I was just reminded about this awesome post by the creator of Manly Guys Doing Manly things that I figured I'd share.

http://thepunchlineismachismo.com/archives/589

...is probably already here.

In a nutshell: just because some people misuse terms like "Mary Sue" doesn't mean we should stop using the term altogether. We have our own definition, and it fits the general definition that's in Wikipedia, so I don't think a terminology change is in order.

What makes a Sue? For me, it's proportion. Does the character have mighty powers? Okay. Does no one, not even the antagonists, have powers as great? Not okay. Is the character gorgeous? Fine. Is the character the only person so described in the entire story? Not fine. Does the character have legendary weaponry? Great. Does the character have legendary weaponry, amazing looks, a cute animal friend, magical abilities, and an angsty tragic past...a combination of which none of the villains could hope to match? Why hello there, Drizzt Do'Urden. What a surprise that you always come out on top!

The analogy I like to use is the SIMs. You know how in the SIMs game you have a certain amount of skill/personality points to begin with, and you have to choose how to distribute them? For example, your SIM can be a social butterfly...but will then have to be a total slob to compensate. You can't just have all of the personality traits be set on maximum, because...well, because then everyone would do that! And then all the characters would be *gasp* the same! Suethors (of whatever gender) do the equivalent of using cheat codes to create a "SIM" for themselves that really shouldn't be possible. And when they put these characters in with other SIMs whose creators have actually followed the rules of points distribution...well, no wonder other SIMs get outshone, and no wonder everyone hates the cheatcode!SIMs.

As for Suethors and the use of female pronouns...I would be worried if we changed the pronouns to female for Suethors, and kept the pronouns gender-neutral when talking about goodfic writers. If that's the case, that has to change. BUT, if we talk about both Suethors and canon purists using female pronouns, well, isn't that a good thing? I mean, if this were anywhere else we'd be complaining about the ubiquitous use of male pronouns in the English language. I say use 'em! Just use them for goodfic and badfic authors alike--and if that bothers people, just remind them that this is the Internet, where authors might very well be lying about their gender anyway.

As for this: "And when I see novels like this praised and exalted, while I know-- know that a female protagonist doing half of that would be laughed out of the genre, it stings. And it makes me wonder."

So, a lot of people praise flat, unrealistic male characters and criticize flat, unrealistic female characters. Yes, that is indeed wrong and unfair. But why would the solution be to praise (or fail to criticize) flat, unrealistic female characters? You'll just wind up with a double-dose of bad literature! Wouldn't the solution be, rather than letting up on Mary Sue criticism, to toughen up on the criticism of the every-present Marty-Stu?

More Stu-mocking for everyone! That can only be a good thing. :P

Finally, to this: And people who characterize those non-mainstream characters as Mary Sues don't read, don't know their literary history, don't know their social history, and don't know their feminist history. Until they know any of these, and perhaps political history as well, there's no point in talking to them, because they don't even speak the same dialect as a person with a modicum of education in the real world.

I'd really have to read more of this to form a sound response to it, because as far as I can tell, we don't characterize "those non-mainstream characters" as Mary Sues. Being non-mainstream is not a requirement for being Mary Sue. If anything, in fanfiction Mary Sue is mainstream.

And for the record? Tamora Pierce is herself a Suethor. But not because of her warrior women, oh no. Because of *snicker* Veralidaine Sarrasri, and let us count the ways.

-Beautiful, such that all the boys are queuing up to be with her

-Angsty tragic past due to being illegitimate

-Demigod

-Speshul nickname that no one else has - "The Wildmage". (Note that this isn't the same as the nicknames that the Shang warriors, both male and female, get, because those names are part of the Shang culture, and Daine's nickname is the only one of its kind in existence)

-Has more wild magic in her than anyone in the history of ever

-Had not one, but SEVERAL cute animal friends, and at the end of one book actually controls the actions of all the animals in the land

-Is able to shoot a bow and hit three moving targets in the dark--which even Alanna, who is much older and more experienced with a bow than Daine, can't equal. She is, at most, fifteen years old at the time.

-Is beloved and adored by ALL the protagonists (at the end of the first book, everyone and their pet bunny wants to take her in)

-Impresses everyone she comes across, especially with her l33t archery skillz - keep in mind that she is fifteen years old!

-Is only held in contempt by people who judge her by her illegitimacy, who are all naturally mean and nasty people

-Is beloved and adored by the VILLAIN (no, really), until like the last twenty pages of the last book, in which he becomes one of the mean, nasty people who judge her by her illegitimacy! (Gee, the author wouldn't happen to have an axe to grind about that particular topic, now would she?)

-Makes a man who has been sleeping around since she was four years old want to settle down and marry her

...and I'm probably forgetting some. Again, proportion. You could get away with one of those character traits, maybe two, but twelve? The author is trying waaaay too hard to make her character likable.

My point being, although Tamora Pierce has created some of my favorite childhood characters (Keladry and Buri being my favorites), I wouldn't hold her up as an expert on Mary Sueism. (Consider Liam "The Shang Dragon" and his mood-ring eye colors. I haven't read "Lioness Rampant" in a decade and I'm still giggling over them.)

I don't think we should change our lexicon just for the sake of appearing politically correct. "Mary Sue" has been part of fandom terminology since the seventies. It is a word, and we, as thinking humans, have power over words; it is not the other way around. Other groups may be using the term incorrectly, but I think it's safe to say we are not. Also, since we typically (hopefully, preferably) have very little interaction with other internet groups, we don't need to worry about how the PPC is viewed.

As I side note, I personally dislike the Gary Stu/Marty Sam whatever distinction. To me, any character with Sueish qualities is a Mary Sue, in the same sense that any animal with feathers is a bird (or archeopteryx). I don't see the need to use a different term for a male Sue because the gender of a Sue is irrelevant. A Sue is not a Sue because she or he is a she or a he; a Sue is a Sue because of their role in the story and their interactions with other characters. Gender is a secondary detail, eclipsed by all the rest.

So, personally? Even if we reach a consensus for a new, gender-neutral term for Sues, I will continue to call the lot—female and male—Mary Sues. Because that is what they are to me.

Oh, wait! I just thought of one: Plot Vacuums. Eh? Eh?

Alright, I'm going to go off on a really weird analogy here.
So, you may be familiar with Gary's Mod, a simulator where you are basically God. You create and destroy things instantly at will, can't be hurt, can't be killed, and can do absolutely anything with the world around you. But, after awhile,it gets very boring. You never feel like you're accomplishing anything because there's no effort in it. This is what I think defines a mary sue. You just get the feeling that if the character wasn't there no one would be doing anything. The whole world gives itself to him/her, so it never feels like they have accomplished anything.

Well developed original characters, on the other hand, are more like Minecraft. It's still a creativity tool, yeah, but you have to work hard for every accomplishment and improve yourself in order to achieve your goals. It feels like the world stretches out forever and that there could be things going on that have nothing to do with you. This is how regular characters work, interacting with a world instead of controlling it, and showing development and growth as the story progresses.

That is mainly how I judge original characters. Are the playing Minecraft or Gary's Mod?

Alright, end of horrible analogy now.

What can I add to this discussion?

Well, I noticed that Maximum Ride is on the list of Canonical Sues. I disagree with that. She puts on that act because she needs to be tough and play the part of a leader. But her internal monologues show that she's just a teenager who has had a terrible life for as far back as she can remember, and it really SHOWS. Her she reacts believably, putting her family first even though she really disagrees with them sometimes. Yes, she's bad ass and she has had two good looking guys vying for her at the same time. One of those guys was BRED to want to have her children. It's stated in book, that this guy was made to be her "perfect other half". As for being speshul, she acts like its a blessing and a curse. She's part bird(she has wings) but is sensitive about showing them due to being in hiding.
Now then, lets talk about her "perfect other half". This guy is described as being "super model gorgeous"(or something to that effect) and everyone swoons when they see him. He can see the future, everyone but Max and the other guy who wants her take right to him, he can heal his own wounds, and what pisses me off the most is that he KNOWS that he was made to want Max's babies, but isn't shown to be all that distressed about it.

If I was put into that situation(which I am in my own way due to my OCD and the compulsions I have where I KNOW that it's not necessary to repeat my actions over and over and over again, but if FEELS like I should and then I get all distressed about feeling helpless over the whole thing, please pardon the run on) I would be pretty upset about it.

Yet this guy isn't. His entire existence is based around having Max's children, he knows that, and yet the most we see him angst over it is the occasional frustration.
Now you could argue that he was brain washed into it not bothering, but here's the thing: If this were true, why hasn't the flock tried to help him out? Point out when he's being all horny towards Max, have Max reject him as part of helping him, heck she doesn't even do THAT to his face! Max just sort of goes along with it, is confused about her feeling for a bit, then her boyfriend oh so conveniently leaves the flock because "thats whats best". The next book she and her "perfect other half" are having sex. At the Eifle tower. "Silhouetted against the night sky".

Who the hell is the Stu here?!

To sum up, Max is a believable character. This other guy is a Stu.

If the character is the uncanonical child of someone, and it's kind of obvious from the story that the author made that connection just to make their character special (daughters of Aslan or Sauron come to mind), then I'm far more likely to call them Sue than if the author has better reasons.

If a character has special powers and there's really no good reason for him/her to have them, and everybody respects them for it, then I'm more likely to see the character as Sue. E.g. a LotR character doesn't need powerful elemental magic. Double points if the powers are mentioned and then either only used once or never really used. Pointless powers are one thing that cause suspicion for me. A Narnia Sue I came across was given a pair of golden wings that she can bring out or put away when she wants, and the title of the first book in the trilogy is "Her Golden Wings," but I don't remember her EVER using them as anything but battle decoration. Don't give a character something they're not going to use.

For me, Sues have little character depth and (talking mostly from Narnia experience here): often have unduly tragic pasts, almost instantly fall in love with their authors' lust object, often have poorly-written prophecies about them, might have ridiculous or uncanonical powers, throw people OOC, might cause unacceptable canon breaks, don't act like real people, are often written in first person, often defeat trained canon characters in a duel (often with martial arts), have undue attention paid to them, change the way the world works...

Let me explain better. No, there is too much. Let me sum up:

I see Sues as unrealistic characters, often without much character depth and no logical reasons for anything, who warp canon (and its rules) to revolve around themselves.

I personally think that if an author offers a reasonable explanation for a Sue trait, it becomes non-Sue. There's also the fact that a few Sue traits do not a Sue make:

Once again we're falling into the exceedingly wanky trap of "any female character who's the center of a story and has good qualities MUST BE A SUE." We need to set our radar a little higher (lower?). Otherwise every heroine ever invented can be called a Sue, and that's ridiculous.
To whit:
Beautiful = not a Sue.
Loved = not a Sue.
Brilliant = not a Sue.
Powerful = not a Sue.
Plot-central = not a Sue.
Related to another character = not a Sue.
Love interest = not a Sue.
Needs to be rescued = not a Sue.
Kicks ass = not a Sue.
Whines = not a Sue.
HOWEVER. Combine three or more of the above, throw in "makes other characters act like idiots" and "warps logic and/or plotline to suit HER," and...you might have a Sue!
PS: Flavor to taste with optional ingredients such as "author apparently types with elbows" or "creator cries when criticized."
(redpanda on LJ)

I find that does a good job summing up as well.

There would be more male OCs. (I was presented with one a few weeks ago, but he's in the Bones fandom, and I don't know that.)

I think Calista made most of the first point I wanted to make: I feel that we as "Suehunters" (or people who stick the label Mary Sue on some female OCs) are accused of sexism to make us shut up. The real problem we have with characters are not addressed. Instead we are pushed in the corner of people with whom it's not possible to have a normal conversation, because we are "sexist" and can't therefore have any valuable opinions.

Do I hold female OCs to a higher standard than male OCs? i.e. do I let male OCs get away with things that I won't let a female OC get away with?

Hard to say, I haven't actually seen that many male OCs. Off the top of my head: all the male OCs I've come across in A-Team and Voyagers! fandom are Stus. That's 100 percent. I have not seen a 100 percent rate of Suish female characters.

There are probably about 20 or 30 times as many female Sues as male Sues. I'd like to think that I won't let the males get away with things I won't let the females get away with.

Description of an OC in an upcoming mission:
US Marshall arranges friend A will watch their niece for a while while they are away on a job. US Marshall doesn't make arrangements with set friend about when and where to drop off the kid, and manages to misplace the kid in a building they have never been in. The Marshall seems to be dumb as soup. Later, when the US Marshall learns the kid has met some old friends from her father, the Marshall drops everything to confront friend A in the workplace. In the process of which they threaten that friend in words, with a knife and with a gun. Friend A is a federal agent.

Does it really matter whether that Marshall is male or female? They are over the top and unfit for their job. And the story treats their behaviour as right and hilarious.

It's a Sue/Stu, because in this fandom US Marshall's take their job seriously and so do other federal agents. The US Marshall would have been arrested for their threats; not giving a sparing session in the gym with friend A.

Yesterday someone suggested to me I should write my own badfic (?) and I think I might just try substituting any of my recents female Sues with a male Sue. Although I would much rather write good fic with a female OC that is not an OC.

I'm afraid I haven't had time to read the whole discussion so far, but I think we agree about what makes a Sue or Stu. It's not what they are or what they do, but whether the people around them react in ways that make canonical sense. Coincidentally, I just re-read "Suedom," too. ^_^

Regarding Tamora Pierce, let me point out that just as we don't believe being a bad writer makes you a bad person, so being a good writer does not make you a nice person. I take serious issue with being considered not worth talking to because I choose to use a certain term, and I did go to college and graduate with a BA in English--the studies in which which included literary history, feminist literary criticism, and many other things. Please to not blindly place me in a category without ever speaking to me, thank you very much.

I stand by what I've been saying for a while: changing what you call a thing doesn't change how people feel about it. It's far easier to change a definition than to change people's hearts.

(Also, hi, I'm back!)

~Neshomeh

One more thing... wish I could edit posts, but here we go.

I see this problem lots in all kinds of minority groups: Rather than declaring equality, once they realize they're not inferior, they tend to go overboard and declare superiority--usually embarrassing the mainstream parts of the movement. There are women who call themselves feminists and claim that women are superior to men. There are groups who say blacks are better than whites. I've even met other autistic people who are autistic supremacists, claiming that autistic people are the "next step in human evolution" (biology fail, anyone?).

The feminist Mary Sue is a reflection of that. Rather than claim equality, she claims superiority. She makes herself better than everybody else--nothing truly challenges her. If the story goes against her, she changes the story. Rather than being a realistic person who is on a level playing field with everybody else, she puts herself at the top of the hierarchy and turns everybody else into playthings.

Real-life minority groups are dealing with this sort of inverted prejudice. It can be difficult because when you tell people, "No, actually, women are just as good as men; not better," you can get accused of supporting male superiority. I've been accused of being a "traitor" to autistic people because I agree that autism is a disability. It's like they can't get it through their heads that a person can be an equal to another person; and so they've got to create these unrealistic ideas that puts them at the top, undisputably. And then they fly off the handle when you correct them.

The Mary Sue is this problem personified--the person who decides that rather than creating a character who fits into the canon as an equal, they will create a character who will make canon their toy and be superior to everyone there, whether by overpowering them, seducing them, or just turning the canon into their personal playground.

I know people say Mary Sue when an OC is powerful; but that's not the big thing, at least not to me. The question is: Is the character realistic?

The power differential is also significant. If you have a very powerful character, who has very powerful opponents, then there's not a big power differential and there's no problem. For example: Harry Dresden. He's very powerful; but his enemies are just as powerful and often more so. Despite his high power level, he's not a Stu. (He's also got flaws which come back to bite him on the butt with regularity.)

Whereas, if you had someone with Harry Dresden's power level fighting opponents whom he could easily wipe the floor with, that would be a Stu, because the character would be a big old power fantasy.

The same applies for females. Check out Mariel, from the Redwall series. She's a good fighter and she can take on multiple opponents at once. She's tough, strong, and quick-thinking. But her opponents match her power level; they're a real threat to her, and she's not just standing there being awesome and grinding everyone into the dirt. Therefore, she's not a Sue.

WARNING - the following contains lots and lots of opinion.

Mary Sue, Marty Stu - the name is irrelevant. It would be nice to have some alternative gender-neutral phrase that snaps off the tongue, but we have to make do with the language we've been given. Unfortunately, said language opens us up to accusations of sexism and the like. Yes, it's true that male characters in both fanfiction and original fiction are given more leeway when it comes to being shallow self-inserts. Yes, female characters are more frequently bashed. Yes, it's a crying shame. But until we all become professional book critics (and how the world will shudder on that day, oh yes!), there is little we can personally do besides shout in the wilderness of the internet.

But anyway, what makes a Sue/Stu a Sue/Stu? Whenever I peruse a potential Suefic/Stufic, I have a mental checklist - a basic litmus test, if you will. If the story hits most or all of the points, then it's mission material.

Does the character have depth? If so, is that depth believable?
Flat, one-dimensional characters are not good for propelling a story. Neither are characters with personalities or backgrounds that make no sense. Here's an example from a DMS mission I'm working on wrapping up: the main character (a young woman) owns twelve nightclubs AND was a former top SAS sniper. While you're all counting the contradictions in that very short sentence, I'll be on the next point.

Is the character likable?
Note: I don't mean 'likable' as in 'morally good.' A well-crafted villain protagonist can be just as interesting a character as the Boy-Scoutiest of heroes. Let me be more blunt: is the character a douche and, if so, does her/his behavior go on uncalled? The tenth Fellowship member verbally castrates Boromir and Sam every chance she/he gets while everyone else watches and laughs. The fifth Survivor opens fire on a crowd of uninfected people without provocation and everyone else pays it no mind. That sort of thing.

Is the character substituting herself/himself for a canonical character?
What's that? Sam's dead? Don't worry Frodo, I, [insert name here], will help you take the Ring to Mount Doom! Along the way, we can explore how deeply in wuv with each other we are.

Is the character violating the rules of the canon without a proper and believable explanation?
'Proper and believable' are key words here. Anyone can make excuses for why their extra Organization XIII member can feel genuine emotions, or why their intelligent Special Infected OC has fully-functioning wings. If said excuses don't fit the rules of the world, then something is wrong.

Anyway, that's what I feel about this issue. I hope that all made sense and wasn't just me babbling.

(DISCLAIMER: THIS IS ONLY ONE PERSON'S OPINION. IT MAY NOT BE UTTERLY CORRECT, BUT SHE'S TRYING TO PUT IT OUT THERE IN ORDER TO FIND THE 'MOST CORRECT' THING,SO SHE CAN THEN FOLLOW THAT.)

The PPC doesn't go after authors, but what makes a Sue a Sue is very much an author's fault... whether the author knows it or not, the hallmark of a Suefic is that it somehow achieves a secret goal, one that doesn't exist to fit into the canon at all... but one that takes over and tramples it into the ground.

For example. I know this was true for me when I wrote suefics... I was 13 years old, and I was lonely, and I had no friends, and I felt my parents thought I was a useless shlub who couldn't do anything. And so what did I write? A 18 year old, sexy, popular, sassy girl who canons were friends with (despite the story!), who had amazing abilities (that didn't fit into canon at all) and saved the day (undermining the efforts of the canon characters).

I didn't realize it at the time, but I exorcised all of my desperate wants and insecurities as a character that ruined a story for her own gain. That character wanted so much. She was like a demon, that just wanted everything to satisfy her, and when she sucked the canon dry of everything she wanted in life, she didn't even care about finishing the story. It scares me today that I wrote such a horrid, shallow character. I didn't even realize I was doing it at the time... but my ulterior motives were there.

I'm not a stupid person for it. I just wasn't aware of what I was doing, and was possessed by the need to negatively channel my frustrations into writing (Write a story where NO ONE GIVES HER TROUBLE! NO ONE! NOT LIKE REAL LIFE!) rather than positively (Write a story where the hero overcomes problems and becomes a stronger person!). So that's why we don't get mad at Suethors... it's temporary.

But the Sue. How many times have you read a story and been like, 'Why does everything end up as a sex dream for this character? It's like a hand of God keeps handing her sex scenes for no reason,' or 'Why is this story continually trying to convince me that this character is cool? Can't he speak for himself?' Yeah, those are Sue/Stu stories. They break your suspension of disbelief because the person making them ignores the storytelling in favor of their own emotional wants. Even ones they aren't aware they have, sometimes...

(And it IS perfectly possible to want something but not be aware of it. Look at so many people who are overweight who would outwardly claim that they are fine with how they look, or fine with exercising to stay in shape, but also feel unwelcome in society... wishing they were accepted. I know when I was younger and felt that way, I suddenly had a lot of effortlessly 'skinny' characters... and I didn't realize why...)

As for Tamora Pierce, I suspect she's been very jaded by people defining Sues simply as 'female character with special traits.' I would be too, if a thousand people without organization insulted me and said my characters were shallow every day. But I don't think say... Alanna was a Mary Sue. She was confronted by very big problems and mostly overcame them on her own merits, no matter what special traits she had. One scene comes back to me vividly: when she discovers her training lance has been weighted to make her fail. And yet, she doesn't solve it by being special. She solves it by practicing and practicing and practicing until she succeeds with the rigged heavy lance and it makes her a stronger person.

She doesn't do anything she does because OUTSIDE THE STORY the person writing her 'secretly wants attention' or because 'she has insecurity issues' and is living vicariously through her. Her motivations exist within the story, INSIDE the story, and if she's insecure at times, it's because SHE IS. Not because being insecure gets her something.

It makes me mad, too, that so many people (mostly not PPC people) have this definition of Sue that means 'female character with special traits within the setting' because that means that if nearly every classical hero was female, they'd be a Sue. This isn't true.

No matter how much 'stuff' a character has, I usually hold this rule for Sues:

If a character exists to tell a story, and could have gone on living in the world even if there was no story to tell, they are not a Sue.

If a character exists to simply display traits or simply be desirable in some way (whether in power of beauty! It doesn't matter, only that they REALLY WANT YOU to like them because of what they are!) without fitting in to the world itself, then they are a Sue.

Whether they are a Sue/Stu worth killing remains to be seen. My definiton of a CanonStu is a little less stringent than many. To me, characters like Drizzt or Eragon are CanonSues/Stus: concessions are handed to them in their worlds to them that aren't found anywhere else. I actually know very few CanonSues written by female writers. Most of them are actually rather recent, actually. Bella from Twilight for example.

This is because I think many female writers (at least in the past) came from an adult feminist rather than a youngminded-romantic viewpoint. Many of them were there to write about the struggles and effort of this female character, how they earn their place in the world by the sweat of their brow and their own merits. Even if they have Teh Awesome in them. I know for a fact that was Tamora Pierce's point. In fact, you quoted her ranting about her characters' feminist history...

I'm afraid that last time this point came out on the Board, I didn't know that much about groups that oppose Sues other than the PPC. Nor have I bothered to remember what I already knew. Otherwise, my posts there would have been very different from the ones I put forth. Now, I think I've learned a few things about how the "Sue-Opposing" community really functions.

There are two types of criticism directed at Suefic. One is constructive criticism, in which one tries to tell an Author what they are doing wrong without trying to sound unnecessarily combative, and flaming, in which insults are hurled at the Author as well as the fic, sometimes verging on death threats. I had only been focusing on the former.

My perception was that most sporkers were like Neshomeh, Araeph, and July, who tried to help Authors but got flamed in response because their reviews weren't 100% percent praise. Araeph even gave an example in which a 30-year old Author gave her a flame out of proportion to the criticism. Fanficrants also has many examples in which relatively benign crit is met with shouting and insults.

Then, I began checking the review pages for Suefic on FF.N. While its true that there were people trying their best to help, pointing out the qualities and flaws of the story, there are also people who go "Mary Sue, Die!" or "I want to destroy everything you love, including your cellphone". Also, for every good Sue Parody fic, there are a bunch of bad ones that focus only on superficial symptoms.

Not merely that, but on other sporking sites (I won't name names), outrage at how the canon characters are OOC shells of their former selves are often derailed into personal attacks on the Author him/herself. Ironically, those sites also call themselves feminist for tackling issues like heteronromativity, rape culture, and so on. However, they have not tackled the questions you posted, at least to my knowledge.

So, where am I going with this? Let's just say that I can't disagree with you entirely, not anymore. I still belive that the PPC isn't wrong in what it does, but that doesn't mean there isn't a double standard, or that the term "Mary Sue" isn't used too often. I think that we do need a united defnition of a Sue, and that we should speak out against those who misuse the term.

I hope I don't come as calling for a crusade, or being aggressive again. Its just that there are two sides to every picture, and to me, the PPC was just focusing on one.

For me, what makes a Sue/Stu, is not as much how the character is and what it can do, as how it affects people around it. If people instantly trusts the character and let it do things it shouldn't be getting away with, it is probably a Sue/Stu.

Take for example the beautiful, second daugther of Elrond, who falls in love with Legolas as soon as she lays eyes on him and who sneaks into the council and then jumps out and demands to go with the Fellowship. Definite - one might even say, classic - Sue, right? Except that after jumping out and making demands, she is sternly but kindly told off by Elrond and sent to her room, and the Felloweship leaves without her at dusk (or dawn, depending on 'verse). In that case she is still uncanonical, but I would say that she is not a Sue, since everyone around her acts sensibly and in character.

In fanfiction, Sues and Stues are mostly easy to spot, since we know how the canon characters are supposed to act and can spot it when they are being warped. A stranger walking in and instantly becomming friends with everyone would be a Sue in most canon, (but not, for example, My Little Pony).

CanonStues (telescope-word, yay!) are harder to spot, because we don't know whether their surroundings are acting as they usually would, we can only look at whether we think they are reasonable, based on what we know of the setting. Also, while it is easy to see when someone is stealing the spotlight, it is much harder to see when the person who belongs in the spotlight is hogging it. Most main-characters has some degree of main-characterness (which TV-Tropes has an excellent word for, which I can't remeber nor find), which means that f.ex. people in high places at least listen to them, even if the don't comply with them, so the line gets fuzzy.

While I will agree with those who say that fanfiction-Stues are mostly females and written by females, I think it is annoying if someone tries to argue that the same goes for canon-Stues. My experience are that they are 50-50, when it comes to original characters.
You are rigth that male characters get away with a lot more than women, without being called Stues. I think that has something to do with more people having heard of Sues than of Stus, but also with the general tendency to look at male characters as ... characters, while female characters get scrutinized and usually found either too weak or to strong, too feminist or not feminist enough, not a good rolemodel for girls or a two-dimensional, boring character who always do the right things.
Mikael Blomkvist from 'The Girl With the Dragon Tattoo' is not just a Stu, he is a blatant self-insert by the author, but most people don't think about that. In fact most people don't think about him at all; meanwhile Lisbeth Salander gets poked and prodded and discussed, in a way that would never have happend if she had been a male sidekick.

This contains a more-than-healthy dose of subjectivity, so be warned :)

For me, a Sue in fanfiction becomes a Sue when the canon characters start to pay undue attention to her. My favourite example is a fic I read years ago which caused me to add 'anti-Sue' to my list of Sue classifications. The author had gone to great lengths to remove all Sueish traits from the character and, in the attempt, had removed most of her interesting traits as well. I literally do not remember anything about this character apart from thinking she was rather dull and didn't seem to have much to contribute, and having the niggling feeling that something was off about the way the canon characters were treating this utterly unremarkable person. I realised what it was when Erestor and Glorfindel took time out during the couple of days around the Council of Elrond to take her for a picnic: for some reason, all the canon characters she met became fascinated by her, despite the fact that there was nothing to draw real attention. In some ways, it would have been less noticable and irritating had she been a classic Sue with ethereal beauty and five different kinds of elemental magic, because there would have been a reason for the canon characters to notice her.

That same qualification can apply to original stories, though I've not seen the problem there as much. An example that comes to mind is actually for a male character who does actually have striking good looks, a reputation and a powerful organisation backing him, so the comparison is imperfect. The book in question is Clive Cussler's Lost City and (trying not to spoil it) I felt that the villains dedicated a level of energy to eliminating Kurt Austin, the hero, that seemed quite out of proportion to the actual threat he posed, setting elaborate and dangerous traps in order to gain the satisfaction of personally killing him. James Bond villains are much the same.
In both the Kurt Austin and James Bond cases, the villains have had a chance to get to know the hero and resent him. Far more telling is the way smaller characters interact with Austin (I've read that book more recently than anything Bond, so I'll stick with that example, though I'm aware it's more obscure). In many cases they take one look at him and know he's an honest badass with a plan. I call this instatrust and count it as part of the world revolving around a Sue (or Stu, in this case, since most action heroes are pretty blatent Stus).

Although, as I say, the comparison between Kurt Austin, head of the NUMA Special Assignments team, and a random teenaged girl is imperfect, Austin's influence is correspondingly wider in scope as he can persuade people to do things like lend him expensive equipment and potentially get themselves fired from their jobs without even having to show ID. I feel that the comparison therefore stands and undue attention (including instatrust and everything that happens being connected to him/her) is a reasonable Sue trait for both fanfic and canon purposes and, as we can see from this example, applies to both male and female characters.

(Others include having objective knowledge of in-story reality and never suffering from bad consequences, but this post is already far too long. I can go into them more if anyone cares to hear about it :) )

I'm a little sorry you posted that quote from Tamora Pierce, though. I never had a problem with her - read some of her books when I was a teenager and enjoyed them, and never considered Alanna a Sue. Still don't, looking back, if only because it seemed that she earned what she got. That quote, though... I can't read it without hearing "Oh yeah? Well... you're stupid!" and it's kind of given my opinion of her a knock.

Have you a link to that litmus test? I'm always interested in tests that don't go 'Is she pretty? Is she an elf? Is she related to a canon character? She's a Sue, then.'

The essence of the problem is always the lack of character - the ridiculous names, beauty, and skills tend to just be side effects of that problem, albeit far more overt.

...this issue came up on the Board (not the IRC). So I'm a bit nervous posting my views now. However, here are my arguments:

For me, what makes a Sue or Stu is the lack of real flaws and limits, with the latter more important than the former. Most of the characters sporked by the PPC have nothing going for them except a cliched corncoupia of awesome traits and powers, with a dash of tragic backstory that is soon forgotten after some moments of angst.

True, we do encounter "Not-Sues or Not-Stus" that are physically unattractive, can't do stuff considered cool, or are devoid of 'awesome' traits to the point of flatness. But on closer inspection, they still get everything for free most of the time, and when they don't, it's meant to be treated as a moment of utter unfairness from an unfair world and everyone is supposed to sympathise with them unless they're monsters in human shape.

Here's an example: Benjamin Perry* is 18, a nerd with conspicuous pimples and oily hair and a penchant for clumsiness. But then he falls in Middle-Earth, where he is accepted instantly into Rivendell, belived right away when he says that their story is published as fiction in the far-off future, and allowed to go with the Fellowship despite his aforementioned clumsiness.

There, he keeps tripping on tree roots every so often, and his unattractive features are described once every chapter. But, everyone loves him except Boromir (who, even when he raises practical objections to Ben's coming, is still protrayed as a one-dimensional jerk with nor redeeming qualities). Then, he saves Gandalf at Moria, and at Lorien, Galadriel makes much of his 'wisdom' and 'purity', even though those aren't shown beyond a few token mentions.

Then, he prevents the Fellowship from breaking by exposing Boromir as a coveteous liar just by showing Aragorn a passage from the book. Boromir is then given a humiliating exit, and then dies soon after without doing anything to redeem himself unlike in the book. This makes him best friends forever with the rest of the Fellowship, who take him to Mordor, where despite his clumsiness, he doesn't alert the orcs and other sentries.

Once they reach Mount Doom, he then destroys the Ring by ripping it off from Frodo and throwing it into the lava himself. He also has Sam kill Gollum by informing him that he'll be trying to attack Frodo on the Mountain. Once the mountain explodes, he then reassures the Fellowship that the Eagles are going to rescue them - despite the changes already made to the story. He is then given the highest honors when they get back to Minas Tirith, with everyone including Faramir suddnly forgetting about his part in Boromir's death.

On the Obverse, we have people who are Awesome and Tragic, unrealistically so. But they have some subtle flaw, some subtle limit, that makes them not a Sue/Stu. In fact, they can even be said to be Deconstructions of Sueish traits. Sorry to remind you of one of your debates in the IRC, but for me, most powerful-but-friendless characters fall into the Subtly Flawed/Subtly Limited camp.

For example, Paul Muad'dib from Dune has a lot of Sueish charactheristcs. Noble lineage, special powers and training, and a great and tragic injustice early in his life. But what makes him not a Stu is that even when he reaches a position of power, the Universe is not willing to let him walk all over it. Not merely that, but the series does not cover up his morally dubious deeds or pass them off as unambigiously correct.

If he was a Stu, then those who plot his overthrow (and suceed) woudn't be portrayed as having points. If he was a Stu, then he would have been portrayed as the victim of an uncaring, unfair world and everyone would have been expected to overlook his dark deeds. Nor would his fall have been portrayed as self-inflicted, at least in part.

There are also characters with Sueish traits but limited spotlight. For example, Faramir of LotR is everything Boromir isn't: He is scholarly, yet a good figther nonetheless, is able to see the larger picture, and is able to resist the power of the Ring. However, he only appears for a few chapters, where he is generally helpful to the protagonists and allows them their space in the story.

In fact, there are a lot of awesome, tragic, and otherwise Sueish characthers that avoid Suedom because they show respect to the protagonists and don't try to usurp their place. You may disagree with this view (and the others that I put forth), but for me, several characters you see as Sues and Stus aren't, and some characters you see as Not Sues, but just flat characters are, as they don't do anything to earn the good things they get.

As for my views on Tamora Price's statement and the "Sue-Opposing" movement at large, I'll make another post as this one has become too big.

*A character made up just now, but based on certain archetypes spoken about on other sites.

I have seen a lot of people use the label Mary Sue on a canon female character they didn't like. The only one that comes to mind now is in the Avatar (Last Airbender, the cartoon AKA good one. I ship TophxSokka, and a lot of people just labeled the opposing love interest, Suki, a Mary Sue. It does get grating, and almost made me stop reading the stories. Feeling shame for my Ship-mates isn't fun.

As for what makes a Mary Sue...Well, I can agree with your definition a lot, actually. In an Avatar story, Sokka gets powerful with non-canon powers, and it adds a lot of Cthulhu-esque themes and a complete non-canon race! But...I read it again, and while it pings my non-canon radar, I can't dislike it. Sokka is still Sokka, and everyone still treats him like usual (still the Butt Monkey).

To be honest, Eva didn't make me angry, with her elemental powers, because I have no objection with making powers up, or being different. Even the spells heather made up, with the exclusion of the Resurrection spell, didn;t make me angry. Heather herself made me angry. She, herself, was a horrible person and got away with it all, not being called out.

If we could use/make another word instead of Mary Sue, I'd be all for it. Making one would be an interesting time, I'm sure.

Looking back on the aspects of being a Mary Sue, having super powers, being powerful, being better, then wouldn't a lot of old FPS characters be? I remember in Medal of Honor: Frontline (Remember the begining of the PS2...I feel old now..) you are a person who is named only, but never talks, or communicates, and you kill swathes of enemies, and generally win the war yourself. I guess it could be more complicated then that, but it struck me just now. Just something to ponder.