You've got a point

Subject: You've got a point
Author: Tomash
Posted on: 2023-01-21 04:45:40 UTC

(and I'll say this is both very interesting discussion and a question I don't expect to see myself addressing in my fic, so)

One other thing I thought of (which think I came off of Nesh's point) is that while a wizard-Controller could be rough in terms of knowledge being passed to the Yeerks, there's a solid chance they wouldn't be able to do any wizardry without persuading their host to go with it. As I recall, casting a spell generally requires some intent to do so, so even if you got puppeted through all the words and diagrams and what not, it wouldn't actually do anything unless you wanted the spell could go through.

Or I might be off-base there, I'd have to go digging through books to check for that sort of thing.

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"Pooled Wizardries" (my Young Wizards/Animorphs crossover), Ch. 3 by Tomash on 2023-01-12 03:47:03 UTC Plug Reply

For anyone who's following here, I've finally gotten around to posting Chapter 3 of my fic.

Thanks to S.M.F and Neshomeh for beta reading!

re: crossover by doctorlit on 2023-01-19 13:59:47 UTC Reply

This is surprisingly sweet, for a story where a Yeerk gains access to someone’s brain! I loved the part where Estril got to experience the sensation of sight for the first time. All the feelings and sensations, and the almost addicting, demanding sensation . . . I like that Estril has that moment of understanding why so many Yeerks went along with galactic conquest, but still keeps their desires in check and doesn’t take control of Julian. It’s cute how well the two of them are able to get along inside Julian’s head, too. Animorphs gave so little screen time to the willing Controllers, it’s not always easy to imagine what it would be like for a Yeerk and Controller to exist on friendly terms together. But I like the way you portrayed it, with Julian being a thoughtful little daydreamer who doesn’t mind letting someone else do the physical actions so he can just ponder things . . . not that I’m envious, or anything!

I only know Young Wizards through osmosis from other boarders, so I (think I) understand that a bad Yeerk would never have been made a wizard in the first place, but the idea of a Yeerk infesting an existing wizard is pretty terrifying—not only from individual Controllers suddenly becoming spellcasters, but also from gaining the knowledge of how to find other wizards. Although, perhaps a host’s magic wouldn’t work for a Yeerk? Does the wizard themself have to be willing the spell with their mind, no substitutions?

A little continuity error: Julian says, “. . . people are getting taken over by alien brain parasites?!” before Estril has explained how Yeerk parasitism works, so he shouldn’t actually know about the brain part yet! Also, you’ve got “Karadona rays,” when it’s actually “Kandrona rays.”

—you got doctorlit leafing through Animorphs novels again, you tricksy Hobbit, you!

I [hit the Enter key prematurely!] by Neshomeh on 2023-01-20 18:39:55 UTC Edited Reply

Ahem.

I think I come down on the side of "a person cannot be forced to do Wizardry." There's that one line, "magic does not live in the unwilling soul," or something very similar. A Yeerk might force you to make a spell circle and even say words in the Speech, but they can't make you want to do magic. I think a forced spell without the wizard's will behind it would be likely to fizzle out. The Yeerk would have to persuade you to do it... and then you'd have a chance to persuade them back; see hS's comments. {= )

Also, worst-case scenario, you can give up your wizardry and forget that magic even exists. It's something no one would choose to do except as a last resort, but it's an option. If it were done not because you rejected the gift, but as a sacrifice to prevent an atrocity, I think the Powers might even give you a second chance if you got free.

~Neshomeh

This is a counterpoint spell, High Wizardry-class. by Huinesoron on 2023-01-20 22:15:44 UTC Reply

In "High", Dairine creates an entire planet full of wizards. It is made explicit in the discussion that follows that only the Motherboard actually took the Oath - all the others were just given wizardry at creation.

Granted that was an unusual situation, but so is this. Yeerks can access everything their host knows, right? Then a Yeerk in a wizard knows how to use wizardry. The fact that they got it illicitly doesn't change that.

There may be provisions for the Powers to withdraw wizardry from someone willingly using it for evil ends. It's definitely implied, maybe stated outright - but on the flip side, overshadowing exists. If everything is a choice, then you can be a wizard and willingly submit to the Lone One - even if you pretend to yourself you haven't. And that doesn't qualify for revocation. So how can we be sure this would?

hS

Also, responding more directly instead of just riffing on ideas... by Neshomeh on 2023-01-21 18:57:11 UTC Edited Reply

The Powers still had to grant wizardry to the Motherboard's children, even sans-Oath, right? As powerful as Dairine was at that time, she couldn't have forced them to do that if they hadn't wanted to.

I think a Yeerk who hasn't been granted wizardry by the Powers would have the same problem comprehending wizardry as any non-wizard, even when they're made aware of it. I think Nita and/or Dairine show their dad some things (spells? Nita's Manual? Spot?), but to him the written Speech just looks like a very pretty script he can't read. He knows magic exists, but even when he sees it happening right in front of him, his brain still tries to look the other way. If he weren't exposed to it all the time, I think he would forget that it's real, just as a wizard who has their magic revoked forgets it ever existed—except, perhaps, as a fun game they used to play when they were younger and happier.

Having direct access to the brain of a wizard may allow a Yeerk to comprehend magic via their perceptions, but supposing the wizard stops being one (ETA: by voluntarily giving it up, is what I mean), and no longer recognizes that magic is a real thing, I reckon the Yeerk is left high and dry. Even if they still remember it's real (and I doubt they would), they never had the ability to command magic on their own, only via their wizard host. If the former-wizard host can't do it anymore, the non-wizard Yeerk certainly can't.

Overshadowing is a thing, though—because, I think, the Powers will never interfere with a person's free will or the consequences thereof. That's why wizardry is given out so sparingly, because the risk of offering it to just anyone who might then go over to the Lone One is too great.

So yeah, I still think a Yeerk's best bet is to talk the wizard into allowing what the Yeerk wants. Threaten their family, convince them it's for the greater good, maybe just let the wizard talk themself into it with "live to fight another day" reasoning. They'll make it up to everyone when they get free. They promise...

~Neshomeh
Does knowledge = ability? And, can Yeerks force creativity? by Neshomeh on 2023-01-21 00:52:22 UTC Reply

I can read numbers. I know that complex mathematics are possible. I can even see on paper how equations are constructed. Ask me to solve a complex equation or construct my own, and I will laugh, 'cause my brain didn't come with the facility to do that. Or, from another angle, I understand the concept of basketball and might even be able to get a ball through a hoop sometimes, from a limited range, but expecting me to play basketball is doomed to fail in uncoordinated misery when I run into another player or trip over my own feet or fumble so spectacularly the ball somehow ends up in my own side's basket. {= )

... The latter angle aligns with what you said about a Yeerk only being able to draw on the knowledge already memorized by the wizard, I think.

Maybe the question to ask is how fine a Yeerk's control of its host really is. If a Yeerk inhabits an artist, for instance, can a Yeerk exercising complete physical control of the artist make them paint something in the artist's style? Or, because the Yeerk itself is not an artist, would exercising complete control over the artist result in something that fails to resemble the artist's style, and is instead in the Yeerk's?

Does the Yeerk rather need to utilize compulsion, and make the artist feel the urge to paint, then sit back and let it happen? It would know the instant the artist conceived the notion of painting "help" and could put a stop to it before it happened, so there'd be little risk involved. But, if the artist resists the compulsion, or follows it by deliberately doing bad art, how much can the Yeerk really do about it?

There's no question that a Yeerk can exercise fine control over a person's language and speech faculties, but is that enough to let them compose poetry?

I actually don't remember any instances of Yeerks attempting to replicate things that require creativity in canon, so I'm really curious!

~Neshomeh

re: re: crossover by Tomash on 2023-01-20 04:23:30 UTC Reply
First off, thanks for the thorough read! (and catching the continuity error)

Second off, *corrals the mini-Taxxon, who also made an appearance back in Chapter 1*

Third, oh no how terrible I did something that led you to opening a book. how could I do such a thing.

Now, as to the crossover mechanics questions:
- The Yeerks, as of Animorphs canon, are pretty thoroughly aligned with the Lone Power (in Young Wizards terms) and so an offer of wizardry was the sort of thing that had to be made extremely carefully.
- As to an existing wizard becoming a Controller, that would be pretty bad. We don't want Yeerks with the power to tinker the universe. Fortunately, said wizards likely have a good number of ways to avoid being infested (invisibility and teleports are good escape methods, after all), and, worst case scenario, the Powers can feed a "here's how to make the Yeerk wrapped your brain be somewhere else / disappear / ... just by thinking about it" directly to the new Controller's brain.
I'm also glad you liked my portrayal of the voluntary Controller situation!

Beware the Choice! Beware refusing it! by Huinesoron on 2023-01-20 08:54:23 UTC Reply

...worst case scenario, the Powers can feed a "here's how to make the Yeerk wrapped your brain be somewhere else / disappear / ... just by thinking about it" directly to the new Controller's brain.

Maybe they could - but would they? They could also have fed Nita a "make the nasty aliens just go away" spell during the fight at the Crossings, and given her the power to use it (maybe tap one of the many worldgates up there); instead, they let her stumble through with the aid of a non-wizard with a... hairdryer? It's been a while, but I think it was a hairdryer.

The books are full of examples of things the Powers could just create a spell to fix. Even if we exclude War as exceptional times, you could resolve every plot with a lot less pain and risk and loss by just giving Nita and Kit a shortcut spell. "Make my parents not notice my absence" would be a neat one for Deep, and well within their normal capabilities.

But they don't. Because doing it the easy way is not the point - in fact, it's Someone Else's point. And - a certain incidents involving a star-forged spear aside - the Powers don't hand out reset buttons when things go bad.

~

So how would a Controller Wizard story go? Depends how they got in that situation. If it came about because of the wizard's choices - such as staying behind to let others escape, knowing the risk - then I think they'd need to solve it themselves. The Speech is a persuasive medium, especially when you're in direct mind-to-mind contact, or failing that there's the brief interlude when the yeerk has to be back in the pool.

If they didn't have a choice - say they were infested in their sleep, before they even knew the yeerks were there (it's not mentioned in the Manual because their planet isn't aware of it yet) - then you have more options. The most low-key would probably be to give them a mental connection to another wizard - think A Wizard Alone. Your Controller's friends and allies making a combined mental and physical effort to free them is much more plausible than "oh dear, that's a problem, here's your fix-it spell", I think.

Of course, any of these scenarios leaves a yeerk with at least temporary access to wizardry - but probably no Manual access, of any kind. The damage they can do would be limited by what wizardry their host can remember, rather than just anything in the book. Unless they get hold of a Planetary (gulp!), we're probably not in end-of-the-world territory.

hS

You've got a point by Tomash on 2023-01-21 04:45:40 UTC Reply

(and I'll say this is both very interesting discussion and a question I don't expect to see myself addressing in my fic, so)

One other thing I thought of (which think I came off of Nesh's point) is that while a wizard-Controller could be rough in terms of knowledge being passed to the Yeerks, there's a solid chance they wouldn't be able to do any wizardry without persuading their host to go with it. As I recall, casting a spell generally requires some intent to do so, so even if you got puppeted through all the words and diagrams and what not, it wouldn't actually do anything unless you wanted the spell could go through.

Or I might be off-base there, I'd have to go digging through books to check for that sort of thing.

Tangentially related... by Sergio Turbo on 2023-01-21 23:33:57 UTC Reply

As I am quite familiar with crossover shenanigans, I couldn't help but think about how Animorphs would interact with Puella Magi Madoka Magica,

In particular: would a Yeerk actually be able to control a Puella Magi's body? For those unaware, a Puella Magi's soul and consciousness is extracted from her body and stored inside her Soul Gem (which sort-of-acts, and is disguised as her transformation trinket) - basically, they get turned into liches and if the Soul Gem and body get past a certain distance from each other the link fails and the body flatlines.

As such, what woudl happen? Yeerk and Soul Gem constantly fighting for control? The Yeerk would fail to override the link as it is implied to no longer require a functional brain to control the body? (In fact, Homura likely did blow a chunk of her brain off during Rebellion with little to no ill effect to herself.). The Yeerk would override, only to suddenly get a dead body if they forget to take the Soul Gem with them?

Oh great! Comments dropped on AO3. :D (nm) by Huinesoron on 2023-01-18 15:24:42 UTC Reply

Aaaaaaa hS is reading my fic and likes it! (nm) by Tomash on 2023-01-18 15:54:03 UTC Reply