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Nesh, could you expand a bit on why a pair of bans is on the table?

Now, as to this whole situation, what I'd like to see happen is that both HerrWozzek and Nord Ronnoc swallow their emotions for a bit and apologize for the things they did wrong. Then, they could move back on to ignoring each other, but they'd both have some sense of closure. Unfortunately, there seems to be a "No, you apologize first!" loop going on. One suggestion I have is that, as a compromise, both Herr and Nord could apologize simultaneously. That is, they'd both send their apologies to some neutral third party, who would only pass them on once they'd gotten both of them.

If that doesn't work out, Herr and Nord could just ignore each other completely (I understand this is already sort of happening, given that they've blocked each other on Discord). I suspect this "solution" won't leave anyone satisfied. Among other things, it means both parties "got away" with bad behavior. It also makes it more likely that this will explode again later, and that would be rather bad.

I call on both Herr and Nord to realize that they've each done something wrong here (please note, this doesn't mean that they're equally bad or anything like that, just that no one's behavior in this dispute is spotless) and to apologize for their actions (such as they were) and to accept the other party's apologies like the calm, mature people I'm confident they can be.

- Tomash

I mean, I have a list of Things I Will Make hS Do Upon My Inevitable Rise To Unimaginable Powaaaaah, but that's entirely different and involves entirely more buckets full of soapy frogs. =]

On a less facetious note, I think it's just something to bear in mind when you're posting about Serious Board Things. You've been around since 2003. That's well over a decade, which is a good couple of ice ages in internet time. When you choose to comment on stuff - especially serious stuff like the Constitution - a lot of newer members will simply lack the confidence to gainsay you. I recognise your prior experience, but I have to say it seems like you were the exception rather than the rule.

In every conflict, I always see everyone's side of the story. When I pick sides, I pick the wrong one. I don't think I would be helpful in the discussions on harassment.

The discussions on beta reading? I have no excuse there and will proceed to become an active participant. I'm sorry for my previous inactivity.

--Key

And generally, I pledge to give attention to under-discussed fics. All this is totally against my temperament, but I agree: it's a huge pain how some stories get loads of discussion and others don't get touched -- even just to say "I don't know the fandom, but the story was nice."

I know I have a problem where if I'm not sure what I'm saying will be valuable, I err on the side of not saying anything at all. And I'm starting to think that's a very bad approach -- maybe "the fight scene was boring" isn't the most helpful concrit in the wrld, but at least it starts a conversation.

--Key

In particular, Proposal One. It sounds interesting and it's something to get me writing.

1. Yep, that has already been said, and I do understand now.
   
   2. Let me explain my situation yet again. I told my parents about you guys. My parents don't like you. My parents don't like the idea of correcting someone's fanfic without being asked to do so. My dad also has a thing about the fact that you call yourselves the "protectors" of anything (he believes it suggests megalomania or other forms of brain damage, see also legitimate IRL cults.) I stay on the Board because it's somewhat lesser-known. Putting things down on Wattpad or on my Google account would probably make it easier for my parents to know that I'm associating with you against their will. I'm trying to be safe here. That's the main reason why I want to do the free to use thing, because if they're mine and they're PPC, I'm likely to be dead meat. It does sort of take away some of the experience, I know, but it's for the better, and I'll probably put up regular fanfic for you to review so that I'll still learn the writing lessons I need.
   
   -Twistey

Although if the character replacement is OOC, but not Sued, and one recruits them, it looks like they practically turn into original characters - at least, that's what a lot of recruited replacements seem to be. Wouldn't that kind of situation make it less standard-y, maybe just a bit more than an original agent would be?

-Twistey

Proposal one in particular sounds like so much fun. . . but if it's happening this next couple of weeks, I'll be crazy busy and the only "story" I'd be able to submit would be a college application essay I'm working on :/ (I'd probably be able to beta, though. . .). But yeah, I think that sounds really useful and fun, and like something which could become a recurring community event if it goes well ^.^

--Key

(Wow, I've been thinking way too far ahead to somewhere past the end of the animated series I mentioned in the Permission talk page and my introductory thread.)

Would it be acceptable if a character replacement got caught in the debris of a Sue's assassination and suffered burns and memory loss, then was taken in by someone and made to believe he was a different person by that someone telling him about this other person he supposedly was, and then he somehow found his way into the PPC and became an agent? Maybe the PPC put him in DOGA or something so that he wouldn't ever run into anyone who knew about his past? Hmm. (Crud, does this description make me sound like a Suethor? I think I screwed up the wording or something and made it sound like that.)

Anyway, now that I think about it, I'd have to tweak that backstory around a bit more, since it wouldn't make sense for one of the two villains (and I mean a seriously Stu replacement) to take on that other life. He would just get killed, because the agent in the story would be after him as well as another Sue in his fic. How's that up there sound, either way?

-Twistey

So, you may or may not remember history of japan, which was a really nifty video that taught you everything you needed to know about, well. The history. of Japan. If you haven't seen it, you should check it out, because it's pure comedy gold and you might even learn some things!

Now, the creator- Bill Wurtz- has re-emerged with a more ambitious video- history of the entire world, i guess which is twice as long and just as wonderfully educating.

Language warning for both of these, if you don't like swearing. But it's worth it, I promise.

Yep, that'd probably be the best idea.

Although it might be a problem if they're Assassins/Bad Slashers/any of the action departments... I'd have to write missions, I think. Right? Well, I am going to do some mission-esque things on Wattpad, though; pretty much the same except they're requested so I can say "well, you asked for my opinion." That wouldn't be officially PPC, though, and I've already got two characters (my hired mercenaries, Verse and Versailles) for those mission-esque things. So if the characters are officially agents, what would I do?

And now that I think about it, going back over The Book Thief's plot line, Liesel wouldn't exactly be the best for literature. Sure, she'd be a pretty sharp knife for fics with *ahem, stuff from her time period* stuck in them randomly, but she didn't seem to ever have any traits for the analysis of literature or characters; reading was more just for keeping her sane. And especially because of that, we wouldn't want her dealing with fanfic that can drive someone insane. I could do something similar to Liesel, though, due to the good traits I mentioned earlier.

Well, I'm finding it hard to think now, since I'm listening to Kraftwerk and it's hard to think when you've got synthesizers beeping at you repeatedly, am I right? As such, this is all I can think of to say. Thanks for clearing this up.

-Twistey

Dunno how possible that is! I know there are people who, assuming we're using GDocs, I'd recognise their accounts in a second, and people who'd recognise mine. Not even to mention distinctive sorts of things in writing styles, or whatnot.

There's a lot of people whose accounts I wouldn't recognise, of course, and I'd argue that the distinctive writing style stuff makes up for that, but I very specifically remember getting fooled by that one anonymous vampire-guy story you wrote a bit back. Got me good. To be fair, I am pretty dumb. But, still, I wonder if that's really possible, or entirely needed? The randomising of betas for stories seems to fulfil a lot of the unbiased-ness stuff, anyhow.

I mean, it probably is possible and I'm completely blind to it. Changing accounts or whatnot.

Your statement that 'nor is it entirely your problem' suggests to me that it's at least partly my (/our) problem, and that means I should take some part in dealing with it. Do you have any suggestions as to how I might do that?

For the record: I was very new to the PPC when Thalia Weaver's actions sparked a massive row. As it happens, Kaitlyn has preserved the fact that not only did I enter into the debate, I did so with a position which I felt was at odds with the Board as a whole, and which would likely lead to me being attacked. So yeah... you don't have to be an oldbie to stand up when you think something's wrong.

hS

He indicates that he is willing to accept the proposal of the two of them completely ignoring each other.

This post should not be interpreted as me supporting or rejecting any proposals, including the one mentioned, nor as indicating that the PPC community is not entitled to continue to discuss and make decisions concerning this matter.

hS

Finals, job hunting, bills, uuuuuuuuuugh.

Well, you know what I mean. I was referring to people like Doclit who have called me such right to my face, but also saying that literally by definition that was what people were calling me by calling me disingenous and manipulative. Key word was, of course.

Re: "manipulative liar", I was saying the accusations of disingenuousness and manipulative behaviour were themselves, in effect, people calling me a manipulative liar.

Doclit is one of the people who has outright called me a liar in the past. Primarily, with people who are obviously insincere, I meant Scapegrace. Literally all she does in this community is attack people, get told "don't do that", give some half-hearted apology, then go right back to it the next time she decides to join in a discussion. This has been a pattern for years, and all that's ever done the latest time she decides to up and insult or go after people for no reason is she's told "please cut it out". She doesn't apologise for how she acts or treats people, she dismisses it out of hand and goes right back to it as soon as people are done tut-tutting about it. Her "oh I'm a hypocrite" spiel is far less sincere than any apology I have made.

As for the rest, it seems pretty well covered.

First, what you've said here isn't "mostly useless". Among other things, the middlebie perspective hasn't been brought up in this thread much at all, and it's a useful perspective that needs to be more exposed. Thank you for making this comment.

On Granz, I also agree that he wasn't doing anything malicious. I do have to admit that it set off more or less all the alarm bells (it was, after all, a second chat with implications of it being an anti-July thing, given why the initial ban list had been posted).

On oldbie posts being seen as pronouncements instead of invitations for discussion, I agree that this is a thing and that we need to keep in mind that it happens. In fact, it's been a thing for about as long as I've been in the PPC (if not longer). I know because I did when I was newer. For example, about seven months after I joined, there was a big blow-up about #PPC2 and bad behavior in the IRC generally. I stayed way away from the discussion (the only comment I made was a vote of support for Delta's proposed IRC rules). I can't for the life of my remember why I didn't contribute. If i had to guess, I'd say I it was a combination of the problem you identified and feeling that everyone had already said what needed saying.

I can't think of anything we can do about this other than try to keep in mind (newbies and oldbies both) that it happens with an eye towards minimizing it.

I'm not entirely sure what you meant when you talked about "wishful thinking saying that [the PPC] already is [a garden]". Did you mean that we have a problem with optimistically thinking everyone's friends here and that there's no need to change anything? Is there anything in particular you think we've seeing through collective rose-tinted glasses?

Scape, recognizing that you were liable to say something you might regret and then taking some time out until that became less true is, I claim, a good and reasonable thing to do.

I also understand wanting to stay out of the drama and politics. It's not fun (for me, at least. Apparently there are people who like this sort of thing?). However, as I've realized after way too long, this stuff is important to keeping this place from going up in flames, so someone has to be doing it. So, if you'd like to become one of the Involved (as it were), I expect we'd be glad to have you. (Obviously, this is your choice etc.)

- Tomash

As always, Da Rules.

As things stand right now, Novastorme is waiting patiently in the finalists' bracket for his opponent to claw their way through the ranks to meet him. The next battle we are currently waiting on is Huinesoron vs. [EvilAI]UBEROverlord. Scapegrace will fight the winner of that match, and the winner there will go on to fight Novastorme for the gold cup.

see, this is what I get for saying 'This is a small tournament so things should move quickly', it ends up going halfway into the next month...

In no particular order:

- Plagiarism
- Stalking
- Harassment/inciting others to harassment
- Verbal/emotional abuse
- Angry, violent outbursts
- Threats of death or bodily harm to others
- Brushing off expressions of wanting to hurt others as "just a joke"
- Using [whatever] as an excuse for not playing by the rules in an opt-in community
- Disrespecting people's boundaries and privacy on sensitive issues
- Insisting that someone else has to admit they're more wrong than you before you'll take responsibility for your own bad behavior.

I think that about covers the most serious stuff. For the record, I do not mean to imply that any of these things are, or are not, on the same level as any of the other things. This is just more or less the order in which I thought of them.

As far as I can tell, both parties have done things that are wrong, and both are refusing to back down at this point. I have no idea what either of them expects of the other, nor what they expect us, the community, to do about it.

I mean, what, should we kick them both out? I don't want to do that, and I doubt it would help anything, but if neither one can put aside their anger (and dare I say pride?) enough to move on, and both insist on continuing to hate each other, what other choice is there if we don't want this to keep bubbling up into drama in our community?

Somebody please come up with something. I'm tapped out of ideas.

~Neshomeh

... and I won’t do it now. I’ll just let the king and queen (and the chancellor?) have their ways, reserving the right to rebel and take down the monarchy whenever I feel like it’s the right thing to do :-)

Seriously, thanks for what you three are doing here.

To most of who’ve been named, I’d say, "I’m satisfied with what I’ve seen here and elsewhere; no further action necessary". This includes Ekyl, assuming that he considers the advice he got.

Concerning Nord Ronnoc and Herr Wozzek, I feel biased. I don’t remember to have seen Nord on the Board ever, or to have read anything written by him, so that’s a case where I would instinctively take the side of the person I know and like, but we obviously shouldn’t do that.

HG

I mean, I probably won't be taking part, but I'm in favour of the general concept.