesh has said, it's a fairly shaky precedent. Definitely not something we'd recommend as your first agent. The bar will be set very high.

Elcalion

I will be putting up analyses of the various points made by hS over the course of the next couple of days. Please don't expect anything immediately; I need the required grounding in the PPC Constitution, which will take me a little while to properly process. I realise now that the solution isn't found in turtling up, but to actually learn about it and do something.

Also, I think an apology regarding my post is in order. I admit to finding hS's post (when I got around to reading it) extremely passive-aggressive and patronising, but that isn't an excuse for responding in kind. I'm sorry for what I said.

He is furious (his word) that Herr Wozzeck decided to share his personal information without consent. He feels that the minimum required for him to even consider apologising would be for Herr Wozzeck to cease all attempts to do so.

Unless a clear consensus requests that the information be allowed to be posted, any attempts to violate Nord Ronnoc's privacy will be met with the same measures that have previously been used to protect multiple PPCers' personal information: redaction of the minimal amount of text required to restore privacy.

I am consulting with Nord Ronnoc whether he believes any further text in any posts needs redacting.

hS

I don't trust my judgement. I am incapable of separating fact from opinion, of being logical, of doing things in any way other than by gut instinct. That is not the kind of thing anyone needs in the decision-making process. Therefore, I have attempted to stay out of this thread.

What makes a good fanfic is not equal to what makes a good PPC mission. Writing a canon character well in a mission generally entails them remaining in the canon and writing their reactions to the Sues or other bad influences in the badfic, whether they are overcome or try to resist the Sue-influence. Bringing canons into the PPC would go against what they stand for- leaving canon intact.

You write that any characters your create or recruit will immediately become adoptable or free-to-use, so more experienced writers could attempt it. But how do you know that a more experienced writer will want to? hS wrote above that the second rule of recruiting characters is to have a plan for them- that means you would be writing them.

Besides, creating good OCs is also a difficult skill, like writing canons, but it's much closer to what the PPC is focused on.

-A. Lurker

...although I do have another half-cat character in a sci-fi story who (at the very least) subverts the appearance tropes of a neko. Meaning that she's got whiskers, has teeth that are actually feline in nature (instead of little fangs and the rest just being human teeth), and is covered in a thin coat of fuzz, which is all the better for cuddling, if you ask me. :3

Heh, maybe I should make her even more cat-like. Make her feet into hind paws, give her somewhat of a feline facial structure (but not too much, this isn't meant to be anthro/furry-esque), etc. She also subverts some neko behavior tropes as well - she is benevolent and friendly, but not necessarily "kawaii" (see the behaviors associated with cuteness in the Springhole.net article below.) She's less like a housecat (as your Red Dwarf guy is, and more like a wild or feral cat with a more human level of intellect. A couple other details of her behavior are that she's carnivorous and hunts for food, and does the standard cat stretch thing when waking up. So yeah, I'm pretty sure I've done it. Yay!

-Twistey

"Notes and Musings on Writing Cute Characters":
http://www.springhole.net/writing/cute-characters.htm

He would like:

1. For Nord to leave him alone (not talk to him, not talk at him, etc.) This request has been made before (though not necessarily here). Those previous requests have, at times, been ignored, most recently in the Discord about a month ago.

2. For Nord to apologize for, or at least genuinely acknowledge the unacceptability of, his previous behavior towards Herr

3. To introduce evidence of said behavior

However, said evidence was apparently removed by the Nameless Admin for containing personal information about Nord. What would be a good way to proceed?

There's a fun series of role-plays that I've started with my friends, called "Victims of the Plot," in which one friend and I are in a specific continuum and we gradually get hit by more and more fanfic tropes, so we have to escape the continuum or something before we turn into flat-out Mary Sues and lose our common sense. It's a lot of fun.

And for the Red Dwarf thing... I'm pretty sure that unless one is wearing perfume, one cannot tell what one smells like. Also, the "like really good things" part is out for me. I've got several guilty pleasures, oh man. Argh.

-Twistey