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I'd also add a slight corollary: "Don't write Agent X because you want an agent of Agent X's cool and/or awesome species/sect/fandom/whatever, write them because you want to write Agent X". It's a principle that served me well from right back when I started - which hS took an active part in moulding.

Wobbles the Clown appeared because I wanted to do a genuine unironic clown, and up she popped; a happy-go-lucky sort whose happiness, luckiness, and (somehow) goness came about because of her previous life as an angstfic refugee who was intended to provide comic relief in the badfic itself but who was instead basically the chew toy of every electrical appliance in a given area. This desperate desire to make people happy (as well as the obligatory FicPsych sessions) made her into the clown we know and love today, but she was in need of a foil.

Then up pops something called the Continuity Council of Gallifrey, masterminded largely by hS and largely concerning the Time Lord agents of various oldbies, veryoldbies, and similarlygeriatricbies. I wanted to take part but, not having quite read the memo, bashed out a few syllables that sounded Gallifreyan and called the woman wearing them The Notary. When hS (via Morgan) pointed out that there were a lot of Time Lord agents who were Time Lords because it was cool, I wanted to refute that, so I began to think more about who the Notary was.

Now, in previous Whovian RPs on a Nintendo fansite that were frankly rubbish, I'd often used an OC Time Lord called the Gardener: righter of wrongs, snogger of aliens, part-time planet builder, and manager of a branch of Little Chef on the A504 just outside Milton Keynes. I liked playing as her, because she was fun to be around, and the original draft of the Notary was going to be much more like her. Then I thought some more about the Notary, and how I didn't want to play into hS's hands and give him a reason to boot me out of the RP... and that's why the Notary is the way she is.

It's detailed here and there in missions and RPs and ficlet responses, but the Fourth Notary was very much akin to my old Gardener OC in terms of temperament, drive, and weird hobbies involving greasy spoon management. However, I decided that that should very much be the past of the Notary, and then I remembered The Twin Dilemma, a Sixth Doctor episode wherein he throttles longtime companion Peri. It was under different circumstances, of course, but then I thought about what that would do to someone if they couldn't take it back, if that lonely old time traveller just let themselves rot in a decaying, unloved TARDIS. Suddenly the Notary's whole life story rolled out in front of me; this tired, defeated woman whose life has just been one indignity after another, until she finally got to be a hero... and then it was taken away, so she thinks. She was everything wrong with Time Lord society, everything that was rotten and corrupt about it... but, as Nirvana Crane once said (of someone else), "Somewhere under that pile of neuroses is someone nice trying to claw their way out".

From there, the dynamic with Wobbles practically wrote itself - Ronald McDonald paired with some ghastly little Napoleon from the local JobCentre has all the trappings of a normal agent pairing. So I decided to amplify those traits, really play up Wobbles' Pollyanna nature and the Notary's superiority complex, as a commentary on how limiting the standard hot-and-cold two person dynamic can be. Then Lola kept poking her head round the door, so I decided to bung her in as an agent, too - and then her story rolled out.

In fact, the only characters whose stories don't tie directly into that of the Oncoming Form are Doktor Trollenfisch und Gabrielle, who I wrote with the specific purpose of being soft and fluffy and having happy endings. Even then, they might not be separate from the rest of my agent stable for too long... though to say more would be spoilers. =]

"Furthermore, adjust vectors to the Southwestern corner. Comms! Do we have open channels with the convoy yet?!"

Nord Ronnoc has not said it in this thread, or said he wants it to be shared in this thread. So no, you don't get to do so. Just like people aren't allowed to splash Boarder's full names all over the place, or disclose things that have happened to them.

hS

Good: it would've saved me a lot of grief if only that had happened sooner.

• The death threat issue mentioned was me being miffed about about EA Games setting unrealistically high sales expectations for the release of Dead Space 3. I had to go way back into the past to find the exact post, but I dug it up. Here's the text, keeping in mind that the original post was with a link to an article about it from The Escapist:
  
  "Oh, come on EA! Really? REALLY?
  
  *groan*
  
  Well, I'll be sitting here waiting to stab you in the face when you announce that the Dead Space franchise won't continue because DS3 never got up to the 5 million copies you want it to. (I mean, really? Come on, that goal is so incredibly unrealistic it's not even funny.)"
  
  I say it was moral guardianship because he overreacted. He was also pretty uptight about "not fighting" in general, and July actually noted this to Nord's face the first time she left the PPC.

Because even joking about death threats (which is what I suspect you were doing?) may be considered not cool (e.g., see article 1.5 of our Constitution), and asking someone not to is pretty legitimate in my book. What do you mean by "moral guardianship"?

~Neshomeh

...we will take on Tomash's amendment.

If Bramandin contacts Iximaz then a ban will be enacted. The length of the ban will be determined by a community vote at that time, but will not be less than 3 months.

We are still waiting for Bramandin to acknowledge this message chain, but their acknowledgement is not required to make this binding.


(For the record: Currently 12 people accept the amendment and no one has openly disagreed with it, or my original message. If you do disagree, please feel free to say so here or via my email: baridthetroll(at)gmail(dot)com)

-Phobos

... this is the fully quote from Nord Ronnoc about the plagiarism discussion:

It was over a collaboration for his fic series, [Title Removed]. After the falling out, and as far as I remember, we made a deal where I would remove said fic (I posted it after he removed it) and he would leave me alone. My memory wasn't perfect as it happened years ago. The collaboration was my idea and the final version, [Title Removed], differentiate greatly from the collab. Taking inspiration and ideas from the old collaboration doesn't strike me as plagiarism. If you want, I can send you the old documents and the link to Redemption to compare.

I trimmed it down to exclude potential conflict and identifying information, which may have given the wrong impression.

And, on a personal note:

-You just used 'he said I shouldn't make death threats' as an argument.

and

-You just mentioned no less than five times the thing you say you've 'avoided doing since'. I didn't know about it before you brought it up in your email. That is not your information to share.

hS

...I have a few cents to add to this discussion now. And I have some things to add before I finally pretend he doesn't exist because, as I figured he would, he omitted several pieces of relevant information.

"Emotional abuse: I explicitly don't recall displaying any instance emotional abuse towards him. Most of our conversations prior to the falling out were normal, to my understanding. [I don't feel that] arguments and discussions, heated at times, count as abuse[...]."

Funny thing to say, from someone who never stopped his family from bullying me and calling me a horrible person most times I said something he didn't like. I should also stress that the only reason I became his "friend" in the first place was basically because I was cowed by his mother threatening me with libel over me saying [Personal information removed. ~NA] He claims he never wanted them to, but the fact he never stopped from doing it them says something very different. I would also contend that some of his moral guardianism would count towards that (he was very insistent about not giving death threats when I mentioned scissors in relation to EA's management with their unrealistically high expectations for Dead Space 3's release).

Both of those factors led to me being in a situation where I grew afraid of saying anything that he might take offense to. if I said something too crazy, his moral guardianism would kick in. And if I got too heated, I'd deal with his family. He never stopped doing the former, and he never made any attempt to stop the latter. I think that speaks for itself, really.

"Plagiarism: It was over a collaboration for his fic series[...]. The collaboration was my idea and the final version[...] differentiate greatly from the collab. Taking inspiration and ideas from the old collaboration doesn't strike me as plagiarism. [...] After the falling out, and as far as I remember, we made a deal where I would remove said fic (I posted it after he removed it) and he would leave me alone."

That is a lie, because that was NEVER what my complaints about plagiarism were about: they were about the fact that, in a journal he posted to DeviantArt post-fallout, he stated intent to rewrite my fanfic Mass Vexations 3. This is notable since he never asked me for my permission to do so (and in fact, had stated in a Facebook PM prior to our falling out that he'd thought of it beforehand), and that it was a potential rewrite of a fic in progress no less. (And I should also clarify: he has since deleted that journal, but contrary to what he believes deleting it doesn't mean it didn't happen.) And note that he still hasn't apologized for this, and from the way he completely misrepresented what my anger was about, it's clear he still doesn't see anything wrong with what he did to my fic there. It should also be noted that his abject refusal to see anything wrong with what he did here is what has fueled my anger against him in pretty much every other situation.

Now, to be fair to him, he didn't actually follow through with that. But the mere fact that he thought of it (and in a clear bid to get back at me, no less: it's hard to think of any other reason why he titled the prospective rewrite "Retribution" when such a title would otherwise make no sense for a full sequel) and never apologized for it still angers me to this day, as some friends I talked to about this on the last day of Midwest FurFest pointed out. And on the topic of friends, literally every person I spoke to about this around the time it happened agreed with me that his actions with that journal constituted attempted theft, so I know I'm not crazy here.

THIS is what he needs to apologize for, NOT the collaboration. And he has not done so, and given how he talks about it even now I doubt he ever will.

"inciting harassment by dismissing a mental health issue."

As far as I remember this was only done in a DeviantArt PM, and that was related to the [Personal information removed. ~NA] that his mother threatened me over. In hindsight, I realize I did go too far with the [Personal information removed. ~NA] accusations, and I've avoided doing that since. That said, I don't know how the hell I would incite harrasment with that when it was over a DeviantArt PM, and that I further never made a whole campaign to decry Nord Ronnoc for that in public.

I won't say anything about spamming messages: that was a thing that happened out of frustration that literally nobody else was calling him out for his actions. It doesn't make it right, however, and for that I apologize.

At the end of the day, though, this boils down to the exact same thing that we're dealing with for Bram here: Nord is using [Personal information removed. ~NA] as an excuse not to be a better person than he is. And I'm going to say the same thing that basically the entire PPC community has been saying to Bram: it's not an excuse. With Nord's cultural awareness (he'd started to get political at some point before our fallout), he should have more awareness of societal norms, so he cannot use [Personal information removed. ~NA] as a shield with which to deflect people telling him his behavior is shitty.

Those are my two cents. Now, I'm going to proceed with HS' suggestion that I pretend he doesn't exist in the present.

-If by 'There are people I could say are obviously insincere' you mean there are people you feel have outstanding issues with the community which have a potential to cause trouble at a later date, this would be a good time to bring them up. Ditto if there are people who are in the habit of calling you a manipulative liar.

-As per usual when I am unaware of a second incident to the "Brink" betaing one (which was about two years ago, I think?), and since Ekyl has apologised (by PM and in a drunken rant(?) on the Discord), I feel that the standard 'don't do it again/be aware that repeating this behaviour could lead to a ban' response is appropriate.

-With respect to the manipulative/insincere comments: I believe you when you say you're not being. However, it has been made clear to both me and you that you're definitely being perceived that way. Consider this as a form of concrit, then: rather than being angry at the people who've given it (who, I will add, all qualified it with 'comes off as' or 'gives the impression of', rather than saying "Ekyl is super insincere and manipulative!"), try to learn from it instead so you don't keep giving the same negative impression. Neshomeh has given you some advice; the main thing I'd add is a suggestion that you look back over the Discord log from last month and look for how your words could be read as dismissing Iximaz's distress and fanning the flames against July.

If you have difficulty spotting it - we all have blind spots, particularly when it comes to our own words! - I'm willing to go through it line-by-line and highlight things for you. It would probably be best to do that off-Board though; let me know.

-You've covered the DIA thing; I don't think anything else needs to be said.

hS

First off: the other person involved is Herr Wozzeck. In this instance, because of the nature of the discussion, I don't think trying to mask that is possible (and Nord already knew anyway, so).

The following is abbreviated from Nord Ronnoc's email to me:

~

Emotional abuse: I explicitly don't recall displaying any instance emotional abuse towards him. Most of our conversations prior to the falling out were normal, to my understanding. [I don't feel that] arguments and discussions, heated at times, count as abuse[...].
Plagiarism: It was over a collaboration for his fic series[...]. The collaboration was my idea and the final version[...] differentiate greatly from the collab. Taking inspiration and ideas from the old collaboration doesn't strike me as plagiarism. [...] After the falling out, and as far as I remember, we made a deal where I would remove said fic (I posted it after he removed it) and he would leave me alone.
Stalking: I honestly didn't see meeting him online and hanging out with him as stalking and the incident in 2015 was an accident. It happened on Twitter. I stumbled upon his page by accident and looked through out of curiosity. I liked and retweeted a few things he also retweeted. [Further details]

~

Nord has also raised several comments against Herr Wozzeck, including overreaction and inciting harassment by dismissing a mental health issue. With regards to the 2013 IRC incident, he said:

~

[...] another moderator had to tell him to calm down. I never had a chance to defend myself. He also spammed my messages.

~

By my understanding of the recent discussions, I think spamming messages could be considered harassment.

At this point, it feels to me like we're at a 'whose story do we believe' juncture. A lot of Nord's comments quoted above are fairly subjective ("I didn't see it as stalking"); a lot of the original description I received from Herr Wozzeck was also pretty subjective. Based purely on what I've seen, I can say for sure that they each have at least one very valid complaint against the other.

Since none of this (except the incident which was dealt with by an IRC moderator, in which neither of them felt they'd had their chance to say what they needed to, which is 'fair' I suppose) happened in the PPC, I think the best option for this community is to adapt what is being mooted for Bramandin. That is, both Herr Wozzeck and Nord Ronnoc should pretend the other doesn't exist. No talking to them. No referring to them. No slyly hinting at something about them. No discussing them behind their back. No responding to something they posted, no commiserating with others over their faults, no anything. Just utterly ignore them, and don't get into a situation where that's not possible.

hS

Have a plan for them.

To the best of my recollection, I've recruited a total of two characters from actual missions: Ithalond from Celebrian, and fake!Arwen/Hypatia from Empire State of Mind. Ithalond I rescued because Tungsten_Monk asked me to; she used him as an agent in three missions. Hypatia I picked up because she makes the perfect comedic foil for Agent Kaitlyn - she looks just like her lust object, has a name that indicates they'd get on well, but is a complete scatterbrain in actuality.

There used to be a tendency (I don't know if it's still around) for people to scour every mission for a character to recruit. "Congratulations," they would say, "You Are In The PPC, Here Is A Daisy." And then that... was it. They didn't want the characters - they just wanted to be able to say they'd recruited them. That's exactly as formulaic as "every mission ends with killing something (even though we're in Floaters/Bad Slash)", or "my agent uses their powersword to kill every Suvian".

I've said recently that I have a hundred named, characterised PPC characters, but the second half of that is that each and every one of them serves a purpose. Some of those purposes are very small - Davea and Aphela exist to be Tanfin's wife and her niece, respectively, and appear in a single story - but they do have a purpose. Creating or recruiting new characters just to be able to say you have is bad writing.

hS

Can't find a very good source right now, but this article seems to mention it.

https://www.theverge.com/2017/5/3/15537064/google-docs-phishing-attack-fixed

Although I suppose that's old news now, I think it came out a couple of weeks ago? Honestly, I can't really think of much stuff that's been happening this week.

Also, France didn't elect Voldemort as their president (thanks, Tumblr) putting them one-up on the rest of the world.


(also, hello!! I am back.)

Captain Elcalion returned from sick-bay, a sheepish look on his face.

"I'm sorry, Number 2, don't know what came over me. I'm back on deck now."

He reviewed the tac plot. "Hmmm, our best bet will be to divert in-system to link up with the Thornbird. Bring our vector two squares to system north."

(If you want to, it'd be good to put it on the Wiki in case anyone comes and asks the same question.)

You're kind of confusing me... The way you worded your message seems to say that recruiting shouldn't happen period, but we both know that's not true. Do we just take the background characters? Or, wait. Maybe if it's not a Suefic but still bad enough to get someone involved (like if there's an OC stuck in the middle of an Implausible Crossover a Bad Slash, or just a fic with a really messed-up plot?) I guess that works? Would that make sense?

Or maybe if you feel as if you can do some taming of the Sue (haha, get it) and make it sufficient enough to have it work? I'm guessing that last one may tie into SkarmorySilver's motives for writing EVL into the PPC, but he can jump into the conversation if he wants and clarify that. That'd be cool.

So, am I picking up the right nuances here? Thanks for the info, and I hope to hear a reply soon!

-Twistey

(P.S. About the "Don't", it's fine. It's like "Fight Club", which I know nothing about except that its first rule is "don't talk about fight club." :P)

If you read the full Article five, the mistake in question would be caused by a misunderstanding (or a cultural dissonance). "Should not be demanded" may not be applicable if something far more serious than a common misunderstanding happened, and the worth of a sincere apology that had been demanded may be that it demonstrates the result of a successful learning process. Of course, I cannot speak for people who actually demanded something; that’s just my guess of what’s going on.

HG