Welcome (back) aBoard! Have this 7-dimensional rabbit plushie. It looks like a tangled mass of cotton and fake fur but that's because of the way it intersects with 3+1D space.

Okay, here's the latest version for comments. References are to this version where appropriate.

Section One: On Toleration And Its Limits

Articles 1-3 as reference.

4. The community will not tolerate any form of harassment between members of the PPC, whether it manifests as attacking, bullying, or pestering. Respect people's personal boundaries just as much as you do everything else about them. This rule particularly includes interactions outside of PPC community spaces: harassing someone by email is just as serious as doing so in public, if not more so, and will be treated as such. If you find yourself being harassed or bullied by another PPCer, please make the community aware! We cannot help with a situation if we don’t know it exists. ((Merger of Articles 4 and 13.))

Article 5 as reference.

Section Two: On The Capacity To Engage In Mature Conversation

Article 6 as written.

6.5. The rules of civility and respect do not disappear outside PPC community spaces, or while talking about someone. Don’t engage in bullying behaviour, and don’t say anything about another PPCer you wouldn’t say to their face. ((The leftover piece of 13.))

Article 7 as written.

8. Trolls (those who create deliberately bad/annoying stories, reviews or comments for the express purpose of irritating or enraging others) will be ignored or mocked for entertainment. That includes PPCers who act as trolls — you have been warned. It is not clever to deliberately antagonise others in the community, and it is not clever to crow about antagonising people outside the community, either. ((Old Article 27, as written.))

Section Three: On Making Reparations

9. If someone says or does something that seems offensive/inappropriate, remember that they most likely didn't intend to. If their words are ambiguous, go ahead and ask for clarification - it's never silly to want the full facts. Nine times out of ten, it's an honest misunderstanding by one or both of you - accept your mistakes and move on. Apologies on both sides (for being unclear, and for assuming worse than was meant) are recommended, but should not be demanded. ((Tweaked Article 8 from reference, to remove combatative language.))

10. If you believe someone is genuinely doing something wrong, it is important to tell them clearly and calmly what the unwanted behavior is, why it is unwanted (i.e. how it violates the Constitution and/or is offensive), and that they are being asked to stop. Shouting or snapping at people does not usually help, so it is generally best to address the issue as soon as you are able to do so clearly and calmly, rather than later, with lots of built-up frustration and anger. If you feel honestly unable to explain the issue, it's always fine to ask a third party to step in. Ensure that the person you're concerned about gets a clear explanation of what they did wrong - not just denunciations. ((Article 9 from reference as written, with clarification on how soon 'soon' is, and incorporating parts of Article 10.))

11. If someone or multiple someones have asked you to stop what you're doing, especially on the basis of the Constitution, take a step back. Stop and look at what you are doing or saying. Take the time to think about it - the PPC isn't going anywhere. Remember the foundation of respect that the PPC community is built on (see Article 1). If they've misunderstood you, explain that - as per Article 9, nine out of ten disputes are honest misunderstandings. But if there is a foundation to their request, stop and apologise. If you made an honest mistake, or weren't aware that what you said was offensive - we all do it sometimes! - it's always acceptable to explain after your apology (not as part of it!). Just make sure that explaining why it happened once or twice doesn't turn into making excuses for why it keeps happening. ((Article 11 from reference, massively changed. I've referenced back to Article 9 to get the 'misunderstanding/mutual apologies' stuff back in. Whether you think they have a point or not, both articles you read (9 and 11) should link to the Wiki 'Apologies' article.))

12. Wilful ignorance is not an excuse. There comes a point when someone who is ignoring the Constitution and claiming that they’re not really doing anything wrong - despite explanations to the contrary - needs the book thrown at them. However, wilful ignorance on the part of the accuser is also not an excuse. If someone clarifies a genuine misunderstanding, continuing to push for an apology may count as persecution on your part. ((Article 12, tweaked to remove a reference to the One Chance, which hasn't yet shown up.))

13. Everyone deserves an honest second chance, starting with the chance to stop, explain, and apologise. If that's enough to resolve the dispute, excellent! If not, you could try asking a third party to comment on the dispute. Do your best to find someone uninvolved; a mediator will be more useful for resolving a dispute than a supporter. Some issues may be best sorted out by email, or by agreeing to drop the subject. Almost no-one in the PPC will be deliberately trying to antagonise, upset, or offend you. ((Merger of articles 10, 13, and 14.))

14. The PPC as a community is responsible for upholding the Constitution. If following the above rules doesn't result a situation, any and all uninvolved community members have a responsibility to back up the person who is in the right, or to defuse a difficult/unclear situation. Genuine rule-breakers should be made aware that their behaviour will not be tolerated, however justified they think it is. ((Article 14, tweaked a little.))

14.5. If discussion is unable to resolve a situation, persistent rule-breakers can be told to leave the PPC community. We don’t want to do this. If the community tells you that you're not living up to its standards, listen to them! Take a step back, take the time to think, take the trouble to sincerely apologise. If you learn from your mistakes, and don't hold a grudge over them, you can continue to be a productive member of the PPC community. ((Article 14.5, reworked for a bit of positivity.))

Later on, as the last Article in On Thy Topics Of Discussion

XX. Sometimes, a discussion between just a few people takes on epic proportions. If this happens, it might be best to take it to the Lounge, or to private emails, rather than consume the Board with your enthusiasm.

At the end, Article 27 has been stolen for use as Article 8, and the final Section is renamed On What Are You Waiting For?.

---

I think I'm pretty happy with this version; it covers everything I think needs covering, and does it clearly enough that most disagreements can be cleared up. And since I'm the only person in this community, I hereby amend the--

Wait, what? I'm not? Ohfine. ^_~ Edit away to your hearts' content.

hS

Since I've finally got the shipment of the goods, enjoy this slice of Infinite Pizza

My point with the last bit of my last post is that a large enough portion of the community saying something is bad and they don't want it kinda does make it true. That's what the Constitution really is: the community setting standards for what it will and will not allow.

It's also about making those standards standard, not arbitrary, though, so:

I support pulling the trolling bit up into Section 2.

I like the progression you've outlined here for Section 3.

I think we're looking to have in there somewhere that you are expected to apologize if a) you've unjustly accused someone OR if b) you've been justly accused of something; BUT NOT if c) you've justly accused someone or if d) you've been unjustly accused (though it might be helpful to apologize anyway). This can be discussed in more detail in the proposed wiki article, which I also support. It strikes me that it might be kin to how to give constrictive criticism, just of behavior, not writing.

What's just or unjust will have to be determined on a case-by-case basis, or the document will smother itself in text.

Article 13 is a bit of an odd duck, yeah. I think it's supposed to deal with situations where a couple of Boarders get into an extended debate that isn't particularly on topic and doesn't necessarily involve anyone else? "Let's continue this over e-mail" is often a great choice there; but not if it's gotten nasty. Maybe that's something for "On Thy Topics of Discussion"?

I think "harassment outside the community (e.g. by e-mail) is just as serious as harassment inside the community" may fit best up in Proposed Section 1, Article 4.

So basically, we'd be breaking up Article 13 and possibly making a new article down in Current Section 4.

(Is that everything? I think that's everything...)

~Neshomeh

But since there are apparently some issues, I would have said:

Should Article 9 say "sooner, still with a (mostly) clear head" to clarify that it does not suggest to act rashly when already upset?

Article 11, Question 1: Since it's probably too complex to put into the constitution, I support the suggestion of a Wiki article on "Apologies".

Question 2: What? The last sentence of Article 5 (now 8) means only the accuser should apologize? I always felt that this goes both ways and apologizing for having caused trouble is also recommended to the accused person. Mutual apologies are the best way to resolve misunderstandings. Does this really need a repetition here? Or a clarification in new Article 8? Also, may we want to add "or unaware of cultural dissonances" to "being unclear"?

But now this clear progression thing looks even better, so go ahead and do it.

HG

I had a ridiculous example here, but let's be constructive instead. ^_^

Here's a proposed sketch for the first three sections of the Constitution:

Section 1: What's offensive and intolerable. Articles 1-5.

Section 2: What's just bad manners. Articles 6 (flaming) and 7 (disagreement), and possibly pulling up the trolling article.

Section 3: What to do about any problems. This breaks down as follows:

a) Check you're not misreading the situation. Article 8, possibly changed to be slightly less snarky.

b) Calmly explain what the problem is. Article 9, probably with some editing of the sooner/later section.

c) If you're being accused, stop, think, understand what's being said, and apologise if an understanding can't be reached. Article 11, possibly with some of the misunderstanding stuff from 8.

d) Wilful ignorance is not an excuse - ie, just because they say they don't understand a clear explanation, doesn't mean they get to keep doing it. Article 12.

e) Everyone gets Their One Chance, and every effort should be made to resolve disputes peacefully. Combination of Articles 10 and 14.

f) Banning. Article 14.5.

What this does is set up a clear progression across Section 3. In fact, I'd like to start each of its articles with a clear 'If... then...' statement. If you think someone is violating the Constitution/being offensive. If you are convinced the situation isn't a misunderstanding. If you are being accused of stuff. Etc.

The one orphan under this setup is Article 13, the email one. I think this might slot into Section 2, but... do we actually want to say 'if someone's harassing you, send them an email!'? I think the 'private email' part can probably be dropped, or maybe thrown into the try-to-resolve-things part. That means it's just the 'be civil by email' part that drops into Section 2.

Combined with an 'How To Apologise And Not Irritate People' article, I think this handles both my questions, and a lot of what's bothering people in the thread. If someone else agrees, I'll throw together a remade version for discussion.

((And to think, I was supposed to have stopped trying to Fix Things...))

hS

1. Hm, I had hoped that "with a clear head" would clarify that "sooner" doesn't mean immediately, in the heat of the moment. What I was going for is basically "don't just ignore it and hope it will go away and then get mad and eventually snap when it doesn't," cuz I've seen that happen plenty of times.
   
   Any thoughts on how to put that more clearly?
   
   11. Y'know, looking at it again, I think the current wording of this does preclude the idea of apologizing if you've done nothing wrong. It deliberately sets up a scenario where people are saying "Hey, person, what you're doing is offensive/against Da Rules, you should stop." Breaking the rules pretty well does mean you should apologize. And then hS put in the bit that says "If there is a good reason," which... actually, I find that's bugging me a little bit, since the purpose of this article is to outline how to gracefully recover if you've gotten into trouble. It's not about what to do if people are jumping on you for no reason. I think trying to discuss that scenario here, or building in a sort of escape route ("But I don't think I did anything wrong!") muddies the waters.
   
   Also, this isn't something I think we can put into the rules without some dangerous implications, but it is worth remembering that a community dictates what is and is not acceptable to it. As many people have commented over the years, we do things quite differently to most of the Internet, so what's acceptable most places may not be acceptable here. To some degree, it's really on the person joining this community to learn its mores and adapt, whether it's explicitly required of them or not. Nobody gets to waltz into a new place and expect it to conform to their desires. So, if members of the community are telling someone that their behavior doesn't work for us, that is our prerogative. If you find the climate doesn't suit you, there are plenty of other communities to join.
   
   There are, of course, crucial limits to this idea, which is why I don't suggest trying to encode it in the rules anywhere. It's just something to think about.
   
   ~Neshomeh

[Stamps with the Virtual Stamp of Approval]

"Night of the Doctor" confirmed all the Big Finish Eighth Doctor adventures (and by extension the rest of the Big Finish stuff) as main-universe canon. =]

I remember you, sort of! You came in and greeted us and sort of disappeared. I'd assumed you'd gotten a case of Disappearing Newbie Syndrome, and withered away into pixels, or whatever it is that happens to other DNS cases, but it turns out, you were fine all along!
You just got kidnapped or got lost in the mountains or entered a country-wide marathon, or something!

Welcome back. My gift upon you is: a flying rowan tree!
To cancel out all that Oakdown you have going on, y'know?

Welcome!

9 I'll let Nesh answer. I think, awkwardly, it works both. I also know we've had both 'why didn't you say anything at the time' and 'it's too soon to make a rational decision' crop up on ban discussions.

#11 is supposed to reference 14.5 (the banning article). Oops!

#15: ha! That's hilarious, and I can't believe I canon-failed in a joke. Or maybe it makes it better? '... here's an audiobook of a traditional mime interpretation of Hamlet.'

Yes? No?

hS

Article 11, question 2: That's a tough one, yeah. While lots of apologies builds goodwill, which is nice, if the person being accused really hasn't done anything wrong it seems rather twisted to expect them to apologize. Well, perhaps an "I'm sorry for the misunderstanding" would be courteous, but it seems like a bit more than basic politeness. Something like Level Two politeness, or maybe even Level Three. And advanced levels of politeness are hard, especially if you've just been arguing (and if you're a teenage nerd with still-developing social skills, as I believe many of us are), and seem like a lot to require within Da Rules. Maybe we should put together an article on Politeness (like the article I suggested on Apologies), or something.

Minor quibbles:

Article 9: Does "sooner" really mean "with a clear head"? Don't people often say things they regret in the heat of the moment? I think this section would be clearer without the references to "sooner" and "later," just referring to the person's level of upset-ness, or else clarify. . . or am I being silly?

Article 11: In case of rule breaking, what should be invoked? Did you leave out a word? Or did you mean that this article may be invoked in case of rule-breaking. . . Yeah, you did, didn't you. Maybe put this sentence first, or tweak the phrasing.

Article 15: I like the idea of introducing some levity, but this shows a serious lack of knowledge as regards the Hamlet fandom (maybe fandom isn't the right word. Body of tradition? Anyway). The idea of a recording of a mime performing Hamlet isn't that funny, because the play has an intrinsic association with mime. It started in Shakespeare's time, when plays sometimes began with a "dumb show" -- a shortened, mimed version of the whole play. Hamlet's play-within-a-play has one, so the play itself tends to get given one too, spawning many school projects. . . of varying quality (student productions are the Shakespeare fandom's version of fanfic; most of them are terrible)(Not that we don't have fanfic, also of varying quality). Basically, there's nothing unusual about a mime interpretation of Hamlet, and there are altogether too many recordings in this genre.

--Key protects her fandoms, even when the canon's probably taken near-irreparable damage

P.S. Speaking of Hamlet, this is a thing of joy.

I remember your name! Have this plate of welcome-back SPaGhetti, and a link to the Discord, which we do in fact have.

The rules of the Constitution apply there as well, so make sure to brush up on them if you're rusty. :)

I joined this thing way back in October and never came back to it. Do we have a discord chat or something? That would be way easier for me to keep up with.

...John Cleese's How To Irritate People.

It's a good idea though. Like the Flaming article, we can link it in-line in the Constitution. (I don't think the PPC's /quite/ far enough gone to need it in the header...)

hS

My parents still hadn't even the faintest clue as to what it was they had infected the world with, back then!

The way we have wiki articles on how to spork slash and suchlike. Just some recommendations, as per your first point. We would link to it in the Constitution or put it at the top of the Board with some language like, "If you're having trouble figuring out how to apologize, this might be useful."

(I agree with what you've said. Humility is important.)

--Key

I feel bad about it, but I actually haven't seen all of the modern TV show, and I don't think I've seen more than four episodes with the Eleventh Doctor. I'm a lot more focused on the original show and the extended universe (moreso the audios than the books) so I forget that it's all really non-canon. I think I was reading a PPC fic recently where they were talking about the whole Gallifreyan/Time Lord thing and it got stuck in my mind...

And if it's going to make you blush, I'll just say again how much I love your writing.

Firstly, I'm glad you liked it! Elanor's Homecoming is something I was happy to see myself.

The chaos at the opening was intended, actually. Elanor's back, everything is peachy, and then the appearance of Jack and the Detective starts a downwards spiral. Ave is trying to get Elanor tucked in, Zeb is teasing both of them, Dee trying to get out of there, and Jack watching bemusedly. All of which is occurring simultaneously, so there's gonna be chaos.

I'm glad it comes across, though.

As to your second, I must restore the reputation of my canonical expertise.

So, yes. :) You're right, those 24 years are the longest (confirmed) time of (consecutive) companionship between the Doctor and River. . .

But it's also irrelevant, because, as you said, they were, as far as we know, on Darillium for those 24 years, and so we weren't counting that particular period.

Still, I'm glad it was a good read. I think 'semi-happy family' might be going a bit far, but I could be wrong.

Time will tell.

It always does.

Right. The very first thing I have to say is, hooray! Ellie's back with mum! This is definitely a good thing, and I'm glad to see at least this part of Ave's trouble being resolved. The post-mission actually made me smile. Good for her. And good for you, Ixi.

Some of my favourite moments:

1) "“Sorry for the inconvenience, gents, but I have a baby to look after, so if you don’t mind lea—wait, what were you doing here, anyway?” [BEEEEEEEEEEEEEEP!]"
(You just haaad to go and say it, Ave. You just had to...)

2) "“No, but he sure got her on her back, if you know what I mean,”"
(Hiyoooooo!)

3) Actually, every time those two bloody muppets, Jack and Zeb, were playing matchmaker/teasing any of the Time Lords.

4) "The Aviator snickered. “So tell me, how does it feel to be on the receiving end for a change?”
“Is that what the Detective asked you the other night?” Zeb immediately shot back."
(Booyah, lil' buddy!)


That being said, the beginning felt a little... jumbled for me. One concrete example: Zeb asking how long the Time Lords have known each other follows by the Detective's answer to Jack's previously stated question. And Zeb's question is still hanging to AFTER the console going off and Ellie getting scared. It may not be a big deal, or anything, but it feels chaotic for me. Then again, that may just be me.

Another thing - not a negative one, but I am curious:
"“As far as I know, Eleven and River spent the most time together out of any of the incarnations” Jack said."
Now I wonder, wouldn't that be with Twelve and their 24 years on Darillium?

Long story short, it was a solid piece of mission. Zeb's the MVP, as always, and has everyone else in his shadow. Jack and the Detective have good chemistry both with each other and the other team, and Ave... well, she's just her old, grumpy self. All in all, I am looking forward to next interactions between this lil' semi-happy family.

Really, I only started writing for the Internet around 2005-2006ish - in fact, Mai Dire Fine (started April 13th, 2006), the story Agent!Sergio and Nikki are actually from, was also one of my earliest involvements in fanfiction.

... I am writing the same characters more than ten years later, which is a lot, and the current oldest oldbies PPC join still outdates them. I now feel old and young simultaneously. Tha's... weird.

(This also means that good old hS or Nesh or any of the company could have missioned my stuff back then, if there wasn't a fandom and language barrier in between. It's fine, though - ended up missioning one of these myself.)

As I recall, it was kind of a big deal, so it was probably after she stopped coming by regularly.

I seem to have known about the Board by the time I started reviewing PPC fics on FF.net, though. On June 3, I point Mulberry (Jaz and Tick's author) toward Jay and Acacia's Wunderlust account as a way to find the "two sites for the PPC." I was reading the likes of "Just Call Me Mary Sue" and "I, Grûsbálk" and had caught up to the latest chapter of HFA (chapter 21) in January, and apparently then went on to read OFUM, and I know I got to the PPC by way of the OFUM mailing list. I think I may have found "Triumvirate" via the mailing list, too, and I was reading THAT by the end of January... I'unno.

I do know I went on a bit of a hiatus after I first joined the Board, though, then came back and became active. I was really active as of 2004, when I started putting together the updated Substance Menu and the Tech Glossary. (Clearly I wanted a wiki before there was such a thing.)

Research is indeed fun. ^_^

Oh, if anybody wants links to the fics I mentioned, just say the word. I don't promise they'll hold up from when I was a wee young'un, but they probably don't suck, at least. {= )

~Neshomeh

... (where 'enough' is flexible; given that we're not actually changing any rules, despite the large edit, I think ~8 would count, unless there are objections) I'll file the whole suggestion at the end of the Constitution doc to be potentially reconsidered another time.

Objections and changes are most welcome, obviously.

I think the Board header makes it clear that these are the rules. It doesn't explicitly say that you agree to follow them, but, y'know... that's what rules are.

I don't think there's anything in the Constitution itself, though, if that's what you're asking.

hS