Subject: Guys, guys, opinions required.
Author:
Posted on: 2014-01-06 05:38:00 UTC
Can Tenth Walker be done well?
The Emperor Protects!
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Guys, guys, opinions required. by
on 2014-01-06 05:38:00 UTC
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Re: Guys, guys, opinions required. by
on 2014-01-11 20:02:00 UTC
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Yes it can. If a Tenth Walker isnt a Mary Sue, actually contrubutes something outside of romantic involement, and adds some interesting elements to the story, then congats! You have created a good Tenth Walker!
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The Tenth Walker wiki page by
on 2014-01-09 09:10:00 UTC
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I think that this thread is seriously awesome and filled with great advice for anyone who would want to do a Tenth Walker. Would anyone mind terribly, if I took it upon myself to compile all the thoughts and advice (giving proper credit, of course) into a 'Tenth Walker in goodfic' section on the Tenth Walker wiki page?
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And done by
on 2014-01-10 18:37:00 UTC
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The references were a bit of a killer. I tried to credit everyone who first mentioned an idea, but I only linked to each post once. And if anyone has any idea what to call the links other than 'The Posting Board' I'll be happy to change them.
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That sounds great. by
on 2014-01-11 04:48:00 UTC
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Neshomeh's idea seems pretty good.
My glod, I've only been gone for a little less than a week and I've missed so much stuff!
~Autumn -
You can title them after the post subject line. by
on 2014-01-10 19:35:00 UTC
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Adding the name of the author is also a good idea. So, for instance, if you wanted to cite this post it would go:
* "You can title them after the post subject line" by Neshomeh
Looks a bit odd, especially next to story titles, but it works.
~Neshomeh, who has done this on other articles occasionally. -
Good idea. I did that. (nm) by
on 2014-01-10 20:14:00 UTC
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Maybe put the name of the Boarder in the link? (nm) by
on 2014-01-10 19:14:00 UTC
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Sounds brilliant. (nm) by
on 2014-01-09 16:37:00 UTC
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Please do! (nm) by
on 2014-01-09 15:07:00 UTC
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Sounds good to me. (nm) by
on 2014-01-09 09:49:00 UTC
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Most definitely. People can't think that 10th Walker=Sue. (nm) by
on 2014-01-09 09:45:00 UTC
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I think I've found the 10W that can't be well done. by
on 2014-01-08 10:02:00 UTC
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And it's a regrettably common one: the Fifth Hobbit.
The problems with this character - for the sake of this post, let's assume she's a female named Calanthe (it's a type of orchid) - are... well, several:
1/ She has no special skills, knowledge, or hangups, or at least no plausible backstory to give her them. Like the four canonical hobbits, she's... well, she's a hobbit! They don't have useful skills. Yes, she can learn things - but they're the same things the canon ones do. This means that, unlike, say, Snaga, she can't alter the course of the story when the Fellowship are all together. Like Merry and Pippin, she's just a tagalong at that point.
2/ She actually can change the story - but only by making things go wrong. Yes, she could get stabbed by a Nazgul, kidnapped by Moria Orcs, trapped by a Balrog - but how much do we hate a character who exists only to be clumsy and force everyone to pay attention to her? Very. Very much.
3/ After the Breaking of the Fellowship, she has three possible directions to go: she could tag along with Frodo, get captured with M&P, or stay behind with the Three Hunters. But...
3a/ The Three Hunters would never be able to catch the orcs if they had to drag a hobbit along with them, and anyway, we know that the hobbits all ran off to look for Frodo without waiting to plan. If you make Calanthe 'the only sensible hobbit', well, that's pushing her towards Suedom.
3b/ If she goes with Frodo (presumably by following Sam), then... well, again she could make things go wrong (Nazgul sees her, orcs capture her, Gollum sees her and doesn't get caught), but like I said, we hate that. After that... the only point I can see where she could make a difference other than doing something stupid is in helping Sam save Frodo from Shelob. And the result of that? Er... they either finish the Quest a day or so earlier, or they wander out into the massive orc encampment on Gorgoroth. Yes, you could write a story around that - but it's a lot of setup that you could skip over just by having Sam not get lost in the tunnel/turned back by Gollum.
3c/ She could go with M&P. There is one possible story here: one where Grishnákh takes her from Uglúk and manages to get her over the River. But the only way I can see that going is 'Calanthe is taken to Barad-dûr; Calanthe is tortured; Calanthe reveals that they're trying to destroy the Ring; Sauron kills everyone'.
3d/ But if that doesn't happen? When's the next time M&P do anything to affect the plot? They persuade Treebeard to call an Entmoot (as a team, and Calanthe wouldn't add anything to that), and then... hmm. Well, Pippin eventually helps save Faramir from Denethor's madness, and Merry even more eventually helps kill the Witch-King.
The problem is, M&P serve a specific role in the story, and it's not to drive the plot: they're there to give us a viewpoint. We know about the city of Minas Tirith because we follow Pippin on his tour. We know about Eowyn's bravery because Merry tags along with her. But... Gondor and Rohan are the two kingdoms we need to see. What observer role can Calanthe take that would shed new light on the War of the Ring? I can't come up with one that she could actually get to.
In fact, the only possibility I can think of for captured Calanthe is (apart from the torture scenario) for her to try and sneak into Orthanc after the Ents attack. We know Saruman still had ways to communicate to the outside, so there must be a secret tunnel somewhere. But I can't come up with a reason for her to do so - except to look in the Palantir earlier, and thereby call down a Nazgul on the Ents' heads. I can't find a story there, either.
So, a challenge to everyone, from the person who's been proving it can be done: find a story which relies on the presence of a Fifth Hobbit Tenth Walker. You can use Calanthe, or make your own Shire, Buckland or Bree hobbit for the purpose, with appropriate skills. Just please - find something. It's bugging me.
hS -
It's run kind of into the ground, but... by
on 2014-01-09 05:52:00 UTC
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How can you do "random person falls into Middle-earth" well without just doing "Don't Panic" again?
(Really? Fifth Hobbits are common? I thought most 10Ws were bamf-fics, shows what I know...) -
The way I see it, you've got two options. by
on 2014-01-09 13:22:00 UTC
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One: play it completely for laughs. The culture shock, the meta aspects, whatever. Hell, you could and should pick someone patently unsuited to the task, like a children's party entertainer-
Oh, that's brilliant! Send Derren Brown or Dynamo or whoever tumbling out of the sky and, since he'd describe himself as a magician, have people think he's some sort of sixth Istar! That'd be perfect; him running around trying to keep up the disguise of a mighty Wizard while a quest to save the world hangs in the balance... there's potential in that.
The other option is that you do a much darker story. For example, let's have a weapons historian transported to Middle-Earth. One who specialises in the history of firearms. The resultant escalation of conflict becomes a lot more interesting when you consider that they don't necessarily have to land in the West.
I personally like this conceit because when it comes to early firearms, in a lot of respects bows are better. They're more accurate, faster to fire and reload, and they don't nearly break your shoulder when you try and use them. However, guns are much better at piercing armour and can absolutely destroy a cavalry charge if you allow socket bayonets to be a thing. Iunno, maybe it's just me, but I really like the idea of Faramir conducting the defence of Osgiliath with the addition of early blackpowder weaponry.
Maybe that strays more into another type of fic - the "gun porn in an ostensibly fantasy world" fic. They're bloody difficult to do right, but as with anything, the good stuff is really good. =o]
--parp -
Also, the explosion from firearms are scary. by
on 2014-01-09 21:08:00 UTC
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And despite the technology required to manucfacture both guns and gunpowder, it is easier and quicker to train recruits with than bows or crossbows. Sauron was a student of Aule, he would be able to mass-produce firearms and gonpowder quickly.
Imagine a horde of Orc armies about to be charged by Rohirrim. But instead of bows, the orcs used firearms instead. There would be no need for Nazghul there, Gondor would lose hope faster than Niniel knowing who her brother was. -
Therein lies the rub... by
on 2014-01-10 00:15:00 UTC
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Would you trust a matchlock arquebus built and maintained by Orcs? These are the minions of Sauron we're talking about here. I would not trust them with anything more complicated than a frelling spoon.
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Orcs are evil. But also quite smart. by
on 2014-01-10 03:20:00 UTC
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They are capable of machinery, such as crossbows, siege engines, and others. In fact, Tolkien envisions that we learn mechanical engineering from the Orcs. I'm sure the Orcs could manage a few foundries and gunpowder factories. Provided they don't fight over each other too often.
Or some engineers from Khand and Harad could do the gunmaking, while Orcs just shoot and maintain. Early firearms IRL do fail often, and sometimes explosively. If anything else, Orcs are expendable. -
That's exactly my point. by
on 2014-01-10 09:26:00 UTC
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Early firearms do blow up if they aren't maintained properly - and I would not trust an Orc, no matter how smart, to maintain them in the correct manner. This is at least in part because you need good quality metal for gun barrels, and orcish smithies produce a lot of cheap metal... with the structural integrity of a wet paper towel. This was sort of Tolkien's point regarding them; that mass-production was never going to be as fit for purpose as small-batch craftsmanship, thus serving the greater point that the modern world was fundamentally inferior to the Britain that had gone before.
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I'm not sure it was. by
on 2014-01-10 10:04:00 UTC
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From the very beginning, with the Fall of Gondolin in 1917, Tolkien drew a very clear link between orcish inventions (or at least, Melkor's) and the weapons of the First World War. Gondolin falls to dragons built like tanks - of metal plate. The Fall of Gondolin, in many ways, is Tolkien's way of getting the Somme out of his head.
And yes, Tolkien is clear that Orc-like machinery is a bad thing - but not that it doesn't work. Saruman's recreation of Isengard doesn't fail because his waterwheels fell apart and his gunpowder (used to destroy the Deeping Wall in the assault on the Hornburg) blew itself up - he fails because the forces of nature wake up and stop him.
Seriously, we know orcs had decent weapons - they managed to destroy multiple elven kingdoms with them (including Eregion, a place made up seemingly entirely of smiths). They're not very pretty weapons - but Sauron has spent six thousand years leading various armies; he knows how valuable proper arms and armour are.
Could an orc invent a gun? Probably not. Could an orc maintain a handgun? I don't know - I'm inclined to think they haven't the patience. Could an orc maintain, fire, and effectively deploy a cannon? I'm going to say yes.
The next question is: can Numenorean 'unbreakable' stonework hold up to cannon fire? [Ducks]
hS -
Very well reasoned. by
on 2014-01-10 14:46:00 UTC
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I'd be willing to say quite poorly. Ironically, it depends if they're willing to get the White City a bit grubby; cannon balls like hard stone to strike against, not soft mud. Damage, yes. Break, especially since these are (out of necessity) really early cannons we're talking about and they build mud walls to support the stonework? I'm dubious.
Of course, it's all a bit moot if they develop case shot and strip the walls bare of Gondorian defenders. They're not a British army in a colonial theatre; they could probably win a battle against angry people with spears. -
One idea by
on 2014-01-08 18:01:00 UTC
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(I don't have the books with me at work, so this is purely from memory.)
The Took family is the closest the Hobbits get to hereditary royalty, with their hammerlock on the office of Thain. Presumably Pippin was the eldest male of his generation, since he ends up with that title. What if Pippin's dad didn't want his son and heir charging off into the wilderness, and got a Shirrif (spelling?) to chase Pippin down? Perhaps the problems that will eventually require the Scouring of the Shire are showing up as Frodo makes his plans to leave, and the Thain wants everyone in his family at home and preparing for trouble.
A Hobbit who starts off with actual combat training means it'll be a little harder for the other races to dismiss Hobbits ... which could be good or bad for the other four Hobbits. And the Fellowship could certainly use another fighter.
On the other hand, once that hypothetical Shirrif catches up to Pippin, he's not going to simply join the Fellowship. His job is to get this idiot kid back home. You can't add a military force between the Shire and Rivendell to block the Hobbits' return without either "Sauron Wins" or "WHAT Shire?" -
Well, you sort of can. by
on 2014-01-08 18:18:00 UTC
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Elrond (or someone) points out that the road back west will be paradoxically more dangerous than heading back towards Mordor - because Sauron knows the Ring is in Rivendell, and knows that the only solution the elves have ever come up with to, like, anything is 'The Sea!'. So have your Shirriff (Robin Smallburrow, 'Cock Robin', maybe?) have to fight/evade a fair number of enemies getting to Rivendell - in fact, make that why he takes over a month to get there and only arrives after the Fellowship leaves.
Of course, the Shirriffs weren't exactly a fighting force, but you're right that it gives him a little more to work with. Plus, not having the Ring with him, he'll have a far easier time sneaking through the gauntlet - and a chance to develop a few fighting skills on the way.
And we know Thain Paladin II is the sort to think of it - he held Tookland against Saruman's ruffians, after all. It could work.
hS -
In similar vein... by
on 2014-01-08 22:56:00 UTC
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This is a problem I see with people having Eomer as a member of the Fellowship - it'd be more expedient for Grima to send the king's son on the road to Rivendell and have the Third Marshall banished in the meantime. Theodred as a Walker, plus a militaristic, club-wielding hobbit as his companion? It could foreshadow the friendship and platonic love between Eowyn and Merry very effectively.
My dream Fellowship is thus:-
Frodo
Sam
Merry
Pippin
Gandalf
Aragorn
Faramir
Theodred
Gimli
Also maybe this Tauriel person everyone's talking about because Goddammit the Fellowship is way too much of a sausage party. -
A thought. by
on 2014-01-08 15:22:00 UTC
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Not much of one, but maybe you can make something of it: what about Fredegar Bolger, or someone like him? He didn't want to go along, but supposing he'd been dragged along anyway, he could provide a dose of much-needed caution to his more reckless friends. "No, wait, don't throw that stone down the spooky well!" - "Don't touch the mysterious shiny object!" - and so forth.
Fredegar in particular being there may also mean there's no one staying behind in Crickhollow to keep up the ruse of Frodo's move there, which might have serious Nazgul-related repercussions. A fifth, less iron-willed hobbit might slow the company down somewhat, also, which would change the timeline—probably for the worse, but maybe not. Later, supposing he stays with Merry and the Rohirrim, maybe Eowyn can't manage taking two hobbits with her to war, so they stay behind in Rohan, and we find out what happens there. Maybe not much, but maybe something?
... That's all I've got.
On a related note, Phobos and I got to talking about alternative Fellowship members last night. I think you absolutely need Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, and Aragorn, but you can change out the rest (with the possible exception of Gimli, whose very particular outlook and expertise are quite important in Moria and Helm's Deep). For instance, what if Faramir carried the message to Rivendell like he wanted and Boromir stayed behind to do what he does best? Drawing from the movieverse, what if Thranduil sent his badass captain of the guards instead of his as-far-as-we-know only son and heir? What if the Dwarves of Erebor sent one of Bard's sons as their messenger? What if Elrond chose Elladan and Elrohir for the Elves, or perhaps in place of Merry and Pippin (leading to the two of them catching up with the group later a la your first scenario)?
I've been enjoying this whole experiment, by the way. I finally caught up on all eight stories yesterday, and all I can say is great work! You're fighting the good fight for good fic here, and I salute you.
~Neshomeh -
Building a Fellowship by
on 2014-01-08 18:38:00 UTC
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So, working off of that conversation, here are my picks for the Fellowship:
1) Frodo - He will do it. He will take the Ring to Mordor.
2) Sam - You need someone to do the cooking, and just try getting rid of him.
3) Aragorn - Extremely useful to have on a long journey through the wilderness. Also good in a fight. I'm sure the whole "King-in-exile" thing helps, too.
4) Gandalf the Grey - Walking into Mordor? Better bring the big guns.
5) Gimli - Useful in a fight. Also, one never knows when one might need a Dwarf to toss.
6) Faramir - Leave Boromir, doing what he does best, in Gondor. Faramir is the better choice for this job.
7) Elrond - I did say to bring the big guns, right? Lore-master, healer, and badass; not to mention his personal investment in seeing the quest completed. He can leave his house in the care of his children and Erestor.
8) Glorfindel - For those complaining about a lack of blond elves, I have a much better option than Legolas. Glorfindel has already saved Frodo once by that point, after all. He is a consummate badass
9) Radagast the Brown - One word: Reconnaissance. Need to know where the Orcs are? Send a bird to check. Talk to a local burrowing creature to find out what's going on in Moria. This guy might be reclusive, but he would be amazingly useful.
So there you go. Two hobbits, two men, two wizards, two elves, and a dwarf. Find me another able-bodied dwarf and you've got a perfectly balanced party of ten walkers.
-Phobos -
I know what this thread needs. by
on 2014-01-10 15:26:00 UTC
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... a text adventure where you get to assemble your Dream Fellowship.
You are Denethor, Steward of Minas Tirith. Your pansy younger son has just come to you with some wishy-washy dream he had about elves. Unfortunately, your pride and joy older son has been infected with the same dream. They are demanding someone go and find this 'Imladris' place. Do you:
a) Send Boromir.
b) Send Faramir.
c) Go yourself.
d) Send some random guard named Beregond.
You are Frodo Baggins of Hobbiton. Your friends have just revealed that they know all about your plans and intend to come with you. Do you:
a) Tell them to go boil their heads in bathwater, and go alone.
b) Tell them Sam is the only Gandalf-approved companion.
c) Allow the depressingly cheerful Merry and Pippin to join you, while 'Fatty' watches the house.
d) Insist that everyone who knows anything has to go with you.
e) Storm off, steal a horse, and scour the Shire for other companions.
I'm seeing options for Farmer Maggot, Rosie Cotton, and Sancho Proudfoot to join...
hS -
Moria: It is pitch dark. You may be pwned by a Balrog. (nm) by
on 2014-01-10 16:36:00 UTC
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And the award for in-joke of the week goes to... (nm) by
on 2014-01-12 08:44:00 UTC
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... I think I need to break out the Javascript. (nm) by
on 2014-01-10 16:40:00 UTC
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An expansion on my above Fellowship by
on 2014-01-09 19:18:00 UTC
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Since hS has given us some idea of what his Fellowship might do, I will share the story that Nesh and I came up with for my group. I didn't have this at the time I made the Fellowship (which was supposed to be overpowered to the point of ridiculousness), but it actually seems to work, somewhat.
Book 1: Fellowship of the Ring
So, the purpose of the Fellowship setting out in the first place is not just about taking the Ring to Mordor. It is also about holding Saruman responsible for his actions, which is why Radagast is involved at all.
So, the Fellowship goes straight for the Gap of Rohan and Radagast sends messages to Lórien to secure Galadriel's aid. The battle for Isengard begins.
Book 2: Tower of the White Hand
The battle for Isengard would be fought by Elves from the Golden Wood and Men of Rohan (Wormtongue would need to be dealt with at some point during the siege). Gandalf and Radagast would need to get the Ents and Huorns to come to their aid, as well.
Neshomeh made the point that the power of the One Ring might well make people more susceptible to the voice of Saruman, which makes him even more dangerous than he already is. Adding to that, with at least three rings of power arrayed against him, Sauron is likely to send the Nazgûl on their fell beasts. As an answer to the Nazgûl, Radagast secures the help of Gwaihir the Windlord, who sends some Eagles to fight them in the air. Glorfindel, Gimli, and Aragorn lead the armies of Elves and Men against the Uruk-hai and Dunlendings.
The siege might end with the release of the river, but I think that it would likely require Gandalf and Radagast to confront Saruman directly. In the end, he would be removed to Lothlórien and kept under guard. One of the interesting results of this, in my mind, would be Gandalf the Grey becoming Gandalf the White as he steps into the leadership role of the Wizards. And more interesting than that is the ascension of Radagast the Brown to Radagast the Blue (Possibly. I'm not sure about the color hierarchy). Radagast's journey and growth in this first part of the story is very interesting to me, and his change of color is a result of his getting back on the path that he was supposed to be on.
After the fall of Isengard, the Fellowship will split. Radagast the Blue would go to Lothlórien as an escort for Saruman and then on to Mirkwood to fight the forces out of Dol Guldur (maybe not headed by Khamûl, the Shadow of the East, due to the Battle of Isengard) and protect his home, alongside Thranduil and his Elves.
Gandalf, Elrond, Faramir, Aragorn and Galadriel head to Gondor at the head of the army of the New Alliance of Elves and Men. This is to draw Sauron's eye toward Gondor. The hope is that Sauron, who is aware of the One Ring's proximity to the palantir of Orthanc, will see all the force marching and assume that they are massing around the might of four rings of power in order to push into Mordor through the Black Gate. This will be his fear because of the defeat that the Nazgûl suffer at Isengard and because Gondor has been putting up a very good fight behind Boromir, Captain of the White Tower, and are not in such dire straits as we saw in the books.
The rest of the Fellowship, consisting of Frodo, Sam, Gimli, and Glorfindel, head northeast across Rohan, through the Wold (where they find Gollum coming south from Moria), and passing to the north of Emyn Muil and the Dead Marshes and coming at the mountains from the North. They will need to find a way through the mountains, but with Gimli and Glorfindel they stand a chance of making it into Mordor.
Book 3: The Mountain and the Field
Seeing the might of the Alliance coming to Gondor, Sauron launches his offensive. Because Aragorn doesn't go through the Paths of the Dead, the ships from the south are still full of Coursairs of Umbar who will fight for Sauron. Faramir and Boromir come together to turn their father from his despair, and the Steward of Gondor leads his army into battle.
I don't know if the quest is successful or how the Battle of Pelennor Fields ends, but I feel like we stand a good chance of losing some main characters. I think this is an interesting potential AU, and I wish that I had the time, knowledge, and skill to give it the treatment it deserves. Clearly it would need a lot of work even in the concept stage.
So...questions? Comments? Concerns?
-Phobos -
I think you're right. by
on 2014-01-10 09:41:00 UTC
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This would need heaps of background work before you ever set key to doc.
The first point, actually, is your whole premise: why are they taking the One Ring into range of Saruman, when Saruman is known to be searching for it? That needs explaining, and to make a good AU, it should be tied into your previous changes - in this case, why Faramir instead of Boromir came to Imladris.
And I think that's the answer. Saruman, in your scenario, is taking far more of his own actions, rather than waiting for Sauron's command. He has his army - initially Dunlendings, later supplemented by orcs and half-orcs (footnote: in the Bookverse, 'Uruk-Hai' just means 'Orc-folk'; it's a term for big orcs. The crossbreeds Saruman created are technically half-orcs. This doesn't apply in the Movieverse, of course) - out patrolling the west bank of Anduin, as far up and down as he can reach (which, in practice, means midway up Mirkwood, all the way down to Cair Andros). That means Denethor is unwilling to send his Captain off on some mad quest - and that there's no longer any safe route for the Fellowship past Caradhras.
So, the council decides, if stealth alone won't work, stealth and one MASSIVE misdirection ploy might (and Legolas suggests it - 'A diversion!' ;)). Get the biggest guns you can find, and throw them all at Saruman. And, since we're going all-out here: reveal the identity of the Elven Ringbearers. Sauron doesn't know, you see: he suspects Galadriel has one, but he isn't sure. But after this? He will be.
A Palantir would be immensely useful here, if we can get it - since Gandalf knows about Saruman's, we may need an infiltration mission into Orthanc before the main assault. And - the keystone of the plan - at the height of the battle, when defended by the Three and under assault by Nazgul, Frodo has to put on the Ring. Sauron needs to know it's there - otherwise the rest of the plan won't work.
And the rest of the plan is: throw Minas Tirith to the wolves. Aragorn and Faramir, between them, have just enough right to do this. The plan is to keep the Three very much out in the open, so Sauron is sure the One is with them. Then, as you say, sneak the One in round the back while Sauron pours everything out.
A few miscellaneous points:
-There is no 'colour hierarchy' as such. The White Wizard is head of the Order, but that's as far as it goes. I agree about a colour change for Radagast; Blue or Grey would work, or any other colour that scans (it needs to be a monosyllable - Red, Pink(!), even Black would work if you aimed at 'hidden in the shadows' rather than 'eeeeeevil'; remember that Melkor's greatest crime was to turn the darkness the Elves awoke to, into something to be feared). And I think the growth of his character would be fascinating.And then he died and comes back as Paul McGann...
-What would Sauron have up his sleeve? We know he has three of the Seven Rings, and has held two of them for a significant period. Does he have Bearers for them? The Mouth of Sauron is certainly a candidate. And Sauron holds onto the Nine - would the Nazgul be more powerful if they actually held their rings, despite the risk of them rebelling?
There's also a Balrog still hidden in Moria, which no-one knows about. Could Sauron awaken it? He couldn't order it around, it's his equal, a lieutenant of Melkor - but he could make an alliance with it. And Lorien is right in its path - with no Galadriel or Nenya to hold it back...
-Gollum. In the book and movies, Gollum found Frodo and Sam because he followed them since Moria. Assuming the Balrog awoke, he could well have left Moria (running in fear), but I think it's unlikely the Fellowship would just happen to run into him. I'm also not sure he'd be all that useful - they're not using his knowledge of Cirith Ungol, so you'd literally be bringing him along on a whim.
-Glorfindel and Gimli are great choices for guides. Gimli, of course, is a dwarf, and so will do well in the mountains. Glorfindel? He was there when the Last Alliance took Mordor. He knows his way around.
-And the final outcome... it really depends. Does Gondor have time to call for aid from the southern provinces? The timeline is changes, so the Corsairs may not yet have arrived - meaning more soldiers at Minas Tirith, but also far greater damage in the south. And who else is coming? Are the Ents marching to Gondor?
The problem is, while the New Alliance is certainly larger than the equivalent in the books, they're going to be coming in piecemeal. The Rohirrim will move faster than the elves, who will probably outpace the Ents. You could slow them all down - but then, as Merry said, they might just arrive in time to disrupt the orcs' celebration feast.
But then there's Sauron's problems. He hasn't had the same amount of time to muster the Haradrim and the Easterlings. The army of Morgul can certainly attack - but Mordor itself, in the book, was kept in reserve and only used at the Morannon. Would he send out everything, and risk losing it all? Would he use only part of his strength, hoping they might be able to hold? Or would he try and cheat - offer up, maybe, his own surrender in the face of so mighty an army? It worked last time, after all...
-The northern battle will be critical - if nothing else, Sauron will definitely want the Dol Guldur forces to move on Gondor. Radagast needs to fly north as fast as he can, to get everyone moving: Thranduil, Ergaroth, Dale, Erebor, even the Beornings and any dwarves left in the Iron Hills. No time to plan in advance - he'll have to act as messenger while they're already on the move.
-I think you should rename the first book 'The Company of the Ring'. That way you have new titles throughout. ;)
hS -
Wow... by
on 2014-01-10 16:16:00 UTC
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I'm surprised it works as well as it does, considering the only research I did was on places and people. Thank you for so much detailed feedback.
So, where to begin...
The bit about Saruman changing the game by taking more of his own action makes a lot of sense. This is the sort of information that I am not knowledgeable enough to come up with.
As I understand it, one of the major reasons that the Elven Rings were hidden was because, while Sauron had the One, they could fall under his control. It would not have been so easy a task as taking control of the others, because he had no part in their making, but it could still have been done. If that holds, they are hiding the rings now because there was always a chance that the One would find its way back to him, and they were guarding against that chance. Now that they know where the One is, and this is an all-or-nothing fight, there is no reason to remain hidden.
Frodo is going to be in massive amounts of danger in this version of the story. It is going to be very risky, putting the Ring on while standing on Saruman's front lawn and with Nazgul overhead. Very risky, but potentially lots of reward.
Radagast the Green, perhaps?
In the videogame "Lord of the Rings: War in the North" (which is great, if anyone ever wants to give it a try) the characters battle a Black Numenorean who was taught sorcery by Sauron. He is gathering an army of Gundabad Orcs and Olog-hai in Carn Dum for an assault on the peaceful lands of the North. If he were canon in the books or movies, he might be a candidate to be a Ringbearer for one of the Dwarf Rings.
The Balrog of Moria is an interesting case. I don't know that anyone really knows that it is down there, except maybe the Goblins. I think the only reason it was a problem for the Fellowship was because another Maia came barging through its home. I don't know that it was really active before that, or if Sauron would even know to send a summons. If he does bring it into the fight...the Golden Wood might well burn.
Gollum would probably not be useful. I don't know how they would deal with him, but he is still being drawn to the Ring, and he hasn't really been in any of the other discussions in this thread, so I thought him worth mentioning here. All he can really do is cause Frodo trouble, I guess.
I thought those two would be useful companions on this quest. Glad you agree.
All of those are good questions...and I really only have an answer to one of them. I don't think the Ents could be convinced to march to Gondor. They might be better sent to Lothlorien. Especially if word gets out about a Balrog coming down from Moria.
As for the northern battle, you have to remember that Legolas and Gloin were in Rivendell and didn't travel with the Company of the Ring (because that is a good name for it). So what are they doing? Traveling back to their homelands and bringing word of the war to their people. It will be up to them to get Mirkwood, Erebor, Dale, and whoever else they can muster, ready for battle. They could, depending on how the timelines work out, end up fighting the combined might of Dol Guldur and Moria somewhere near Lothlorien.
-Phobos -
And presenting: the Fellowship of the Silly. by
on 2014-01-09 14:03:00 UTC
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1) Bilbo Baggins. Ringbearer. He was rather more emphatic that he should be the one to 'finish it' - and spends much of the Quest scribbling in his diary while stroking his precious burden.
2) Fredegar 'Fatty' Bolger. The fifth hobbit of the five who left the Shire; it emerges that he has a streak of bravery in him which causes him to volunteer to join Bilbo.
3) Tom Bombadil. It turns out that 'he will not pass the borders' actually means 'I don't feel like it right now'; when the hobbits get in trouble on the Road, Frodo sings the song and Bombadil comes to their aid. He then accompanies them to Rivendell.
4) Barliman Butterbur. When Aragorn asks 'Who should they take with them instead? A fat innkeeper...' Butterbur's pride is stung, and he declares that yes, he will guide the hobbits to Rivendell. Sam is rather pleased with this - though since Butterbur's plan is 'walk along the Road', Merry gets killed by a Nazgul along the way. Poor Merry. :(
5) Bill Ferny. Insists that since he's selling them his pony, he has to come along to keep an eye on things.
6) Gríma son of Gálmód. While passing through Rohan, Boromir asked for a guide, and received the king's counsellor. Gríma was under the impression that he was only leading Boromir as far as the Isen, but having found himself in Rivendell, is trying to make the best of it.
7) Balin son of Fundin. He was shot in the dale while looking into Mirrormere, but not killed. Instead he was rescued by elves and taken to Lorien to be healed; since then he has been living in Rivendell. Of course, being about 250, he is well into his dotage.
8) Gollum. Brought from Mirkwood by Legolas in case Elrond wanted to question him, he is deemed to be 'the best possible guide, under the circumstances'.
9) Erestor of Rivendell. As Elrond pointed out, 'Someone needs to look after this mess of a Fellowship.' Erestor was not best pleased by his assignment.
Anyone want to write that?
hS -
An even alternater Fellowship. by
on 2014-01-09 12:12:00 UTC
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(Warning: multiple unrelated tweaks to canon incoming. This story should never be written without serious justification)
1) Sam Gamgee. Although Frodo is healed by Elrond of the Morgul wound, he managed to fall off Asfaloth and break his arm in three places. Unable to continue the Quest, he passes the Ring to Sam (with great effort of will).
2) Radagast the Brown. Since Gandalf is still imprisoned in Orthanc (apparently Saruman realised that 'on the roof' isn't the best place to lock him up), Radagast was summoned by Elrond at the last minute.
3) Eowyn of Rohan. Frustrated by Wormtongue's influence in Rohan, she disguised herself as Dernhelm and accompanied Boromir to Rivendell. Sure, the disguise didn't hold very long - but long enough to get her on her way.
(As a result of her testimony, Aragorn and Boromir head straight back south towards Rohan. If Saruman is meddling with Gondor's only ally, that needs immediate attention. The Fellowship won't be going their way)
4) Tauriel of Mirkwood. Totally-not-dead Captain of the Guard, sent by Thranduil to bring word. She has a vested interest/obsession with fighting the Enemy.
5) Thorin Stonehelm. Like Denethor, Dain II Ironfoot sent his son and heir to bring word to Rivendell.
6) Glorfindel of Imladris. While I like the idea of Elrond joining the Fellowship, I don't think he'd take Vilya out of Rivendell. Glorfindel is the only elf around (except Galadriel) who can definitely drive off a Ringwraith. We need him.
7) Bard of Dale. Bard son of Brand son of Bain son of the more famous Bard. He chose to accompany his friend Thorin to Rivendell. (Yes, this leaves both realms without their heirs; I think that's plot-relevant)
8) Arwen Evenstar. According to The Laws and Customs among the Eldar, Elves weren't sexist - they viewed men and women as equal, with the sole exception that only women could bear children. This meant that women didn't tend to go to war - and thus, since fighting dulls the elven healing skill (somehow), were generally better healers. ' Indeed in dire straits or desperate defence, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength in speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child that is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.' A psychic healer is a very useful person to have around - and it should be noted that she's probably both capable of and permitted to make lembas (a right and recipe reserved to queens and high ladies of the Eldar). I bet that would come in handy.
9) ... wow, turns out that without four hobbits to make up the numbers, it's really hard to come out with a good nine. I've already got three elves and two humans; there's no wizards on hand, and the only other young dwarf I know of is Gimli. So, since Aragorn's not coming, let's go with...
9) Halbarad the Dúnadan. Kinsman to Aragorn and (in LotR) leader of the Grey Company. He has the skills to bring the Neo-Fellowship through any amount of rough terrain, even when out of his native land. Plus, Don't Panic left me with a soft spot for him.
Obviously, this Fellowship will do things very differently. With no less than four Mirkwood-locals, they would take the High Pass (kept open by the Beornings), and then the Elven Road to Thranduil's halls. After that (and after anyone had left who wanted to - I foresee the entire Fellowship getting caught up in the wars around Dale), they would head down through eastern Rhovanion to come at Mordor from the north. It's possible they would take boats down the Celduin/River Running, maybe even all the way to Dorwinion on the Sea of Rhûn (and the descendents of King Bladorthin?), and actually enter Mordor from the east.
Who would they meet? In rough order: Beornings, Elves, Men of Esgaroth, Dwarves, Easterlings, Orcs. This would be a great chance to explore the Easterlings a bit, and maybe even see the back-lines of Mordor.
And as for the Ring... I'm afraid Eowyn is probably going to try and steal it. Much like Boromir, she has that burning urge to protect her homeland. She may even end up fighting Thorin or Bard over it...
hS -
DRAT. DON'T MAKE ME WANT TO WRITE THIS. by
on 2014-01-31 16:53:00 UTC
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I've already shelved a Dark!Bilbo fic where Frodo and Co. set out to discover the truth of what happened after Bilbo remained at Erebor as Thorin's advisor and the Ring makes him go grimdark crazy. You've got me wanting to write about Easterlings and the three ladies of this Fellowship kicking ass and taking names and braiding the guys' hair on slow days.
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...someone please write Tauriel as a Walker... by
on 2014-01-08 16:50:00 UTC
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...instead of Legolas, that would be incredible.
I mean, first of all, we could see how she's changed over the years. But apart from that--we know she's not as opposed to Dwarves. She's (presumably) younger, definitely more open-minded...and now I really want a short scene of Glorfindel double-checking that she's not a Feanorian, because that would be trouble.
We know she can fight very well--captain of the guard, and we've seen her in action--and, well, she's also got some of the wide-eyed wonder that Book Legolas has...
So yes. I would love to see a Fellowship with the essential Frodo, Sam, Gandalf, and Aragorn, along with Tauriel, Gimli, Faramir, possibly a Rider of Rohan, and, potentially, Merry (with Pippin probably catching up later). I think that could be very interesting.
...someone, please, stop me from trying to write it as a full-length fic. It'll never get done, and neither will anything else.
(although, if someone else wants to write it... *hopeful expression*)
~DF -
Isn't she enough of a Sue already? :P (nm) by
on 2014-01-09 05:54:00 UTC
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-
Problem is... by
on 2014-01-08 18:08:00 UTC
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... I'm personally convinced that she's going to die alongside Kili in the next film. So you'd be making two changes, and...
... and I don't care. :P Make the Rider Eomer (because he and Faramir are known to get on later - I can see him, in his position as Third Marshall, taking it upon himself to join Faramir on the way to Rivendell), and make the story happen.
hS -
Looking at Rohan. by
on 2014-01-08 15:47:00 UTC
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One story I considered and discarded was leaving Calawhatsit - or, in your case, Fredegar the biggest (har har) dropped character - at Dunharrow. But I couldn't see a way to make that a story - or at least, a story that couldn't equally well be told be Generic Rohir Number Three. There's no war going on in Rohan, so you're left with 'peasant has a hard life and then the king dies'.
And this is the problem with all the Fifth Hobbit scenarios. I can't find a story that doesn't either make the character pointless (as discussed), or rely on them being inexplicably better than the others (being the one to stop Pippin), or simply make things worse. For instance, let's say Eowyn can only take one hobbit, and chooses Fredegar - who fails to help kill the Witch-King. So Eowyn dies, and Minas Tirith probably falls, and Gorgoroth is still full of orcs, and Frodo dies, and Sauron wins. Or I suppose Aragorn and the Grey Company could ride to Mordor alone, making a lightning strike past Minas Morgul to try and hit the Black Tower before the massive army behind them catches up and murders them...? Which could be a fun story, but... most people don't want to add a Tenth Walker to do nothing for most of the Quest and then make everything go dark.
Your alternative Walkers: I think you could actually get rid of Aragorn, too - by sending him off with Boromir to Minas Tirith, and letting his adoptive brothers take on the Ring Quest (they are, after all, far more experienced than him). If Frodo goes (and can we make that an 'if'...?), Sam will - and Gandalf is 'Sauron's Enemy', so yes, he'll be there. But after that, you really can design your own team.
Will that make things go differently? Sure! Take out Boromir, and there's no reason to go south - so the Dale-and-Mirkwood party could make a solid case for taking the High Pass (despite the danger - maybe they can team up with their returning relatives for the crossing), then crossing Mirkwood on the Forest Road and trekking down the eastern side (you can't go down the west side and round the bottom, that's Dol Guldur). Take out Gimli, and you lose a second advocate for Moria - but take out Aragorn, and you lose the fiercest opponent, and maybe Gandalf can take them straight there, thus tweaking the timeline just enough that - even with all else going as it does - the Three Hunters (whoever they are) reach Rohan before the Battle of the Fords of Isen, and Theodred is still alive...
It all goes round and round. That said, I think my favourite idea is the one I'm not sure you actually made: Thranduil sending (a not-dead and fully rehabilitated) Tauriel instead of Legolas. Particularly since she has a Thing for short hairy people...
hS
PS: The general problem is, the Quest has a certain momentum that makes it harder to change the plot without simply writing 'Sauron wins' as time goes on. From Rivendell, there are many paths they can take - the High Pass, the Redhorn Gate, Moria, the Gap of Rohan, even way down south along the coast. Once they pass Moria, they can skip Lorien if they want, and see what that does. From the Breaking, you can send them all on together, or change the breakdown. But after that point? M&P become pointless (and unless you send an orc with them, they pretty much have no choice but to meet Treebeard and take their last action). F&S can't really change much without dying. And the Three Hunters are railroaded into the rest of the plot by various people telling them where to go. Maybe you could send someone to Dunland to recruit another army - but you don't need one.
That said... hmm. What about a Goldberry-esque nature spirit who can zip across Rohan and smuggle M&P out of the orcs' grasp - and thus leave Treebeard in Fangorn, and Saruman at large? I may have to write that one...
hS -
Another question without answers. by
on 2014-01-07 04:31:00 UTC
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Can 'Girl Falls into Middle-Earth' be done well?
The Emperor Protects! -
Now this I would like to see. by
on 2014-01-08 00:15:00 UTC
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I think here, the question would be less about the symbolism of the world like the Tenth Walker story would be and more on what happens and how people in-universe react to the new arrival of a random extradimensional interloper. Badfic versions of the falling-into-the-story tend to just have the OC teleport in after something like getting hit by a car, falling down some stairs, or "just waking up there" happens, and then they're just suddenly given important roles, recognized by famous characters, and often even sent on important quests that only main characters would normally get to do.
They don't react properly, and the person falling in definitely does not react properly. If you passed out after falling down a random flight of stairs, you wouldn't immediately react with "Oh, boy! I'm in the world of my favorite book!", would you? Assuming you even had access to that information and didn't just wake up in the middle of a field surrounded by wargs or in a random village that you didn't recognize in which the population is chasing you around with sticks in assumption that you're some sort of failed Nazgûl experiment that just plummeted from the sky, that is. No, you'd be freaking out, probably. Wondering how you got there, wondering if it's permanent, wondering when you are in the story and whether or not some orcs are about to come raid this random village with you inside it.
Even if you ignore the questions like "What would happen if someone else falls down those stairs?" having the interloper instantly know and get along with people in whatever world they fall into is removing some of the more interesting aspects of the potential story, especially if a person falls into someplace as well-known as Middle-earth. I think it would be funny if the person who falls in, rather than being a Tolkien/Jackson superfan with barely repressed lust for some important story-mover, was just some random person who had only heard about Middle-earth in passing or had read it several years ago but never thought the information would be important again, and knows just enough about how the plot goes to cause trouble when he or she inadvertently brings it up in conversation. And of course, the culture of modern Earth would be enormously different from the Middle-earth culture, so the interloper probably couldn't fit in at all even if they did have the foggiest idea of what to do or what was going on. They would probably be viewed as an oddity at best and an aberration at worst, which means there would need to be a very good reason if the interloper manages to tangle themselves up in canonical affairs like the Fellowship or one of the big important councils that people who fall into other worlds so often seem to be let into for little reason.
But of course, the big questions here would be regarding execution of the plot post-realizing-where-you-are-and-what-is-going-on. After falling from one world into another that doesn't recognize you in your strange clothes and unplaceable accent(I'm going to assume that the transportation process at least allows the language that the interloper speaks and understands to translate into one of Middle-earth's native languages, though, because it wouldn't make for a good story if one of the main characters couldn't understand anybody), it would be easy to make the interloper the ability to make new friends unrealistically simply and have some sort of link to the main plot, but the thing is that the person who falls in is, in the most basic sense, intruding on someone else's plotline. You could make a very good story out of that, though, if the characters, the interloper the Lords of the Rings itself recognize that it is an intrusion. Honestly, I think it would be more interesting if the interloper tries and fails to get into some important canonical events and decides to go along the sidelines, using what elements of the story they remember to interact with some of the supporting cast and fight against darkness in a way entirely distinct from the Fellowship's questing and fighting giant trolls and Balrogs and such. The random human from Earth isn't going to be much use on a long walking quest or an extended sword fight anyway, and if they go off to the sidelines, we could maybe see them in Gondor before Boromir dies and Denethor goes crazy, or in Rohan when it was still controlled by Gríma, and start doing things in ways that start affecting the plot as a whole over time, but in smaller ways that change the course of canonical events rather than huge ones that blow them to pieces, as Sues like to do.
Of course, there's the alternative option that the interloper would, once rejected by the major stations of the canon, try to go over to Sauron's side and give him the information they know about Arda's future in retaliation, but let's not even pretend some orc general isn't just going to torture all of the Lord of the Rings's plot out of the random human he found wandering around in Mordor once the general finds out there's more than a passing chance that said human isn't speaking absolute nonsense.
Oh, and just think of the repercussions for the world as a whole now that some interdimensional traveler has breached Eä. If Sauron or Saruman or some other malevolent Tolkien nasties find out that the interloper is from another universe, how will they react? Maybe they'd want to see if the process can be turned the other way, and this mysterious world unguarded by the Elves, the Valar, and the descendants of Númenor could become an outpost for their dark reachings. Maybe they'd try and send some significant opponent, Gandalf perhaps, to this unknown world permanently, so that they couldn't cause any more trouble for the powers that loom. Or it could even go the other way, and the Elves might wish to see the evils of Mordor banished from their home planet forever, even if it means wherever those nasties go to is going to have to deal with creatures it's not entirely equipped to fight. This would depend on the method of transport, of course, because sometimes it might not be reversible, or there might not be any way of getting anything back to Earth without extreme difficulty and some sort of powerful magic or supreme aligning of events to kickstart the transport. Besides, if it was too easy, the interloper would just abscond the second they see the first party of orcs rushing at them. But the big bads wouldn't know about that. All they'd know is that someone has fallen into their world from another, and if the newcomer won't give them a way between worlds, they might be able to take it through dark magic, forcible experimentation, and all of those other lamentable activities dark lords get up to.
Ooh, sudden random related thought. If Sauron had his semi-corporeal hands on a source of power that could cut through dimensions, I wonder whether he'd try to use that power to resurrect or recall to his side all those beings imprisoned in the Void. Even if him doing so never ends up happening in-story, it would certainly provide additional stakes for the interloper and whoever they decide to associate with if there's a risk of Morgoth and/or members of Ungoliant's species escaping from the Void and fighting directly for the side of darkness. -
From what you've said... by
on 2014-01-08 08:51:00 UTC
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I think this is how the Dagor Dagorath starts.
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Of course. by
on 2014-01-07 05:24:00 UTC
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To repeat what Phobos said, we like to think that anything can be done well provided there's some skill and effort behind it.
Also, there's a Legendary Goodfic that was written precisely to prove this point: "Don't Panic!" by former Boarder boz4pm.
~Neshomeh -
Putting my money where my mouth is. by
on 2014-01-06 09:53:00 UTC
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Or at least, my words where my... other words are.
Tenth Walkers is my new 'fanfic'. In each chapter I will demonstrate a Tenth Walker concept done well. I'll be starting with the ones that come up in this thread (which are mostly the ones I've suggested, so far) and continuing on to anything else that occurs to me.
Read? Enjoy? And dare I say it... review?
hS -
An interesting idea... by
on 2014-01-06 15:00:00 UTC
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Feel free to use mine from the bottom of the thread, if you want.
-Phobos -
Hm... by
on 2014-01-06 14:03:00 UTC
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There's not a whole lot to go off here, I could review more solidly if this was one big fic with context and stuff (I can actually infer some already, so that's a plus!), but nothing strikes me as immediately killable. That's something? :P To be perfectly honest this first chapter feels like a generic Tenth Walker, just not blatantly Suvian.
In spirit of full disclosure, I tend to be wary of Tolkien fic in general, Tenth Walkers or otherwise. This is obviously personal bias and I try to look past it, but not only is this sort of thing really easy to mess up, but few if any authors I've seen tackle it can manage to write in Tolkien's world and not make everything feel/sound wrong. That's not talking about your linked fic, hS, and not targetting any specific individual at all - just a generality.
A thought/question though, since you're demonstrating. How does one account for how a Tenth Walker messes up all the numerology and symbolism and such of the nine Walkers/nine Nazgul thing? Obviously a ficwriter could just slap a tenth Nazgul in somewhere (funny how few seem to), but anything more involved? -
Depends on the story. by
on 2014-01-06 14:43:00 UTC
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In the movieverse, the numerology never comes up. The Fellowship is literally made up of 'everyone who shouted loudly enough when Frodo volunteered'. Elrond seems spectacularly uninterested in who goes - in fact, I think he's probably written them off already. Certainly he's eager enough to get Arwen to safety.
In the bookverse? The obvious method is to have one member join after Rivendell (as Pippin does here). Then, though, the Fellowship would need a very good reason to trust them - or, as in the case of my orc-fic further down, to bring them along regardless. In Rivendell...
Well, you could have Elrond think of something else to link them with in terms of numbers. Have him say they are chosen to match the kings of the Last Alliance - that would be, uh, Elendil, Anárion, Isildur, Gil-Galad, Oropher of Mirkwood, Amdír of Lórien... a dwarf from Moria - let's call him Durin, might as well. That's seven so far. Let's add Círdan of Lindon, Elrond himself... then, if you say (or let it go unsaid) that Amroth of Lórien wasn't there with his father, you can make Thranduil, heir to the throne of Mirkwood (and thus leader of its army after his father died) the tenth. There we go - a nice canonical ten (or eleven, if you leave Amroth in) for Elrond to compare them to. 'As of old ten rulers marched against Sauron, now ten Walkers will seek to complete what we began...'
Coming back to the story: you're right, that scene is pretty generic. It's written to showcase the fact that you can make there be a Fellowship of ten without breaking canon. How well the story worked would depend on what the OC did later.
hS -
Fair enough, I just realised you'd already answered that. by
on 2014-01-06 15:09:00 UTC
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Oops. :P And yeah, fair enough on the generic thing, you established what you meant to establish well enough - I was just commenting on how, as it was thus far, I really didn't have anything I could usefully review. Also, a pox on the movieverse! :P
Hm, what else... how would you handle a tenth Nazgul? Treat Sauron as the tenth as Phobos was saying, something else? And all the members of the Fellowship were relevant in some way - how would you have the OC member contribute usefully to the plot/play an important role without upstaging the canon walkers or making up too much stuff wholecloth? -
But now you made me write more. by
on 2014-01-06 15:22:00 UTC
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Elrond stood staring out of the window, his back to the door. "Ringbearer," the Lord of Imladris said, not turning. "Thank you for coming."
"Lord Elrond," Frodo said from the door, "your counsel is invaluable to me, and you - I mean - you have been a great-"
"I understand, Frodo." Elrond turned, a small smile on his face. "Many years ago, I myself was... overawed, shall we say, by the presence of my elders. When the Last Alliance marched against Sauron, it seemed as if every king in the world rode with us. Isildur of Arnor and Anárion of Gondor were ever at the forefront on the plains, but in the forests of Wilderland Amdír of Lothlórien and Oropher of Greenwood - or later his son, Thranduil - broke the trail. Even the Dwarves joined us, and Durin's folk and Durin's leadership brought us safely through the Misty Mountains. And the grandeur of our army!" Frodo realised that Elrond's mind was far away, walking in the living memory of the elves. "Lindon was emptied - under Círdan, every last vestige of the great realms of old marched to war. And, yes, there was I - I with my small household out of Rivendell, thrust into the service of the High Kings. Gil-Galad and Elendil - names that echo in my thoughts even now."
In Frodo's mind's eye, visions of the armies of old flared in brilliant colour - but painted in broad strokes, like the work of an artist who had never witnessed the muster. "I wish... I wish I could have seen it," he murmured.
Elrond seemed to snap back to the present. "Do you?" he asked sadly. "I wish I had not had to. And more than that... I wish we had completed our task, that this meeting might never have happened." He sighed, and looked out of the window again, towards the west. "But the Powers do not grant wishes, Frodo. In this task, in this Middle-earth, we must find our own path."
Beyond the Elf Lord's shadow, Frodo could see a single star gleaming in the evening sky - Eärendil, the Evening Star. "But not without light to guide us," he said suddenly.
Elrond smiled. "Indeed," he said. "And that is why I have called you here: guidance. You must have companions on your quest, to guide and guard you and Samwise. Gandalf, indeed, has already agreed to lead your company, and for the others..."
The Lord of Imladris looked once again towards the evening star. "Ten lords and kings faced Sauron and could not defeat him," he said. "Perhaps ten walkers, with no armies at their back, can succeed where we failed. And as the Last Alliance brought together all the Free Peoples of Middle-earth, so shall the Fellowship of the Ring consist of representatives of all those whose hopes rest on you. For Men..."
(Don't pox the movieverse - it has its own merits. But it also has far fewer barriers to a Tenth Walker)
The problem with making ten by including Sauron in the Nazgul is that we're talking about the Enemy's servants - not the Enemy himself. Elrond specifically says 'set against' - even though it never happens, it's clear he expected the Fellowship to have to face the Nazgul together again. Five Ringwraiths had already attacked Aragorn and the hobbits at Weathertop - probably where the idea came from.
The easiest way to make ten Nazgul is simply to... make ten Nazgul. There's no real reason for Men to only have nine rings, and 'ten' scans just as well. Alternately, you could make it one of the dwarven rings, which Sauron had given to a man - that could work (and if I was doing it, I'd make the man in question Eärnur, the last King of Gondor; this may go in the story).
As for making the OC contribute to the plot - you have to accept that you're going to be making stuff up. The Nine Walkers drive their own plot - a tenth would have their own effects. A random Rivendell elf would, even without changing anything else, mean there were four, not three, left to consider going after Merry and Pippin - and with two elves, the right choice would be to send them into Rohan at high speed, while Aragorn and Gimli... probably went straight to Gondor.
What you can't do, as I said elsewhere, is write a story which consists of the LotR story happening, 'And Morwen was there also'. That's not a story, that's a rewriting of the script. The only reason to do it is to get the OC's thoughts and reactions on paper - and there's a wide enough variety of people in the story that you should rather use one who's there.
Oh, or to sleep with Legolas, of course. And how about a story where Legolas and your OC get together... and then stay in Lorien, leaving the remaining seven Walkers to head down Anduin without them?
hS -
Sorry, DoS left me feeling poxy. by
on 2014-01-06 15:44:00 UTC
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Maybe we can discuss the merits you were talking about later if you like? It sounds like you've an interesting take I don't want to get too off topic/distract myself too much (and sorry for bugging you with e-mails again, speaking of discussions). The Nazgul thing, in retrospect, was a stupid question, and I suppose I have only my own reluctance to make stuff up wholesale to blame. :P I thought it would be an interesting angle to ponder upon is all, ten Walkers going with ten Nazgul and how that would affect things. I'll review this new fic once I've chewed on it a bit, too.
Also, Ai, far too many people do the "copy paste the script but put my Sue in" thing! It's killing one of my missions...
Is it bad that I almost think that last example of yours could be kinda funny if written as a decent parody? And for someone rather rusty with the books, why Eärnur? -
Eärnur by
on 2014-01-06 16:11:00 UTC
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The darkness
had lasted
a very
long
time.
"Wake."
The voice was less than a voice, and more than a command: a hiss, worming its way into his consciousness.
"Wake!"
His eyes snapped open. Where was it? He looked down at his hand, but it was gone, his finger was bare.
The voice chuckled. "You won't find it there, Your Majesty," it said mockingly. "It has returned to its master."
"No!" he exclaimed. "It's mine - my pre-"
"It is his," the voice snapped, "and you are his. If you ever wish to see it again, you will obey. You must... obey."
And now the second voice came, slithering into his mind, wrapping itself around his basest desires and ordering him upright.
He was standing before he realised what was happening. "No..." he moaned.
A shadow moved before him - but everything was shadowed now. Even the light that surrounded him was pale, washed out, a ghost light, a corpse light. He looked again at his hand, his bare finger where his precious ring had once sat. Even his skin seemed translucent, barely there.
The shadow moved again, and he saw it: the black robe, the dark armour beneath, the burning red eyes - and the crown.
"You!" he shouted, hearing his voice fall flat, feeling the snake in his mind coiling tighter. "You - what have you done to me?"
The Witch-King of Angmar laughed, long and low. "No more has been done to you," he hissed, "than you desired. A ruby ring with band of gold - strength, life beyond the knowledge of man... power."
He shook his head as if straining against bonds. "Gold - you said it would bring gold," he recalled, fighting through the haze of memories to that long-ago torture.
"And it would," the Witch-King agreed, "if it had gold to work on. But you are not one of those stunted mountain-dwellers, with their rock-like resilience. You are a man - and men are so very susceptible."
"I am a king," he said, shaking his head. "A descendant of Numenor."
"So was I, once," the Witch-King smiled. "It means nothing."
"I want to- I want-" He stammered to a halt, one eye twitching. "Where is it?"
"It will be returned to you in due time," the Witch-King told him. "But first - even a king must serve his master."
"I have no-" He cut off, feeling the serpent twining itself into his thoughts. And why shouldn't he obey? Even the dark Power that held him could not penetrate the depths of his mind, he was sure. And he needed his ring back...
"Service," he said, as if testing out the word. "Yes... I will serve."
"Excellent," the Witch-King said. "Then, Eärnur of Gondor, here is your first task: a skulking creature lurks in our valley. Find it - bring it to me - and perhaps our master will allow you to see your ring once more."
Eärnur bowed his head before the Lord of the Nazgûl and pulled his dark cloak around himself. "Yes, my lord," he hissed. "The master's will shall be obeyed."
The reason Eärnur is a good choice for Tenth Nazgul is because he is the one person known to have gone missing in Minas Morgul. He's the reason the Stewards of Gondor rule 'until the King returns' - because they never knew if he was dead. He rode off to face the Witch-King in single combat, and just... never came back.
hS -
I've always wondered... by
on 2014-01-06 13:41:00 UTC
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What if one of the other civilisations of Middle-Earth was present at the Council? Perhaps one of the tribes of Harad was less amenable to the will of Sauron than they let on? Okay, how they'd get to the Council obviously needs work, but I'm fascinated by the cultures of Harad and Rhun.
Especially since they were never characterised beyond wall-to-wall evil in the books...
--parp -
My sediments exactly. (nm) by
on 2014-01-07 01:01:00 UTC
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Your matter that settles to the bottom of liquid? (nm) by
on 2014-01-07 03:06:00 UTC
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Ach, no. My opinions would be a better choice of words. (nm) by
on 2014-01-07 03:31:00 UTC
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No complaints whatsoever. (nm) by
on 2014-01-06 11:23:00 UTC
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Not bad. by
on 2014-01-06 10:18:00 UTC
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But can the idea hold up the entire quest?
Probably.
The Emperor Protects! -
I don't think so. My two cents. by
on 2014-01-06 08:09:00 UTC
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Merry and Pippin are already extra enough. Though they end up pushing the plot in other ways, it is not made obvious during the Council. They are more like 'fodder' to the Fellowship, only to fill the same number of people as the Ring-Wraiths.
But Tenth Walker would be possible if they have their own purpose after the Breaking of the Fellowship, such as dealing with a village raided by Orcs, or raiding Orc patrols, a la Turin Turambar, or even a chance meeting with Radagast, making sure he sends messages to the rest of the Fellowship or to ask Eagles for help. -
That's not fair to Gandalf. by
on 2014-01-06 09:15:00 UTC
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This actually comes up a few times in the books. It's Gandalf who persuades Elrond to let M&P join the Fellowship (he was going to send members of his household), and later - after Gandalf is dead - someone (Aragorn?) comments that they should never have brought them - it was Gandalf's idea, and he was the first to die.
But Gandalf wasn't wrong. He said that M&P would have a part to play - and they did. He also seems to have been thinking about the fact that they were essentially innocent - and it was that childlike innocence which got both hobbits into positions in the militaries of Rohan and Gondor.
The thing is (one of the many thing), in the books, the Fellowship is pretty much an ad-hoc group. Elrond explicitly tells them they don't have to go any further than they want (except Frodo), and in fact, Aragorn and Boromir planned to split off and go to Gondor. That went out of the window when Gandalf died, but it was the plan.
So have an elf who wants to go home to Lorien, and doesn't care for any of the Fellowship - but grows close to them during the journey, and stays with them. Or, well, there's loads of options.
In the movie, it's even easier. The idea of matching the number of Nazgul never even comes up - Elrond just takes anyone who volunteers.
Of course, that's (all) just about getting them on the team. I think you're right that an extra member means the Fellowship should split differently. Maybe s/he manages to save Boromir, allowing Aragorn and Boromir to go to Minas Tirith while Legolas, Gimli, and the OC to go after the hobbits. Maybe the hobbits never get captured - or maybe Merry gets killed by that injury to his forehead, due to the OC changing the state of the battle.
Or maybe the OC stays on the shoreline, helps Frodo to leave quicker, and they go off without Sam - or Frodo leaves alone. Or... yeah, loads of options.
But no, making a story which consists of 'And Magielf was there also' every three sentences isn't good writing. ;)
hS -
My take on the tenth Walker. by
on 2014-01-06 11:20:00 UTC
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Galthrid is grunting, trying to control his anger at the weird company of Men, Halflings, a Dwarf, and even an Elf in his hut. "I told you, Gandalf, I don't want any more part in your adventures! Why would I be the one joining you and your idiot to face the Eye? And you know what they make of traitors!"
Gandalf smiles at the orc's complaint. "Now, Master Galthrid, if we manage to get rid of the Eye, your kin can live freely, unfettered by masters who wants you dead for their own selfish ambitions."
"Live freely? We have freedom enough! No one from the west came into this neck of Imladris. Forest people trade with us, and they have no problem with us. We can have our little village, unmolested by the Elves thanks to you, I must say. But if I leave this place? Hah! Everyone wants us dead! Take your pick, that pansy elf over there, the dwarf over there, those men picking at my cheese, and even those children are plotting to cut my neck come nighttime!"
Aragorn and Boromir puts down the cheeseknife they are holding and pushes away their plates of bread. Gimli and Legolas looks at each other, and Frodo, Sam, Merry, and Pippin muttered under their breath, "We aren't children anymore.".
"Master Galthrid, you would be an indispensible guide through the Black Gates and into Mordor. We assure you that none of us are wishing you dead."
At which point Legolas suddenly stands, "I give you my word, Orc, unless you betray us first, we will not kill you."
Galthrid chuckles, then roars into laughter. "Why would I trust an Elven word? We killed many of your kin, and you killed many of us."
"Have you heard of Feanor and his children?"
At the words of the name Feanor, Galthrid's face turns grey. Which is a awesome feat considering how black his face is.
"I will swear an oath, binding my doom to yours, yours to mine, I swear by my..."
"STOP!", shouted Galthrid, "No need for an oath! My ancestors have suffered enough under Feanor's children and their foolish oath. If you want to die pursuing an oath, leave my people out of it."
Galthrid then turned to Gandalf, "Fine then, Gandalf, I shall join your petty company. But any sign of trouble and I'll have you skewered for breakfast. I ask for the loot from any battles you participate in, safety from any harm, and sixty gold coins upfront for my... soon-to-be widow."
Gandalf opens his pouch, counts sixty gold coins, then puts it on the table. Galthrid collects it and puts it into a pouch.
"You must stay for the night, I need to sharpen my cleaver. DARLING! DARLING!"
His wife, Fashrit, enters the living room. "Yes, husband?"
"Prepare dinner for our guests as well. For the Elf, make him some cabbage soup. And keep this pouch where it is safe."
---
Dawn breaks, as orcs in the village return home from their farms, working hard through the night. Galthrid touches his nose to his wife at the door. His three children places their forehead on Galthrid's back of his hand. Galthrid pats the head of the youngest child.
"Study well, Ushnarh. One day, you be scholar at Khand. Meet my cousin there and make our family proud. And you two, Nushnarh and Tholnarh, get yourselves a wife. I'm still young, but I want grandchildren."
"Dad, we still haven't finished opening our land yet.", whined Tholnarh.
Galthrid simply smiles. The Fellowship leaves Galthrid's village as his wife is softly sobbing, and his three children waving him goodbye. Galthrid holds back a tear, as he pulls his cloak to cover his head.
[An orc as a Tenth Walker is going to be rife with complications I suppose. I'm sure a group of orcs at least neutral to battle against Sauron is already stretching the suspension of disbelief, not to mention hiding in Imladris. If I am to lengthen this tale, he won't survive the journey since the Ring is going to compel him sooner or later. Or Legolas automatically shoots him in a battle. Or a host of other possibilities.] -
My version of the same. by
on 2014-01-06 14:31:00 UTC
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Note: My version will be going in the story linked above, with a comment that the idea was suggested by you.
Caradhras had defeated the Fellowship of the Ring. As they staggered down into the foothills, Sam couldn't keep from casting a glare back at the mountain. All that work, and for what? They were right back where they started.
Ahead, Legolas' head suddenly snapped round. "Mithrandir!" he called - the Elvish version of Gandalf's name. "I hear something!"
Gandalf brought the Fellowship to a halt. Without waiting to be asked, Legolas darted off ahead, into the trees, and after a few moments Sam heard him exclaim something in his native tongue.
Gandalf's brow furrowed, and he beckoned the others forward. "There is no danger," he told them. "But there is need for haste. Come." The Fellowship hurried after him - Aragorn and Boromir first, then the hobbits, and finally Gimli bringing up the rear.
Legolas had stopped in the shade of an ancient oak tree. He stood bolt upright, staring down at a dark bundle on the ground. Gandalf hastened to his side, while the others halted a short distance back.
Pippin drew in a sharp breath as he saw the bundle. "Is that-?"
"It is an orc," Gandalf told him, "one of the smaller breed which infests the Misty Mountains."
"Is it... dead?" the young hobbit asked.
Gandalf knelt down at the orc's side. "Not quite," he said after a quick investigation, handing Legolas a black dagger (Sam noted that Legolas seemed to be doing his best to hold the knife without actually touching it). "It has a wounded arm - and there is the Sun to consider. Orcs hate and fear her light."
Boromir's face twisted in disgust. "Kill it now," he said, "before it recovers." Behind him, Gimli nodded agreement, hefting his axe, and even Merry drew his blade.
"No!" Legolas exclaimed, stepping between the Company and the orc. "When I arrived it was calling out - asking for help in its dark tongue. It fell silent when it saw me, but... my people will never kill an orc which has surrendered. I will not start today."
"Then stand aside, elf," growled Gimli. "You need not sully your arrows with its blood - my axe is thirsty."
Sam heard motion beside him, and to his surprise Frodo walked forward. Sam hurried after as his master brushed past Legolas and knelt at Gandalf's side. "Does it speak the Common Tongue?" Frodo asked.
"Doubtful," Gandalf told him, "or else it would already have spoken. But I believe it understands our talk, even if it cannot reply."
Frodo looked uncertain. "If we leave it here," he said, "it may tell other spies of Sauron that we have passed. The Enemy could guess our errand."
Gandalf nodded. "You see the dilemma," he said. "We must either kill it - which Legolas will not permit, and I would not approve of - or..."
"Or take it with us," Frodo murmured. "But that..."
"Precisely." Gandalf stood back up, then poked the orc with the tip of his staff. "Well? What do you have to say for yourself, creature? I know you are listening."
"Skai, sharkû!" the orc spat, and continued to snarl in its horrible-sounding language for some time. Sam heard Boromir muttering in the background, and even Aragorn shifted uncertainly. Finally, the orc stopped, and Gandalf shook his head in wonderment.
"You were correct, Legolas," he said, not looking away from the orc. "Snaga here - that is the only name she knows, it means 'slave' in their tongue - was indeed asking for your help."
"She?" Sam exclaimed, then slapped a hand over his mouth. Gandalf looked at him, a twinkle in his eye.
"She. As an orcish slave, that difference matters little. She understands some of our speech - enough to know that her life is in danger, though as she says, she knew that anyway - and wishes to bargain for her life. She offers information."
"As if we would trust anything it tells us!" Boromir said.
Legolas nodded. "Mithrandir, I would not kill it - but nor would I believe it."
"We will have a chance to discover the truth or falsehood of her words very soon, I fear," Gandalf said, looking weary. "She tells me the Wargs have come west of the mountains."
Yes, that's a real thing: elves won't kill an orc who surrenders. Of course, since orcs are raised with the belief that elves will torture, kill, and eat them, that doesn't happen, like, ever.
And if I were continuing this, Snaga would also know that there is something in Moria - 'Ghâshgûl', the Fire-Wraith...
hS -
My own (likely atrocious) attempt... by
on 2014-01-07 18:21:00 UTC
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Frodo felt... empty. That was the only way he could describe it; a great, yawning pit had opened up inside him and swallowed something vital but hitherto unseen, and its loss was telling on him. The Ring felt the heaviest it had ever felt, as if it wished to drag him down towards whatever grave awaited Gandalf-
He dared not take that thought any further down the road than it had already gone.
The sun had risen, weak and pale for the season, and a grim pall had descended over what remained of the Fellowship. Gandalf had been slain not three days before, and they had been powerless as children to stop his death. Even the normally irrepressible cheer of Merry and Pippin had been blunted; Gimli looked positively murderous. Moria had been his cousin's house, and now its usurpers had claimed his companion. His axe felt heavy in his hands, and would need orc blood to lighten it once more.
Legolas was far in front, keen elf eyes scanning for movement that might signal the fell denizens of Moria. Never mind that they had probably given up by now, retreating back to their stolen halls rather than face daylight; he would keep watch. He would protect them - wait.
Movement. Shape in the distance. Two shapes, joined. Rider? No. Nazgul? Still no. The horse is odd, diseased, misshapen. No warg, either; the legs are long and the gait is stilted. The rider is too tall for an orc and bears no banner of Lorien, and his face is masked. That is not elven armour, either, nor of the Rohirrim or Gondorians... there is a long lance at his side, and a fine one, but - is that arrowhead stone? Yes - which means -
The arrow had left his quiver before the cry of "Southron!" had left his mouth. Legolas gave a hiss of disappointment shortly afterwards; the horse-thing's jerky gait had lifted its rider higher than he had anticipated, and he had hit the Haradrim's shoulder rather than his neck. Feeling slightly embarrassed, he nocked a second arrow and then paused...
---
The Haradrim grimaced with every jolt his camel made as it lurched across the rocky flatlands. His hands were up, though his right hand was rather higher than the left, on account of his left shoulder having a Mirkwood arrow sticking out of it.
"Please," he called, his Westron mangled by a nearly-impenetrable accent. "I mean no harm! I bring a message for the Grey Wizard!" Wincing a little, he dismounted, unbuckling his thin, bent sword and attaching it to a saddlebag. "Please, master Elf! Do not waste your arrows on a friend!" He raised his hands again, as best he could.
Legolas continued to stare him down as the Fellowship ran to his side. Boromir looked at him, then at the Haradrim, then back. "Why do you not shoot? His kind are as much servants of the Enemy as any orc."
"He says he is a messenger," Legolas said from the corner of his mouth, "and he bears no arms. I will not kill an unarmed Man, Southron or no."
"If one such as him comes before a son of Gondor with no weapons, then he is nothing but a fool!" Boromir began to move, but ran into Aragorn's outstretched arm.
"Peace, Boromir. Let him speak."
The Southron turned. "I must give my message only to the Grey Wizard. Where is he?"
"He lies in Moria," Boromir growled, "slain by a demon not quite so foul as you. Leave your message and begone."
"I... no. That is not possible. Morinhetar said I must-"
"The opinions of whichever petty Black Numenorean princeling sent you on this fool's errand concern me not! Deliver your message and leave this place!" At this, Legolas' eyes widened, and he got down from his rock and moved to whisper in Aragorn's ear, bow still drawn tight.
"Boromir," murmured Aragorn after a frantic conversation in Legolas' native tongue, "Morinehtar is a Wizard's name among the elves, so says Legolas. It would be well if we did not sully his name."
The son of Gondor said nothing for a few moments, then stepped back. He kept his sword out, though, and his eyes remained fixed on the Southron before him. "It would be better had the elf not missed his mark, Aragorn. His kind are never to be trusted! What manner of messenger does not speak his name, tell me that?"
"One who must stay secret, Boromir-haban-Denethor. My name is Amro-dan-Marwan, and my message is this: not all men of Harad serve the Lidless Eye. My brothers and I all were sent to tell the Grey Wizard, Mithrandir, that we exiles have no love for Mordor and its king. We came through the other Wizard's lands, hoping he might help us to find Mithrandir, but his wisdom," Amro spat the word, "led us all to a trap, and of seven, only one remains. Six brothers, prince of Northrons, slain by the orcs of a treacherous Wizard. That is the cost of my message. They died with their task left undone, and now you said it will never be done at all, for he is..." He trailed off and turned away, his shoulders sagging. "Waste. Wasted men. Wasted sons."
Legolas slowly lowered his bow and returned the arrow to his quiver. "How did you plan to find him?"
Amro turned. "After the White Wizard's treachery? In truth, I did not know. I made for Lothlorien in the hope that the Lady of the Wood might help me."
Aragorn had been listening throughout, and his eyes looked kindly on the Southron. "We make for there too, and for the same goal. You may journey with us, if you like. These hills are thick with orcs at nightfall."
Boromir goggled. "Have you gone mad? He will poison us in our sleep! Or can a Ranger fashion shackles from mud and sticks?"
Amro simply nodded. "I thank you, Aragorn of Men, and I would be glad to journey with you. My supplies are all but gone; Arabash has not eaten for three days, and nor have I for twice that. It is my hope that we may part on better terms than we met," he said, with a brief glance at Legolas.
It was at this point that the Hobbits and Gimli finally arrived, the dwarf wheezing from somewhere beneath plate mail and beard hair. "Where is he? Where is he? I'll have him in half before you can-"
"He is the servant of a Wizard, master dwarf," said Legolas. "You may lower your axe. He bore a message and could not deliver it, and his brothers died in the attempt. He is no threat."
"He's a Southron," muttered Boromir darkly, "they are always a threat, to decency if nothing else."
"Is he going to kill us?" Merry asked.
"I am not, master... half-ling?" said Amro. "I swear it upon my life. Were I to wish ill upon your party, I would have died at your companion's first arrow, so the wise men of my people say."
"That's a Camel," said Sam, slightly in awe. "I've seen pictures of them in my old Gaffer's books. They're a lot bigger than they look drawn out, aren't they?"
"They are, young master. They are."
---
PLZ R N R NO FLAMMING LOL IT JUST MEANS I CAN TOAST MARSHMALOWS!!!11!1!
...
and so on. -
That's actually pretty good. by
on 2014-01-08 09:29:00 UTC
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No, scratch that - very good. I liked Legolas' misshapen horse idea. ;)
Two things I would raise, were you to continue this: firstly, in his list of names for himself, Gandalf lists 'Incánus' as his name 'in the South'. Tolkien wavered over what this meant - it was either a name he used in Gondor, or derived from Haradrim 'Inkā-nūsh'/'Inkā-nūs', North-spy. I think, for the purposes of fic-writing, you could call him the Grey Wizard Inkā-nūsh.
Secondly, while I like the account of Saruman's betrayal, Amro's naming of Lorien jars a bit. How has he heard of it? He wasn't directed there by Morinehtar, or by Saruman. I would suggest having him name it as 'Dwimordene', and saying (or leaving unsaid) that he picked up the name from the Rohirrim - who say that a witch lives there. The connection 'magic user might help me find other magic user' could occur to him all by himself.
hS -
Additionally, you can use Amro in your TW fic thing. (nm) (nm) by
on 2014-01-08 12:05:00 UTC
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Thank you for the pointers. =] by
on 2014-01-08 11:55:00 UTC
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I used Mithrandir because Amro's in league with Morinehtar and would therefore probably be more familiar with that name for him, and totally not because I forgot that Inkanus was a thing. Totally. Uh-huh. *sweatdrop*
Your point about Lorien is also useful. My knowledge of Middle-Earth's geography is sorely lacking, and every little helps. =]
--parp -
Ooh, I like this. by
on 2014-01-07 18:52:00 UTC
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PLZ RITE MOAR LOL!
But seriously, I'd read more of this. I think your style is spot-on, and the concept is great. Exploring what one of the Blue Wizards is up to? Non-evil factions of the Haradrim? A mysterious messenger with a mysterious message?Camels in Lothlorien?Yes, please!
Here's a question, though: does it count as a Tenth Walker fic if the extra person doesn't show up until after Gandalf falls, thus technically keeping the Fellowship at nine members until it breaks, never to be fully assembled again?
~Neshomeh -
Well, that there's the $64000 question. by
on 2014-01-08 08:48:00 UTC
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I'd say yes. It's an OC coming into the Fellowship who would never have been at the Council of Elrond in any sane world, that's practically the definition of a Tenth Walker fic. On the other hand, that's generally the definition we use for bad Tenth Walker fics, so... Iunno. Anyone got a coin we can flip?
Also, Nesh, you're more than welcome to use Amro's scene in your Tenth Walker fic collection. =]
--parp. -
A child orc? Even more trouble. by
on 2014-01-06 19:58:00 UTC
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But it opens a new insight into Orcs. Do they care enough of their kindred's children not to harm them in battles? Are they fair game as well? And what will Sauron do to them?
Also, I'm a bit frustrated for Tolkien not expanding Black Speech. Luckily, we know that each tribe of Orcs have their own tongue, so we could make up one for one tribe. And another for another tribe. And so on...? -
Nice. by
on 2014-01-06 15:54:00 UTC
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I at least would be interested in the continuing adventures of Snaga the orc Walker, dunno if I speak for anyone else but I'm tickled by how much that shakes things up. :P
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Depends on the 'verse. by
on 2014-01-06 07:46:00 UTC
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In the Movieverse, I'd say yes: the Fellowship is formed in that version of 'anyone who was there and volunteered'. At that point, your question becomes 'is it possible to write a good OC?' - which we certainly hope is true!
In the Bookverse, I'd say no, because that Fellowship was specifically formed by Elrond to have a certain number. In that case, I think it would be more interesting to write a Ninth Walker story - one where Elrond sends your character instead of Legolas (representing the Elves), or instead of Boromir (perhaps he brings a Rider of Rohan as a companion, and they decide Boromir will head straight home while the Rider goes with the Fellowship), or even instead of Pippin, who Elrond wanted to send home anyway. And that's your Tenth Walker plot-hook - the Fellowship of Nine sets out, and three days later, Pippin manages to catch them up, making ten again...
And, again, you're just left with 'Can you slot an OC into canon events well?', which is basically the same question as 'Can you write good fanfic?'.
hS -
That actually ties into two plotbunnies I have. by
on 2014-01-08 16:31:00 UTC
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I don't think I'll be writing them (except possibly as drabbles) any time soon, but...One of them has Faramir going to Rivendell instead of Boromir, and subsequently joining the Fellowship. The other one is pretty much what you described as the Ninth Walker scenario, although I haven't gotten very far on that one (mind you, the Rider of Rohan idea is pretty interesting...)
(Also, Pippin catching up strikes me as adorable for some reason.)
You know, movieverse nearly did have the 'Nine Walkers to set against the Nine Riders' line; it can be seen in some of the behind the scenes footage. It just...seems to have been cut at some point (well, okay, it was obviously cut at some point. I just don't know when or why...)
~DF -
Opinion granted by
on 2014-01-06 05:55:00 UTC
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I would venture to say that anything can be done well, if there is some skill behind it. Tenth walker is no different. I don't even think it would be difficult to do it well for this particular thing.
-Phobos -
Why's that? (nm) by
on 2014-01-06 06:36:00 UTC
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Which bit? I will gladly explain. (nm) by
on 2014-01-06 13:27:00 UTC
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Why you think it's easy to do well, sorry. (nm) by
on 2014-01-06 13:30:00 UTC
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Well... by
on 2014-01-06 14:41:00 UTC
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It seems to me that the reason the Tenth Walker usually doesn't work very well (other than hijacking the whole Fellowship in favor of an OC) is that the "Nine Walkers shall be set against the Nine Riders" thing is never addressed in a way that makes any kind of sense. Last night, Neshomeh and I talked about two ways that it could be addressed.
1) "If they send nine against us, we will send ten. If they send eleven, we will send twelve." I will admit that this is not the most elegant solution, but it is one that could work, given more time to deal with Elrond's reasoning and wording. This is the weaker of the two options, and would require the most work to get right.
2) "Arrayed against us are Sauron and his Nine Riders. We will answer with Gandalf/Aragorn and Nine Walkers." Not perfect, but setting Gandalf or Aragorn apart as the leader and answer to Sauron, and the others being answers to the Nine Riders, could be done. I think a case could be made for either of those two, really, but Gandalf is the more likely choice. The way this would fail is if the Tenth Walker was supposed to be the counterpoint to Sauron.
So, that's what I came up with. I think this situation is easier to work with than others, which is probably why it is used so often in badfic. They don't feel they need to work very hard to get their OC in the Fellowship.
-Phobos -
A small problem with number 2. by
on 2014-01-06 20:03:00 UTC
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I remembered that Gandal are not to contend dirently with Sauron in battle. Somehow the breaking of this rule is a spoiler in Desolation of Smaug.
I think Gandalf will not have himself being the leader of the Fellowship and counterpoint to Sauron. Not to mention Frodo, the Ringbearer, is the spearhead of the mission. He is the only one who had to enter Sammath Naur and chuck the ring into the fire. If anything, Frodo will, figuratively at least, lead. -
I don't see a problem by
on 2014-01-06 21:41:00 UTC
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I never said he had to contend directly with Sauron, just like none of the others had to contend directly with any Black Rider (except for Merry, of course). What I said was Gandalf is, more than any of the others, playing on the same level as Sauron. They both set their plans into motion and let their allies carry them out: Gandalf by trusting that his allies will do what needs to be done, Sauron by forcing his servants to do what he needs them to.
You are probably correct that Gandalf would not pick himself as the leader, that's not however there are at least two ways that that could play out.
1) Elrond, being more or less aware of Gandalf's true nature, is the one making the comparison. Gandalf would likely protest, of course, but that is beside the point.
2) Gandalf makes the comparison with Aragorn as the King-in-Exile being the counterpoint to Sauron's Tyrant-in-Power.
Either way would work, in my opinion.
-Phobos -
Ah, I see now. (nm) by
on 2014-01-06 22:59:00 UTC
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