The PPC Posting Board - Latest posts

Have a Ned Flanders themed metal band called Okilly Dokilly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejzde32zdVw

Someone with appropriate permissions could take away the permissions to post in a channel from @everyone. This is how #upstairs works at the moment (only people with the role "Moderator" can post in it).

It's also possible to take away @everyone's read access, thus additionally hiding the channel from view.

The channel contents could have been copied before deletion. It appears this wasn't done.

I agree that, in the future, if something like the #heavy_stuff deletion needs to happen again, logs should be kept. I propose that we avoid actually deleting channels in the future.

- Tomash

Why not just keep all political discussion at the door? Seriously, we riff on bad fan fiction. Collectively intelligent political discourse is out of our league.

Is there a way to “freeze” a channel, so that nobody can post on it, but the history is still available? Or to copy the log to an archive before the channel is deleted?

HG

It's not like we don't talk about writing on the Discord. We've definitely had "could I get some advice on X in the thing I'm writing" discussions at times (we don't have too much of on the Board either), along with stuff like RP and "hey here's a badfic".

I'll add a vote for a "here's some info about how our server works (and a link to the Board/Constitution)" channel for newbies to land in. That info's currently sitting on the wiki, which isn't too discoverable.

I'm still considering whether some Discord channels need splitting (other than the addition of #writing). (#recsandplugs does double duty as the actual "recs and plugs" channel and the overflow badfic talk channel, for example). There seems to be a general principle, that, up to a point, having a channel about X in a server encourages people to talk about X. (I suspect this was a good chunk of the problem with #heavy_stuff, which I'll try and elaborate on elsewhere.)

Now, do we want to keep uneditable logs just in case this sort of incident comes up (where an entire channel got deleted)... I'm not sure. I'm not quite convinced that "people editing their way out of trouble" or "evidence getting deleted" (and the like) are common enough occurrences to make that sort of thing worth it.

- Tomash

With a third "landing zone" category for newbies to the Discord which explains everything to them instead of dropping them straight into the generic channel. I can understand why you don't want two servers, but despite saying the writing and community aspects are rather intertwined, that only seems to me to be true on the Board.

With regards to logs, I say that those bots would be useful for things like this, where having the logs is actually really important and I'd say it's important enough to overrule privacy at this point. For the things that people want deletable like personal photo's I'd say the PM's would be a better place for them. The bots wouldn't have any say there.

Novastorme.

I'm opposed to having two servers. The writing and community aspects of the PPC are rather intertwined, and I'd prefer to keep them together.

However, adding a #writing or similar would be a good idea, just to make it clear there's a place to discuss that sort of thing. I don't think we're in danger of having too many channels at the moment (too many channels can lead to channel-selection paralysis).

In addition, Discord recently added a "categories" system that lets you group channels. If we wanted to implement something like your split, we could possibly use the much lighter weight solution of grouping our channels some.

If anyone has any other suggestions for how to reorganize the chat, I'd invite them to post them here.

As to logs, Discord generally keeps a permanent record of anything that isn't deleted. However, unfortunately, the #heavy_stuff channel got deleted, which got rid of all the messages there. If we wanted editing and deletion-proof logs, there are bots for that (but there's also reasons that people might want things to be deletable - accidental/temporary posts of photos of themselves, for example).

- Tomash

Like sure, going after old shames. But creating badfics specifically for your missions? That feels just so wrong to me.

When you point at the constitution here, it's not written in the context of creating badfic for missions. That's been done in the past, several times. When it says to write goodfic, it means... you know, fanfic-fanfic.

I'm otherwise staying out of this conversation because I don't want to get embroiled in more drama.

My favorite genres are rock and metal, maybe with some occasional electronic dance mixed in. I don't tend to listen to EDM, though, because I think a big part of why I like it is the thumping bass (headphones don't quite cut it).

Bands: Linkin Park, Queen, Imagine Dragons, Metallica, Tool, Papa Roach, Fall Out Boy, Five Finger Death Punch, Shinedown.

Also known as "what comes up on Pandora because I don't know enough about music to find new artists".

Was it actually clear to him? Did he get an explicit "No, I will not explain. Stop asking." or a "I am very uncomfortable talking about this, please stop pestering me." or even a "I don't think they're comfortable talking about it, so drop it"? I don't know about what happened in the HS channel, but the clear, explicit request to stop didn't seem to be present in the final ban. Or maybe I missed it.

I do not intend to mean that a person deserves it for not being clear about their refusal nor to mean that they are obligated to do so, but it would give Grimalkinii a clear message and if he kept pestering them, then Grimalkinii's ban would be less questionable (saying this because some people have objected to the ban at first).

With regards to the current purpose of the PPC Discord Chat, Grimalkinii is right, it is *not* a place for anyone to come in and talk about original fiction to say it is is a massive mistake. What it is is a place for real time conversations about various things, both serious and inane, although the serious ones tend to end... badly. For a newbie coming in who just wants to talk writing, especially writing that doesn't involve the PPC Universe it is simply not suitable and as Grimalkinii says and I (for the most part) agree " I feel that the bottom line here is that the discord chat is barely even a writing community anymore and more of a political one focused on socialist ideology." But then, should it be? While the PPC Community as a whole promotes good writing, nowhere that I can see does it say that the Discord is a place to go for talking about writing. Should it be? Would a Writing Stuff channel be a good idea for those who want that sort of thing? Maybe. I don't know, it's just a suggestion that I think should at least be discussed. And it would put the writing back in writing community for the chat.

As to the rest of the post and the rest on the conversation at the moment, from the logs that are currently available I can see where people are coming from with regards to saying that Grimalkinii broke the Constitution, specifically Section One, Rule 4. But you never see any warning about strikes, you never see anyone telling Grimalkinii to check the Constitution as to why what they were doing could be seen as wrong. At the same time, I think that you could just as easily get Maslab under Section One, Rule One for not respecting Grimalkinii and kicking him 'because of his (Maslab's) blood pressure' and not respecting Grimalkinii and their views. In my opinion I would then question what should be done with Maslab's status as a mod. I think it also highlights the fact that the Constitution is, to me, not followed anywhere near as much as it should be on the Discord chat.

When it comes down to 'write your own badfic' for all of those pointing at the Constitution in this conversation while saying it's OK to write your own badfics, I'd suggest you read Section 7, more specifically Rule 25. But then again, that's just me.

Overall this complaint has made me realise several things. 1) I know I lurk in the Discord a lot of the time, but I should speak up more, especially when things are not right. 2) The Discord is flawed. Simple. Should it be removed? No. Should it still be called the PPC Discord chat? eh, I'm out on that one. My current idea is that we should split it into two, one for writing things, including RP like Rudi's and one for the chatting/community, that'd solve a lot of the problems I think. Name one the PPC Discord and the other The Chat Lounge (or something like that). 3) If Grimalkinii deserved to be kicked and banned from the Discord there are others who should also be kicked for breaking the Constitution (and I'm not just talking about Maslab, there are others too) 4) We need more permanent logs for Discord, even if it's just screenshots of posts before they're deleted/asked to be edited, we need to see them. 5) Maybe Des was right after all.

Novastorme.

On real-world heavy topics, I've like to point out we managed to have a rather civil conversation about gun control back in early March of 2017, so I'm certainly not calling for a "no politics"/"no heavy stuff" rule at this time. The discussion in #heavy_stuff was, from what I remember of it, rather inflamed by Pentagon's (and maybe some other people ... I won't try and name nams without the logs, since I eventually just left that whole debate) approach to it.

There not being a Board post about this ... yeah, come to think of it, why didn't that happen? I'd propose, as blanket policy, "chat kicks/bans are to be announced on the Board".

For extra context, the official announcements of the kicks (and then bans) in #upstairs were:

Maslab 🦊 - 03/05/2018
Pentagon has been kicked from the server: Multiple counts of purposefully stating incendiary statements designed to elicit an emotional response. A permanent ban is being discussed between the moderators.

Maslab 🦊 - 03/05/2018
Grimalkinii has been kicked for same.

PoorCynic - 03/05/2018 [later that day]
A permanent ban has been put into place for users Pentagon and Grimalkinii.

Now, to (mainly) my memory, there appeared to be an association between Pentagon and Grimalkinii. Among other things:
1) They showed up very close to each other (to the point that I wrote a "please introduce yourself on the Board" message aimed at both)
2) They both tended to use terminology like (rot13'd) "phpxrq", which is associated with the far-right, /pol/, and other groups of people that tend to violate Article 2
3) There was a general sense that Grimalkinii was backing up or joining on on Pentagon's almost-certainly-trolling, especially since they both had a few cases of "I insist you talk/keep talking to me" Article 4-violating behavior (and tended to agree with each other's points).
[there might be other factors applicable here, but that's what I can think of at the moment]

Now, it's possible that this was all a really unfortunate coincidence and we banned a newbie because they shared an arrival time and political views with someone who very clearly needed banning. However, I would say there was enough evidence of a Pentagon/Grimalkinii association that we can't claim the mods were acting unreasonably or terribly out of line based on the information they had.

- Tomash

P.S.: Assuming Mikel is right about what incident "We then switched the topic and asked another member about something they had said; we were outright told to change the subject by the same admin or be banned right then and there." refers to, I confirm that the moderators' response of "Drop the topic. Now." was entirely appropriate.

One, the Heavy_Stuff channel was removed for a very simple reason: in the week or so it was up, it had caused at least three major arguments and large amounts of drama. It was removed because the place for people to vent about the bad things happening had become a bad place for anyone not looking for an argument.

Two, the topic change mentioned was a very serious affair regarding a member. For the sake of privacy, I won’t give details, but I will say that they were shut down again because they were demanding an explanation from someone who was very clearly uncomfortable and did not want to give it. It was not as if they were shut down because it was them.

As for the final banning, it was the same sort of situation, with Delta clearly unhappy with what was being asked, and the demands for answers not stopping. Given the actions in HS shortly before that, it was clear to me at least that they were banned because they were repeatedly violating Section 1, Part 4 of the constitution.

So I was bore, and decided to see what kind of music everyone is into. Like me, for starters:

Genres:
Rock, Alternative, Metal, Jpop/rock, Jazz/Swing/Big Band, Electronic/Dance, Celtic, R&B/Soul and instrumental.

Bands/Singers:
Linkin Park, Aurelio Voltaire, Gorillaz, Queen, The Beatles, Imagine Dragons, "Weird Al" Yankovic, Daft Punk, Green Day, My Chemical Romance, Miracle of Sound, The Protomen, Adam Warrick, and the Dave Matthews Band

Yes I have a weird taste in music...

1. It sucks that a ton of the record is missing. I support not allowing discussion of heavy Real-World topics in real time if it can't be done without descending into nastiness, which it seems was indeed the case, but the idea of there being a permanent record of what goes on in the Discord, and of the Board being informed of anything major like an allegedly offensive individual being banned, was a pretty big deal in previous discussions. I'm not terribly happy about that being forgotten.
   
   1.2 If heavy Real-World topics aren't up for discussion, that may impose some limits on how much you can educate people about sensitive issues that tend to get people riled up. Cute animal pictures only would mean cute animal pictures only. The Discord members should consider the implications of this before making any final decision on what they can and can't tolerate.
   
   2. In what there is left to go on, I don't see evidence of Grimalkinii acting in bad faith. Being in favor of gun ownership to some unknown extent does not automatically make someone a bad person. Asking questions and getting frustrated with the responses does not make someone a troll.
   
   3. I don't see evidence of Delta Juliette acting in bad faith, either. We have established previously that one is allowed to say no to a conversation, and no one is obligated to give their time or attention to anyone else.
   
   4. I have a problem with Maslab kicking Grimalkinii for the sake of "[Maslab's] blood pressure," without explaining to Grimalkinii why he was doing it or giving a warning first. I thought there was a three strikes policy of some sort; if there were previous warnings, there is no record of them. It looks to me like a serious abuse of power. That may be something we need to address further.
   
   5. I don't disagree with the banning of Pentagon, who doesn't appear to have even tried to be polite.
   
   6. I don't see anything objectionable in the conversation about writing your own badfic to spork. (I'm not a fan of the idea myself, but I think both viewpoints are valid and the choice may be left up to personal preference.)
   
   ... I think that's all I've got for now. If anyone else can shed more light on this, or wishes to give their impressions, they should do so—especially if you were not involved. Remember Article 13: the entire community is responsible for upholding the Constitution.
   
   ~Neshomeh

They're usually small graphics that show up under messages when people decide to add them (next to each "this" there's a number saying how many were added, and you can hover over them/right click the message and check "Reactions" to see who reacted that way). From the looks of it, the process of copying the chat into a Google doc made them a lot larger than usual.

- Tomash, answering miscellaneous technical questions

It's a concept that Discord has, you can attach little emoji to posts to add lightweight agreement/disagreement/whatever. They're huge in the copy-paste- in-channel, they looked like this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tp8dps9jwk9ho8z/discord-reactions.png?dl=0

I've read through the first log. The second link seems to be permission-locked, though.

Also, what are the THIS graphics? Were those added in to highlight stuff for our benefit, or were they part of the original posts?

~Neshomeh

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1KJdkOGfxDVEbtPBv0rLO-KXNCygyxzAT22Up47l4Vw/edit#heading=h.8nkdfsmmuocp

I don't have logs from the #heavystuff channel- I don't know if someone else grabbed them. Suffice to say, it was very fractious, although I strongly object to Grimalkinii's description of it as "dogpiling"- while everyone disagreed with them and Pentagon (who was a pretty obvious troll), there were multiple times where people said "hang on, let's let them reply".

It was rather disappointing, and having a channel for angry political arguing was wearing on everyone in the server, so we dropped it.

And as to the incident in which it is alleged that I took something as an "attack on my person"? I remember no such incident, and have searched through every message Grimalkinii made on the Discord in an attempt to either find it or jog my memory. The closest I could find was in the discussion of "prejudice and -phobia", which is in the link I posted earlier.

The discussion re. writing your own badfic: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xfG-7GJNv9whz2052QgBjIOm36zznF58hkKvhc7xpII/edit#

As can be seen, there were a lot of reasonable points given too- I quote Calliope herself:

Calliope, Master Critfailer-02/21/2018
And Grim... yeah, I do see your point. I can so see how you get that, and I'm beginning to think you're kind of right. But the concept of "I need a thing to happen, how can I make it happen in a way that fits the overall arc" is something that all writers deal with - my method is "if I can't find what I need in a way that fits all the criteria needed" (which are that it has to be in a fandom both myself and the cowriter of this pair know, it has to be reasonably short, and it has to have a way to be non-combat-oriented in the takedown) "I will make the situation happen myself".

Which was, in my opinion, at least as nuanced as Grimakiini's position of:

Grimalkinii-02/21/2018
you're essentially engineering a situation so that what you want to happen can happen by writing your own fanfic and then writing a mission based on it. that's not really improving your writing in any regard.

The "she can do what she wants" started coming up not as an immediate response, but when Grimalkinii fell back to just repeating his same points without adding anything to the discussion.

(Also, Grimalkinii, if/when you read this- why did you use they/them pronouns for me consistently through your post, except in the "attack on her person" quote?)

61516 hadn't been aware that there was such thing as regulation seductive-casual dress for Space Marines, but the way the towering figure in front of him wore the immaculately-pressed robe left no doubt that this was indeed the case. Decked out in pure blue and white, perfect from the cropped blonde of his hair to the smooth curves of his calves, the Primarch of the XIIIth Legion cut an imposingly appealing figure.

Or so 61516 thought as he gazed up at Roboute Guilliman. The Primarch towered in his doorway, but didn't speak a word - or move, or do anything other than stand, with an indefinable air of waiting.

Finally 61516 couldn't bear it any longer. "Er... hi?"

Guilliman nodded fractionally, as if expecting exactly that response. "Bonjour," he said, his voice deep and resonant. "Ah am Roboute Guilliman; tell me your name."

"Er," 61516 said again. It was one thing to read about the Primarch - it was entirely different to have him looming over you with an inexplicable French accent. "I'm... 61516?"

"Ah, oui." Guilliman nodded gravely, as if ticking an item off on a mental checklist. Then, to 61516's perhaps-unreasonable surprise, he pulled out a clipboard and made an actual tick. "A very logical name. Ah assume you 'ave sixty-one thousand, five 'undred and fifteen siblings."

61516 did not, in fact, have anything of the sort, but the Primarch didn't seem inclined to wait for an answer. Scrutinizing his clipboard, he gave a satisfied nod. "Now it is time for you to tell me 'ow you feel."

"Er." 61516 looked around, but there was no escaping the bizarre conversation. "... confused?"

"Good." Another mark on the list. "And ah am feeling satisfactory. Now." Guilliman placed the clipboard down on the table with a single, perfect click. "This is, 'ow you say, the Shipfest. Ah 'ave selected you to be shipped with. You will 'ave a question."

61516 stared at him. "... what?"

For the first time, a frown creased the Primarch's brow. "That is not the question," he said, glancing at his clipboard. "Would you like another try? Essayer a nouveau??"

61516 stared at the giant figure. "... why do you have a French accent?"

Guilliman practically beamed. "That is the right question."

61516 waited a few moments. "... and?"

Guilliman shrugged, stepped fully into the room, and pulled the door to. "In matters of rrromance," he said, rolling the R to perfection, "the accent Francais is required... by the book."

---

Because dangit, with a name like that he has to have a French accent, logic or no logic.

hS