Subject: Re: Agents (but not other sections of the post)
Author:
Posted on: 2024-08-30 22:00:01 UTC
So, as an admin, would you just like me to go through and add the out-of-continuity category and template from your agents' pages? It might take some more work to remove any related stuff from other wiki pages, but I can do so.
--Ls
Hi, everyone!
This post is a formal request to have all my agents, missions, and adjacent PPC writing removed from continuity. I haven't been very active in the PPC lately except on Discord, but I'd like to explain what made me come to this decision in particular.
Last year, I got heavily involved with the online fandom of a certain horror franchise (it's not important to explain which one, but some Discord-goers know anyway), and I started writing and sharing some non-PPC fics, for the first time in years. I then underwent a very impressive mental seesaw for the rest of that year and most of this one about the quality of my own work, and about whether I still wanted to be associated with it by other fans. I'll be very honest now: most if not all of my fic writing, beta'd or unbeta'd, ranges from mediocre to genuinely embarrassing, but a lot of readers left very sweet feedback on it, and I've made some good friends in other communities through my fandom activity. That still makes me feel like it's worth the occasional horrible cringe attack to leave my fics up on my profile.
The reason why I'm cutting ties with my old PPC writing is very simple: it feels hypocritical of me to be a fic writer with lacking skills making fun of other fic writers with lacking skills. I made a comment in the Discord server today about disliking when people leave bad feedback on works on AO3, in the forms of unprompted criticism or low star ratings on public bookmarks, and someone politely reminded me which fan community I was currently telling that to. Which was very true and important, so let me just use the rest of my Discord commentary to explain my attitude shift.
It doesn't bother me that people voice negative opinions about other people's writing. It doesn't even bother me anymore that people do it about my writing (on a worse mental health day that might not have been the case, but that's my responsibility, not the reader's). I know bad reviews have been a fandom phenomenon for as long as fan writing spaces have existed. What rubs me the wrong way is that I see more and more people hold fic writing to increasingly high standards. Aside from star reviews, I've seen things like people saying they don't read things below a certain word count or amount of kudos, or demand updates (which happened to me too, at a time where that kind of inquiry wasn't very helpful to my writing process because I already felt immensely pressured to keep writing consistently).
I know that this is the PPC, where high writing standards are the norm, but in a lot of fan spaces people just share things for fun and then get hit very hard by unexpected bad feedback. I think there should be some more tact involved, that's all. The consensus in current fan spaces seems to be that you wouldn't loudly announce that you disliked someone's crappy beginner knitting project or character sketch with wonky anatomy, but I've seen plenty of fans treat fic writing differently from that. I think fic writers who do want to post their works owe it to their readers to exercise some quality control, and I've definitely read a lot of things I disliked or which I thought would have benefited from staying on the author's hard drive, but my attitudes towards bad writing have softened a lot since I've committed so much of it myself. Sometimes you genuinely put your heart and soul into something and it still ends up not being great.
Like I said, this is just my two cents. (The reason why I don't really write PPC missions anymore is because I'd have felt very unpleasant parodying other people's bad fan writing while being a fairly mediocre but very active fan writer myself, but I don't expect other people in this community to agree with me on that.)
Am I leaving, though? Not as long as you folks will let me stay here. The PPC saw me through some very good and very bad times for five years and counting, and I made a lot of wonderful friends and great memories here. With the community's permission, I'd like to stay active on Discord and occasionally show up on this Board for the company, but I don't intend to write missions anymore and it feels in bad taste for me to leave my older (sometimes very vitriolic) mission writing still canon to the PPC.
Thank you for your time, and for your friendship, everyone.
So yeah, like I said, I am saddened to see your agents and missions removed from continuity. Not just because I liked them, but also because I prefer to see everything archived for future readers. Seeing something be lost from the internet forever is sad to me. That said, these are, of course, your ideas, and you can do with them what you will.
I find that even if I had some writing online that I was embarrassed of and wanted to not be associated with, I would prefer to move them somewhere else that isn't with my main writing, probably with a disclaimer that it isn't representative of my current work. Unless there's some gross moral issues with the work, I just don't think full removal is necessary.
I don't think it's hypocritical to necessarily point out the flaws of bad writing while having issues yourself; no one is perfect. I do think that is what beta'ing is for; helping you catch issues you can't see on your own. I don't think a PPC mission has to be perfect; the goal is simply to be better than the work being critiqued, and up to the community standards. Everyone makes typos, and I don't think anyone is ever perfect. You shouldn't need to hold yourself up to such unrealistic standards.
Sometimes people do waste time and energy on something that is, objectively, bad. But if no one points that out, how are they supposed to grow as an author? I think that in order to better your ability to write, you have to be able to take criticism and realize when you've made something bad. If someone has some awful first knitting project, you shouldn't loudly yell at how loud it is, yes, but I also don't think you should lie to them and say that it is good when it isn't. Like Geema, I can appreciate the work put into something bad, even if it has a bad end result. But being able to kindly and constructively critique something is, in my view, the best and most appropriate way to respond to something like that.
Yes, there absolutely is a way to give feedback to an author better, but I don't think a PPC mission is that way. Trying to give constructive criticism in a kind, reasonable way that makes clear exactly what does or doesn't work is a delicate balance that usually doesn't work in an MST or PPC mission, where the intent is more to entertain one's own friends and audience. A PPC-style critique might indeed stop someone from writing; which is why we don't solicit badficcers to read our missions. The PPC is a pretty private corner of the Internet with its own rules, and (nowadays at least) we absolutely don't and shouldn't try to take it outside of that. I think choosing to tailor your critiques to your audience is indeed a good thing.
Insofar as "don't like, don't read" applies to fics, I think it replies to reviews as well. Don't want to hear what someone's take on your fic is? Ignore it. Don't respond, don't think about it, block it if you have to. There is absolutely such a thing as bad reviews, and I think that they are best ignored. Did someone leave a low-star review with no elaboration? Did someone share some arbitrary standard they hold fics to? You can just ignore them and block it.
Anything posted publically should be allowed to be criticized. I don't think unsolicited critical feedback is something that should be discouraged. At the end of the day, is some dumb fanfic that totally ruins LoTR's worldbuilding with a plethora of typos the worst thing ever? No. But neither is a "bad" review or criticism, and I have the right to point out its flaws in a humorous way if I want to.
Maybe there are some people who aren't equipped to share their work publically because of insecurities or whatnot. I would tell such people that they should probably stick to sharing their work with friends.
TL;DR: Anything posted publically, be it work or review, should be allowed to be talked about or ignored. If you don't want anyone's perspectives on something, don't put it where anyone can see it. If you don't like something, you can just ignore it.
TL;DR of the TL;DR: I agree with Nesh.
--Ls
Before I start, you're free to do what you choose with your own work. Like Linstar, I don't like it, but I won't fight you. I just need to put in my two cents about why I disagree for anyone else reading.
Everyone is a beginning writer at some point. Even good writers have bad ideas sometimes, and write them, and post them. Part of my dealing with my PPC involvement is owning this: owning that not everything I do is great, and that anyone has just as much right to notice and make fun of it as I do. Because it's okay to not be great all the time. I truly believe that sentiment should be normalized, because that would take so much of the sting out of criticism; it would take away the fear so many people have of trying something new, or of continuing after a shoddy effort. It's okay not to be perfect. It's okay to look back, shake your head at how cringe you were, and then happily go about doing better. Because just look how far you've come!
I have never taken down an old work, and never intend to, and that's why. I feel no shame at having been less good then than I was now, or in growing and gaining a new perspective on life. Having been a worse writer in the past isn't a sin to be buried and atoned for. It's just part of my journey to becoming a better writer.
I was also aware that FF.n (and AO3) have a review system when I posted there, and that anyone could use it to say whatever they wanted. I wasn't posting in a private community with rules about positivity, so I never expected it. While safe spaces are certainly valuable, I think non-safe spaces are, too. If you're never exposed to negative feedback, how on Earth are you ever supposed to learn to cope with it? If no one tells you what hasn't worked, how will you know to try something different?
Granted, I would not speak to a young child the same way I would speak to a teenager or an adult, but if you join FF.n or (I think) AO3, you're stating that you're at least 13 and can be spoken to as such. I would also never speak to someone "in person" as though I were writing a mission. Different circumstances, different rules. I don't think that's hypocritical. It is, in fact, a good thing to exercise situational awareness and adjust your behavior appropriately.
But I think it's also really valuable for beginners to see that other people were beginners once, too, so that not everything out there available for comparison is a polished, mature work. And that's okay. It's okay to see what went wrong for other people, laugh about it if it was funny, and learn from it how to do better. You don't have to be an expert to have the right to an opinion. Anyone is allowed! And that's a good thing!
That's my view. Possibly an increasingly unpopular one, but there it is. I hope it helps someone.
~Neshomeh
I'll admit that some of what I said and feel about my own low-quality work (especially painting it in such a negative light) comes from a deeply personal place that I genuinely don't feel like discussing on this Board. Not now and not ever. As for other people's writing, and expressing opinions about other people's writing, I understand why you don't support what I'm saying here, but I'll stand by it. As I said to GMA on the Discord, it's everyone's choice in this community to decide if they want to give constructive critique, knowing that it's sometimes unwelcome even if it comes from an intent to help; I'm not comfortable doing it anymore unless I'm actually asked for my opinion, and the reverse of that is true as well. That's simply my stance that you are all welcome to disagree with.
Plenty of younger writers (and even me, although I'm not exactly "younger," just a little thin-skinned lately) can deal with concrit just fine if it's requested. Those same writers might feel surprised and uncomfortable to receive criticism unprompted on an enthusiastic but half-baked work, even if the criticism is well-meaning. If you are a creator on the internet, especially in an active and relatively public community, you will have to learn to deal with good faith critique and bad faith feedback, because chances are you will encounter both kinds eventually. That doesn't mean everyone is always ready and willing to receive critique on their work, and as far as I'm concerned, that's also fine. Learning to accept my own occasional failings as a writer is something of a work in progress for me, but until I adjust my attitude towards my own work, I just plain don't feel comfortable leaving up my older writing that doesn't represent my feelings and my standards anymore. Please notice that I used the word healthier for a reason when I talked about creators taking down old work to reassess it. I'm simply not at the point of being able to laugh at my own mistakes yet, it makes me feel bad to look back on them, and if it genuinely helps my wellbeing to make those works vanish for the time being, then vanish they shall. I said to Linstar that I don't intend to permanently delete my missions, so I might eventually share them again even if they're out of continuity. We'll see that later on.
Thank you for such a thoughtful response. I mean it. I haven't been a member of this community for half a decade without understanding what you and other people here think about critiquing writing. I'm only asking to be understood in return. (Adding to this: I actually was trying to say that in my opinion, sometimes sharing writing that is bad is okay, so please don't misunderstand that. Maybe I didn't express that sentiment well because of my issues with my own work and because I'm currently running on 4 hours of sleep and a very bad day, but I didn't intend to talk about lacking writing like it's a crime, as you say.)
My intent was to speak more of general philosophy than you specifically, and I wasn't trying to change your mind. You're entitled to your opinions and of course to taking action for your own health. I'm sorry if I came off combative, or continue to do so. I speak from a place of passion and perhaps general frustration with the times, but not any personal bad feeling. Plus, I'm no good at debating in real time, so I'm stuck soapboxing here. {; P
I would like to respond specifically to this:
> "[I]t's everyone's choice in this community to decide if they want to give constructive critique, knowing that it's sometimes unwelcome even if it comes from an intent to help ... That doesn't mean everyone is always ready and willing to receive critique on their work"
Again speaking of general philosophy, when it comes to posting on a public forum such as AO3, I strongly believe that by doing so the writer is consenting to receive feedback at any time, and it's their responsibility to determine when and how to engage with it. I vehemently object to the idea that anyone should shoulder the responsibility for a writer's hypothetical mental state when they choose to engage with feedback on a publicly posted work. I (a reviewer) have no way of knowing whether a random stranger on the internet may or may not be having a bad day. All I can know is that they posted their work in a public forum that enables feedback, and thereby consented to receive it. The best I can do is be honest and polite; my responsibility ends at the limit of my agency. It would be detrimental to my mental health to bear the burden for any other person's choice of when to read public reviews and how to handle them. I can't in good conscience agree with that attitude.
Now, in private forums, that's another story. A private community can set whatever rules they like for leaving feedback, including "ask first," and that is absolutely fine, just as you say.
Also, I have asked my friends to limit feedback to certain areas at times, and I'm happy to be similarly accommodating. My friends and I can do that because we have an open dialogue, and we can trust each other to assume good faith and make amends if we screw up. Plus, friendship means having more awareness of their lives and giving more consideration than you would to a random stranger. It's the thing that makes a friendship what it is.
You can do that with a beta, too, again because you and your beta have a relationship that includes an open dialogue, plus the presumption that a beta "client" will receive greater consideration than a random stranger.
But nobody should be expected to treat every single interaction with an equally high level of consideration for the other person's personal life. Heck, not everyone has the same mental capacity for higher-level relationships to begin with—some people have lots of close friends, some don't; neither is wrong.
To be clear, I do think there should be a basic level of decency held to in public forums; all things being equal, everyone has the right to be spoken to politely. But if I've been polite, fair, truthful, and speaking in a forum where I'm permitted to speak, then I've upheld my social responsibility. If someone's feelings are hurt anyway, that sucks and I'm sympathetic, but accepting responsibility for it would mean the only way to guarantee I'll never be at fault is to never review at all. I don't think that's reasonable. At some point, other people are responsible for themselves.
And if that means not posting in public forums, or taking down works that were posted in public, that's okay. More power to them for realizing they have work to do on themself.
And you, too. {= )
~Neshomeh
So, as an admin, would you just like me to go through and add the out-of-continuity category and template from your agents' pages? It might take some more work to remove any related stuff from other wiki pages, but I can do so.
--Ls
I apologize for asking you to do the extra work, but I haven't been active on the wiki myself in ages, as you know. Can you please let me know if my writing stuff has been purged, or at least if you've marked the relevant sections as, well, not relevant anymore? I want to look into making my old Dreamwidth blog that's hosting my missions and PPC writing private once my writing has been marked as out of continuity.
There doesn't seem to be much of a point for me to ask for the wiki to be adjusted if readers can still find what I wrote elsewhere. I could just edit my Dreamwidth posts to say I'm disowning them, but then why would I let people access them in the future? As far as I know, some other authors, like the oldbie who wrote the now non-canon mission for Agony in Pink, also took the same route. (I might be wrong about that specific one, but I'm pretty sure some older missions have been fully taken down rather than just marked as out of continuity.)
Chliever's works are still all available, and his agents' pages still exist, but they've all been de-linked and marked Out of Continuity. JulyFlame's agents still have wiki pages, but they're completely wiped and mission links are all dead.
Frankly, I would be saddened to lose any chance of seeing your missions at all, period. Even if you don't like them anymore, not being able to see them for any purpose just saddens me. I'd also like to note that the reason July left was due to massive drama; and even then, the mission were only deleted because someone mistakenly linked them in a TVTropes page.
--Ls hates to see things deleted and lost forever.
I'm really grateful that you appreciate my old works, but I've made up my mind about how I want to exist within this community from now on, and part of that involves taking down the writing that's not up to my creative standards and how I want to approach fic writing in the future. My missions were all for trollfics or writing from a decade or even longer ago, so the chances of hurting the author's feelings are practically nonexistent, but I'm not satisfied with the tone I took with most of them (the Mirkwood one in particular is so hostile that it reads almost like a Jay and Acacia mission in places). I knew some details of why July left the community, but I still feel I'm making the right choice here. If for any reason I change my mind, I can always try to make my Dreamwidth public again because I don't intend to actually permanently delete those old relics. I hope that helps.
And if it's any consolation, I've also taken down some of my horror fanfics that I felt unsatisfied with before. I know some people are unhappy to see any fic get deleted, but in some cases it was to rewrite the work and present readers with a better version, and in others it was because I simply have my limits about how much cringy writing I want to be seen in the company of, so to speak. Sometimes it's healthier for creators to reevaluate their own writing according to their comfort levels and current standards, even if it means that something gets lost in the process.
If I'm honest, I don't think I agree. I like having things archived and barring some sort of moral issue with the content in question, I don't think works should be made entirely publically unavailable. It's rather sad to hear that that happened to your horror fics too.
That said, these are your fics. You can do whatever you wish with them.
--Ls
Um, also, I'm guessing you want me to delete images?
They all now look like this.
--Ls
I want to start out that I don't mean for this to turn into another conversation about whether the PPC deserves to exist or whatever. That conversation has been had plenty of times and it just seems to end with everyone's feelings being hurt. I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings here. I just want to add what I already said to Oculus in the Discord because it was an interesting conversation and I'd like to maybe get some more thoughts on it.
When I was a kid, my school had a whole assembly about using the Internet. The whole presentation was pretty funny in retrospect, but the point is that I really had it drilled into me that when you post something online, there's no sure way to take it back. People can read it, save it, repost it, whatever they want, and there is not much you can do about it. So, if you're going to post something, it doesn't matter if it's a family photo or a one-sentence forum post: you should be prepared for anyone and everyone, for the rest of time, to see that message and associate it with you.
That position was a bit extreme. The Internet has changed, the ways people use it have changed, and nobody is going to care that the person who liked that one DeviantArt OC ten years ago was me. But that's still my first thought when I sit down to say or write something that might go online: is this something I'm okay with literally everyone seeing? For my writing, the answer is almost always "no." And that's still an important part of how I look at other people's work online. I assume that someone hit the publish button knowing full well that mean strangers would find the thing, and that they were ready for the inevitable trolls.
However, there's a flip side to that. I have to admire the confidence of anyone who publishes a fic, no matter how bad, especially when there's a second or third chapter. Even bad writing takes time and effort, so a badfic takes both of those plus the confidence to publish. No fanfic author gets paid for their work (well, unless they're breaking the terms of service), and that's also worth considering. I can get mad at a bad book for costing me money to read, money that makes me feel almost obligated to read the book; I can't say the same about fanfiction because fanfiction is free now. I can click away any time I want with no loss.
"Don't like, don't read" is a cliché that can read as "No criticism allowed," but there is some truth to that. If a fanfic is so bad that I don't even want to spend the time to write a proper review, then what am I doing? Why am I reading it? I can look at something, anything else at any time I want. When I keep reading something hilariously bad, it's because I enjoy it. When I make fun of that thing to my friends, it's because the author has made it clear in some way that they do not care about legitimate feedback. And if the fanfiction is any better than that, then I point out the parts that I actually like.