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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plover

Whether you include canon and historical "Sues" in the definition or not, the Department of Mary-Sues still deals with Mary-Sues.

Also, Barid isn't proposing re-naming anything, if you'll notice. His argument is actually that the names are fine the way they are, because sometimes it's okay to be a Mary-Sue.

(My position, on the other hand, is that we ought not to call them Canon Sues and Historical Sues, because in my opinion Sues are something that can only occur in fanfiction. But since I can't think of a more convenient name for canon characters that share traits in common with Mary-Sues, it'll have to stay the way it is. But, like Barid is saying, that doesn't mean they're bad in the way that fanfic Sues are.)

~Neshomeh

Feel free to have both Lee and Ian for whatever you need; their info can be found here or on the Wiki.

Hello everyone. Sorry to bother you all, but in one of my many writing projects I've come up to a point where the characters involved stop by a pub in HQ; this pub is supposed to be at least fairly popular, and to have been around for quite a while, so I was wondering if anyone would be interested in having characters of theirs make cameo appearances. If anyone is interested, please tell me which you wish to be used and anything you think I will need to know, particularly with preferences and such. Thanks for your time, I hope this isn't a problem.

That will require one of two things happening:

1) In the official PPC terminology, Canon and Historical sues will be recategorized so that they are not a sub-category of Mary Sue.

2) Department of Mary Sues is renamed.

Thanks anyway.

...Unfortunately, it's still blue. But I never knew that preferences page existed, so that, at least, is progress. Thanks :)

Thanks! Agent Twain's going to be a bit upset when she discovers it in the Response Center, though.

Thanks so much, PoorCynic! We both appreciate your comment immensely!

Feed it only Generic Meat. Or Honey.

I'll go through and add a note about how the theory is regarded in the real world.

It's not like I've made an idiot of myself on here before. I'd rather not people bring up specific incidents, but I have done some pretty stupid stuff here, so it's expected for me to flip out a little once in a while.

Canon is always best. :-P

This has no bearing on actual consumer electronics, I just couldn't resist...

I can beat my bleach habit whenever I want to. I'm not addicted... Honest!

But what are the circumstances, and why exactly do you need to know?

But I'd have to check the Wayback thingy to know for sure, and I'm far too busy avoiding other responsibilities at the moment.

Combobreaker'd!
Standing-only is the most fun. We can be groundlings!

Look along the top when you are logged in where it says your user name. There is a button that says more. Click it and it drops down a list. The bottom item on the list is Preferences. This brings up User Profile. You'll see Username, ID #, Number of edits, etc. Between all this, and the My Home, User Page, etc tabs there are some small tabs. The first one says User Profile, the one next to it says Skin. Click that and then at the bottom is the "Let Admins override my skin choice" thing that needs to be checked. The Blue is the default, so maybe that is why it is showing up whether you are logged in or not.

Then again, this may not be it at all. I am personally really good at creating interesting faults in technology, so I could see it being something off the wall.

I don't know Kingdom Hearts at all, but the others look interesting; I'll have a look. Cheers :D

Also, good on you for making an effort to interact more; you've certainly made a good start. Keep going - don't be shy! (If you're not sure about how to start conversations, perhaps give your opinion about camera models up near the top of the page, or read and comment on the new missions? It doesn't have to be deep and insightful. :) )

But I can't find a "skins" tab anywhere. Also, I wasn't logged in when I first saw this blue look, and it doesn't seem to make a difference whether I am or not. But I'll try with the skins tab if you could please tell me where to look?

I overreacted a bit myself, to be honest. Anyway, don't worry about it.

For sake of peace, if nothing else.

Historical Sues are "grandfathered in" because we used to have different values about what we considered "good writing"--values that didn't at first have "realistic characters" at the top of the list. It wasn't until around the 1800s that people started complaining about the Sue-ness of various characters; and not until the 1950s or thereabouts that the Mary Sue problem was really addressed directly. In fan fiction, it wasn't identified or named until a couple of decades after that. So we've been learning, collectively, to create literature with realistic characters; and what was acceptable back then isn't something we like now. It's a cultural thing, for the most part.

I'll agree that many canon/Historical Sues aren't damaging their own canons; and that, if you don't judge historical literature by modern standards, it's very enjoyable for its own sake and gives an interesting picture of what life back then was like, and what literature was like, and what values people held.

You can't judge modern literature by historical standards, either--there's a great deal more informality. Even fifty years ago, using contractions or italics for emphasis in a printed book was considered pretty informal and on the edge of acceptable (though there have apparently always been exceptions for people who used those things for artistic effect, in dialogue, or while writing in a dialect as Mark Twain often did).

Historical Sues fit into their books because back then books were written in a way that was more accommodating to Mary Sues, and sold to a readership that was more accepting of Mary Sues. But try to write the same kind of character in a modern novel, and you'll just get an Eragon or a Bella Swann. Modern canons are much less accepting of Sues in general because we expect realism, and Sues just aren't realistic. That's probably another reason why Sues in sci-fi and fantasy continua (like Drizzt and Superman, both of which I offered as examples of Canon Stus) are less grating than those who are supposed to live in a modern world. But you can go too far even then (especially when you steal half the Star Wars canon, digest it, and upchuck it onto your word processor).